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  #197   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 00:52
TheCaveman's Avatar
TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Plan: Angry Paleo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JandLsMom
Could you give any links that show what your saying above?


Prepare to be ignored!
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  #198   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 00:53
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
. It is going to be strange to never buy fruit or veggies. While I have done that before (during "induction" times), I have always resorted to "adding them back in" later. Funny thing is, in the past, when I didn't think about what I was eating, I would gravitate toward fatty meat and cheese and eggs and never had any fruits and veggies in my diet. Only thing is, I would have bread products and such too.


i noticed the same thing! Especially when i am LCing i tend to want all the meat and eggs and cheese and practically have to force myself to eat the 3 cups of veggies Atkins talks about for induction. Truth be told i only end up eating 1-2 cups of veggies a day most day, i rarely eat 3! Its not that i dont like veggies, i just never feel like having them ..interesting! Then when im NOT on LC...i sometimes go months without veggies or fruit..lol. i end up eating meat, eggs, cheese, SUGAR and STarches instead...i never put much thought into this! hmmm
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  #199   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 00:57
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TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Plan: Angry Paleo
Stats: 375/205/180 Male 6'3"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
But, it is not necessary to teach this way of eating, it's just become customary to do so. I'm sure you can think of a lot of other examples of this... outdated social mores, etc.


So why hasn't vegetable eating become outdated?
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  #200   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:09
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
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Meat is dissolved quickly by the hydrochloric acid your stomach is optimised to produce over 75% of its surface area. Vegetation stimulates the production of certain enzymes which are not quickly made and come from about 25%. The HCl is easy to turn on and turn off, the enzyme systems are not easy, and it is one of the reasons the mixed diet person experiences hunger- the stomach is busy making more digestive juice.

The bit about meat taking a long time and veggies a short time to digest is an ancient fallacy promulgated by vegetarians. Don't believe everything written in some book, there is no law against writing fiction.

This is very basic physiology. Any textbook gives the time of transit of food in the gut. NOTHING takes 12 hrs, if so why would you want to eat lunch a few hours after brekkie? and dinner after lunch?

In high school, I joined the boxing team to learn a bit of skill and get the other kids to stop messing with me- (it worked like a charm). Our coach would feed us a plain rare steak, with fat on, but with no water about one hour before every match. He said it took 45 minutes to leave the stomach, and fifteen to be absorbed into the blood- thus providing a lot of energy for the bout- he was not wrong, we won almost every match. This was in 1949, well before the diet-nazis had taken over. Obviously you would not want to be hit in the gut if there was anything still undigested in your stomach, and boxers always go for the gut.
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  #201   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:13
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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thanks for the explanation Bear! By the way how much water do you drink daily? Do you drink it right from the tap? Also, do you eat fish and seafood like shrimp, crab etc?
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  #202   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:18
theBear theBear is offline
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I have said- I will eat any animal, and I love seafood. I drink about 2 to 4 litres of rainwater a day. Our rain is very pure, we do not have any air pollution in the southern hemisphere because there is virtually no nuclear south of the equator.
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  #203   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:18
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PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
So why hasn't vegetable eating become outdated?
Perhaps it will. But, as I said, in some parts of the world it couldn't, or they would starve. But, where meat is available, eating veggies may become outdated. However, if there is demand (or advertising) for them, probably not. I mean what is the point of this question anyway? I think the answer is pretty obvious. How 'bout asking why some new mothers give their children Oreo cookies with Pepsi?

I think perhaps a hundred years or so ago, people who lived on farms were much more focused on animal husbandry. They rendered pig fat and drank milk straight from the cow and thought nothing of this WOE. I don't know how many veggies they ate. I think that is something that may have been pushed on people only in the last several decades, perhaps by the food industry. Think about how vegetable oils were pushed to replace butter back in the 50s. Or were you not aware of this little invention called television?

