Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 10:57
gotbeer's Avatar
gotbeer gotbeer is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,889
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 280/203/200 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 96%
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Thumbs down "Hopeless Fad: Sorry, the Atkins diet still doesn’t work."

Hopeless Fad

Sorry, the Atkins diet still doesn’t work.

By Michael Fumento June 6, 2003, 7:00 a.m.


link to article

Nutritionists have long said that any fad diet can shed weight quickly, but the pounds are soon regained. Now two studies in a prestigious medical journal have caused a media maelstrom. They show that the Atkins regimen can shed weight quickly . . . but the pounds are soon regained. Fad diets still don't work.

Both studies appeared in The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), with each randomly dividing subjects into two groups. In each study, one group was told to reduce caloric intake while the other wasn't expressly told to cut calories, but rather instructed to keep carbohydrate intake extremely low as dictated by the late Dr. Robert Atkins's books.

One, conducted at the Philadelphia Veterans Administration Hospital, lasted six months, comprised subjects with an initial average weight of about 215 pounds. The other was conducted at three different centers, lasted 12 months, and comprised subjects with an initial average weight of about 290 pounds.

The six-month study found that Atkins dieters lost weight at about twice the rate as the higher-carb group — for two months. Thereafter neither group lost much weight. By the end of six months, the Atkins dieters, however, had still managed to keep off about twice as much weight as the higher-carb group — for what it was worth. The average loss was a mere 13 pounds from that original 290.

Further, the 12-month study indicates even that was probably a doomed effort. Here again, the Atkins group lost considerably more weight for the first half year. But thereafter not only did it begin packing the pounds back on, it did so faster than the higher-carb group. Ultimately, concluded the researchers, "the differences were not significant at the end one of year."

Reporters who read only the press releases presented articles such as AP's, "Pair of Studies Vindicate Atkins Diet," while others who actually bothered to read the studies themselves — or at least the conclusions — came up with stories leading to quite different headlines, such as Reuters "Atkins Diet May Be No Better Than Just Cutting Fat."

"The probable explanation" for the early weight loss, said the chief researcher of the 12-month study (Gary Foster of the University of Pennsylvania), is that it "gives people a framework to eat fewer calories, since most of the choices in this culture are carbohydrate driven." He told me: "You're left eating a lot of fat, and you get tired of that." So the Atkins plan is merely a low-calorie diet in disguise.

Soon though, Atkins dieters become so starved for carbohydrates that they either start cheating or quit the plan altogether. In fact, both studies were plagued by high dropout rates from all sets of dieters. The only weight-control regimens that work for life require both eating in moderation and exercise.

"The Atkins diet produces weight loss, as does the grapefruit diet, the rotation diet, and every other fad diet out there," Foster's co-researcher James Hill of the director of the University of Colorado Center for Human Nutrition in Denver. "I haven't seen any data anywhere saying Atkins is better than these other diets for weight loss."

The NEJM findings also belied the assertions in a massively publicized New York Times Magazine cover story last year by Gary Taubes that rocketed Atkins diet-book sales into the stratosphere. It also landed Taubes his own $700,000 book contract.

In the article, Taubes ignored red flags in the Atkins book that flapped as if in a hurricane. In addition to its something-for-nothing weight-loss promise, Atkins also insisted his diet relieves "fatigue, irritability, depression, trouble concentrating, headaches, insomnia, dizziness, joint and muscle aches, heartburn, colitis, premenstrual syndrome, and water retention and bloating" — in short, it does everything but walk the dog.

Worse, Taubes ignored a mass of published and peer-reviewed studies showing low-carbohydrate diets to be ineffective for long-term weight loss, such as a review in the April 2001 Journal of the American Dietetic Association (JADA) of "all studies identified" that looked at diet nutrient composition and weight loss.

It claimed to have found over 200, with "no studies of the health and nutrition effects of popular diets in the published literature" excluded. In some, subjects were put on "ad libitum" diets, meaning they were allowed to eat as much as they wanted as long as they consumed fat, protein, and carbohydrates in the directed proportions. In others, subjects were put on controlled-calorie diets that also had directed nutrient proportions. The conclusion: Those who ate the least fat carried the least fat.

Instead, Taubes put his own spin on five then-unpublished research efforts.

"The results of all five of these studies are remarkably consistent. Subjects on some form of the Atkins diet," he insisted, "lost twice the weight as the subjects on the low-fat, low-calorie diets."

