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  #106   ^
Old Wed, Feb-03-16, 16:53
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Plan: very low carb real food
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkloots
Oh my. While I'm perpetually grateful for the abundance of links to studies, evidence, case histories, etc. furnished by all the knowledgeable people on this forum, I think I'm in IO (Information Overload) right now.



Me too Barbara. I am lucky to have figured out what works for me and I no longer seem to have the patience or ability to comprehend all these details and explanations. The world of politically correct nutrition strikes me as so off base as to be bordering on criminal. To keep my sanity I just concentrate on what I know I have to do for myself. I let those with greater fortitude or intelligence battle it out on the front lines. I'm satisfied staying in my cocoon of self-centered doing what's best for me.

Jean
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  #107   ^
Old Wed, Feb-03-16, 18:24
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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One of the benefits of this forum is that we have a rotation of excellent posters, new and regulars, who summarize much of this information. It helps to key me in on that information about which I'd like to get more detail. With the ever-increasing abundance of information, it's an indication of philosophical changes based an increasing body of new knowledge and transition of beliefs. That's a positive trend.
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  #108   ^
Old Thu, Feb-04-16, 05:14
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
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Dr. Eenfeldt comment:

Quote:
Here’s an interesting and complicated new post from Dr. Michael Eades. He argues that – apart from bad carbs – one of the main drivers of the obesity epidemic may be vegetable oils:

Dr. Eades: Will the new Dietary Guidelines make us even fatter?

I’m not sure what to make of this complex idea. If vegetable oils reduce insulin resistance, via the “FADH2 to NADH ratio”, why would that necessarily increase obesity? Couldn’t it just as well have the opposite effect?

However, vegetable oil consumption has risen to unprecedented – an evolutionarily abnormal – levels, coinciding with the obesity epidemic. There are certainly plenty of reasons to treat them with caution. And don’t heat them.


http://www.dietdoctor.com/why-veget...y-cause-obesity
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  #109   ^
Old Thu, Feb-04-16, 07:40
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teaser teaser is offline
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Quote:
I’m not sure what to make of this complex idea. If vegetable oils reduce insulin resistance, via the “FADH2 to NADH ratio”, why would that necessarily increase obesity? Couldn’t it just as well have the opposite effect?


From reading Hyperlipid, I think the idea is that this reduced insulin resistance makes people more prone to reactive hypoglycemia--so you're hungrier, sooner, after a meal. Ending up in a snacking pattern, as opposed to a smaller number of discreet meals. This is what generally happens in rodent models of dietary obesity. Some studies have narrowed it down to polyunsaturated fat--various types of fattening diet have been shown to be fattening for mice if the diet contains 8 percent omega 6 fatty acid, but not if it contains 1 percent. And a supposedly non-fattening low fat chow diet will make the mice fat if it contains that 8 percent omega 6.

There are also studies showing that with a ketogenic diet, both rodents and humans will show higher ketones with a polyunsaturated fat ketogenic diet than with a saturated fat ketogenic diet. Peter suggests that this is due to a lack of the glucose sparing effect of physiological insulin resistance. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, if you can sustain a good ketosis, hypo should be much of a problem.
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  #110   ^
Old Fri, Feb-05-16, 09:44
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
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Very interesting, teaser, though I may be reaching my own overload! I guess the take home message is to (continue to) give give preference to natural animal fast over vegetable fats. Bacon! Butter! Cheese! I can do that.
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  #111   ^
Old Sat, Feb-06-16, 05:47
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Progress: 134%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
Very interesting, teaser, though I may be reaching my own overload! I guess the take home message is to (continue to) give give preference to natural animal fast over vegetable fats. Bacon! Butter! Cheese! I can do that.


Which is 180 degrees from what Walter Willett and others said in the recent Fat Summit...only plant-based oils, animal fats will kill you
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  #112   ^
Old Sat, Feb-06-16, 09:09
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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Right. Because they got that whole thing so correct for the past 50 decades. (Thanks again, Ancel Keys!)

So we should believe them as they try to cover their butts on all the bad, dangerous, murderous, even, advice they have given for so many years.
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  #113   ^
Old Wed, Apr-27-16, 12:42
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Maybe our problem on this thread is that if even the government experts don't know what the Dietary Guidelines say, how are we suppose to figure them out?

The brilliant Adele Hite returns! (Can't pick a favorite writer on nutrition, Denise Minger and Adele Hite both make me happy to be on the LC side. )

https://eathropology.com/2016/04/27...lease-stand-up/

Will the Real Dietary Guidelines please Stand Up?

Quote:
I don’t say this very often (or ever). I was wrong. I think.

Here I’ve been laboring under the assumption that the 2015 Dietary Guidelines tell the American public to eat a diet lower in fat (because we eat “too much” of it now) and higher in carbohydrate (especially from whole grains like whole wheat–because we don’t eat “enough” of those now), to eat less salt, and to “eat as little dietary cholesterol as possible.”