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Fri, Mar-03-06 at 02:09.
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  #204   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:31
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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Bear,
You have given me alot to think about. I love reading and researching. I was considering going on the neanderthin/paleo type diet which includes meats, eggs, veggies, fruit, nuts and seeds. I read "The Paleo Diet" by Cordain and i read "Neanderthin" by Audette. The thing that has stopped my thus far from going that route is not wanting to give up my butter, cream and cheese, which i love!! I do enjoy fruit once in a while, but could do without veggies. I will think on everything you have said. Maybe i can go without fruit for life, if anything it probably just causes a spike in insulin and would stall weight loss anyway!! I am going to seriously consider your way of eating. Unfortunately i am not a chef, and don't know much about spices. Would you be willing to recommend what type of spices you like to put on what meats?? Thanks again.
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  #205   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:41
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Karenmarie,

There is a recipe thread on this paleo forum that has quite a few meat dishes (with good spices to use). Hope this helps.
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  #206   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:42
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JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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Bear,
Something just dawned on me and it blew my mind. You eat zero carb. You have eaten that way for 47 years! You are not losing weight. So, does your body just naturally go to the weight its supposed to be at and stay there?? Atkins and the other LC diets teach low carb intake (20 a day) while your LOSING weight, then they teach you to UP your carb intake slowly and get to the point of eating around 100 carbs a day in order to maintain your weight. I am surprised that you can continue eating no carbs after you lost the weight? Can you explain this? Do you know why these LC diets teach us to up carb levels after we are at our goal weight? i always assumed it was because if you didn't up your carbs you would wither away to nothing.
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  #207   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:44
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
Karenmarie,

There is a recipe thread on this paleo forum that has quite a few meat dishes (with good spices to use). Hope this helps.


oh, thanks for that PaleoDeano, i will check it out!
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  #208   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 01:53
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JandLsMom
Bear, I am surprised that you can continue eating no carbs after you lost the weight? Can you explain this? Do you know why these LC diets teach us to up carb levels after we are at our goal weight? i always assumed it was because if you didn't up your carbs you would wither away to nothing.
Check out Bear's post above (post #189).
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  #209   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 02:02
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JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
If you ingest more than you need, the body discards the excess- quite different than is the case with carbs.




aHHHH!!! thats what your talking about from post 189 deano? i SEE it now!! the funny thing is i had quoted from this same post earlier, i guess i didnt really comprehend that part till i went looking at it again!! WOW!!!!! this is all so intriguing!
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  #210   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 02:16
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
if you ingest less calories than you are burning, you will lose muscle mass as well as bodyfat
If you don't eat enough, you will "wither away"!
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  #211   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 02:20
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
If you don't eat enough, you will "wither away"!


right so in other words, you have to eat more calories than you burn or you WILL wither away..lol ...i get it..i get it now!! so its not about upping carbs to maintain like the LC diets teach, its about upping calories in order to maintain! thats interesting. So in other words, someone can also live 47 years on atkins induction without every upping carbs!! but they must eat enough calories!! am i right? i think i totally understand, sorry for being a bit of a dunce sometimes, it takes me awhile to GRASP all this stuff! So wonder why in the atkins book it suggests not staying on induction for more than 6 mos??
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  #212   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 02:27
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Nobody can live without food (although some monks have tried, I think). You have to replace what you excrete. Just your basic metabolism at rest is using up resources that you must replace. High carb eating teaches that you must have carbs or your muscles will "waste away" from being used for energy (via gluconeogenesis). This is such bunk, but is taught all the time. They teach that burning fat for fuel is like burning "dirty gasoline" in your car. They actually say this! It is ridiculous!
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  #213   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 02:33
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JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
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Location: Illinois
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thanks for all the answers paleodeano!! i am off to bed now! I am becoming addicted to this thread...lol
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  #214   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 03:28
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
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The truth is, there is no excuse to eat any carbs at all. Your body has a built-in fat level it will maintain. Without dietary carbs it is very hard to store fat. All dietary fat must be burned, there is no mechanism to store it.

Thus, a person whose bodyfat level is above their 'fat-o-stat' set-point will lose/burn body fat no matter how many calories they eat- i.e., it is not necessary to restrict your food, eat as much as feels good. The body has a limit to the amount of fat you can eat and digest at one sitting, determined by the bile, and once you have eaten that amount, you will stop, but can still eat the lean. Forcing things will work like drinking like castor or mineral oil- it is purging.

