I'm confused. Why would you want your calories UP?

I noticed on your fit-day thing it was showing over 58 carbs for your day -- I'd never lose Anything if I were eating that many carbs.

Maybe you should consider lowering the carbs instead of raising the calories?

JerryM,

Wow I got a look at your profile. What a great job you've done -- from 410 to 259! I'd love to hear some of the wisdom you've picked up along that journey.

My understanding is that too large a deficit between the calories you take in and the calories you expend can cause your body to defer to a "starvation" mode, where it tries to preserve itself by becoming more efficient and lowering its metabolism. People trying to avoid that will up their intake to prevent it.

I have no idea whether this is a true theory or one of those myths that people have repeated so often that we believe it. I've thought it was at least somewhat logical, but then I have not truly tracked my intake on a regular basis. On the days I have tracked it, I've taken in 1400 or less and expended 3600 or so. I lose at that, and thought that to avoid the metabolic repercussions of my body "thinking" it was starving that I should increase my calories.

In your opinion (and anyone else's for that matter) is this a true theory? Of as you mention above, is a caloric intake of 700-800 the range we should be worried about, rather than an overall deficit?

I'm curious about what people think. I've tried to bring my calories up without increasing carbs, which isn't easy, so I've stayed at the 1400 range most days.

Scott

I believe that Atkins works in two ways for me. The first, is that when in ketosis I do not consume as much food (calories) because the ketosis acts as an appetitie suppressent.

The low-carb lifestyle works because it controls my insulin levels and insulin is what triggers the body to store fat. With Atkins we use fat as fuel instead of sugar.

I think both factors (lower calorie and low-carb) produce weight loss. That being said, I do keep my calories up to an appropriate level for my overall health. Having a lifelong history of yo-yo dieting as well as low calorie dieting, have taken a toll on my general health.

The human body resists starvation in very effective ways. When your calories go down, your metabolism slows down as well, in order to economize and run off fewer calories.

For overall health, it is important to eat enough calories so as not to stress your body. I could get away with it when I was younger, but at 47, it makes a HUGE difference. I need adequate calories to think well and have enough energy. It is not a simple equation. The body is a complex organism much of which is still not understood even with modern science.

One answer - DEVILED EGGS with lots of mayo.

Orchid

Scott, this is a really good link to explain the metabolic advantage of a high fat diet. HTH.

I heard this on another board. They say that just to lose you should be eating (don't yell at me) 10 to 12 X your weight in calories. So if you weigh 250 you should be eating between 2500 and 3000 calories per day. I'm going to try to find if there's a source behind it, all I know is they swear by it!

I think I read another post that said you should be eating 10 to 12 x your GOAL weight. I'm not sure if there is scientific evidence ... just what I read.

Scott,
If there IS such a thing as a starvation mode (it hasn't been proven), eating 1500-1700 calories isn't it, it would be more along the lines of 300-400 which is what you see in 3rd world countries. What really happens when calories are scarce is that the body starts using muscle as energy, slowing the metabolism. This can be seen looking at starving children in africa who are painfully thin but still have large stomachs.

I can't believe that eating 1400 calories a day is detrimental in any way as long as you can stay on plan. Now the real key here is exercise, primarily weight training. If you reach your goal, but have lost so much lean tissue doing it that you rebound back, you're screwed and theres nothing you can do about it.

I firmly believe that my emphasis on weight traing has kept me from stalling...ever. I am 15% stronger now than at the beginning of last year when I weighed 316. What does that mean? It means I am losing fat exclusively. Now I may lose slower than others (about 1.25 lbs a week) because I am adding lean tissue at the same time, but I won't have a rebound at goal (another 17 lbs) either.

Well, even if fat consumes more energy to utilize as fuel than carbs or protein, that doesn't mean fat is an energy free food. It is nonsensical to say eating more total calories, regardless of where they come from, will speed up weight loss. Maybe if you were eating so few calories before that your body was starving and slowing down all body process, I could see eating more calories in this case might encourage your body to burn fat. But if you are eating enough already (and unless you FEEL very hungry, you should be), eating more calories will only decrease the amount of body fat your body needs to burn.

I know this question is not directed to me, but I MUST voice my opinion on the so called "starvation mode" issue.

IMO, there is no such thing as "starvation mode", at least not in the way most people think of it. There is no invisible threshold of caloric restriction which is so severe where your body SUDDENLY slows down everything immediately. Don't get me wrong, I do believe starvation will cause your body to slow down metabolic processes (which I will go into later), I just simply don't believe it works in binary like that, like an off or on switch, and I don't think the physical effects of starving your body are as much related to how much energy you take in as it is to body fat levels.

