That was my initial problem too Elfie. Eggs and bacon are too lean, who woulda thunk it. I switched to sausage sometimes, that helps. Also if I add cream or cream cheese to the eggs and scramble them I can get in some fat. Also sometimes I have a hot dog, a good fatty beef and pork one.

With the lunch you mentioned I would have potato fried in butter and lard and maybe a half cup of green beans with butter. I can get in more fat that way.

Potato...I wish.

If I understand everything I'm reading, I'm a small boned short woman so I take my 54kg and multiply times 1:2:.5 (apparently after the first 3-4 weeks I can increase the fats to 2.5-3.5). This means I can have 54gm protein, 108gm of fat and 27gm of carbs and my total daily calories should be around 1376.

Not sure how I could figure in 15 carbs just for one small potato and still get the vegies I want...and I'm still trying to figure out how to get all those fats!

This is going to take a bit more planning than Atkins...sure hope it's worth it because after a month of being diligent with my meals and walking 5k every day at a brisk pace, I'm a bit ticked off that I don't weigh any less than I did a month ago!

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You would stay at 2:1 fat:protein as long as you are overweight. It's just that after the first 3-4 weeks your stored fat would be flowing better, as I understand it.

I also use the .8 for carbs because I don't feel well with under 40g of carb. His book has both - confusing and we can't ask. :(

What's your heart rate for that brisk walk?

I did better when I made sure my heart rate was no higher than 70% of heart rate max, or just 110 beats per minute. That is a very slow walk at my size! Any more and I'm pretty sure I was getting into sugar-burning, cortisol, and inflammation like Mark Sisson talks about in "Chronic Cardio."

I am 5'2" and medium boned. Or maybe small, who knows, i have never been small . :)

Well, I'm a bit larger than you I guess, as my protein is supposed to be around 66g. But I don't always make it. I don't fuss over getting the numbers right on the nose, but try to be close. I don't mind if the protein goes a little bit over, but I don't like it to go MUCH over or it affects my blood sugar. I've been tracking all my food on MY PLAN for the last couple weeks now, and I find it a very useful tool. I can actually see my ratios. For example yesterday I hit:

Protein: 81g
Fat: 160g
Carb: 47g (17g fiber)

Day before it was:
Protein: 65g
Fat: 135g
Carb: 49g (11g fiber)

I don't like to go much above 80g in protein. So far today, through lunch, I'm at:
Protein: 26g
Fat: 71g
Carb: 23g (Fiber 6g)

As you can see the protein is still low, but the fat is up quite a bit higher, and that's fine with me. I don't worry about a 1:2 ratio before protein and fat, and if it goes to 1:3 or even higher that's okay too.

Are you diabetic? If not I thought JK recommended a .8 ratio for carb rather than .5, which would give you 43g of carbs if you followed that - plenty of room for a small potato! I've been having small potatoes every day the last few days - usually pan-fried in butter.

And even if you *are* a diabetic, well so am I and the OD is doing wonders for my blood sugars, even at somewhat higher carb levels.

As a side note, my scale hit a new LOW this morning. I'm psyched. I hit 260 this morning, 112 down, and I think those 250s are really right around the corner, and my blood sugars are still looking great.

I know this may sound counterintuitive, but it might pay to STOP walking so much. Brisk exercise every day has been a known staller for many people in the past.

I never do my heart rate when I'm walking. I just know what 'feels' good. I know I'm below my target heart rate (according to the charts) because if I work at that level, I have problems with my blood sugar crashing. It takes me about 17 minutes to walk a mile and I'm aiming for a 15 minute mile and I can carry on a conversation with my husband (who walks with me). At the end of that time, I feel fantastic.

I'm 5'3 and small boned by the way. At 330 pounds I could barely walk across the living room. Now at 223, I'm thrilled to be walking 5k every day although I still have to say I find it mind numbing boring. :(

.

I'll admit I haven't checked the protein grams (probably kinda high), but the most satiating breakfast I've found is a burger with a fried egg on top. It's delicious, too. :yum:

Hi Debbie,
Yes I am a diabetic. Curious why the increase in carbs for diabetics since it's the carbs that drive my blood sugar up. On Atkins, my blood sugars lower automatically as I rid myself of the carbs.

Ooooo...an excuse not to walk!? Woohoo! Seriously, I've never exercised in the past on Atkins and the weight just fell off. Now that I'm walking, I'm not losing? So much for the calories in/calories out (expended) theories.

.

This regime may suit me more than it suits others: I am pretty fit and active and do intense gym workouts three times a week. This gives me me an unusually large muscle mass for my age and this needs maintenance. I'm not recommending my meals for others in other circumstances. I also have my own hens and am presently collecting 25-30 eggs a week that I have to eat.