In the article, Taubes cited five then-unpublished studies claiming: "The results of all five of these studies are remarkably consistent. Subjects on some form of the Atkins diet," he insisted, "lost twice the weight as the subjects on the low-fat, low-calorie diets."

But two of those are the ones discussed here. Somehow, "The differences were not significant at the end of one year" doesn't seem to support "lost twice the weight."

A third of the five studies lasted only 12 weeks, which these two studies indicate to be obviously of no use. A fourth, according to chief author Eric Westman at Duke University, does back Atkins. But then again, Atkins backs him. The Atkins Center has an open-ended commitment to fully support Westman's work.

The last of the five studies is from the University of Cincinnati, where co-author Randy Seeley of the university's Obesity Research Center says the Atkins cohort did have twice the weight loss at the end of the six months. But his explanation is similar to Foster's, if more colorful. "If you're only allowed to shop in two aisles of the grocery store, does it matter which two they are?" he asks.

Nevertheless, at least there seemed no evidence that all that saturated fat in the Atkins diet increases the risk of heart disease.

In neither NEJM study did the Atkins dieters have increased LDL (low-density lipoprotein or "bad cholesterol,") and the 12-month one even found a small increase in HDL high-density lipoprotein or "good cholesterol." Finally the triglycerides (fatty compounds in blood) of the Atkins dieters decreased. Lower triglyceride levels have been linked to lower rates of heart disease.

But not so fast, says Robert H. Eckel, professor of medicine at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, where Hill works.

Eckel, who coauthored an accompanying commentary in the NEJM, says one probable reason for improved blood readings in the Atkins cohorts is that they did have greater weight loss, at least part of the time, in both studies. "Generally when people lose weight, both triglycerides and HDL improve," he told me.

Indeed, even the higher-carb losers showed some improvement in both measurements.

As to HDL, he says, not all HDL is created equal. Just as we once thought all cholesterol was bad, there is now evidence that some "good" HDL may not be good after all.

Finally, says Eckel, epidemiological studies indicate that triglycerides appear to have only a mild direct impact on heart disease; rather they are a marker for other factors that do impact it, just as open umbrellas are not the cause of rain but markers thereof.

The Atkins Center was overjoyed that the new studies may indicate the regimen isn't dangerous. How peculiar when the most you can say for the best-selling fad-diet book of all time is that it probably doesn't kill people.

— Michael Fumento is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington, D.C. and a syndicated columnist with Scripps Howard News Service. His book on biotechnology will be published later this year by Encounter Books.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 11:16
mrfreddy's Avatar
mrfreddy mrfreddy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 761
 
Plan: common sense low carb
Stats: 221/190/175 Male 6 feet
BF:27/13/10??
Progress: 67%
Location: New York City
Default

Foamer Fumento can fume all he wants, all I know is I lost a lot of weight, I've been on this diet for almost a year, the weight shows no sign of coming back, I don't miss carbohydrates, (well, I do miss beer...)

isn't most of this article just a cut and paste job from his earlier nonsensical tirades?
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 11:23
gotbeer's Avatar
gotbeer gotbeer is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,889
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 280/203/200 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 96%
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Default

Yes, I think so.

I found it interesting that the normally conservative National Review would publish such a pro-government-bureaucracy editorial - after all, Fumento is espousing the same flawed advice the government has been pushing on the American people for the last 25 years. The success of Atkins is a triumph for freedom and literally egg on the face of federal regulators.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 13:01
mnbooger's Avatar
mnbooger mnbooger is offline
Contributing Member
Posts: 92
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 302/350/150 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: -32%
Location: Shakopee,Minnesota
Default

I just don't understand those studies, 6 months only losing 13 pounds, I lost that in 2 weeks of induction. If the avg weight was 290 what were they doing wrong?? I know not everyone loses that fast but look around the TDC most of the people that started early this year have dropped much more than 20 pounds, some of us over 60. I just don't get it.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 13:07
gotbeer's Avatar
gotbeer gotbeer is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,889
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 280/203/200 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 96%
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Default

We chose this diet, but those studied were randomly assigned to it, and hence, have a lower level of "buy-in". Furthermore, participation in this forum indicates a passionate level of commitment for most of us.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 14:21
cc48510 cc48510 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,018
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 320/220/195 Male 6'0"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: Pensacola, FL
Default Re: "Hopeless Fad: Sorry, the Atkins diet still doesn’t work."

