Cardio Before or After Weights?

[kascalia]

:wave: hi all I thought It would be fun to take a poll on which is more preferred. Cardio before or after weights?

[Suni]

I like cardio before weights - it "warms" up my muscles so I don't experience injuries. At our gym we do a circuit class: a few minutes warm up and stretching - 5 minutes of intense cardio then onto a weight station for 1 - 2 minutes, then back to cardio for 3 minutes then onto a different weight station. One day the weights will be for the lower half and the second session of the week we do upper body weights. At the end we do a 5 minute cardio cool-down. With the Schwarzbein WOE - I can actually see some definition in my arms and shoulders - WOW! I am soooooo pleased! ANd I feel GREAT! Bonus! :hyper:

[Piano]

I do cardio on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays & weights on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays. I usually put in Pilates in the evenings when I get a chance. I am also seeing some muscle definition. :D

[HollyAyott]

I do circut training every day (except sundays) which is a combination of both at the same time. every other day after the circut I add additional weight training in isolated areas (i.e hard to target under arms inner thighs lower back)

[Akiwican]

This is a hot debate question at our gym. I'm with the cardio after weights group. I enjoy the weights part more so get right into it when I get to the gym. If I run out of time at the end I cut my cardio down a bit. I usually do about 30 mins cardio HIIT.

:wave: Lesley

[RodeRash]

If you are trying to add muscle, do your weights first. If you do your cardio first, you can use up your available muscle glycogen, and your weight lifting will suffer.

[nikkil]

Love your new avatar, RoadRash--much nicer than your old one. What WAS that in your teeth, anyway??

N.

[RodeRash]

Love your new avatar, RoadRash--much nicer than your old one. What WAS that in your teeth, anyway??

LOL. Sorry, but that's not me, That picture came from a Dutch motorcycle magazine. Those are bugs. (very low carb) :roll:
Yet another reason to always wear a helmet when you ride.

[nikkil]

sorry I spelled you name wrong, RODErash!!

Glad you haven't resorted to bugs for protein ;)

[kascalia]

:daizy:
Wow this is really a preferrence. Either way cardio before or after they both have their ups and downs.
I used to do cardio after weights and lately I have switched it around. I;m not sure which way I like better yet :confused: They both seem to do the same for me. I still lift the same amount of weight. :p no down fall yet for me on doing cardio before. I really does wake you up.

[nix]

for me cardio 1st; if i do the weights first I get lazy and skimp the cardio
the weights are like the "dessert"....

:)
nix

i've read and heard so much about cardio vs weights lately; actually this instructor at my gym told me if i really wanted to loose weight to lay off the weights;

whoah nelly don't get in a huff:

what she said was then to for example do the stairmaster or elliptical cardio machine instead of walking+leg weights, that would give the muscle training for me as well; do rowing instead of just walking and arm weights - it gets in the arm/back muscles.

thoughts?

[wwdimmitt]

I think that it has a great deal to do with your personal goals and expectations.

If your primary goal is to lose weight at the fastest rate possible, and to develop a "buffed", well defined, "body builder" kind of body, then the evidence is pretty clear that you should focus on anaerobic exercise, mostly free weight lifting designed to work specific muscle groups in planned sequences.

On the other hand, if your primary goal is to develop a body that is permanently lean and slim, that is flexible and mobile, that has the capability to work at a high rate of effort for hours on end, then the evidence is equally clear that you should focus mostly on aerobic exercise, especially walking fast, jogging, running, cross country skiing, rowing, and swimming, with some supplement of low weight, high rep weight lifting.

If you look at most of the world class athletes, like those in the Olympics, you don't see very many "body builder" types. Most are quite slender for their size, don't have massive biceps or thighs or shoulders, and rapid, sustained movement, in a coordinated fashion is their hallmark.

The same is true for rock climbers, mountain climbers, brick layers, cement workers. They tend to have slender limbs, but with muscles which are strong and can work for hours on end, day after day.

Probably for most of us, a combination of the two approaches is the best answer. For myself, I am much more interested in having a slender body, that can walk in tough terrain and cast flys for 12 hours a day, much more so than looking like a muscle beach guy. And that is why my Nordic Trak ski machine is the center of my exercise efforts, backed up by high rep weight lifting.

Decide what you want, and then go for it!!

Keep on, keepn' on! :wave:

[laurielake]

My trainer told me it was a matter of preference. If you want to have most of your energy for cardio, do cardio first. If you want to have most of your energy for weightlifting, do weightlifting first. (I lift weights first.) My 7 day routine includes a 4 day split w/cardio, 1 day cardio only and 2 days off.

[lkonzelman]

I am totally into weights right now with no interest in aerobics for the time being.

I think consistancy in exercise it the key to this stuff. WOL is the whole package not just what we are eating. So i'm sticking with what I seem to be enjoying and my body is changing for the better so I am happy with it.

[auntrobin]

I do the FRIM tape which combine both aerobics and weights. For some reason, I get better (faster) results this way.
Robin :wave:

[dex]

I'm a weights before cardio girl, myself.