There may be other aspects of diet which have an effect on health and well-being, not just the macronutrient ratios. My wife (61) is obese and was never able to lose weight and also had serious sleep apnea and very loud snoring. Back in July she had a blood test for 94 possible food allergies and intolerances. She was surprised (and disappointed!) to find that she is intolerant - to varying degrees on a scale of 1 to 4 - to potatoes, chocolate, dairy products including cheese, wheat products, yeast, avocados, beef, metabisulphates (found in wine and used on non-organic dried fruit) and a food dye. She gave up all these products immediately and that very night her snoring reduced by about 80% and her sleep apnea disappeared completely. I was amazed - and delighted to get a complete night's sleep myself!

She's also losing weight relatively easily and finds sticking to a diet much easier than it ever was in the past.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but it appears that I'm also supposed to calculate my daily calories which are based on my protein/fat/carb ratios. Yet some people talk about eating 2000-3000 calories while mine calculate out to about 1300. Could someone clarify? Thanks!

.

I've gone the whole food allergy testing route and am happy to say I don't have any. I did have sleep apnea which completely disappeared after losing 100 pounds.

I'm starting this Optimal Health diet this morning and will see what results I get over the next month. I've been on Atkins for a month and as of this morning I've gained yet another pound. This has never happened to me before on Atkins and I don't understand it.

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I never did buy either of the Kwasniewski books as they were rather expensive - but there was certainly a lot of talk about this earlier in the thread! And all of that made it seem that the OD was pretty flexible, and not a hard and fast number, which made a lot of the advice seem sort of conflicting. For example, JK has a clinic and Poland, and supposedly he has every patient there, regardless of age, sex, size, on a 3000-calorie a day diet. And of course that doesn't tie in with his protein requirements, or his ratios - so all that has to be pretty flexible too!

For me, it seems I pretty much *need* to keep my protein at about his ideal level to control my blood sugar. It's finally sinking into my thick head! I resisted it for a while (like a year or more? :lol: ) as I really *like* my protein, and being able to have a nice big juicy steak or a thick hamburger with bacon and cheese seemed like one of the perks of being low carb! But it doesn't seem to work with my blood sugar. :(

And if I stuck to the 1:2:.5 ratio that works out to 66g protein (264 calories), 33g of carb (132 calories) and 132g of fat (1188 calories) or 1584 calories a day. But I'll be honest I would find 1584 hard to live with. I mean I don't need *tons* more than that. But since being back on the OD my calories have been running from about 1700 to 2100 daily. I'm *trying* to keep the protein about on the mark, but I've been leaning more towards the 0.8 ratio for the carbs, and 2.5 to 3 for the fat, so my ratio is actually more like 1:2.5:.8.

But I think JK does talk about being able to eat more calories if the body is healing, etc. And I *am* losing weight, slowly, and I hit a new all-time low (well "all-time for this LC go-round, which began in 2006) yesterday. And best of all has been my blood sugar control. I have been struggling with that - and I kept avoiding the fact that the last time I did the OD I was getting BG readings down in the 80s. But after I went off the OD I never saw that again - and struggled to even get below 110, or even below 120, and my morning FBG number was always way higher than I liked.

But this week my BG numbers have been consistently in the 80s during the day, and PP numbers are averaging lower than my *low* numbers were when I was still enjoying all the protein I wanted. Yesterday my FBG was 97. I have not seen a reading below 100 since I last was on the OD, and certainly never for FBG!

Last night I had a potato and leek 2-egg frittata for dinner, with shredded cheddar on top. I added a lot of sour cream to the fritatta to bring up the fat numbers. My protein for the day hit 65g, just about right on the money for my perfect numbers. My one-hour PP reading was 114, my 2-hour PP reading was 101. By bedtime I was at 87 again, and this morning my FBG was 77! :eek: Who'd a thunk that cutting protein and adding starches would do that.

But the bottom line, I think, is JK doesn't feel people should be hungry either, and if you are you should eat. But basically I would feel go light on the protein increases, rely more on upping the fat, and possibly the carbs a bit too. JK does seem to feel that if you have to eat carbs the starches are the least problematic for the body to handle - which goes contrary to just about all the LC preceived wisdom, but I'm beginning to feel that way myself. Got a bunch of new sweet potatoes and winter squash in my CSA order yesterday, and looking forward to trying them out. :D

I just bumped up the main Kwasniewski thread - all 61 pages of it! There is *tons* of discussion there about calorie counts, ratios, etc. An incredible wealth of information.

I may have to re-read through the thread again, but THAT thread is where most of all the good information is found. In particular look at any of the postings by 'Pangolina'. She was the real expert on exactly what the OD entailed. But she stopped posting here when she left to have a baby, and not sure I have seen her back at all!

That is encouraging to hear about your wife--is she doing the optimal diet with no or limited dairy?

Thank you, Debbie! I'd still like to lose another 100 pounds although I'll stop at whatever looks and feels good on me. Right now I'm more concerned with getting the blood sugar under control...and without meds (hopefully). Your numbers give me hope.

Thanks for bumping the other thread!

Melody

Holy mackerel!! Normally, my BS right before lunch is around 140-170 lately even on low carb (under 30gm) on Atkins.