Quote:
Originally posted by gotbeer
Nutritionists have long said that any fad diet can shed weight quickly, but the pounds are soon regained. Now two studies in a prestigious medical journal have caused a media maelstrom. They show that the Atkins regimen can shed weight quickly . . . but the pounds are soon regained. Fad diets still don't work.


ATKINS IS NOT A FAD-DIET !!!! I would define a fad diet as one that is intended to be temporary and requires unreasonable restrictions. By that definition...in addition to the obvious: grapefruit, juice, and slim fast...low-calorie, low-fat, and weight watchers could probably be considered fad diets.

Quote:
Both studies appeared in The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), with each randomly dividing subjects into two groups. In each study, one group was told to reduce caloric intake while the other wasn't expressly told to cut calories, but rather instructed to keep carbohydrate intake extremely low as dictated by the late Dr. Robert Atkins's books.


As another user pointed out: they were ASSIGNED to a diet. No diet is one size fits all. There are carb addicts and fat addicts. If you stick someone (who loves meat) on a vegetarian diet...he will quit. Same goes if you tell a carb addict to reduce his carbs without addressing the addiction.

Quote:
The average loss was a mere 13 pounds from that original 290.


This is the reason I have always questioned that study...13 pounds in 12 months ??? I know my weight loss is faster than many people...but, every Atkins dieter I've met (whose been on the diet for at least 3 months) has lost more than 13 pounds.

Quote:
Further, the 12-month study indicates even that was probably a doomed effort. Here again, the Atkins group lost considerably more weight for the first half year. But thereafter not only did it begin packing the pounds back on, it did so faster than the higher-carb group. Ultimately, concluded the researchers, "the differences were not significant at the end one of year."


That conclusion was flawed...the difference was over 60%. In terms of hard numbers, a 5 pound difference isn't much. But, when reviewed relative to the low-fat dieters who I believe lost only 8 pounds in that same time period...It is very significant.

I heard somewhere, but can't confirm it...that the 12 month was a followup...and that the actual main part only lasted the initial 6 months. What that would mean, if true is that they let them go after 6 months and most went off the diet. This makes sense as they were probably just doing it for the money anyways (medical studies usually pay money).

Quote:
"The probable explanation" for the early weight loss, said the chief researcher of the 12-month study (Gary Foster of the University of Pennsylvania), is that it "gives people a framework to eat fewer calories, since most of the choices in this culture are carbohydrate driven." He told me: "You're left eating a lot of fat, and you get tired of that." So the Atkins plan is merely a low-calorie diet in disguise.


BULLSHIT !!! On a low-calorie/low-fat (1000-1500 kcal/day) diet, I lost 22 pounds in 6 months...most of which I attribute to cutting out soda (my doctor suggested it would help my reflux). On this diet (where I wat 2000-3000 kcal/day) I've lost almost 90 pounds in that same amount of time and I've still got a couple weeks before the 6th month anniversery to lose more.

Quote:
Soon though, Atkins dieters become so starved for carbohydrates that they either start cheating or quit the plan altogether. In fact, both studies were plagued by high dropout rates from all sets of dieters. The only weight-control regimens that work for life require both eating in moderation and exercise.


I'm not starved for carbs. But, there are some things that make a major difference for me. The first was my discovery of Stevia...something I didn't even know existed until a few months ago. It has taken care of my sweet tooth. If I'd known it existed back in 1997, I could probably have stayed off the soda forever.

I doubt these people knew about Stevia (which unlike Splenda is available in 0 Carb form in the US). Most were probably limited to water or at most whatever they could sweeten with 3 packets/day of Splenda (is that the correct number) that Atkins allows.

An occassional slice of Nature's Own Reduced-Carb bread is great for taking care of a craving for bread...I agree that Atkins is hard to do without some LC alternatives...but, you should be able to have an occasional LC treat...especially if it keeps you from cheating. With all the LC options out there now...there is no excuse for failure.

Quote:
"The Atkins diet produces weight loss, as does the grapefruit diet, the rotation diet, and every other fad diet out there," Foster's co-researcher James Hill of the director of the University of Colorado Center for Human Nutrition in Denver. "I haven't seen any data anywhere saying Atkins is better than these other diets for weight loss."


I can't eat only grapefruit for the rest of my life...but, I sure as hell can eat LC for the rest of my life. That is the difference.

Quote:
In addition to its something-for-nothing weight-loss promise, Atkins also insisted his diet relieves "fatigue, irritability, depression, trouble concentrating, headaches, insomnia, dizziness, joint and muscle aches, heartburn, colitis, premenstrual syndrome, and water retention and bloating" — in short, it does everything but walk the dog.