I think any caloric deprivation will cause your body to slow down its metabolic processes; and the greater the deprivation, the more your body will cut back. However, I do NOT think the reason this is, is because your body has already started to conserve energy. I think the reason is much more simple than that.
If you are not giving your body enough protein and/or fat, it can't make the optimal amount of repairs it could be. This is what causes the slowdown. Whenever you deprive your body of essential amino acids, fatty acids, minerals, or whatever... you are depriving it of the building blocks it needs to make repairs. If your body doesn't have the needed materials, it can't make the repairs, and it is the repair process which raises our metabolism. By withholding "materials", your body has no choice but to slow everything down.
The greater the deprivation, the less your body will have to work with, and the less work your body does the less energy you will expend. So you see it isn't so much that your body "thinks its starving" and is conserving energy, it's more an issue that your body just doesn't have the option to burn more energy because it lacks materials.

So, the very act of dieting slows metabolism. Eating more (in absensce of true starvation) won't counter this, since the extra energy you take in will be greater than the energy your body will spend.

Some people theorize your body has ways of being more efficient with the energy you give it during times of negative energy balance, but I think this only happens when your weight drops very low, not from dieting alone. Entering so-called starvation mode is a direct function of body fat levels, and not directly related to dieting. Set points are very real, and everyone has a unique set point. Most of us in the TDC don't need to worry about this, but this is a common cause of stalls for people who are already at a normal weight but just want to lose 10 or 15 pounds. It works something like this. Leptin is an anti-starvation hormone, and fat cells produce leptin. Your body has a set "leptin sensitivity" threshhold; meaning, your body expects a certain amount of leptin to be circulating. When leptin is too low your body thinks it doesn't have enough fat. If you lose too much fat, that is if you go to far below your "expected leptin levels" aka "set point", a whole hormonal shift begins to occur. Thyroid function lowers, which lowers metabolism. You will feel cold all the time, tired, and lethargic (due to the decreased thyroid function). You become insatiably hungry and prone to binge eating. Your body does everything in its power to "save you"; it makes you insatiably hungry and makes you feel like the walking dead to conserve energy. It is important to remember showing these signs of starvation are not something that happens over night. The lower your body fat levels get below "optimal", the more your body will fight you.

I should say it is not quite correct to say diet has no effect on whether or not you are in starvation mode and how deep in; after all you can only starve by not eating so the two must be related. One thing is certain however, if you have LOTS of body fat, and if you are not eating a very low calorie diet, you are in *no danger* of entering starvation mode. It are the folks who are only slightly overweight/normal weight and on very low calorie diets who can "enter starvation mode".

I repeat: STARVATION MODE only happens when you do not have a lot of body fat, and when body fat is leaving the fat cell too rapidly (meaning you are on a very low calorie diet or not eating anything at all).

In other words, if you weigh 300 pounds and your ideal weight is 170 (130 pounds of total fat), and you are eating 1400 calories, rasing that so you are eating 2000 calories will acomplish nothing but slowing the rate of loss.

Now if you weighed 130 pounds, and your ideal weight is actually 135 (you are already low on fat), AND you were only eating only 400 calories a day (thus causing whatever meager fat you have left to be spent rapidly), yes it is expected your body would enter starvation mode in a hurry. Leptin would plumet so low that all the anti-starvation hormones would kick in.

If this still doesn't put to rest your fears of starving and stalling, ask yourself this. Do you feel cold and tired all the time? Do you want to sleep all the time and have no energy for anything? Are you insatiably hungry and do you feel like binging on everything in sight (especially carbs)? If not, relax. You aren't manifesting starvation symptoms. If you are stalled it is probably because you aren't getting enough activities in or eating too many hidden calories (which might be caused by eating too many hidden carbs).

Thank you for sharing this, ItsTheWooo! I appreciate it and am really trying to "get it".



Do you know if there any way of determining an individual's set point? How did you come to the conclusion that you were at a set point?



What do you mean by "to be circulating"? Is leptin produced when a fat cell is filled or depleted...or does something else trigger it?

Based on your theories, it would seem that folks who have a lot of fat could go quite low in caloric intake and still be successful. The key would be to know when we are taking in enough "material" for the body to be able to repair itself. How could that be determined? I believe the fat fast is kept at 1000 calories. Assuming that 4 of the 9 from fat are discarded, that really is quite low then.

Thanks for educating me! I truly do appreciate it.

Hello
When you are approaching your set point, you will know it. You will start to feel more like an anorexic than someone on the low carbohydrate diet . You will manifest hypothyroid symptoms: Weight loss will slow considerably, almost comming to a halt. You may even gain weight. Your hair might fall out, your nails will become weak and brittle. You will feel very cold. You will feel tired and have zero energy. Leptin has master control over the thyroid, so when leptin levels plummet you will become hypothyroid which is responsible for these symptoms. This is why starving people feel cold and tired all the time. In addition to feeling and looking half-dead, you will have an uncontrollable appetite. You will feel hungry even after eating. You will frequently want to binge eat and have very little control over it. This is why anorexics, recently recovering or not, often binge uncontrollably... they are rebounding from rather severe starvation and they are powerless before natures instincts telling them to eat. Once they start eating, they just can't stop.