Once you reach your proper level, which varies a bit from person to person, but is around 11-15% for men and 18-23% for women, then you only have to eat as many calories as you burn- or a bit more- to stay the same. Only a reduction below daily needs will cause a change. Extra calories without any carbs will not fatten you. To get 'ripped' like a bodybuilder (>5% bf) is very hard, and requires both discipline and a calorie reduction.

Atkins' was on the right road but some of his ideas were wrong- he made up his diet to appeal to people used to eating a lot of vegetation, he couldn't tell the truth that all carbs are the enemy of the genetically obese. I was on my routine for years before his book came out, and I pinned him as a diet-wuss. There is no such things as 'induction' in dietary terms- you eat what you eat and your body accepts what it is, and adapts. Most really heavy people cannot lose the excess body fat they carry if they eat as Atkins suggests.
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  #215   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 04:57
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Ayustar Ayustar is offline
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Plan: Human Experimentation
Stats: 170/100/105 Female 4'10
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Location: London, Ontario, Canada
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Thebear, I agree with what you mean, if you do 'Induction' as it were, and reduce carbs to zero completely, as in starting out at zero carb instead of the normal allotted 20, you will be just fine. It is going to hit you like a ton of bricks, but you will be just fine. There is no reason to have this 20 gram limit when you can just reduce to zero going meat and egg. Is that correct?

As you stated about the fat/bile thing, just like anyone else, when I consume a lot of fat I start feeling sick. At that point, or even before you just kinda of stop. Either hunger is gone or you can't eat anymore fat. Either you will keep eating, something that doesn't have that high of a fat content or not eat at all after that. That is a normal reaction, I think. Your body's way of telling you "no more". I think that maybe right.

I try not to eat any carbs. Sometimes I a very small amount. I am trying to get them to zero. I don't feel fatigued at all either. I actually feel better going no carb at all. I wouldn't want to switch.
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  #216   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 08:18
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TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Plan: Angry Paleo
Stats: 375/205/180 Male 6'3"
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Location: Sacramento, CA
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Oh boy. Bear, thanks for coming around, but currently I'm perplexed as to why you don't seem to understand any question I ask you, and I know you won't be offended if I bow out now, with a small summary of my thoughts for everyone else.

Most of what Bear states contradicts what I've read on the subjects he presents, and maybe I'm not reading the right stuff. Besides that hermetic book he mentioned, I HAVE read everything he's cited. While that is a very small list, he DOES present a level of understanding we've seen before on most of the other paleo message groups and forums. You know, drive-by posters with much pronunciamento and little reasoning. Little evidence and much namecalling. We used to see them about once a month. Maybe theBear was one of them; I don't know.

I hope this section of the forums returns to more vigorous debate soon, in a time where we can hold ourselves to a higher standard of rigor than this thread.
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  #217   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 09:27
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
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Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
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Location: Maryland, US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
But you are referring to the stools of "hunter-gatherers" that came AFTER "hunters".

I think it is possible that we would have focused our energy on hunting game if it was available... and I think it was available for a long time. Only after the game began to get scarce did we resort to gathering as well. You have to remember that apples back in those days were about as sweet as the leaves on the same tree. How many times have YOU picked leaves off of a tree and eaten them? I am only saying that eventually we HAD to start eating everything we could to survive... then, we became "hunter-gatherers" and vegetation started showing up in our stools.

I don't know how many times I need to repeat this "theory"... and it is only a theory, just as your statements are only theories. And, if one adopts this theory, they still have to figure out WHEN we made the transition (different in different parts of the planet for sure). If it was real recent, then Bear is correct, and we have not been able to adapt. BUT, if it was much longer ago, then Bear is wrong and we have had time to adapt to SOME carbs in our diet. I agree that excess insulin is VERY damaging to our bodies. Just how much we can handle is up for debate. HUGE surges produced by eating straight sugar (from processed food) is ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE as most of us will agree.

In "Life Without Bread" they point out that northern Europeans went through a recent ice age, and that they have only been eating non-animal food for the past 2000 years. I don't think that is enough time to properly adapt to this food. In other parts of the world, as the book does point out, there was longer time to adapt. The book does say we are in a transition to a new diet, but it makes clear that a lot of us cannot handle this new diet at this time.

