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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 03:01
phrygian phrygian is offline
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Plan: Undecided
Stats: 180/180/170 Male 6 2
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Default Muscle gain

Is it possible to build muscle while in ketosis? Given that you are in a calorie surplus and are eating adequate protein?
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 05:02
carlh_uk's Avatar
carlh_uk carlh_uk is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 247
 
Plan: Carb cycling
Stats: 225/164/155 Male 5'8
BF:~15%
Progress: 87%
Location: England, UK
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It is possible with a calorie surplus, but have heard many times in the bodybuilding community that its a lot easier to build muscle when eating more carbs. If your trying to build muscle, i cant see any reason why you would want to stay in ketosis. At the very least I would recommend having carbs around your workouts.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 08:30
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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The bodybuilding community still believes in the Positive Caloric Balance hypothesis i.e. a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. Their advice to gain muscle is: Eat more. This forum is dedicated to low carb diets and as such we're a little more informed on the subject so we would be the first to consider that advice as naive if not completely wrong.

Carbohydrates drive insulin drives fat accumulation. This fundamental principle is the simplest explanation of how we grow fat. Bodybuilders don't escape this mechanism in the least. In fact, the classical method to grow muscle is to eat more regardless of macronutrients, grow fat because of the high carb content, then cut by cutting total calories (which invariably cuts total carbs) again regardless of macronutrients all the while lifting heavy weights. In other words, even as they lift the bar i.e. exercise, they grow fatter. It's called the bulk/cut method. Do you want to grow fat? If not, then don't follow this advice.

The advice to eat more carbs comes from the fact that protein requires insulin to be used by cells. Since carbs also require insulin and more insulin would logically improve the amino acids uptake by cells, eating more carbs would then be the logical thing to do to gain more muscle. The problem with this logic is that it doesn't take into consideration insulin resistance. This builds over time such that cells simply refuse to take in any more insulin. At that point, the only thing that grows is fat tissue because it's the last tissue to become insulin resistant. It can take years like it can take weeks.

Carbohydrates serve only one purpose and that's fuel. It can't be used for repair or maintenance or any other purpose than fuel. Fat can be used for fuel, repair, maintenance and building blocks of cells, sterols production such as cholesterol and subsequently testosterone, and various tissue with the main tissue being the brain. Protein can be used for fuel, repair, maintenance and building blocks of cells and various tissue with the main tissue being muscles. Vitamins and minerals are used in every step of fuel utilization, repair, maintenance and building blocks and there are many more better alternatives than eating carbs to get those.

So yes, it's entirely possible, perhaps even easier, to grow muscle while in ketosis.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 09:14
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
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Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
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Great post M Levac!
I have long asserted that carbs are really not a necessary macronutrient..they are an energy substrates..they don't build anything.

Fats and proteins are structural materials..you build things with these compounds..enzymes, hormones, hair...that's why they are essential.

One big issue with the carb debate as it pertains to "fitness" is that the intake of carbs spares protein..Well they also spare fat!. Why would your body burn fat if you are taking in all this energy in ther form of "easily" burned carbs?

A mistake that a lot of people make when lowering their carbs is not to increase their fat intake..when that happens, precious protein is used as a fuel source instead of helping to build muscle.

I think low carb, low fat is not ideal when it comes to building muscle.

So yes, you can build muscle while in ketosis.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 09:23
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
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Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
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BTW, in regards to Mlevacs point about insulin resistance..

I am the shining example of it.. during my years as a bodybuilder starting in the 80's, I took in over 400 grams of carbs a day..brown rice, whole wheat pasta,granola,yams, baked potatoes..blah, blah.

I bulked up alot...I was pretty fat. I looked buff in clothes, but when the shirt came off...oooh boy.

I was always telling my peers I was going through a bulking phase. And I always felt stuffed, bloated and miserable, but I had to keep slamming those carbs!

Well now that I am 40+, I now have insulin resistance..the constant bathing of my cells with insulin has shut down my insuin sensitivity ..I took a glucose tolerant test and it took 78 units of insulin to lower the 100 grams of dextrose that I drank..

So my pancreas is just pumping out the insulin to try and lower that blood sugar..poor guy.

If it would've stayed high..type-2 diabetes

All I can say, is keep those carbs to a limit, if you take them in at all.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 11:23
carlh_uk's Avatar
carlh_uk carlh_uk is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 247
 
Plan: Carb cycling
Stats: 225/164/155 Male 5'8
BF:~15%
Progress: 87%
Location: England, UK
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Martin: I dont know where you got your view on the bodybuilding community but its completly wrong. The majority of bodybuilders very carefully watch macronutrient breakdowns and calories, they dont just get fat.

"This forum is dedicated to low carb diets and as such we're a little more informed on the subject" - You couldnt be more narrow minded and wrong you are on the subject.

You seem very stuck in your theories, so ill just say that bodybuilders are the experts in adding lean muscle, and trimming off fat that comes with it. The majority use low carb diets to cut down their bodyfat, then reintroduce as many carbs as they need to when building more muscle.