So, if you are basically feeling like a happy, healthy, full of energy individual enjoy the low carbohydrate lifestyle ... don't sweat "starvation mode". Odds are you are faaar from it.

In general, most people have set points in the normal weight range, but people with a history of yo-yo dieting or other metabolic disturbances (say, a genetic predispostion towards overweight caused by being born to a gestational diabetic, or inhereting genes which make you prone to IR) may have their set point in the overweight or even the obese weight range.

This is really an individual thing, but in general if you have a tendency to gain weight you probably won't be a skinny minny at your ideal weight. Look at the other women in your family who are mindful of their eating habits; odds are their weight range is what you should be in. Personally in my family the girls become overweight easily, and at their ideal they are about a size 7-9. So this is why mo goal is 135, as I figure at 135 I'll be a size 9.

Another thing you should be aware of is that set point can rise but unfortunately you really can't lower set point. It would be kind of like developing resistence to insulin; you can develop insulin resistence but once you have it you really can't reverse it, you can only control the disease. Your body raises the set point ever so slightly with each "famine". Every time you starve yourself (through very low or no calorie dieting), your body percieves that a famine has happened. To better protect itself next time, it reacts by causing you to gain more weight when reintroduced to food in "times of prosperity", through mechanisms not yet understood (but probably has something to do with decreasing sensitivity to leptin, the anti-starvation hormone).
Those individuals less sensitive to leptin require more leptin before your body senses starvation, and as I said the only way to make leptin is to gain fat. So every time you yo-yo diet, you raise your set point unnaturally high, and your body requires more stored bodyfat to feel like it has "enough" fuel in reserve for the next famine. This is why it is VERY IMPORTANT not to truly starve yourself to lose weight, or do anything which can't be maintained to diet with. Repeated yo-yo dieting is the *absolute worst* thing you can do to your body, and you *will* make yourself permenantly fatter through it. I don't mean to ruin anyones day who has a history of yo-yo dieting, it is possible to lose weight when you have such a history, but please be aware that if you have a history of yo-yo dieting it will be much, much harder to lower body fat levels than if you had never dieted at all.


The fat in a fat cell is metabolically active. It is a living, breathing, organ. It not only stores hormones, but it produces hormones as well (which is why overweight women and men tend to have sex hormone disorders and other hormonal issues; they have too much fat and therefore too much hormones). One of the many hormones your fat cells produce is leptin. Leptin is "percieved" to be in existence by receptor sites in the body; most leptin receptors are clustered in the organs that make up the endocrine system, mainly the thyroid and pituary axis, but also the tongue (leptin helps regulate appetite; when leptin is low you will crave carbohydrate).

When there is a positive energy balance, that is when you are gaining fat, leptin levels rise. When there is a negative energy balance, that is when you are losing weight, leptin levels begin to fall. So you see, level of body fat equals level of circulating leptin; how sensitive your leptin receptors are are to leptin (that is, how much fat your body THINKS you should have) dictates at what weight you will be when you start to encroach upon the dreaded set point induced starvation mode.

Hmmm well I am not totally sure if the metabolic advantage is really 4 of 9 calories spent, although I am sure the metabolic advantage does exist I just don't think it is quite that generous .

Yes, the obese have a long way to go to lose weight, but the bonus is that because they have so much extra unneeded body fat, they can create quite large caloric deficits before their body starts to fight back. This is especially true if they are comming from a "virgin dieter" history. I personally lost most of my weight in the first few months, and the whole time I did so without any negative side effects other than electrolyte imbalance caused by rapid fluid loss (a side effect of the rapid weight loss).

In my opinion, if you are NOT hungry, there is no need to eat more. Eating more will not speed up weight loss. While it is true that any restriction on food intake does temporarily lower metabolism, eating more will not help create an energy deficit because the extra energy you take in will always be more than the deficit created from using that energy for digestion or repairs.

So, don't sweat starvation mode or anything like that. In general, eat a nutritionally rich balanced diet that leaves you satisfied but not stuffed. If you are hungry, truly hungry, than eat more. Eating a higher % of your calories more from fat may help speed up rate of loss due to the metabolic advantage, but eating ADDITIONAL calories, regardless of where they come from, will probably not increase your weight loss.

ItsTheWoo,

A few times, I've pointed friends to things you've posted because your stuff is so well-written and knowledgable. I've been worried about this issue for a while, and what you write makes immense sense.

Scott

Very informative. Thank you very much, ItsTheWoo. I agree with Scott. Your posts are very well thought out and helpful. I know it takes a lot of your time to post this for us, so thank you!

Thanks guys, I really appreciate it