It does:

7 years of reflux/heartburn...GONE !!!
3 years of insomnia at night/fatigue during the day...GONE !!!
7 years of horrible Acne...ALOT BETTER THAN IT USED TO BE !!!

I haven't experienced the others...but, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have.

Quote:
The last of the five studies is from the University of Cincinnati, where co-author Randy Seeley of the university's Obesity Research Center says the Atkins cohort did have twice the weight loss at the end of the six months. But his explanation is similar to Foster's, if more colorful. "If you're only allowed to shop in two aisles of the grocery store, does it matter which two they are?" he asks.


LOL...Not if those two aisles happen to be the flour/sugar aisle and the pasta/bread/soda aisle. At one store I shop at...Rice, Pasta, Sugar, and flour all on ONE AISLE. Soda is on the end-cap and the next aisle over is almost entirely candy, chocolate, and such. Shopping those 1-2 aisles put 100 pounds on me...most of which doing Atkins...(6-8 aisles not 2) has taken off.

Quote:
As to HDL, he says, not all HDL is created equal. Just as we once thought all cholesterol was bad, there is now evidence that some "good" HDL may not be good after all.


Figures...they would say something like that. Show some proof...the increase was of the bad variety and not the good variety and I might listen. Until then...I call BULLSHIT.

Quote:
The Atkins Center was overjoyed that the new studies may indicate the regimen isn't dangerous. How peculiar when the most you can say for the best-selling fad-diet book of all time is that it probably doesn't kill people.


He knew all along his diet didn't hurt people...They are overjoyed that what he said all along has been proven and that more and more people are beginning to use his diet.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 17:33
Angeline's Avatar
Angeline Angeline is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,423
 
Plan: Atkins (loosely)
Stats: -/-/- Female 60
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Default

Good rebuttal CC, but you are preaching to the choir here

Did you send a copy of your email to the author ? His address is

fumento~pobox.com
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Fri, Jun-06-03, 21:55
Qball Qball is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 40
 
Plan: T-dawg
Stats: 240/200/195 Male 72 in
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Knoxville, TN
Default

It's a conspiracy by the "sickness" industry to keep people that way. If folks actually quit eating the poisons they push they would go bankrupt. That's why their arguments are so ridiculous. They're scared sh*tless that LC will catch on. Their fortunes depend on your ignorance.

Keep doing what you do. Bankrupt the crooks!
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Sat, Jun-07-03, 07:23
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
Default

With such poor results from either diet, I'd be willing to bet that neither group got much in the way of education OR support. They were probably handed a "diet sheet" and told "Follow this and come back for follow up on these dates."
Also...as cc pointed out, if you don't choose it for yourself, compliance isn't going to be as good as if you had and are committed to it. Even those that choose low carb often quit, so how much more so for those that are "assigned" to it randomly and then don't receive any sort of education or support.
Regaining the weight over a 6 month period = "I said to hell with it and went off the diet"
I'd also be interested in knowing what level of carb intake the low carb group was allowed or kept at. 20 grams for 6 months to a year can get pretty monotonous no matter how creative you are in the kitchen.
Regardless of the weight loss issue, they still gloss over the fact (or discount it with unproven theory) that the cardiac profiles of the low carb group improved far more than the low fat group and the whole idea behind low fat isn't necessarily weight loss but "it will make you healthier"...NOT!

I think Fumuento is still torqued because Taubes ripped his rebuttal on the "What if it's all been a big fat lie" article to shreds and is still looking for a way to "prove" he was right after all.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jun-07-03, 08:22
jude's Avatar
jude jude is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 946
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 182/147/145 Female 65"
BF:
Progress: 95%
Location: Innisfil, Ontario
Default

How long is it going to take for those knuckle-brained idiots to admit the obvious--that no matter what diet you're on, regaining weight is a given if you go back to eating "normally"? (which is what every low cal dieter can't wait to do!)

And if former lowcarbers gain back faster, doesn't that confirm just how bad carbohydrates are?