Generally, I start with 5-10 minutes of light cardio--usually, cycling at a slow pace--and stretching to get warmed up a bit, and to loosen the muscles from being seated at the computer for most of the day (I work out at night). Then it's off to whatever sort of workout I have planned. Three days a week it's part-specific weights, twice a week abs, once a week is a total body circuit. After that, I get in my cardio effort for the night...on weight days that generally means light to moderate cardio, abs days are also HIIT days, and the circuit day incorporates light to moderate cardio.

That's actually a new routine for me. I used to follow a more BFL-like schedule, but changed for various reasons. But even then I followed my lifting with moderate cardio. I just find I can focus more energy and effort into my lifting if I haven't done cardio first. *shrug*

[SummerYet]

I don't do them on the same day...weights on Monday Wednesday Friday and Cardio Tuesday Thursday Saturday...

~Michelle

[sgb94]

Actually, I do a quick 7-10 minute cardio warmup (depending on how early I can get there) and have 1/2 with a weight trainer 2xs a week. Then I go back to cardio for anywhere from 20 - 35 minutes. Basically, I get 30 minutes cardio no matter what.

On other days I do mostly cardio (45 mins or so) and some extra streching, ab work or machines.


I'm trying for more fat loss than muscle build but I can tell a major difference in my strength and muscle tone. I've lost about 10 inches I think.


Selina

[rfred]

This first paragraph is also the first paragraph of a post I just made in another thread:

In ''The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution,'' by Fredrick Hahn, Dr. Michael R. Eades and Dr. Mary Dan Eades (those last two are the authors of "Protein Power"), the authors assert that resistance training of the type they advocate makes additional cardio work unnecessary. This is said in the context of getting fit and healthy, not specifically in the context of weight loss. My recent experience has been that I can walk up stairs more easily (i.e., without getting winded) after 3 months of Slow Burn work.

They explain it in more detail than I can, so I won't really try. But my experience has been positive. My wife and I have been using Slow Burn for about three months. We work out at home twice a week for about 45 minutes. Before Slow Burn, we were both using our Nordic Tracks 3 or 4 times weekly and working with low weights, high reps 3x weekly. My cardiovascular endurance and flexibility have improved since changing over.

[praxis3]

I goe weights before cardio. Thats mainly because i really do push myself out to exhaustion on the cardio and know i would not be able to manage the weights afterwards.

Cheers
Jason

[tink79]

I always do cardio first, at least 20-25 minutes to warm up my muscles... After that, the weights seem almost like my cool down period and I'm more pumped to keep up with the reps...

I get lazy if I don't do some sort of cardio beforehand.

[Caelda]

If I lift weights, it's usually prior to cardio. That's if I can. It depends on when I get to the gym, what's available when. :)

But now I tend to stay away from weights as I'm pretty muscular already and I just tend to bulk up more from weights. Right now my focus is on cardio.

[tagcaver]

A couple of years ago (before I tore my ACL and had knee surgery) I would jog for 30 minutes before I did weights. I would follow the jog with usually 20-30 minutes of weights, depending on how much energy I had left.

In the last 2 years I have switched to doing the weights first for at least 45 minutes. I then will get on the treadmill (or sometimes the elliptical or cycle) for at least 30 minutes. I don't jog as much, since after a while of jogging I start to experience some pain in my knee. But walking at 4 - 4.5 mph doesn't bother me and gives me an aerobic workout if I jog for a minute or two every so often during the walk.

The reason I switched was that when I was taking physical therapy after knee surgery the therapist had me do the weights first and then get on the elliptical and the treadmill. It's a habit I have just picked up and it seems to be working for me.

If I don't have the time to spend 2 hours at the gym, I will do weights if at the gym, and cardio if at home (I have a treadmill). But I do attempt to get some exercise every day.

Joan

[KittyKat2]

I am using the Firm Body Sculpting 3 Videos. They combine both cardio and weights. You get faster results this way. It seems to be working for me! It's amazing what one 45 minute workout can do! I love the Firm!

These are the three tapes I have:

Cardio Sculpting
Body Sculpting
Ab Sculpting

They use the Fanny Lifter.....If you're interested in trying these tapes check out my thread in this forum: 'The Firm Anyone?' :wave:

[Rachelstra]

rfred,

I have just read the slow burn book and was curious as to why you are working out 45 mins 2 times a week. I was just under the impression that you only needed to exercise every 5 days after a good 30 min workout. What are you and your wife doing during those 2 sessions a week.

Thx
Rach

[rhaazz]

I recently saw this article in e-diets that strongly urges us to do weights THEN cardio.

The idea is that during anaerobic exercise, your body can burn ONLY glocuose. (Aearobic exercise is anything that causes that "burn" because of lactic acid in your muscles -- that pain you feel when sprinting or lifting weights with few reps/high weight.

During aerobic exercise, by contrast, your body has a choice of fuel: glucose or fat.

If your body's glucose stores have been depleted from anaerobic exercise, your body has no choice but to burn fat.

Then again this gui was NOT doing the low carb thing. Theoretically, if we're low enough in our carbs, there might not be enough glucose available for our bodies to avoid burning fat.

(Scratches head.)

[C5Man]

I do not enjoy cardio so I do it first - otherwise I would blow it off or skimp on it if it came after my weight training.

[dncthomas]

I was told to do weights first so you can build muscle as you use 100% of your strenght whereas if you do cardio first you don't use as much. My preference is cardio first otherwise I am not as motivated to do as much.