But according to a document recently released from a source at the Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion (CNPP) that isn’t what the Guidelines say. Or at least not exactly. Maybe.

The good folks at CNPP were asked to respond to Kris Gunnar’s list of “20 Mainstream Nutrition Myths (Debunked by Science)” with the idea being that the Guidelines are about as “mainstream” as nutrition advice gets. The hope was that, if the good folks at CNPP could explain why their advice is ostensibly “backed by science” and yet is “debunked by science,” we would all sleep a little better at night, even if we still insisted on eating bacon and eggs in the morning. The good folks at CNPP rose to the challenge and cleared things right up. But, to quote the inimitable if soporific Crosby, Stills and Nash, “just beneath the surface of the mud, there’s more mud. Surprise.”

Below, I’ve restated their responses as dietary guidance arranged in an order that I found amusing. The number of the corresponding “Myth” from Kris Gunnars is given as well, so that those of you with split screens or dual monitors can play along at home.

According to the good folks at CNPP, the 2015 Dietary Guidelines for Americans: do not recommend Americans eat a diet low in total fats or high in carbohydrates, particularly from grains. (Myth 1)
do not encourage eating low-fat foods. (Myth 12)
do not suggest avoiding saturated fat.(Myth 16)1
do not say saturated fat raises LDL cholesterol. (Myth 6)2
do not suggest Americans should avoid egg yolks, nor do they suggest that dietary cholesterol is linked to heart disease. (Myth 4)3
do not suggest eating red meat raises risk of disease. (Myth 13)4
do not say seed and vegetable oils lower cholesterol levels. (Myth 20)5
do not recommend the population restrict sodium intake (Myth 2)6
acknowledge there may be more to weight management and diet-related diseases than calories in-calories out. (Myth 15) 7
do not state sugar is harmful. (Myth 19)8

I know what you’re thinking. Adele’s mind has finally blown a gasket from reading all those big words they have in grad school. I’m not going to argue that point, but you can check the CNPP’s response for yourself right here.

This response also acknowledges that current scientific evidence regarding the reduction of full-fat dairy is contradictory (Myth 10) and that a variety of eating patterns can produce weight loss (Myth 8). It also says that 3-5 cups of coffee a day can be part of a healthy diet (Myth 7)–hallafreakinlujah– but whole wheat products? Meh (Myth 5).

I can see the helpful public health messages now: You should not avoid egg yolks, but you should eat as little dietary cholesterol as possible, even though dietary cholesterol consumption is not linked to heart disease. You don’t need to choose low-fat foods, just choose fat-free or low-fat milk, yogurt, and cheese even though it might not actually help you avoid chronic disease . You should shift to lower sodium consumption without restricting your intake of sodium.

What’s going on here? Good question. Perhaps the good folks at CNPP didn’t actually read the Dietary Guidelines this time around. Who, except for me, has that kind of time? Or maybe they had a hard time finding them. Once you get to the health.gov/dietaryguidelines/ site, you have to click through 3 menus or links before you get to the actual guidelines (try it), which are a swarm of footnotes and “see more” hyperlinks. Even Marion Nestle complained about how hard all those “annoying drop-down boxes” are to navigate.

It’s possible the good folks at CNPP just assumed that the other good folks over at DHHS–responsible for Guidelines online labyrinth–were paying attention so they didn’t have to. Or maybe it means that it’s actually really hard to get words to say what you want them to say without them saying other things that you don’t want them to say.

And this is especially difficult when you are asked to make sweeping recommendations based on a weak scientific evidence base that both supports and contradicts past guidance, which you can’t contradict even when you can’t support it, because, then what? No wonder the good folks at CNPP are having a hard time getting their story straight. To tell the truth, I have a lot of sympathy for the message-makers there at the USDA. We created the Dietary Guidelines 35 years ago assuming zero potential negative consequences. True, the scientific evidence didn’t strongly support the recommendations, but whatever. Whether they followed the recommendations or not, hey, the health trajectory of Americans couldn’t get any worse, could it?

We knew the Guidelines would significantly impact the food industry, but that could only be a good thing, right? And we meant for Guidelines to set the direction for nutrition research, but since science is only about facts and never about politics or funding, any errors or biases in our original rationale would be quickly discovered and corrected, no?

Now it seems pretty clear that we might have spent a little more time thinking through the whole “Let’s make sweeping dietary recommendations that are meant to apply to every single American alive over the age of 2 as a method of preventing every single major chronic disease known to humankind “ thing before shrugging our shoulders and saying “Oh, no worries. It will all work out.” Now the folks at the USDA have used up their wishes and are left trying to stuff the genie back in the bottle with nothing but semantics and poor website design. Will the real Dietary Guidelines please stand up? If only they had a leg to stand on. ************************************************************************ ***
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  #114   ^
Old Wed, Apr-27-16, 17:58
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Plan: LC--Atkins
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It must be particularly astonishing to the bureaucrats at the USDA (or anywhere for that matter) that the American people actually DID WHAT THEY TOLD THEM TO DO. When The People (aided and abetted by the food industry) backed off on eggs, quit eating butter, cut out the fat everywhere they could, and dived into the healthy whole grains for breakfast, lunch, and dinner...well, hello, Diabesity!

