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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Aug-26-07, 14:16
Daryl's Avatar
Daryl Daryl is offline
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Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
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Location: Texas
Default For those on, or considering statins

An article by Dr Uffe Ravnskov:

Quote:
The effect of the statins is not due to cholesterol-lowering
As mentioned in section 4 cholesterol-lowering by itself does not prolong your life. In the experiments, that have shown this fact beyond all doubt, cholesterol-lowering was performed by diet or by use of various older drugs such as clofibrate (Atromidin®), gemfibrozil (Lopid®), cholestyramine (Questran®), colestipol (Lestid®), and nicotinic acid (Nicangin®).
But a new type of cholesterol-lowering drugs, the so-called statins (for instance Zocor® and Pravachol®) have been succesful. For the first time cholesterol-lowering have shown significant improvement of mortality, both coronary mortality, stroke mortality and total mortality. These trials are therefore considered as strong arguments for the idea, that a high cholesterol is dangerous.

Have these trials really demonstrated that raised LDL cholesterol has importance for coronary heart disease, as the trial directors concluded in the reports?

There is reason to question that, because some of the results are not consistent with what we have learned about cholesterol.

First, old patients were protected from cardiovascular disease just as much (or as little) as young ones, although most studies have shown that a high cholesterol is a weak risk factor, or no risk factor at all, for old people. (Unfortunately, in the only trial that included old people only, the PROSPER trial, the lowering of heart mortality was smaller thanm the increse of cancer mortality).

Second, also the number of strokes was reduced after statin treatment, although no studies have shown that a high cholesterol is a risk factor for stroke.

Third, patients who had had a coronary were protected although most studies have shown that a high cholesterol is a weak risk factor, if any at all, for those who already have had a coronary. (In fact, this finding should have stopped all the previous, secondary preventive trials).

And finally, the statins protected against coronary heart disease whether the cholesterol was high or low although most studies have shown that a normal or low cholesterol is no risk factor for coronary disease.

How come that the statins are effective for old people, for patients who already have had a coronary, and even for those whose cholesterol is normal? If the cholesterol level for these people is no risk factor for coronary disease, how could a lowering of that cholesterol improve their chances to avoid a coronary? The only reasonable explanation is that the statins do more than just lower cholesterol. There is much evidence for that.

The statins inhibit the body's production of a substance called mevalonate, which is a precursor of cholesterol. When the production of mevalonate goes down, less cholesterol is produced by the cells and thus blood cholesterol goes down as well. But mevalonate is a precursor of other substances also, substances with important biologic functions.The metabolic pathways are not known in all details, but less mevalonate may explain why simvastatin makes smooth muscle cells less active and platelets less inclined to produce thromboxane. One of the first steps in arteriosclerosis is the growth and migration of smooth muscle cells inside the artery walls; and thromboxane is a substance which promotes the clogging of blood. Thus, by blocking the function of smooth muscle cells and platelets, simvastatin may benefit cardiovascular disease by at least two mechanisms and both of these mechanisms are independent of the cholesterol level (82). In fact, up till now we have learned about eleven anti-atherosclerotic effects of statin treatment, that have been found independent on their effect on cholesterol

In one of the experiments for instance, performed by Dr. Yusuke Hidaka and his team, the inhibitory effect on the muscle cells could not be abolished by adding LDL-cholesterol to the test tubes (83); and in experiments with various cholesterol-lowering agents, thromboxane production was inhibited by statins only, indicating that the effect was not due to cholesterol lowering but to something else (82).

The protective effects of simvastatin was also demonstrated in animal experiments. In one of them, performed by Dr. B.M. Meiser and colleagues from Munich, Germany, hearts were transplanted into rats. Normally, the function of such grafts gradually deteriorates because the coronary vessels are narrowed by an increased growth of smooth muscle cells in the vascular walls, a condition called graft vessel disease. In Dr. Meiser's experiment, however, rats that were given simvastatin had considerably less graft vessel disease than control rats not given simvastatin, and this was not due to cholesterol lowering because simvastatin does not lower cholesterol in rats. In fact, LDL cholesterol was highest in the rats treated with simvastatin (84).