Feel free to try adding muscle while in ketosis and not in a calorie surplus - you will be wasting your time.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 11:43
carlh_uk's Avatar
carlh_uk carlh_uk is offline
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Posts: 247
 
Plan: Carb cycling
Stats: 225/164/155 Male 5'8
BF:~15%
Progress: 87%
Location: England, UK
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I have found you two articles by the pro natural bodybuilder layne norton. If you think you are more informed than him your welcome to look up his credentials.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne44.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne36.htm
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 14:36
phrygian phrygian is offline
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Plan: Undecided
Stats: 180/180/170 Male 6 2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlh_uk
Feel free to try adding muscle while in ketosis and not in a calorie surplus - you will be wasting your time.


Do you agree with the others though that it is possible to gain muscle while in ketosis and IN a calorie surplus? Should this be any harder than on a traditional diet higher and carbs and not in ketosis?
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 15:00
carlh_uk's Avatar
carlh_uk carlh_uk is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 247
 
Plan: Carb cycling
Stats: 225/164/155 Male 5'8
BF:~15%
Progress: 87%
Location: England, UK
Default

Its possible, but its by no means optimal. If you are interested in adding muscle instead of cutting fat, it may be worth heading over to the bodybuilding forums. Lowering carbs to cut fat is a good idea, but when your trying to add quality muscle, carbs are your friend. Too add muscle you need to be in a calorie surplus, and to cut fat you need to be in a deficit - so you can only do one thing at a time. Keep your carbs fairly low and with optimal timing around your workouts, and you will add minimal fat as long as your calories arent stupidly high. Check out CKD or carb cycling.

Last edited by carlh_uk : Thu, Oct-02-08 at 15:10.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Oct-02-08, 20:11
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

You win, Carl. Congratulations. But just in case, check out www.lowcarb.ca, it's full of information about nutritional science.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Oct-03-08, 12:05
LessLiz's Avatar
LessLiz LessLiz is offline
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Posts: 6,938
 
Plan: who knows
Stats: 337/204/180 Female 67 inches
BF:100% pure
Progress: 85%
Location: Pacific NW
Default

I built quite a bit of muscle in my arms while in ketosis. We can argue about whether I was eating a "caloric excess" mostly because that term is subject to interpretation and my interpretation is probably more in line with Martin's and less in line with others.

Some people will always believe gym lore. Some people will always believe in crystal power, too.
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Oct-03-08, 14:38
carlh_uk's Avatar
carlh_uk carlh_uk is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 247
 
Plan: Carb cycling
Stats: 225/164/155 Male 5'8
BF:~15%
Progress: 87%
Location: England, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessLiz
I built quite a bit of muscle in my arms while in ketosis. We can argue about whether I was eating a "caloric excess" mostly because that term is subject to interpretation and my interpretation is probably more in line with Martin's and less in line with others.

Some people will always believe gym lore. Some people will always believe in crystal power, too.


Subject to interpretation? Its simple maths, if your eating more calories than you expend in a day, your in a caloric excess.

Gym lore? crystal power? It seems a lot of people just believe what they are told by anyone. I believe what is proven - by reliable sources.

You say you added muscle on your arms, did you take measurements? if not, are u sure you didn't just lose bodyfat making your arms appear more defined?
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Oct-03-08, 14:56
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlh_uk
I believe what is proven - by reliable sources.


Enlighten us then. Show us those reliable sources so we can judge for ourselves. I'm sure the original poster would like to be as informed as you since he did ask the question.

Last edited by M Levac : Fri, Oct-03-08 at 15:02.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Oct-03-08, 15:04
carlh_uk's Avatar
carlh_uk carlh_uk is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 247
 
Plan: Carb cycling
Stats: 225/164/155 Male 5'8
BF:~15%
Progress: 87%
Location: England, UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
Enlighten us then. Show us those reliable sources so we can judge for ourselves.


For what exactly? I dont believe there was any context to the conversation when we spoke of what people believe. I will try and give accurate information where I can, im not just trying to be an ass disagreeing with people.

A lot of people take the information from these forums when considering their diet choices, i believe its only right to provide them with correct information. I just dont like to see people wasting their time when they are putting effort into improving themselves.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Oct-03-08, 15:07
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlh_uk
For what exactly? I dont believe there was any context to the conversation when we spoke of what people believe. I will try and give accurate information where I can, im not just trying to be an ass disagreeing with people.

A lot of people take the information from these forums when considering their diet choices, i believe its only right to provide them with correct information. I just dont like to see people wasting their time when they are putting effort into improving themselves.


From my perspective, you are the sole source of the information you post in this thread. yet you claim to have read what you know elsewhere. Please provide those other sources so we can judge for ourselves. By doing so, you will discharge yourself of the responsibility of the potential consequences of said information. You will also relieve yourself of the burden of proof of what you claim.
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