The reason those cost are so high is because the Office Managers of doctors and hospitals have found that patients don't complain when cost go up. They just submit the bill to the insurance company. In your small business, if no one ever complained about the bill, how easy would it have been to let that bill slide up until they did start complaining?

Many doctors will only charge you half price if you pay cash. If you saved your insurance payments, invested them, and payed cash when you were sick, you might (it's a gamble) both pay for your health care and fund your retirement, rather than fund the retirement of an Insurance Company Executive.

I speak out of my hat on that though, because I buy Health Care Insurance. There are many who don't though, on purpose, choosing to self insure.

Not if you own a business and pay taxes on $225,000 a year. And who wants to live like that anyway? I'm a type 1 diabetic and require lots of continuous health care and I couldn't afford all the health care I need at that time.

Everyone should have access to health insurance. I have no doubt about that. I'm not for socialized medicine either, but health insurance needs reform so that anyone who needs can buy it at a price they can afford. I take issue against being denied the right to buy it and pay for it. I'm not asking anyone else to pay for it. I take issue with being excluded.

Well, considering our Constitution tasks the federal government with managing the defense of the United States, and is granted the power to tax to fund our defense, that's not something one can deny the government is expected to fund.

Providing health insurance to every citizen - not a responsibility of the government - never has been and IMO never should be.....bureaucracy
breeds conflict-of-interest, special interet lobbying, political infighting for resources, coercive tax mandates, 'rights' to goods rather than a right to non-interferance, mandated charity, mandated benevolance, coercive transfer of wealth across the population....all contributing to the situation today and doing more of the same isn't going to make it better, but make it worse.

Those drug companies have to use that extra to research new drugs, while folks in other countries can just steal the formulas and make the drugs without the research overhead.

That's equality for you.

(Not that I'm in favor of making new drugs, but if people want them, someone has to pay for the research)

My example was someone who is self-employed and lack of insurance is due to cost as a self-employer. All who reviewed the application for fee reduction were well aware of the earnings (which appeared high) but also took into consideration the expenses and such the couple pay and what they could afford to pay, so reduced the price of everything by almost 80%.

Again, the point is....healthcare was accessible, made affordable and provided....without health insurance. Happens everyday throughout the US and happens a lot. But we don't tend to hear about it since the focus is intently on universal insurance for all, no matter what!



So then....and this isn't to be argumentative, it's merely a philosophical point of perspective....you believe everyone has a right to a portion of my earnings so everyone has a health insurance policy?

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."

Those who never learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat the mistakes.

OK, let's say I make a product that costs me $10 to make, and I find buyers who are willing to pay $12 for it. Then you come along and can only afford $5 and use the government to force me to sell it to you at that price.

Where does the extra money come from? How will I buy the material I need to make more, so I can sell them to you at a loss next time?

"Free Health care" isn't Socialized medicine, it's Socialism. Socialism requires a tyranny to enforce because sane people won't work for a loss.

Pfffft. It's more complex than that. All it takes is to reconfigure groups to spread the risk among the group members that would result in more equity. It is government interference that is keeping small business owners from banding together to create larger groups which would make health insurance more affordable. Do you know how many people work for small businesses and have no insurance? Do you know who is picking up the tab for those folks now? The government. Is this stupid or what?

And it is not a matter of selling to the highest bidder in my case. It is a matter of being denied insurance at any price. Just SOL. Our constitution does afford us protection from discrimination and people with chronic health conditions are discriminated against. That's just a fact. It's not market forces. It's the insurance companies screwing us because they can.

Well that's a different thing, and not "health care at a price I can afford".

Do you konw what you get when you breed an Insurance Company with a Government?

Satan.

No, really, you get Satan... Horns and tail and everything.

But people are willing to deal with Satan to get what they want. It's not Satan's fault he is Satanic. We knew what we were doing when we started. Everyone hopes that the insurance company will lose the Bet, that we won't get sick. We hope that we get sick, so we can get some of that money back that we laid on the table. Many folks just go in to the doctor, once the deductable is paid, to get anything that will be covered.

If you sell you soul to Satan, the devil will get his due.