Also, I think it depends on you. I need to loose more weight than others so I focus on cardio right now. After I get closer to goal I will begin weight training. Just to keep me motivated!

[RickinTN]

It has been a while since I have done weights. But, I do prefer to do cardio first

[pltrygeist]

Cardio--sprints 2 days a week
Weights--4-5 OTHER days a week.

I'm not sacrificing muscle by working out the same day of cardio. For me I can see a difference.

I disagree about the bodybuilders and athletics. Anyone who improves muscular tone with strength training can technically be a bodybuilder. In truth, most of the more successful endurance athletes (marathon runners and a few others excluded) benefit from incorporating strength training into their routine. Look at the olympians today and compare them to those of yesteryear. Big difference thanks in no small part to smarter use of the weight room.

I am of the opinion that cardio is actually not necessary for decent weight loss if circuit training or some other form of weight usage is done. In fact, I think dieters who do strength training benefit faster than those who do not.

Even men have to purposely work hard to gain pro bodybuilder level of muscularity. Very few have the genetics to grow very muscular without very intense workouts.

[soon2bthin]

I think you should alternate Cardio one day weights the next.

[climber45]

I also enjoy the firm tapes,I use about 8 of them,also throw in some pilates.and a few walking tapes.If I over do ,my blood sugars go up,so I keep it to 70-90 minutes a day.I think doing something different each day fools your body and makes it work harder

[tchrldy77]

I also agree w/ some of you. If I don't do my cardio first I will do less time on the eliptical machine. I do cardio everyday but I switch off doing weights one day then the next day doing floor exercises like crunches....etc.

[rfred]

Rachelstra said (way back in June -- sorry for the delay)
"I have just read the slow burn book and was curious as to why you are working out 45 mins 2 times a week. I was just under the impression that you only needed to exercise every 5 days after a good 30 min workout. What are you and your wife doing during those 2 sessions a week."

As I recall from the book and from comments on the message board belonging to Fred Hahn (http://pub83.ezboard.com/fseriousstrengthfrm1), one can improve one's condition working out once a week, but the optimum is twice a week. The book says 30 minutes, but we found that not to be realistic. We don't take breaks between exercises, but moving from one to the other takes a little time. In addition, the time we use can't be set for partial minutes, so we do each exercise for 2 minutes instead of 100 seconds. If you're in a gym and have a trainer changing settings on the machine for you and have the right timer, 30 minutes might be enough.

We do the set of exercises the book shows for home workouts, with a few minor variations. For instance, my wife does the bent-over rows (I don't think that's the name Slow Burn uses, but the same exercise), and I do lat pull-downs while she does one side and wrist curls while she does the second side. I've started doing dips while she does push-ups. I do calf raises one leg at a time, and my wife does both, but while I do my second leg, she does wrist curls. At the end, we've both added reverse wrist curls.

Are you still using Slow Burn? Results?

Ron

[mikebbz]

Ok listen up people! If you want to build muscle, do cardio after weight training. If you weight training after cardio, you must wait about 20 min, then weight train. What happens is that if you do cardio first, your heart rate is still up when you weight train, therefore it would be like cardio with resistance, thus your muscles won't get the full benefit from weight training. Your body burns more fat when you weight train, than cardio. Why? Cuz muscle is what burns fat!!!! So when you do weight training, your body is fat burning mode, it will then carry over when you do cardio!

[Trainerdan]

With the exception of AM fasted-state cardio, the answer is cardio after weights.

Besides the heart rate benefit mentioned above, there is a reason why your would burn more fat if you did cardio after weights ... Studies have shown that test subjects who did weights THEN cardio had a higher respitory exchange ratio than the test subjects who did cardio then weights ... It is a small difference, but it does show that your body is working harder and burning more fat with weights first followed by cardio.

Just wanted to toss in my 2 or 3 cents. :-)

[serrelind]

It used to be I would do cardio before weights, but for the past 3 months, I've changed the order -- weights before cardio. The reason is that my cardio is intense, and I need to conserve some energy for it. If I do the cardio first, I find myself feeling too pooped to put much of an effort into weights

[Frederick]

Hey Serre,

Also, a trainer at my gym and on some posts I read here believes doing weights before cardio would be optimal. Their reasoning is that weights will deplete our glycogen stored first, then cardio after would burn almost entirely fat.

That makes sense to me. So, for the last several months, I've done weights first, then cardio. Like you, weight training is pretty tough after an intense cardio session.

Take care,

Fred

[serrelind]

Hi Fred,
A recent trainer also told me I should do weights before cardio. And frankly, that's perfectly fine with me. I get easily bored with weights, so I need to get that out of the way first before I can enjoy my cardio session LOL.

It makes sense to do weights first since the primary reason for the cardio is to burn fat, and if the glycogen supply has been depleted with the weight session, then the body has no choice but to turn to its fat reserve for energy when you do the cardio.