In another experiment, Dr. Maurizio Soma and his colleagues from Milan, Italy placed a flexible collar around one of the carotic arteries in rabbits. After two weeks arteries with collars became narrow but less so if the rabbit had been given simvastatin. Again, the effect was unrelated to the rabbits´ cholesterol level (85).

Thus, the statins in some way protect against cardiovascular disease, but their effect is not due to cholesterol-lowering.

But why bother about pharmacological mechanisms? Isn´t it wonderful that the statins work? Shouldn´t we all take statins?

The costs
To answer that question it is necessary to look at the figures from the trials. To be short I have chosen the figures for coronary death. According to the results from the 4S trial (86) there was a 41% reduction in the risk of coronary death. According to the results from the CARE trial (87) the reduction was 24%, and according to the WOSCOP (88) trial the reduction was 28%. These figures seem impressive, but let us look at the absolute figures also.
In the treatment group of the 4S trial five percent, or 111 individuals, died from a heart attack; in the control group 8.5 percent, or 189 individuals, died, a difference, or a risk reduction of 3.5%. To prevent these 3.5% of the patients (8.5% - 5%) or 78 individuals, from dying it was necessary to treat 2221 individuals during five years. You could also say that to prevent one death it was necessary to treat 25 individuals for five years. Or said in another way, if you have had a heart attack the chance to avoid death from a new one during five years is 91.5%. If you eat simvastatin this chance increases to 95%.

In the CARE trial 5.7%, or 119 individuals died from a heart attack in the control group and 4.6%, or 96 individuals in the treatment group. Thus, to prevent 23 coronary deaths (1.1%) it had been necessary to treat 2081 individuals for five years, which means that 90 patients were treated for each life saved.

In the WOSCOP trial, which concerned healthy individuals with a high cholesterol, the result was even less impressive. Here, 61 died in the placebo group, 41 in the treatment group, a risk reduction of 0.6%. To save these 20 lives it had been necessary to treat 3302 healthy individuals for five years, or 165 individuals for each life.

Said in another way, the risk of dying from a heart attack during five years if you are about 55 years old and if your cholesterol is around 272 mg per dl is 1.8%. With pravastatin treatment the risk is reduced to 1.2%. You could also say that the chance to avoid death from a heart attack for five years is 98.2%; with pravastatin the chance is 98.8%.

The reason why trial results should be given in absolute figures and not in relative is because the side effects are given in absolute figures. Let us assume that a mortal side effect occurs in 0.5 percent of the patients. You may belittle that if you compare this figure for instance with a relative risk reduction of 28%. But as the absolute risk reduction was 0.6% the effect of treatment has almost disappeared.

To be fair it should be mentioned that the number of non-fatal heart attacks was reduced also. In the WOSCOP trial for instance, 248 individuals in the control group had a fatal or non-fatal coronary, in the pravastatin group the number was 174. This means that to prevent a heart attack in a healthy 55 year old man with a high cholesterol it is necessary to treat about 45 men for five years. To prevent a new heart attack it is necessary to treat 34 patients for five years according to the CARE trial and 28 patients according to the 4S trial.

It is necessary also to look at the costs, but this is not an easy task. For the drugs only the price for one extra year for one person was about $41,000 in the 4S trial, about $148,000 in the CARE trial and about $205,000 in the WOSCOP trial. To that should be added the costs for laboratory tests and doctors´ fee.

There are economical gains also, of course. The directors of the most succesful trial 4S claim that the reduced costs due to the lower number of non-fatal heart attacks outweigh the expenses. But that trial concerned patients at a very high risk of cardiovascular disease. To treat healthy individuals with a high cholesterol must be very expensive, however, because the gain was very small.

The 4S directors´ optimistic views presuppose that the effect is just as positive after ten or twenty years of treatment as it was after five. Unfortunately we cannot guarantee that. Recently, Drs. Thomas Newman and Stephen Hulley published the results from a meticulous review of what we know about cancer and lipid-lowering drugs. They found that clofibrate, gemfibrozil and all the statins stimulate cancer growth in rodents (89).