I'm so thankful that lowcarb is (and always will be) my "normal" way of eating!

judy
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Sun, Jun-08-03, 08:40
nelso117 nelso117 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 65
 
Plan: Atkin's
Stats: 205/205/175 Male 6'0"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Default

It's amazing that how hard it is for people to see past the lies that have been said for years. We're all crazy to not see that cookies, crackers, chips, donuts, cake, and frozen pizzas are what is good for you....now gooooo buuuuyyyy soooommmmeee. what a crock!
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-03, 14:07
BuffaloSue's Avatar
BuffaloSue BuffaloSue is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 61
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 313/300/145 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Charleston, SC
Default

This was in today's HSI email:

Quote:
..and another thing

You may have heard how the Atkins diet succeeded in
two "controlled" trials, as reported last month in the New
England Journal of Medicine (NEJM). An HSI member named Adam
heard, and sent these comments:

"It is a shame that the results of the study shows no weight
change after a year. There are too many drop outs for the
statistics to be non biased. Would like to see your
comments."

While the results of these studies had their drawbacks, the
details are not as negative as Adam seems to think.

Both studies (from the University of Pennsylvania) compared
the Atkins high-protein diet to a high-carbohydrate/low-fat
diet in obese subjects. In both trials (one lasted 6 months,
and the other a year) the Atkins groups lost more weight than
the high-carb groups. In the year-long study, participants of
both groups gained back some of their initial weight loss.
The authors of the study called the differences between the
final net weight losses of the two groups "statistically
insignificant." And that's true. But in the end, the Atkins
group lost more than the high-carb group.

This may not sound like a resounding success, but it's a
success just the same. Because until just recently very few
mainstream nutrition or dietary experts would have ever
imagined that in a one-year controlled trial a high-protein
diet could succeed over a low-fat diet. "Low fat equals good
health" has been the mainstream mantra for more than 20
years, but with these studies and others, that mantra is
being challenged like never before.

And while it's true that there were dropouts in each of the
groups in both studies (as there are in virtually all long-
term dietary trials - especially with obese subjects), the
dropouts were not so many that the test results were
invalidated.

Beyond the fact that the Atkins diet clearly bested the high-
carb diet, these equally important results stand out as well:
In the one-year trial, the Atkins group had a significantly
greater increase in HDL cholesterol, and their triglyceride
levels decreased more than in the high-carb group. Similar
results occurred in the 6-month trial, with the Atkins group
showing greater triglyceride reduction and increased insulin
sensitivity compared to the other group.

I think we're so used to seeing wild claims on TV ads ("I
lost 50 pound in two days!") that the results of a
controlled, year-long trial like this may not seem
impressive. In fact, these are very important mainstream
successes for a diet that was almost universally dismissed by
the nutritional establishment for 30 years.

Somewhere Dr. Atkins is smiling.

To Your Good Health,

Jenny Thompson
Health Sciences Institute
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-03, 23:13
gtarent gtarent is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 71
 
Plan: Eades
Stats: 278/236/181
BF:44%/33%/14%
Progress: 43%
Default

I really can't stand Fumento. He seems to have some kind of grudge against Atkins and against Taubes, perhaps from the dressing down Taubes gave him. I just don't seem to understand most of his anti atkins logic... for example
1) He calls Atkins a fad diet because much of the weight was regained in one of these studies. Thus a low fat diet must also be a fad diet, since they also regained some weight? I believe to get a true example they need to do a study with committed dieters... maybe some of our group. I am sure the results would be much more dramatic for both groups... and the true advantage of Atkins would shine.
2) He explaines away improved HDL numbers by saying it was caused by increased weight loss.... the same weight loss he dismissed as insignificant
3) He sums up the studies by basically saying all Atkins had proved was that his diet was not dangerous... First this is a huge success since most dieticians still try to tell us this way of eating will clog our arteries and destroy our kidneys. Second Fumento still is ignoring the facts... even though the Atkins numbers are dismal (in my opinion 13 lbs in 6 months 6 lbs in 12 months ) but they still are better than the low fat numbers. He can try to explain better HDL numbers any way he wants (so now there is a good and bad version of "good" cholestorol???) yet the fact remains Atkins numbers were better.

Come on Fumento... repeat after me... Atkins numbers were better... no no buts... Atkins numbers were better
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I found this info on Dr. Ellis Ultimate Diet Secrets, in case you are interested. Eveee Low-Carb War Zone 22 Tue, Jan-13-04 20:45
Fad Diets in India: "Do or Die-t" gotbeer LC Research/Media 2 Wed, Jul-23-03 14:50
When did the low-fat 'fad' start? CarbJunky2 General Low-Carb 3 Tue, May-27-03 17:08
Fad Diets of 1980s fern2340 LC Research/Media 0 Sat, Aug-04-01 12:10


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:30.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.