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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Sep-07-14, 22:33
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
And the !Kung--most of the fat in their diet comes from the mongongo nut, that's an especially rich source of omega-6. I don't think it's at all clear that a high omega 6 diet, in and of itself, leads to inflammation and Western disease. It's not hard to find an association of these. Or reasonable studies that show a plausible mechanism. Personally I avoid plant oils not because of the omega 6 in them--I don't worry about the omega 6 in nuts or even peanuts--but because most of these refined oils taste like crap to me.


I didn't know that about the !Kung — that's really interesting. But, as Mark Sisson says, nuts aren't just bags of linolenic acid.

As far as the taste of refined oils, most people know that only after being persuaded to eat a real-food diet. People are inclined to keep on with what they know (crappy oils) if the alternative requires any more work and stress on their part.
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 04:58
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Soy is the oil that really gets me. When the non-single-ingredient peanut butters started having soy instead of blander vegetable oils like corn, I stopped liking the stuff. I think I'm particularly taste-sensitive to soy.

Personally, I have a problem with nuts and binging, but only if I'm at a reduced weight through calorie-restriction. I don't know if that has anything to do with the poly's, but I doubt it, because nuts like macadamia that don't have high levels of omega 6 seem to have the same effect on me as any other nut.

With the refined oils--if you cornered me, it's not like I think they're safe, so much. It's just that I'm not so certain that they're not.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 07:54
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat_Camel
Does that include olive oil? I eat a ton of olive oil.


Gleep! I should have said most plants fats are high in omega-6 fats. Olive oil and coconut oil (unrefined, please) are actually good for you. Olive oil is full of omega-9 fat. A compound that the body makes from this fat indirectly activates a brain circuit that increases feelings of fullness. So, it helps leptin in this regard.

Coconut oil is half lauric acid. The body converts this into monolaurin, which has antifungal, antiviral, and antibiotic properties. There's even a brand of natural antibiotic called Lauricidin. The other half is largely medium-chain triglycerides, which is the preferred fuel of muscles on a high-fat diet.
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 10:55
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KDH KDH is offline
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Plan: Atkins/Taubes
Stats: 270/168/160 Female 5'7"
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Location: Dallas, TX
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"Full on Monet ... From far away, it's OK, but up close, it's a big old mess." -Cher Horowitz

I wondered the other day how starving women in Africa or junkies or anybody that should logically have reproduction system shut-down due to malnutrition keep having babies. The human body is a miraculous machine, for sure. Above all, it wants to survive and reproduce.
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  #20   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 13:46
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
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Other than people pointing out that lacto-ovo-mollusk-pescatarian vegetarians can get all the nutrients that ruminant-meat eaters do, although with more difficulty, I'm satisfied on this issue. The only case no one's argued is that vegans can be healthy, but we have corner cases like Denise Minger (not strictly vegan) who are healthy.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this matter.
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  #21   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 13:46
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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There's also the issue that most vegans aren't 100%. And perhaps they supplement.
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  #22   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 13:53
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
There's also the issue that most vegans aren't 100%. And perhaps they supplement.


Needing to supplement anything beyond what our modern environment or our genetics lack, e.g., magnesium, potassium, vitamin C, or would be impractical to get enough of in our diets, e.g., DHA, is a prime indicator of a bogus dietary paradigm.
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  #23   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 14:43
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Yeah, no argument from me on that. :-)
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, Sep-15-14, 19:41
pazia pazia is offline
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Some people thrive on diets they're not supposed to do well on. It could be genetic. And I think younger people have a more active or efficient metabolism that can deal with imbalances or less than perfect nutrition.

However, if they're not doing well, and then stay with a vegetarian/vegan diet, then there's a problem. Some people override their bodies' signals or may even be too adaptable when they shouldn't be. I know I overrode my body's danger signs for a long time when I was doing LFHC and just kept going until finally there was a crisis and I had to pay attention.

I also think the aspect of mental and emotional health is often cast aside with too much emphasis on the physical. A person can LOOK okay because they're not overweight, but they may be a dysfunctional wreck and/or not thinking clearly or being productive.

There was a post last week on Mark's Daily Apple from a vegetarian who discussed how he struggled with depression for a long time and healed so much after going paleo: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/insp...age-2/#comments
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  #25   ^
Old Wed, Sep-17-14, 19:37
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
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Progress: 96%
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Thanks for the link, pazia.
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  #26   ^
Old Wed, Sep-17-14, 19:44
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I think what we know is the Inuit were free of Western disease.