[Likesspace]

Well from what I've seen over past experience is that weights are great if you are looking for major definition, yet they can do a great mental disservice if you are looking to see the scale drop. A few months ago I got majorly into weightlifting and didn't see the scale move for over a week. I finally figured out that this was because I was building more muscle than I could have imagined so I decided to go to an every other day routine. As soon as I stopped lifting every day I started seeing the 3-5 lb. loss per week that I was used to and I have to say that this made me very happy. It really comes down to what you are looking for. If you are like me and HAVE to see that scale move then lift lightly and not more than 3 times a week. If you are looking to lose fat but gain muscle (at the expense of the scale numbers making a move in the "right" direction) then by all means concentrate on the weights and make the cardio secondary. As for now I am focusing more on cardio and less on weights. I am mainly focusing on hams, biceps, triceps, pectorals and shoulders. I figure that once I hit my goal weight then I will start doing a more total body workout without consideration to my scale weight. It's basically a mental game. If you can handle the game then fine. If you're like me though......make that scale move and then later worry about the "look".

[aldini10]

I am an advocate of both but not during the same workout.
I lift weights either twice a week (during marathon training mode) or 3 times a week (non-training). I follow the BFL weight lifting method. However my only "cardio" on these days is stretching and a 5 minute walk on the treadmill.
My cardio workouts are either 5 days a week marathon mode or 4 days a week non-marathon mode.
I never mix the two on the same day.

[fitmaam]

After years of being a Firm fan (since 1986) and doing traditional style weight training and all kinds of cardio, I have just discovered the Slow Burn/Power of 10. I'm into my 3rd week and I am hooked. I workout 2 days a week and workouts are usually 40 minutes each. I hope with more practice I will be able to reduce my time. I'm still in the learning curve. This method is so intense I feel like I workout 6 days a week. I just love it and thank God 48 Hours did that piece on it or I would never have known. Ironically, the same thing happened to me with the low-carb diet 5 years ago. Saw a piece about it on 48 hours, tried it and have been hooked ever since.

[Prana]

I always do weights before cardio simply because weights will deplete gylcogen stores in the liver (stored energy) and therefore allow optimal fat burning during the cardio session :yay:

I thought everyone knew that??

[Alopex]

My weight sessions tend to take an hour each, and I do hour-long cardio 4 days a week (1/2 hour on 2 other days), so I never combine them. I keep my cardio in the morning and my weights at night. Otherwise, cortisol would just be undoing my work.

If I had to do both together, weights first is definitely the way I'd go, because muscle mass is more important to me in the long run.

[Frederick]

I always do weights before cardio simply because weights will deplete gylcogen stores in the liver (stored energy) and therefore allow optimal fat burning during the cardio session :yay:

I thought everyone knew that??

LOL...you would think, non?

Seriously, everyone probably was privy to that very logical notion except for me, who had to actually read this board before realizing that.

Before this, I had always ran before weights; but now, I have it vice versa.

[Faith]

From what i understand u dont start burning until ur 20 minutes into ur cardio activity. So basically u need 20 minutes to warm up ur body. What i do is I do the weights first and the cardio so that im burning every minute im doing the cardio. I've seen better/faster results this way.

[Alopex]

That's true, Faith, unless your body is already burning fat for fuel on a regular basis, as happens with LC diets. We don't have to wait those 20 minutes like high-carbers do because we're ALWAYS burning fat. :)

But definitely putting weights before cardio will give you a more effective strength workout and I find that cardio afterwards (a few minutes, anyway) helps to keep muscle soreness at bay.

[Dee30]

Couldnt vote but I do cardio before and after I do weights

[DianaO]

I do cardio then weights

[Cajunman]

to me ... cardio is fun ... that's where I burn calories .. but where I shape my body is lifting weights ... I do that first ....It's the intensity of weight training that will make the most difference in your muscles .... cardo ... I do every day aslo ... but because it take pleasure from that .. do it last

[Byrdie]

i, myself have just starting working out about 2 weeks ago. I walk very fast on the threadmill for 2 miles 1st. then do 3-4 reps of light weight lifting. I have gotten a little discouraged because I weighed today and had gained 2 pounds...I am eating what I am suppose to. could the working out make ya gain weight??? freaks me out!!! Byrdie

[watcher16]

ALL Bodybuilders do their cardio after the weights.

A lot do it on another day. To much cardio seems to hinder the growth of muscle, so they do about 20 min. max

[watcher16]

Hey guy's: lifting to often is BAD. Light weights have no use at all.

[fridayeyes]

Correction: light weights are better than no lifting at all. ;) However, if indeed they have no use at all, it is then impossible to lift too often. ;)

Hint: do not discourage those who are trying to learn lest they stop even trying.

[watcher16]

Correction: light weights are better than no lifting at all. ;) However, if indeed they have no use at all, it is then impossible to lift too often. ;)

Hint: do not discourage those who are trying to learn lest they stop even trying.
Hello fridayeyes,

You are right I should be some more gentle, I would only like to stimulatie the low carb cracks to get some more to the point on the issue of muscle-growth

[Kestrel]

Watcher: why is lifting often bad? Seems the success of many eastern european lifters would dispute that point. And lifting lighter weights is not necessarily bad when done in the context of recuperation or injury treatment.

Perhaps many on this forum are looking for results based on goals other than "bodybuilding" in nature, which means often other means to an end.

[fridayeyes]

Heavy lifting needs at least a day in between muscle groups for proper recovery, sometimes more. This is why body builders tend to rotate their workouts, Upper body one day, lower another, etc. Light weights are much less demanding on the body, and so can be done more often. I think that Watcher is primarily thinking of strength training and body building. While I tend that way myself, it isn't what most people on the General exercise forum are into.