TIME is the critical factor here. How much time have we been eating carbs, and how much time is it going to take to adapt? Although some would say we have been eating carbs all along. Some think we can eat no animal products (vegans) and be the healthiest. I don't have ANY answers (as Bear seems to think he does), but just find the possibilities intriguing.

And, I still think my cat theory deserves some serious consideration!
So you're qualifying neanderthals, and Paleolithics as hunter gatherers? Just what specific time period are you talking about when man ate meat exclusively? And where was this? If you're talking about aboriginal "dream time", is this prearchaeic? Because they found vegetation in aboriginal coprolites, too.

Archaeologist think that even in the "hunter" society there was foraging going on at the same time.

Do you have any sources for your assumptions?
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  #218   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 13:03
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Duparc Duparc is offline
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Plan: self-designed
Stats: 216/189/190 Male tad under 6'
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Kirriemuir, Scotland
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Thanks TheCaveman! The only features that seem to differentiate us is diplomacy with possibly a little patience, or should it be impatience? I look forward to reading your contributions on another thread.
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  #219   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 14:06
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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TheBear, I appreciate that you speak from personal experience and what you speak of is based on evidence you gathered through time and trial and error. For me, I felt my best and lost weight the best on the 109 days I ate only meat and fat. I wish I had never strayed for I would be healthier, leaner, have more energy and most likely be happier had I continued. I strayed and returned to my addictive cycle of carbs and sugar and proceeded to gain large amounts of the weight back. You have rekindled my resolve and have inspired me to return to the WOE which gave me huge amounts of energy (I was climbing 2000+ stairs each morning during a 2 hour walk to train for climbing Mt. Fuji at the time), melted body fat away, cleared my skin, made me strong and stabilized my moods and hormones (TOM was easier and more comfortable than ever before). Thank you to the person who guided me to this thread, and thank you Bear for helping to get me back onto my path towards health.

Also, your chicken recipe looked great. Do you ever make meat or fish jerky and do you have other recipes to share?
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  #220   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 14:33
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shushu shushu is offline
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Posts: 282
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 185/163/145 Female 5'5''
BF:
Progress: 55%
Location: California
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Very interesting posts, I will be thinking over all this new information (it is so opposite of everything I have heard and read about), but I am open, I know from studying history how wrong some beliefs can be.
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  #221   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 17:54
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
So you're qualifying neanderthals, and Paleolithics as hunter gatherers? Just what specific time period are you talking about when man ate meat exclusively? And where was this? If you're talking about aboriginal "dream time", is this prearchaeic? Because they found vegetation in aboriginal coprolites, too.

Archaeologist think that even in the "hunter" society there was foraging going on at the same time.

Do you have any sources for your assumptions?
First of all, I have stated that this is all just theory. I was only trying to point out that it would be totally logical that IF game was abundant, that humans (or any animal that had the abilities - physical &/or mental) would choose hunting (and, of course, eating) other animals over ANY OTHER WOE (vegan lions being the exception, but their numbers would have been small, I'm pretty sure).

It may be that 1.7896 million years ago our human ancestors began eating nothing but snails (mainly cuz they liked the taste). Then 1.6844 million years ago, all snails on earth vanished suddenly (for reasons only gods can understand), so humans went back to eating roots, which is all they ever ate before. Then, exactly 20,000 years ago, humans got sick of eating roots and began eating a little bit of meat and said "boy this stuff tastes good!... please pass the sea salt!".

I DON'T KNOW... and neither do you or anyone else that lives today (except possibly Duparc - but he's obviously not going to tell anyone!). BUT... I think if one made an educated guess they could try and piece together a LOGICAL picture of the way things were. No, sorry, I don't have any links at this time, but from many things I have read, it seems like a logical theory what I have stated (and what I have heard).

Aside from that, I really don't care that much what they ate. I know that the best health I have had is when I ate lots of animal food (especially animal fat), and I am not afraid (or closed minded) enough to try this WOE out again. If it doesn't fit into any Bible stories or whatever!... well, then sue me! I'll just wipe off the drippings from my smile and see you in court! My cats will be with me though, I must warn you!

This thread is gettin' to some people, huh?

Where is Gordon Lightfoot when you need him?!