Newman and Hulley asked themselves why these drugs had been approved by the Food and Drug Administration at all. The answer was that the doses used in the animal experiments were much higher than those recommended for clinical use. But as Drs. Newman and Hulley commented, it is more relevant to compare blood levels, and the levels achieved in rodents were very close to those seen in patients.

Because the latent period between exposure to a cancersstimulating chemical and the incidence of clinical cancer in humans may be 20 years or more, the absence of any controlled trials of this duration means that we do not know whether statin treament will lead to an increased rate of cancer in coming decades. There is reason to believe that it will, because as mentioned above, treatment of old people already has resulted in an increased number of cancer. The reason is probably that many old people already have cellular changes that rapidly may develop to clinical cancer if stimulated by a cancer-provoking drug..

Other nasty effects have been reported on human beings, side effects that have been reported after the end of the trials. They include peripheral neuropathy, a painful and invalidating disease mainly located to the legs (90a), memory loss (90b), short temper (90c), aggressive behavior (90d) and muscle problem that in rare cases have led to kidney failure and death. Most scary, considering that people with very high cholesterol, so-called familial hypercholesterolemia, automatically are prescribed statin treatment already from early childhood, is the recent report in prestigious New England Journal of Medicine (90e). Here the authors reported that almost 50 % of pregnant women who took a statin drug during early pregnancy gave birth to a child with malformations, some of them more severe than those seen after thalidomide treatment.

Those who argue for statin treatment have argued that these side effects are very rare. They will most certainly become much more common considering that the new cholesterol guidelines recommend that cholesterol should be lowered as much as possible, even if it may demand an eight times higher dose than used hitherto.

Thus, millions of asymptomatic people are being treated with medications, the ultimate effects of which are not yet known. Drs. Newman and Hulley therefore recommended that the new statins should be used for patients at very high risk for coronary disease only, whereas such treatment should be avoided for individuals with life expectancies of more than 10 to 20 years. And healthy people with a high cholesterol as the only risk marker belong to that category.


I would add to the above: please read What You Must Know About Statin Drugs and Their Natural Alternatives, by Dr Jay S. Cohen. It is an incredibly even-handed look at statins, doses, costs, and is well worth a look. Cohen is "pro-statin", but do not let that scare you from reading this book.
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Aug-26-07, 20:29
NorthPeace's Avatar
NorthPeace NorthPeace is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 388
 
Plan: Nutritarian
Stats: 248/208/168 Male 5'9"
BF:Waist 46?/34/?
Progress: 50%
Location: British Columbia
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Here is his website: http://www.medicationsense.com
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-07, 04:22
Daryl's Avatar
Daryl Daryl is offline
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Posts: 7,427
 
Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
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Thanks, Joe. I was about 15 pages into his book, and thought "damn, I wish this guy was my doctor!" He's very sharp.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-07, 19:24
NorthPeace's Avatar
NorthPeace NorthPeace is offline
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Posts: 388
 
Plan: Nutritarian
Stats: 248/208/168 Male 5'9"
BF:Waist 46?/34/?
Progress: 50%
Location: British Columbia
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Yeah, I will have to straighten out this cholesterol and statin thing. There are so many polarized opinions out there. I should get the book too.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Sep-17-07, 22:09
lorimay7 lorimay7 is offline
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Posts: 5
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 189/162/135 Female 61.5
BF:
Progress:
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"Drs. Newman and Hulley therefore recommended that the new statins should be used for patients at very high risk for coronary disease only, whereas such treatment should be avoided for individuals with life expectancies of more than 10 to 20 years. And healthy people with a high cholesterol as the only risk marker belong to that category. "

I have a question.
Ok, what would qualify one to be high risk?

I am 41 (more than 20 yrs to go I hope) but my most recent blood work-up came back with increased cholesterol levels since starting Atkins.
My total is 249 was 218 before Atkins last year
HDL is 46 was 44 before Atkins last year
LDL is 189 was 158 before Atkins last year
Triglycerrides are 92 was 128 before Atkind last year.

I am healthy otherwise.