Unfortunately, our society also gives women a lot of misconceptions about exercise. (Like "Women shouldn't lift because they will get big, also implying that 'big' is unfeminine and undesireable, etc.)

I believe that any exercise is better than none. If people choose not to lift, that's really up to them. As for me, HIIT cardio and lift big. :)

Cheers,

Friday

[watcher16]

Watcher: why is lifting often bad? Seems the success of many eastern european lifters would dispute that point. And lifting lighter weights is not necessarily bad when done in the context of recuperation or injury treatment.

Perhaps many on this forum are looking for results based on goals other than "bodybuilding" in nature, which means often other means to an end.
You are right about recuperation and injury treatment, allthoug I personally would also there use heavy weights. Heavy is relative. I someone can only move once his finger for 1 cm you have a starting point. Next time 2 reps! Later 2 cm!

You have to carefully go up to the point where ´heavy´ starts for the person in question. No gym or therapeut I know of is doing this like I just mentioned. I do this with my mother who has a bad shoulder. I seems to work.

Lifting often in general is 'bad' if your target is musclegrowth. If you want to be able to lift something 100 times it is ok, but why would one want to?

Lifting often has no use for burning fat as far as I know.

[watcher16]

Good post Friday :thup: ,

What is your HIIT routine? I am not sure about the 2nd I in HIIT, maybe it could be useful for myself?

[LisaS]

HIIT is high intensity interval training - an energy systems training protocol not a resistance training protocol

if you do a google search on HIIT you will find many variations
[1 min sprint, 30 sec rest] * some number of intervals
[400m sprint, equal rest] * some number of intervals
[800m sprint, 1 min rest] * some number of intervals
[20 sec sprint, 10 sec rest] * 8 intervals ("tabata")
etc.

[fridayeyes]

Yup, intervals. My bike has an interval setting, so I just do that. An 8 minute cycle has three spikes and one 'hill', but in essence, it's spring, jog, sprint, jog, etc, for periods of 1-2 minutes each. The highs are supposed to be all out, maximum effort.

Cheers,

Friday

[Cajunman]

From all I've read, if you are into body shaping / building .. do the weights first. You need focus and intensity to gain. And as a plus, I've read that cardio after, low intensity on the same muscles you worked, is a plus afterwards as it stimulates healing. Use cardo after weight for body sculpting. And well, for other sports .. I CAN see how cardio may come first.

[Kaillean]

I think you really have to examine your goals and your current fitness level when assessing whether to do cardio or weights or both.

I agree weight training is useful and important, and I agree most women don't get big.

However, the fact is, most of us do experience a stall on the scale when we start lifting. And depending where you are mentally and physically on your journey - that can be depressing and make it seem as if LC isn't working or whatever.

To be frank, at 215 lbs, all I was interested in was getting some weight off. I needed to see the scale move to stay motivated. Once I started losing weight, my interest in exercising just naturally increased.

I started with walking, then some easy day hikes, etc. When I hit the gym for weights, the scale stopped. I got demotivated. This may be a faulty attitude, but it's reality for many.

So I went back to mainly cardio. More pounds come off. Soon I realize I will NEED to do weights to have the body I want and ensure I don't lose any more lean muscle mass.

Now I do weights, and also look for ways to blend cardio/resistance training, such as through biking.

My point is that it seemed to be a natural progression. Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to discourage anyone who is already active or motivated to be so.

But if you are, or were, really overweight and a couch potato to boot, don't feel like you have to be superman. If doing weights and cardio is uninteresting or too hard for you - then don't do it.

Just try to keep progressing all the time - even if you have to start at square one, keep your eye on square two.

There is no finish line with exercise. WE will all have to keep up with it forever and keep upping the intensity/changing things up to get results/maintain.

So there's time. Do the best you can, try to challenge yourself, and keep yourself interested.

Most importantly, try to find something you enjoy. Otherwise it will be too hard to be consistent.

Like eating, there is no one plan for everyone. Listen to your body, and do what's best for YOU.

[featherz]

I break mine up. I do a 30-40 minute session of (depending on the day): Cardio/HIIT/Power walking in the morning and a 30-40 min session of Weight Training/Pilates/Other (also dep on day) in the evening. I do the Pilates/Other on HIIT days, and the weight training in the evening of the Cardio or Power walking days. Some of this is based on my work schedule, but I alternate Weight days and HIIT no matter what.

So far so good! :)

[AJ_0001]

I was doing BFL so HIIT one day, weight training the next day back and forth 6 days a week for 12 weeks. I just finished my first challenge and have started a new program of warming up with weights (first set a little light, next 2 sets heavy) 4 times per week - Monday chest and biceps, Tuesday back and triceps, Wednesday 45 minute bike "random" at a level 8, Thursday legs, Friday shoulders and abs, Saturday 45 minute treadmill HIIT. On weight days I follow up the weight training, which takes about 1/2 hour, with 25 minutes HIIT on the elliptical - start at level 6 for 1 minute, then level 7, level 8, level 9, level 10, then back to level 7 but reverse direction on the treadmill, level 8 next minute, level 9, level 10, level 11 - switch direction again and go back to level 8, then 9 then 10 then 11 then 12, then switch and go to level 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 - this takes 20 minutes and is a really great workout - follow up with 5 minute cooldown - burns about 370-400 calories according to the equipment - I'll let you know if it help speed up the fat loss. This program feels really good so far - I plan on keeping this up for about 6 weeks, then maybe going back to another BFL challenge.