Really?







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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Sep-18-14, 05:22
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Okay, there's some debate on that issue.

I've addressed the paper that article is about in another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Eskimo heart disease

This is the paper.

quote;
------------------------------------------------------------
APPENDIX A
Studies cited by Bjerregaardet al21 that refer to CHD and atherosclerosis among Greenland
Eskimos.
Eskimos have less CHD/atherosclerosis than non-Eskimos
________________________________________________________________________ _____
Level of evidence: I
Ehrström, 1951
________________________________________________________________________ _____
Level of evidence: II
57
Bjerregaard,1988;58Bjerregaard&Dyerberg, 1988
________________________________________________________________________ ______
38
Level of evidence: III
Kroman and Green, 1980
________________________________________________________________________ ______
45
Eskimos have the same or more CHD/atherosclerosis than non-Eksimos
________________________________________________________________________ _____
Level of evidence: I
Bertelsen, 1940;20 Hansen et al. 1990;59Ingeman- Nielsen, 199060
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pretty thin soup for the same or more heart disease category. What were the Inuit Bertelsen studied actually eating? The actual study is in Danish, and doesn't show up on Google.

quote;
----------------------------------------------
Notably, in 1940, A. Bertelsen, a Danish doctor that practiced for many
years in Greenland, described frequent occurrence of CAD in this Inuit population.
----------------------------------------------------------------



Fodor argues that many Inuit lived where access to modern medical care was scant--so that unqualified persons filled out cause-of-death. Where did Bertelsen practice? Inuit that had better access to medical care, by definition, lived less remote to other modern conveniences--components of the modern diet, sugar, wheat, alcohol--cigarettes? etc. So while the argument that we can't be sure of the validity of the death records of remote Inuit may be true--we can't be sure just what Bertelsen's patients were eating. Maybe more omega-3's than European heritage Greenlanders. But what else? Other than this 1940's study, the studies cited by Fodor are more modern studies, in people whose traditional diet has been compromised.

Given the therapeutic effects of a low-carb diet, whether it's ketogenic or not, I'm a little doubtful myself about the relative importance of omega 3's here. But I don't think Fodor has established that low cardiovascular disease among traditional Inuit is a myth. The case for low heart disease might not be as tight as we'd like it to be--but I don't think it's been debunked.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Sep-19-14, 09:39
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hysteria hysteria is offline
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Plan: General LC
Stats: 232/157.4/145 Female 5'6.5
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I am watching / talking to a couple in their early 60's - the husbands been vegan for 10+ years, the wife recently completed the transition from pescatarian to vegan. They both seem amazing healthy, vital...& both look like they are in their 40's & they both drink amazing amounts of quality craft beer (go figure). They both say yearly physical #'s are amazing...claim all their doctors want the secrets...I have no proof obviously - just listening / observation. Maybe the hops / yeast in the beer help? Idk...
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Sep-19-14, 10:14
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Plan: Dr. Bernstein
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Location: NE WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hysteria
Maybe the hops / yeast in the beer help? Idk...


Perfect experiment for beer lovers.
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  #30   ^
Old Sat, Sep-20-14, 22:15
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hysteria
I am watching / talking to a couple in their early 60's - the husbands been vegan for 10+ years, the wife recently completed the transition from pescatarian to vegan. They both seem amazing healthy, vital...& both look like they are in their 40's & they both drink amazing amounts of quality craft beer (go figure). They both say yearly physical #'s are amazing...claim all their doctors want the secrets...I have no proof obviously - just listening / observation. Maybe the hops / yeast in the beer help? Idk...


They're obviously lying. Doctors think they *have* all the secrets; they'd never ask for them.

But seriously: This is exactly the kind of walking contradiction I first asked about. It doesn't fit the LC or paleo paradigms. What I'd hate to see happen to us is what happens with them when they see people's signs of health improve when they switch to a LC or paleo diet. They write off the success as outliers or claim that they're going to suffer horribly after 20 years.

If we claim to be guided by (a) good scientific evidence and (b) our own experience and that of people who eat our way, then how can we deny the walking evidence of apparently healthy vegetarians?

Last edited by aj_cohn : Sat, Sep-20-14 at 22:20.
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