Our constitution provides protection from government interference in our pursuit of life, liberty and property - it does not guarantee we'll be successful, happy or have the life we think we deserve, nor does it guarantee us any material goods - it guarantees our right to pursue them, not our success at doing so.

It protects us from government interferance with regard to our speech (and thoughts/beliefs), religion, ability to freely move about and associate with whomever we want. It protects our ability to defend ourselves as individuals, protects against searches of our person or property without reasonable cause, protects that we aren't compelled to testify against our own interest, if we are charged, guarantees we have a trial by jury of our peers, and so on....all "rights" based upon freedom to live our lives as we see fit, without intereferance from the government.

The only non-discrimination "right" is in the right to vote - the government cannot interfere with a citizen's right to vote based on gender, race, color....and cannot deny the vote to those who are 18 and older.

I fully understand you feel discriminated against due to your health condition causing denial of insurance...and in a sense you are being penalized for a medical condition that was of no fault of your own....but our constitution does not protect against discrimination if you have a disease and an insurance company denies you coverage.

I think I have a right to benefit from some of my $60,000 a year in taxes. Wouldn't you be pissed off if you were subsidizing everyone else with your taxes and was denied the opportunity to buy health insurance?

I was able to get state subsidized insurance after contributing to my state senator's election campaign and sending him an irate email. I would never ask individuals for a cut-rate price because of some screwed up laws. It's demeaning and I'm too independent to do that.

Sure this happens a lot, but then the opposite happens a lot:
Two stories: I was in my doctors office a few years ago and I over heard his nurse telling him of a phone call from a free clinic in Los Angeles. Apparently a recent former patient of his had fallen on hard times and had gone to a free clinc for some health related issue. The clinic had called to see if the doctor would fax them her medical records and lab results and that would save them from re-doing some expensive tests. The doctor told the nurse to ask them if the clinc was going to pay this woman's outstanding balance of some paltry amount $25.00. But when they said they didn't have the funds to pay her prior medical bills he refused to help or even talk to them on the phone until she came in and paid her bill. (which she probably would of done if she hadn't been unemployed and homeless). If I had been thinking fast enough I would of said I'll pay her damned $25.00 and let me out of here so I can go to a doctor who has more compassion.
--------------------
A guy in Los Angeles is early 30s, owns his own auto repair shop. He doesn't have health insurance but has $11,000 in savings.
He got a bad case of Flu. He was in the hosiptal 3 days.
The bill: $34,000.
He tried and tried to work out a payment plan. He offered them $11,000 down payment and $300.00 a month to pay off the balance. The response from the hospital: They turned it over to their legal department who sued and threatened his assets including his business.
He hired an attorney who found out had this man been covered by insurance the insurance would of paid the hospital only $8,000 and they would of been required to take that as full payment (plus the $50.00 ER co-pay). But here he is offering them $3,000 more than the full payment the insurance would of paid plus monthy payments and they turned him down.
Basically some hospitals overcharge people with assests to make up for for the non paying poor.
So the result is that he is forced into Chapter 7 Bankruptcy, which wipes out any savings you have that is more than a few hundred dollars. Those monies are distibuted to your creditors - which for him was only the hospital.
So after all of this the hospital got about $5,000 cash, he was wiped out and has a bankruptcy on his record for 10 years. So next time he gets sick he has no insurance, no cash, no savings and zero possibily of working out a payment plan with a doctor due to a backruptcy on his record showing the hospital had to write off the $29,000 inflated remaining balance.

It seems to me not only has quality of health care gone down in the past 44 years since my mother spent 5 days in the hospital for cancer and no insurance and the 42 years since I spent 3 days in the hospital with appendicitis with no insurance, but the common sense and business sense has gone to ZERO. I am sure any of us were offered 11,000 now or maybe $5000 in the future if we can get it we would take the 11K and run with it!.

Small business owners would love to be able to not only provide insurance for ourselves, but to offer our employees employer-subsidized insurance at a price that would allow us to remain solvent. We do not endorse government-funded health care. We are only asking for a level playng field with the big companies. This is the policy that the members of the National Federation of Independent Business Owners endorse:

http://www.nfib.com/page/healthcare.html

As you can see, it does not subject anyone to taxes to pay for anyone else's health care. But I can assure you, you already are paying in a most uneconomical way.