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Fri, Mar-03-06 at 21:55.
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  #222   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 18:07
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
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I sometimes make beef jerky. It can be an excellent snack, but lacks fat and is therefore not a complete food, some supplemental fat is necessary. It can be made into pemmican, a complete food, by adding fat. The instructions are pretty simple, take lean (heavy fat marbling slows drying, and can lead to spoilage) meat, slice to about 1/8" thickness, and dry with heat at 104F (40C) max. This is very important any higher will cause the loss of nutrients, lower will not do the job quickly enough. Never use any salt or other additive, just clean, fresh lean raw meat. I have used a gas oven with a pilot light and the door left ajar, but you must check it empty with an accurate thermometer to be sure it is not too hot. If no pilot, such as in an electric oven, use an incandescent lamp, try different wattages to select the right size. Jerky is dry to crumble in about 8 hours. To make pemmican, powder the jerky and add an equal weight of, not hot (melted) tallow made from rendering beef suet. This is a greasy mass and is not really very palatable as is, but can be added to warm water to make a sort of soup. Jerky should be very dry and not leathery like the commercial junk- which means it is still too wet and will spoil. Pemmican can be kept for up to 30 years so long as it is kept sealed away from air. More information on jerky and pemmican can be found in either Fat of the Land or The US Army Arctic Survival manual 1944, by Stefansson.

I am sorry some respondents cannot seem to accept that I am not on any kind of agenda/promotion when I describe my experiences. I tell only what it is like, and I sometimes refer to things I have read. Perhaps it would be helpful for me to post a short list of pertinent articles I have collected from journals over the years. I will do that, so whomever is interested can go to the library and look them up, or subscribe to the online versions. They are mostly studies of metabolism and one very important one on the proposal of insulin as the prime cause of coronary artery disease.

The simple answer is embodied in the responses of those who have actually gone onto a zero carb regime and kept to it for long enough to become fully adapted. All the 'research' in the world is not going to change what is true and what is not- this is best determined right down at the coal face, by following the path and observing the results

The unfortunate fact is that much of the published research is badly flawed, the result of carefully selecting data (and falsifying data) and asking prepared questions so as to get a desired result- both due to incompetent training in school, and also for financial rewards. A large body of research, the sort which was used to support the low fat diet fiasco was funded by big agriculture. The important products of big ag are the mass produced, low labour cereal grains, oilseed and sugar, not animal products.

Meat and dairy are very labour intensive, and do not give a high profit return to the primary producers, the best profit is at the end of the line- at retail, the butcher does pretty well.. Thus, there is a high incentive to reduce animal fat, increase vegetable oil consumption and get people to eat grain and sugar. Similarly, the medical profession does not profit from healthy people, so there is no strong motive in the industry to support the truth.

Although many doctors are primarily motivated to help people, still, a good income is always important. The zero carb diet is perfect for diabetics, however that would cut out the need for constant supervision by a physician, and eliminate the need for a very profitable drug, insulin. The drug industry, well known for placing profit in front of any sense of proper conduct, funds a powerful lobby to the medical profession.
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  #223   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 18:28
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lynnp lynnp is offline
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Plan: My Version of M/E
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Thanks Bear for the jerky information and the wisdom of your years living the life of which you speak. I, for one, appreciate it more than you can know. You are making a valuable contribution to those of us who have experienced for ourselves, at least in small part and for a short time, the benefits of the lifestyle you are living. You are an inspiration to me and I appreciate the intentions behind sharing your life with us here.
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  #224   ^
Old Fri, Mar-03-06, 19:38
Fauve Fauve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnp
Thanks Bear for the jerky information and the wisdom of your years living the life of which you speak. I, for one, appreciate it more than you can know. You are making a valuable contribution to those of us who have experienced for ourselves, at least in small part and for a short time, the benefits of the lifestyle you are living. You are an inspiration to me and I appreciate the intentions behind sharing your life with us here.


Very well said! This is exactly the way I feel too. Thanks Bear!
I was born and raised in Belgium, and I am used to eat mainly meat. It will be easy for me to take the next step and eat only meat. In fact, that's exactly what I have been doing these last few days since Bear first post, and I feel great. No energy is wasted on difficult digestion.
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