[imagoddess]

I personally do not feel that there is one ABSOLUTELY correct answer to this question. Instead, I believe the correct answer is dependent on one's personal fitness and diet goals. Let me tell you why...

For twenty years, I have studied and implemented a vast variety of fitness strategies. During these years my fitness goals have varied and have included using fitness training for 1) Weight Loss, 2) Body Sculpting, 3) Body Building, 4) Conditioning (I used to be a professional dancer) and 5) Overall Health. I have attained excellent results using widely different methods. However, I have learned that certain methods are not as effective for certain goals. Now, naturally, when one engages in cardio and weight training with diligence weight and inches WILL be lost and muscles WILL be defined, but I have learned that there are ways to tweak the quickness of results depending on one's ultimate goals. So here are some things that I have learned to be true throughout the years:

1. IF YOUR GOAL IS TO USE CARDIO TO SPEED UP WEIGHT LOSS:

Then the best time to perform cardio is when your glycogen stores are empty, which is:
A. The first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, doing an am workout on an empty stomach will allow you to burn fat at a rate 300% higher than any other method;
B. At a time of day, after you have not eaten for 2- 3 hours at which you will be burning fat at a rate 150% higher than usual;
C. AFTER weight training, because weight training depletes glycogen stores faster and more efficiently than cardio does, therefore if you lift weights and then peform cardio, your body will burn fat and only fat;

2. IF YOUR GOAL IS TO USE WEIGHT TRAINING TO SPEED UP WEIGHT LOSS:

Then the best method is,
A. To lift extremely light weights and do high reps, such as 3 sets of 15 reps. This form of weight training, is usually found in health club classes called Sculpt and Tone or on various home videos. Using this method, you actually will not be sculpting or building muscle, because in order to sculpt muscle you need to lift heavy weights. In this method all you are really doing is burning calories and releasing minimum amounts of testerone. The reason they call it toning, is because you are buring so many calories that the fat around your arms disappear, and you look firmer.

B. If you have more than 15 pounds to lose, do not weight train until you are down to the last 15 pounds, because you will gain weight (muscle weighs more), which will psychologically horrify you, but also your body will demand more calories, and weight training requires that you eat more carbs, because this is essential to muscle recovery and joint health. If you lift weights on the induction phase of Atkins, you risk overtraining and your muscles will actually atrophy;

This is the principle that makes programs like Curves work, because although you may be lifting resistance machines, you are really only doing cardio.

3. WEIGHT TRAINING IN GENERAL

A. Weight training sessions should be no more that 60 minutes, in ONE SESSION, because after 60 minutes the levels of testerone and growth hormones, begin to drop and you will gain you will waste your time;

B. Weight training must be progressive and varied, after several weeks of one training program, your body stops changing; so you must change your program, switch days, switch exercises, tweak resting periods, perform super sets, and compound sets.

Those are the fundamental truths I have learned about cardio and weight lifting.

I have also learned that there are no hard rules about doing cardio and weight training on different days, you can do both on one day, as long as you follow the principles I listed for optimal results. The only rule written in stone is that you should have one full day of rest a week. To me, it is really a matter of how busy and flexible your schedule is and how much stamina you have.

Again, this is based on my personal experience and research over 20 years, it is not meant to be recommended as the only or best way for the members of this forum. (So, please remember that if anyone feels like starting a war with me on here, this is my first post and people seem open minded, but I am on other forums, where people take everything personally!)

[legwarmers]

what a fantastic post! and welcome!!!

i really have to disagree with the lifting part... training heavy isn't going to make anyone bulky. i don't see the point of lifting if it's not going to be working the fast twitch fibers.

[Kaillean]

Super post. I agree with many of your thoughts.

I don't think weight lifting bulks up women in the sense of adding a lot more muscle. Most women have to work very hard to add muscle.

I think the concern for many quite overweight people is that even strengthening what you've got without adding a lot of lean mass CAN make you look bulkier because you're pushing out and displacing fat. That can be distressing to someone who is focused on getting smaller.

In the long run, it all works out, of course. I think if you are 140 or 150 lbs or less this is not as noticeable. But when someone is 200 lbs it can be very noticeable.

k.

[imagoddess]

Yes, I agree with you about lifting and bulkiness! Many women fear lifting weights, because they think it will bulk them up! This is a myth, because women do not posess the testorene to build bulky muscles.

But, let me clarify my point. There is a difference between toning and body sculpting.

Toning, which allows you to look lean and cut, is primarily a function of diet, and lean body mass, which can be achieved via expended far more calories than your body burns. The point in toning, is not to "develop" the muscle, so much as it is to remove the fat that surronds the muscle, so that the muscle is all that you see. For example, many women have fat on their upper arms that hides their triceps muscles. If you burn enough calories through light weight training and cardio, the fat will disappear, and your arms will look thin. But, if you want to have arms with that show a super developed tricep muscle, than you must body sculpt.