Here's a view you might not have considered before - it's demeaning because you're independent and understand the value of your hard work and exceptional ability to earn for yourself through your own abilities. Yet, the government coercively makes you fork over $60,000 each year of your hard earned money.....half of it being transferred to others through government programs providing them with something you need but you can not buy.

You have no choice - you can't say 'look, give me my $30,000 and let me take care of my health costs and I'll never apply for government programs"....you can't because if you fon't pay they'll throw you in jail and penalize you with fines. In the strictest sense, this makes you a slave to others by way of government mandates....basically giving everyone else a right to claim your earnings.....making you work for others to have while you cannot have.

In any reality that is coersion....you have not made the decsion to provide to others willingly, you're made to do and if you don't you'll be punished.

That, IMO, is exactly what's wrong with the current system....and it's only breeding upon itself to make things worse, not better. Yes, I think you should be able to buy health insurance.....but I don't think mandating a program as is being foisted upon the nation is the solution - it'll just feed the beast.....

By your logic, the Americans with Disabilities Act would be unconstitutional. And the constitution does protect our rights to commerce and anti-trust laws go even further. So, yeah, I have a right to purchase something that other people can purchase but I can't because of a certain medical condition. I think even the most uber-neocon would agree with that. It is my money and I am paying taxes. Fortunately, the states have stepped in to form groups to defeat the insurance lawyers twisting of laws, but there aren't enough slots for everyone.

If you are smart enough and have enough money, you can find a way. If you're poor enough, you can find a way. But the monumental waste which occurs when people have to wait for an acute illness and visit the emergency room for medical care is staggering. We all pay for that with our taxes. Our national health care policy is not based on common sense, but a patchwork of laws which have been contested for years by insurance company lawyers to remain favorable to insurance companies. It does not serve the national interest whatsoever.

I've been looking at various options for DH's practice since the plan they offer is very expensive....one option that makes sense to me is offering major medical + a health savings account contribution to take care of the routine stuff not covered by the major medical.

I'm going to use hypothetical numbers....the average comprehensive policy is costing an employer $9,600 per employee and often as much as $15,000 per family (many employers pay the family rate, other pass a portion of the difference to the employee, others have the employee pay the full difference or opt to go individual only).

Let's say though you're a small employer and have 8-employees....to offer them coverage and yourself, you're looking at (using averages) 9 individuals, or $86,400 a year. But four of your employees are married and have families, yourself included - now you're looking at $96,000 if your group insurance costs $12,000 for family coverage....so you're paying an average $10,666 for each employee you cover if you pay for the insurance as a benefit.

Major medical policies (covering catastrophic medical costs and hospitalizations and usually cover a percentage up to a deductible, let's call it $2000) average (in the US) $3600 for individuals and $5400 for families.

Now for you to provide the same 9 employees major medical is down to $39,600. And hey, you're generous, you want to make sure your employees are well covered financially to pay for basic comprehensive care and not be burdened by deductibles, so you open each a Health Savings Account - funding individuals with $2000 a year and families with $3000....you're contributing $22,000 more for each employee....in total spending $61,600 a year to provide major medical and provide enough that basic preventative medicine and some of a deductible can be met.

Your bottomline now has $34,400 more, your employees are all covered and they now have to 'manage' the financials of their HSA - something that most plans today totally provide no incentive for a patient to think about....the whole decision-making process today is totally lopsided....and is so contrary to other sectors of the insurance industry - you buy car insurance to reduce financial losses from accidents, fire, theft, etc., you're expected to pay for the costs to maintain.....you buy home insurance to cover against financial ruin in fire, flood, wind, theft, etc......you're expected to pay for the costs of maintaining your home.

Yet health insurance has morphed into this buy all the maintenance....that's what needs to change IMO - I think it is reasonable for someone to budget and pay for their maintenance, just as they are expected to with their car or home or boat or other property.