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Old Tue, Apr-24-18, 11:03
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teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Protein-->carbs is sort of a loaded issue. I do try to get not too much more protein than my requirement in the interests of maintaining ketosis, I find I have more energy, better mood and weight maintenance that way. But I think in the interests of not overdoing protein, it makes sense to go with higher quality protein. Filling the diet with lower quality proteins could make the total requirement of protein for maintenance and repair of lean tissue effectively higher--increasing the total intake of gluconeogenic amino acids. I'm not sure that would result in higher overall glucose production, but it likely makes the diet less ketogenic.

There's an idea out there that gluconeogenesis is demand- rather than substrate-driven, with the claim that increasing dietary protein won't result in much of an increase in glucose production. I think that's a little bit flawed when you look at some of the clinical experience from people administering the ketogenic diet as an adjunct cancer therapy or for epilepsy, there reducing protein is reported to result in lower blood sugar. Also in the rodent studies, they find it's necessary to reduce protein as well as carbohydrate to induce much in the way of ketosis. In starvation unquestionably gluconeogenesis becomes dependent on available substrate, the question is how close to mimicking starvation metabolism does somebody have to be to make that start being an issue?

I heard Jimmy Moore in a recent podcast claim that a feeling of hypoglycemia that he experienced two hours after eating 120 grams of protein must have been the result of a glucose spike from gluconeogenesis triggering an insulin response, I've seen this explanation before from people who ought to know better, eat protein, make glucose, that explains the insulin response to protein. Doesn't work that way, the insulin response to amino acids is a little more direct, although it does depend quite a bit on glucose levels, higher glucose equals a ramped up response to the amino acids.

Also there's the question of the effect of habitual diet on levels of gluconeogenesis on a keto diet, gluconeogenesis isn't a rapid process, more like a slow-drip supply of glucose/recharging of glycogen stores, I haven't really seen anything that addresses this. Just studies looking at the effect of one protein meal, that says nothing about habitual protein intake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU

Good talk on this.

Quote:
Dr. Benjamin Bikman - 'Insulin vs. Glucagon: The relevance of dietary protein'
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