I was very disappointed to say the least as I really believed Atkins would bring my levels down. My cholesterol has been high for years and years...so i was planning on going on meds if Atkins didn't bring it down. I don't want to have a heart attack and feel I should go on the medication. But after reading this post it makes me wonder if it will really lower my risk for heart attack...
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Sep-17-07, 22:59
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,891
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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No, there's no proof that statins prevent a first heart attack. They have a very, very tiny advantage in people who have had a heart attack, but that's about it.

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com

If you're really concerned, get a heart scan THEN decide whether you have a problem or not. Cholesterol simply can't tell you.
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Sep-18-07, 15:26
Enomarb Enomarb is offline
MAINTAINING ON CALP
Posts: 4,838
 
Plan: CALP/CAHHP
Stats: 180/125/150 Female 65 in
BF:
Progress: 183%
Location: usa
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hi Lori-
how long have you been on Atkins? He says you should not have your lipids tested for at least 6 months. I had mine go down between 9 and 12 months, and things like CRP took longer.
Keep up the good work of being OP (are you OP?) and give it another try.
Welcome to this site- please read old posts and explore around and post too!
E
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Sep-19-07, 06:34
lorimay7 lorimay7 is offline
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Posts: 5
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 189/162/135 Female 61.5
BF:
Progress:
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I've been on Atkins since 4/15/07,in phase 2. I could understand it not going down perhaps but going up so much? My doc said it's genetics. I have been thinking maybe it's best to switch to south beach as it is a lower saturated fat way of eating. I'd just have to try to switch my thinking a bit...the thought of not eating real butter and eating some special blend of whatever and believing it's healthier for me will be a challenge. And having fat-free milk with all that sugar in it....But I would prefer not entertaining the idea of meds and try to get it down on my own.

I know the article talks about meds not being proven to lower your risk of heart attack but don't the meds stop your arteries from being blocked by plaque build-up? Isn't that the point of some of those meds? Won't high cholestrol at some point cause your arteries to block?

Thanks,
Lori
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Sep-19-07, 07:02
Demokat's Avatar
Demokat Demokat is offline
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Posts: 1,301
 
Plan: Paleo/Organic Fat Flush
Stats: 193/176/145 Female 5'4.5"
BF:42/31/24
Progress: 35%
Location: Boston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorimay7
I've been on Atkins since 4/15/07,in phase 2. I could understand it not going down perhaps but going up so much? My doc said it's genetics. I have been thinking maybe it's best to switch to south beach as it is a lower saturated fat way of eating. I'd just have to try to switch my thinking a bit...the thought of not eating real butter and eating some special blend of whatever and believing it's healthier for me will be a challenge. And having fat-free milk with all that sugar in it....But I would prefer not entertaining the idea of meds and try to get it down on my own.

I know the article talks about meds not being proven to lower your risk of heart attack but don't the meds stop your arteries from being blocked by plaque build-up? Isn't that the point of some of those meds? Won't high cholestrol at some point cause your arteries to block?

Thanks,
Lori


Lori,

Please take a look at some of these articles on statins:

http://www.thincs.org/Malcolm.index.htm

Also, there is no link between saturated fat consumption and heart disease. Despite big pharma's efforts to prove otherwise, there has been no definitive study that points to this. As a matter of fact, countries with the highest saturated fat consumption often have the lowest rate of heart disease (ex: France).

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=345

The lipid hypothesis is a fraud.

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyou...fat-attack.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyou...rt_sat_fat.html
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Sep-19-07, 11:51
eddiemcm's Avatar
eddiemcm eddiemcm is offline
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Posts: 1,191
 
Plan: south beach
Stats: 225/170/165 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 92%
Location: Houston,Texas
Default cholesterol-statins-red yeast rice

I use red yeast rice which can be considered to be a weak statin-it's made from fermented rice as are statins.Over 2 months of usage,my total cholesterol dropped from 235 to 170.
About cholesterol:
Much evidence in Framingham and MFIT study
that shows lower cholesterol is linked to longer
life.The graphs and charts provide data that's
pretty obvious.I will be the first to say that the
subject is controversial but I'd rather be safe than sorry.Of course,someone may ask "What is safe?".We all have to do our own research and make our own decisions.
Eddie

Last edited by eddiemcm : Wed, Sep-19-07 at 11:52. Reason: spelling
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Sep-19-07, 14:14
Demokat's Avatar
Demokat Demokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,301
 
Plan: Paleo/Organic Fat Flush
Stats: 193/176/145 Female 5'4.5"
BF:42/31/24
Progress: 35%
Location: Boston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiemcm
Much evidence in Framingham and MFIT study that shows lower cholesterol is linked to longer
life.


