Dietary carbohydrates could lead to osteoarthritis, new study finds
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80809112417.htm
The carbs being accused here are sugar and insoluble fiber (cellulose). Quote:
Fiber? Quote:
http://dmm.biologists.org/content/d...034827.full.pdf Okay, cellulose. There's a study called "A ketogenic diet results in a unique metabolic state in mice" or some such that had to be restarted six months in when the mice on the ketogenic diet were dying too early--switching from cellulose to wheat middlings allowed the animals to live long enough for the purposes of the study. Another study looked at 25 different diets, of varying macronutrient ratios and calorie density. Calorie density was controlled by varying amounts of cellulose. Regardless of macro ratio, the low density, high cellulose mice all died early, the most obviously interesting finding. So the headline was based on a mild effect of varying carb/protein content. :lol: Celery isn't in my diet right now, but for the record, I'm not that paranoid about eating it or not eating it. |
The idea in this study that the benefit of soluble fiber might at least in part be due to what the soluble fiber replaces is interesting. To keep caloric density the same, cellulose is a convenient ingredient for the control diet, so if there's an ill effect of cellulose in mouse chow on the gut, that's a problem when looking at benefits of soluble fiber.
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80808134241.htm
Just to balance things out, here's a wonderful bit about using cellulose nanofibers to promote healthful fat malabsorption. Quote:
If you don't want to absorb fat, how about not eating the bloody stuff? I continue to concentrate on taking in nutrients in hopes that they'll nourish my body. Quote:
None of this makes it safe. Nor does "chemical" make something dangerous. The exciting thing is that this will be good for marketing. |
You're funny!!!
The cellulose deaths-- no mention of the need for specific microbes that are needed to digest that stuff. Termites can handle it but otherwise, I can see it is a problem with out help to digest it. AND maybe the change in th gut microbes is what killed the mice-- who knows. By the end, I didnt understand the effect of the cellulose on the joints. Can you paraphrase for me, again. |
Basically there were markers of stress in the high cellulose group, whether they were high sugar or not.
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I don't know the exact relevance of these to osteoarthritis. Also; Quote:
When it comes down to it--this study doesn't actually show any effect of cellulose on the joints, since there's no cellulose-free control group. They're just hypothesizing based on other research that cellulose might be responsible for unexpected pathology in the control group. |
OK. GOt it.
My concern with the cellulose goes back to the effect on the GI microbes and their possibly protective effect on how they could digest the cellulose. Maybe someday that study will be done. |
In ruminants, a lot of this happens in the stomach, entirely different part of the gut. Maybe there's a reason things developed that way?
I would bet that comparable amounts of cellulose from celery would be harmless. Freeze dried vs. fresh celery might be an interesting study. Problem is, once it's not pure cellulose, you don't know if it's that cellulose in celery is harmless (if that's the case) or if something else in the celery negates the effects. |
All pertinent.
The ruminants have a HUGE first sac of the GI, and a seive that keps larg partiles from moving out and into the remaining GI, like the true stomache like we have. The microbes in that vat are critical to the digestion of all kinds of fibrous material, along with rechewing their cud, lots of saliva. The right microbes in the right proportions make this work. Monogastrics cannot process nearly so much fibrous material; limited digestion in the GI tract compared to the ruminants. Some animals like bunnies have a big cecum to act as a rumen. Our appendix is useless cecum. I dont know about mice and rats. Will need to research them. Im not convinced cellulose is a good food choice for humans. PS. I raise sheep, a ruminant, for ovr 30 years. |
The theory that fiber can be isolated as the cause of OA is as weak as it can get. When I stopped consuming grains, the pain in my finger joints, particularly when waking in the morning, went away. Forever. Yes, fiber is present in grains as are other toxins. It's folly to think they're on the road to isolating a single substance as the root cause. But hey, if they're funded, they'll do the study regardless of how poorly it's designed.
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They can isolate whether supplemental cellulose, or at least cellulose incorporated into ketogenic pelleted mouse chow, is harmful. At least of potential concern to those eating the massive food pellets we call protein bars. :lol:
Massive distrust is probably warranted, through. A bit of veggies next to or on top of or even mixed in to a burger is a far cry from cellulose included in a "purified" chow diet. |
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I have OD's on Atkins bars. Cant eat only one. ANd the results were disturbing.... of the GI, that is. Carbohydrates come in many forms as you know. Cellulose and lignan require specialized digestion, and as us humans are not in that catagory, limited amounts would be prefered by the GI. Us humans dont eat grasses because of the cellulose and lignan content unless it is juicing wheat grass---which effectivley removes both. Eating our salads provides small amounts......very small compared to what a ruminant eats. BUT we still need a way to process it. |
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Just easier to dump the grains. I am interested in any cross over by eating our ducks and chickens that eat th grains.....that study is 100 years away. But as you said the evidence is weak. Which leads me to thinking about other related causes, if any, that could be in the realm of the microbes that feed on the cellulose. In the ruminants, ( I am recalling from a grad class over 30 years ago) the dairy cattle are fed food stuffs to feed the microbiome of the rumen. The by-products like butyerate, which I cannot spell anymore, is transformed and is a component in raw milk and then into the dairy products we eat. More and more evidence is stacking up against humans eating grains. This study is too shaky to count. |
I've sometimes wondered if dairy might make my arthritis worse. I know it can make my muscles spasm and I think it also makes my joints hurt more. :-(
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Beef is my grain filtration system . . . :cool:
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A mixed bag of reactions. While the effects of the grains itsef might be mitigated, the new product might have new components that are problematic Dairy could be problematic in the A1 vs A2 proteins. Or lactose. Beef--- Im unfamiliar with any allergies to beef.
THough I do know some of the feed compoenents do transfer into the beef and milk. Dairy operations need to be careful about some weeds that are poisonous in the milk. ANd the glycosphate, not sure of spelling, is used to speed the the drying of the grain heads and has been found in breast fed children. That is not a grain component itself, but an addative during harvesting. Lots of options to knock us off our rockers. Or the plant chemicals that are eaten and transfered into the milk. There |
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