Let's take what the government says with, um, a grain of salt? We can use more salt in our diets, right?
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  #115   ^
Old Wed, Apr-27-16, 18:12
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Location: Twin Cities, MN
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I am enjoying her wit and wisdom while eating my dinner of a small salad with high fat dressing, the last of the sausage and bacon mini-quiches, and a baked pork chop rolled in pork rinds for crispness, Janet.

Thanks for the good read!
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  #116   ^
Old Thu, Apr-28-16, 06:02
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Carnivore & LowOx
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Since making great changes in my diet I have found I feel the inflammatory effects of vegetable oils right away; my cheeks feel hot and I get queasy.

I did not notice this reaction when I first started Atkins and began enjoying mayo again, but as I have eliminated problem foods, I notice the bad ones, more.

And it has been shown that rodent studies don't always pan out when humans try them. If they fed people the same rodent chow, we might get somewhere.
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  #117   ^
Old Sat, Dec-03-16, 05:53
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
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Yet again, the BMJ and two independent expert reviews, continue to stand behind the science in Nina Teicholz's 2015 critique of the US DAG.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/bmj-stan...tary-guidelines

Quote:
Here’s another victory for science over dogma. Today, the British Medical Journey has again decided to stand behind science writer Nina Teicholz’ peer-reviewed study from 2015, in which the conclusion was that the American dietary guidelines were founded on a weak scientific foundation, and still fail to be up-to-date with the best science.

Teicholz’ article was heavily criticized by old-school scientists – and 180 angry ones even demanded that the BMJ should retract it. After two independent experts reviewed it again, they have concluded that it is “within the realm of scientific debate”:

We stand by Teicholz’s article with its important critique of the advisory committee’s processes for reviewing the evidence, and we echo her conclusion: ‘Given the ever-increasing toll of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, and the failure of existing strategies to make inroads in fighting these diseases, there is an urgent need to provide nutritional advice based on sound science.’
– Fiona Godlee, BMJ Editor in Chief

The BMJ: Press Release: Independent Experts Find No Grounds for Retraction of the BMJ Article on Dietary Guidelines

http://www.bmj.com/company/wp-conte...-correction.pdf



That press release is rather stunning in its bluntness!

Quote:
Dr Fiona Godlee, The BMJ’s Editor in chief said: “We stand by Teicholz’s article with its important critique of the advisory committee’s processes for reviewing the evidence, and we echo her conclusion: ‘Given the ever increasing toll of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease, and the failure of existing strategies to make inroads in fighting these diseases, there is an urgent need to provide nutritional advice based on sound science.’”

She added: “Neither Teicholz nor The BMJ are new to criticism. Healthcare is rife with controversy and the field of nutrition more so than many, characterised as it is by much weak science, polarised opinion, and powerful commercial interests. But nutrition is perhaps one of the most important and neglected of all health disciplines, traditionally relegated to non-medical nutritionists rather than being, as we believe it deserves to be, a central part of medical training and practice.

The BMJ plans to continue to provide a forum for debate on the science and politics of food; for example, we are collaborating with researchers from Tufts University in Massachusetts and the University of Cambridge on a series of articles examining the science and politics of food, which is due to be published next year.”


List of links to the saga as it has unfolded these past two years in the DietDoctor article above.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sat, Dec-03-16 at 06:05.
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  #118   ^
Old Sat, Dec-03-16, 08:56
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Plan: LC--Atkins
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Perhaps one of the good outcomes of the recent U.S. election would be a budget cut (call it belt-tightening!) that eliminates the U.S. DAG. Let local authorities decide what the school lunches will be, and leave the rest of us alone.

Just wishful thinking, in a time of despair.
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  #119   ^
Old Sat, Dec-03-16, 14:41
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkloots
Perhaps one of the good outcomes of the recent U.S. election would be a budget cut (call it belt-tightening!) that eliminates the U.S. DAG. Let local authorities decide what the school lunches will be, and leave the rest of us alone.

Just wishful thinking, in a time of despair.

Amen to that. There are still many experts in advisory roles who need to be educated. I was at a business dinner the other night sitting across from a gentleman whose daughter is a registered dietician. As we discussed nutrition, he informed those of us at the table that according to his daughter, the most poisonous food to be avoided is red meat. I'm tucking into a delicious NY Strip and he's eating salmon as he's telling us this. There's no debate in this case as the "expert" has spoken. Sheesh!
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  #120   ^
Old Sat, Dec-03-16, 15:01
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Plan: LC--Atkins
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Quote:
he's eating salmon
Yeah, but was that salmon wild caught??
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