Lower cholesterol is also linked to increase risk of stroke. People in France and Italy have cholesterol levels that would frighten most doctors, but they live longer than Americans and have less heart disease.

Check out some of Malcolm Kendrick's articles, and Dr. Michael Eades' blog for an alternative to the corporately-sponsored cholesterol studies.
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Sep-19-07, 14:24
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,891
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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And you should read up how useless those epidemiological studies are, especially when it comes to heart disease. Excellent Gary Taubes article
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  #13   ^
Old Wed, Sep-19-07, 20:51
lorimay7 lorimay7 is offline
New Member
Posts: 5
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 189/162/135 Female 61.5
BF:
Progress:
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Wow...thank you all for all that information. I will go check it out and read as much as I can.

Thanks again!
Lori
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Sep-21-07, 16:54
eddiemcm's Avatar
eddiemcm eddiemcm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,191
 
Plan: south beach
Stats: 225/170/165 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 92%
Location: Houston,Texas
Default cholesterol link to life expectancy?

"Lower cholesterol is also linked to increase risk of stroke. People in France and Italy have cholesterol levels that would frighten most doctors, but they live longer than Americans and have less heart disease."
The controversy continues.
Average Japanese person has cholesterol 45 points lower
than average American.Their rate of cardiovascular death
is much better than USA.I believe USA is something like
number 42 among Countries of the world in life expectency.
Japan is somethink like number 5.Like I said before,the
subject of cholesterol versus longevity is confusing at best
but I'll still stick by the illustrated graphs in the Framingham and MFIT studies.
and so it goes...
Eddie
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Sep-21-07, 19:04
Demokat's Avatar
Demokat Demokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,301
 
Plan: Paleo/Organic Fat Flush
Stats: 193/176/145 Female 5'4.5"
BF:42/31/24
Progress: 35%
Location: Boston
Default

We're talking about heart disease and cholesterol and mortality, not which countries live the longest.

The Framingham Heart Study contradicts its own assertion:

"Somewhat ironically, the danger of a falling cholesterol level was first discovered in the Framingham study: 'There is a direct association between falling cholesterol levels over the first 14 years [of the study] and mortality over the following 18 years.'"

http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CAE78.htm

"In the Framingham heart study done near Boston that spanned 30 years , the researchers concluded that high cholesterol was a risk factor for heart disease, but when one really dissects the data, one must question how they came to that conclusion. For example, when the participants of the study are plotted on a graph it clearly shows that those with cholesterol levels between 182 and 222 did not survive as long as those with higher cholesterol levels of between 222 and 261. The study shows that about half the people with heart disease had low cholesterol, and half the people without heart disease had high cholesterol."

http://trusted.md/blog/vreni_gurd/2...e_heart_disease

Low cholesterol levels greatly increase your risk of dying younger. So the cholesterol hypothesis looks something like this:

There is no evidence that saturated fat is bad - and there are lots of 'paradoxes' where countries with a high cholesterol intake don't have a higher death rate from heart disease.

But there is an even more fundamental problem. The theory claims fat and cholesterol do things in the body that just don't make sense. To begin with, saturated fat and cholesterol are talked of as if they are strongly connected. A low-fat diet lowers cholesterol; a high-fat diet raises it.

What is never explained is how this works. This isn't surprising because saturated fat doesn't raise cholesterol. There is no biochemical connection between the two substances, which may explain all those negative findings.


http://campaignfortruth.com/Eclub/1...lesterolcon.htm

And one more for you:

http://easydiagnosis.com/secondopin...wsletter31.html

Happy reading!
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