Body sculpting is the process where you lift weights to change the proportion and shape of your muscles, ie, give yourself broader shoulders, to minimize a thick waist, build calve muscles to balance the proportion of one's legs, so that one's thighs look less big in comparison. If that is your goal, then heavier weights must be used. My definition of heavier weights, is a weight heavy enough that causes muscle failure by the 8th or 12th rep. Because muscles can only be developed when you reach a point of muscle failure, because the muscle grows stronger by having to repair itself.

My point in making this distinction is, that I know many women who think that toning and body sculpting are the same thing and they are not. For example, a month ago, a significantly overweight woman at my gym was using a calve press machine and she asked me if it would make her legs thinner. The answer was yes and no, it will make her calves larger, by making the muscle more developed, but she will not see those results until she does the dieting and cardio necessary to remove the fat that surronds the muscle. And in the meantime if she continued to lift weights, her weight might actually, because although she is replacing the fat with muscle, muscle weighs more. This is a sad situation for some people because they get on a scale and their weight hasn't changed with definately effects their confidence in there programs, and confidence in one's program and seeing psotive results even if they are small, is what makes or breaks one's ultimate success. Which is why, I mentioned that for people in this situation, which I assume describes a few people on here, it is better psychologically to put off body sculpting until they are closer to their ideal weight.

[legwarmers]

with high reps and low weights you are basically not targeting the fast twitch muscles anymore though.

[imagoddess]

That is my point exactly! All you are doing is burning calories with high reps/low weights! If your goal is to get thin, that will burn the fat. If your goal is to look sculpted and athletic, than heaver weights are the key!

[fridayeyes]

Hmm, I also disagree with being better off leaving 'sculpting' until you are already close to goal. Do you mean this to imply that one should not purposefully add mass until then? Adding muscle raises metabolism and reduces BF% faster than cutting alone, and allows one to see the results faster in terms of clothes and mirror.

Fine tuning, of course, does require that you be able to clearly see what needs adjustment. If you can't see the tris thru the fat, it's hard to know whether or not they need 'sculpting'.

Cheers,

Friday

[Kaillean]

I agree with you, Goddess. I, too, think the psychological effects must be weighed, too. If you think there is a chance you will get too discouraged seeing yourself seem to get bigger and your weight go up, then wait until you're further along in your weight loss journey.

There are many ways to promote fitness and to get into the exercise game.

And the rules of that game can be very different for each person, depending on things such as your age, your current weight, your goals and current fitness level.

[legwarmers]

That is my point exactly! All you are doing is burning calories with high reps/low weights! If your goal is to get thin, that will burn the fat. If your goal is to look sculpted and athletic, than heaver weights are the key!

oh.

well you are talking about building up certain parts of the body to de-emphasise others. to do that you need to do heavier weights... and subsequently LBM will burn fat more efficiently also.

also, it's predominantly a high caloric/protein intake that will help a person continue to build muscle. there is no reason to lay off the weight imo.

[Kaillean]

Hmm, I also disagree with being better off leaving 'sculpting' until you are already close to goal. Do you mean this to imply that one should not purposefully add mass until then? Adding muscle raises metabolism and reduces BF% faster than cutting alone, and allows one to see the results faster in terms of clothes and mirror.
I don't think Goddess said it was BETTER for everyone to take this approach. Just that for someone who may not be mentally prepared to handle the effects of weight training on the scale or in the mirror in the short term it might be better to wait.

To be honest, this describes me perfectly. I totally understand the benefits of weight training and am now incorporating into my routine. But I just couldn't deal with the temporary scale gain when I was really focused on losing the pounds.

I know other people on the board who have taken the same approach. Other people such as yourself train the whole way and it works for you.

I would have to agree that IDEALLY you're probably right, but in reality that approach doesn't work for everyone.

You always have great training advice, BTW. I have enjoyed your posts!

[Kaillean]

oh.

also, it's predominantly a high caloric/protein intake that will help a person continue to build muscle. there is no reason to lay off the weight imo.
But this is a problem for some of us. When I was 215 or even 180 lbs, I was interested in learning how to reduce my calories and carbs, and eat a new way. That was enough of a struggle without having to consider optimal nutritional needs for building muscle.

Even many fitness professionals say lose the pounds first and then start lifting. It takes a very long time to build enough muscle to help you burn calories in any substantial way. For some, it's not the fastest way to get the fat off. Maybe your goal isn't super fast loss - that's fine too. To each his own.

It also depends on your lean mass. If your eating or exercise habits are causing more than expected loss of lean mass, that's another consideration that may mean lifting from the get go is more important.

Now that I'm 5 lbs away from goal, my perspective has totally changed. Now I'm more interested in weights, and less concerned about short term impacts on the scale, etc. It's a natural progression for many.

I'd be interested to know as well, how many of you gung ho lifters were couch potatoes before. Or were you active in high school, college, etc. I think that makes a difference, too.

Enthusiasm for fitness is a wonderful thing, and I'm so glad I finally found some. :D But when I had my ass on the couch and I was 60 lbs overweight and hadn't done much of anything since grade school, listening to pals outline my ideal lifting program and cardio routine used to depress the hell out of me. I felt like I was so far behind them I would never catch up.