This morning, instead of 2 eggs and 2 slices of bacon, I ate 1 egg, 2 tsp butter and 6 sl bacon. Just took my BS reading and it's 114! I'll be interested to see what it is after lunch since I don't dare take my Humalog for fear of dropping too low. I hope this is a good sign!

Melody

Elfie, I don't count calories. I do count grams of protein, carb, and fat. When I look up the calories in Fitday it's between 1300-1500.

Debbie like you sometimes I go over the protein if I have a hungry day. 75 instead of 65.

I think when I have too much protein I can't lose either. I think it's because my body is super, super good at gluconeogenesis after so many years of protein and sugar burning (I was never ever one of those low protein carb eaters). So excess protein gets turned into fuel very well - and I don't need that.

Not OD or Groves - she just can't bring herself to welcome fat. She's using a standard low-calorie protocol - no special tricks or named diet; just avoiding the food to which she's been shown to be intolerant.

Please post the weblink (URL) to that discussion.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=394198

I started the OD on Wednesday and, despite BG going down, am moving back to Atkins, at least temporarily. Nothing against the OD but it takes more time than I have right now to plan my menus to make sure I'm within the right ratios. I'm in the process of remodeling my kitchen (which sadly includes replacing some rotten wood in our support walls) while trying to run a business and getting ready for the holidays.

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Good luck, Elfie. I hope this thread (or the other thread ) stays alive. It's too bad many folks get discouraged by number crunching. I don't bother with it if I'm too busy - using my rules of thumb is usually good enough, and I find that when I do plug the numbers into Fitday, they work out most of the time. Close enough for government work, as they say. Besides, how could Kwasneiwski's precise ratios work for everyone, anyway, with all of our individual variations in metabolism?

My extremely simplified rules:
- Cut protein servings in half... literally. Half a can of tuna, half of a large burger patty, half of a pork chop, 3 egg yolks instead of 3 whole eggs, etc.
- Ample fat, preferably animal in nature. Throw a little extra cream in the coffee, butter on just about everything else, etc.
- Have a starch for the SO and steal some. A few bites of a potato or banana. That type of deal.

Mind you, I DO usually have the time and inclination to plan foods ahead of time and achieve the ratios. I'm certainly not dismissing the real Kwasneiwski plan. That's just a suggestion of what I often do. Maybe it's helpful to newbies who would otherwise dismiss it as "too complicated."

Hi Kristine,
I'll still be checking into this thread as the OD has made me more aware of how protein has been affecting my BG so I won't be throwing it all away and perhaps, after we finish the remodeling, I'll be less overwhelmed with everything that's going on in my life and go back to it.

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Kristine - over 14,000 posts! That's very generous of you - so many people must have benefited!

I would suggest that although Kwasniewski puts precise numbers to his ratios (1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.5), remember there is a very broad range for the fats in those numbers and on pages 17-18 of Optimal Nutrition he gives other ratios for people in different circumstances. I reckon your "simplified rules" are spot on! My own diet is Palaeo, but I have begun loading in the fat and reducing the protein a little. I probably won't take my carbs up to the recommended OD proportion.

Golden thread, I will try cutting protein to 60g or so per day. I may have been way over-consuming protein into the region of about 150g per day, I checked a small packet of salmon fillets yestarday, something which I would normally consume at dinner, never mind other meals during the day, and those salmon fillets already had 52g of protein!

I have found that after a while, I know pretty much how much I can have of various foods. I make every attempt to log all that I eat, just because doing so helps to keep me on track. But if I go a bit over or under on the protein or carb, I don't give it much thought. The fact is, even weighing and measuring everything, we're still estimating most of the time. If I have some rotisserie chicken, for example, the macro breakdown would depend on exactly how much skin, white, and dark meat I eat, so I'd have to weigh them all out separately. That's not going to happen.

For the most part, I use a system similar to Kristine's: That is, I eat about half as much protein as I would have had before, and I make a conscious effort to increase the fat. I sometimes use rice cakes to add a bit of carb to a meal, but usually I have a bunch of mixed veg sauteed in coconut oil. And once again, I have to estimate what that comes to.

Ubizmo

True, we just do the best we can and know we will never be totally spot on. I *have* been trying to weight and measure everything lately, just to get on track and keep a relatively accurate food long here on MyPlan. But it's never possible to be perfect. And a couple times I have eaten away from home when I just had to "guesstimate" my portions - and just made the best guess I possibly could. :D

But I'm having a better feel now for allowable protein portions sizes (small, damn it) - and finding the last couple days that I actually should probably bump up the fat a bit. But I'm enjoying the food, and my scale dropped a little bit again today to another new low.

Need help I'm really struggling to keep protein portions at around 60g per day while keeping carbs at 40g aswell. It doesnt help that in London in UK most foods are still low fat.

Ive had to drastically cut my meat portions in order to keep protein at 60g, and now cream is making up a large portion of my calories. Now I see how its extremely hard to buy fatty meat here in london.

Hello kindke, do you have any ethnic shops where you might be able to purchase meat, such as Asian or Polish? I find that the regular markets here have the meat so trimmed of fat, also. Best of luck.