I decided just to start doing what I enjoyed - just to get moving - without worrying about the length of my muscle fibers and what was happening to them. (All in good fun, legwarmers!). I got my bike out and started toodling around the neighborhood. It felt more like fun than exercise, and was just what I needed to get me going.

Now I do more. But a year ago, if you told me I should ride my bike 20+km 3 or 4 times a week and do weights 2x per week, I would have just laid back on the couch and reached for my Cheetos. ;)

[fridayeyes]

I empathize with frustration at the scale moving slowly, but for me it was excellent de-sensitization therapy. It almost became a game. How low can I push my bf% and still be at X weight?

My goal weight is now 170 at 17% bf. The scale number is HUGE, but I've so convinced myself that the mass is beneficial for me that I no longer care. :)

That being said, much of this battle is indeed in the mind, and I have no gripe with someone who needs to see the scale move for psychological reasons. Been there, done that, paid the shrink bill, LOL.

Thanks for the compliment on my posts. I have learned so much here, it's really amazing. When I get to goal, I'm going to be like one of the stars on Oscar night.

"I'd like to thank the Academy.... and 1500 of my closest supporters, in alpha order..."

Cheers,

Friday

[fridayeyes]

*raises hand* Couch potato *blush*

I did track in jr hi, but was much more a drama/library geek.

Cheers,

Friday

[Kaillean]

Your stats are truly impressive, Friday. My BF is somewhere around 28 or 29%. (I think - havent' been tested for a while). I am aiming for 22% and then we'll see what's what.

I truly admire you. I do wish I was better able to ignore the scale in my main losing phase, but I'd been fat so long and I was so thrilled to see something working finally, that I just wanted to keep going before it stopped working.

It is all in our heads. Obviously yours is screwed on a little more firmly than mine. ;)

[fridayeyes]

ROFL! Well.... I hit 199 two years ago doing CKD... was in about the same place I am right now. Due to a backlog of 'issues', I freaked out, got terrified, got wiped out by SAD and a few life things and let it all go you-know-where.

The good part is, it made me face a few things that needed facing anyway, but especially if I was going to be successful with reshaping my body. Once I got back on the ol' pony, I had all of my learning/research from the first time, plus the new mindset. This time, the biggest success for me was knowing in advance that I could build mass while on a cutting diet - and knowing that it would be very temporary. I've been working it shamelessly!

Sometimes I feel like a doofus, still kicking around here more than 2 years after I started, and still weighing *coff* 200 lbs. Ok, 199. ;) But all in all, I think I value the extra learning more than I would have if I'd had an easy path.

Cheers,

Friday

[Kaillean]

I will be here just as long, Friday. I'm just doing things in a different order. I may have gotten the weight off a bit quicker, but I'm sure it's going to take many months of hard work to get my BF where yours is.

That's really my point. It's a different journey for all of us. I find mindset is the biggest factor, and that changes all the time. My commitment really wavered in the fall, and I lost some ground there. But you're right - the hard lessons help the most in the long run!

[legwarmers]

Even many fitness professionals say lose the pounds first and then start lifting. It takes a very long time to build enough muscle to help you burn calories in any substantial way. For some, it's not the fastest way to get the fat off. Maybe your goal isn't super fast loss - that's fine too. To each his own.

I'd be interested to know as well, how many of you gung ho lifters were couch potatoes before. Or were you active in high school, college, etc. I think that makes a difference, too.



ooh boy need to clarify! i said continue to gain because when someone has been lifting for a while (let's assume they don't need to drop fat) they need to eat more in order to continue gaining... unlike the honeymoon phase when we all start lifting where we can build AND lose. i wasn't suggesting anyone do that unless they were at their goal leanness. :) it was in reference to the bulky issue.

in my own case i'm not trying to lose... i'm actually trying to gain at the moment.

i think lifting while losing will help firm up and even build a bit upon the body... and when the fat goes the body underneath will be tight. the extra muscle will help drop the fat off too.

i was an athlete before... but i was a skinny ass couch potato for about 5 years in between then and now... and i'm an ecto/meso. i used to be icky thin - i came from the other direction... and i'm certainly not trying to suggest i know what it's like to be overweight, but i do know what a change muscle on the body can make.

[Jopalis]

I thought for sure you would reply to this. Hmm? Changed avatar to my daughter and I. Later...Jo

[fridayeyes]

I think she's off lifting.... :)

[imagoddess]

I don't think Goddess said it was BETTER for everyone to take this approach. Just that for someone who may not be mentally prepared to handle the effects of weight training on the scale or in the mirror in the short term it might be better to wait.

Yes, that was all that I was saying! :D

[Built]

I thought for sure you would reply to this. Hmm? Changed avatar to my daughter and I. Later...Jo

Okay, I'm here. ;)

I don't honestly know HOW I could have dropped the weight I did without lifting. I started after about a month on Atkins - NOT because I wanted to "lose the fat first", but because it was almost 3 years ago and with NO information, I didn't know how my body would respond to activity without carbs.

I have had several overweight friends start lifting, and they all said the same thing: "I can't believe how FAST you see results when you do this".

Nothing produces fast changes in the shape and composition of the body like lifting. Even something as simple as switching the order to make sure the lifting comes BEFORE the cardio can produce remarkably fast changes in the results the body will enjoy.

If I had it to do over again, I'd have started lifting sooner, and focussed more on it than on the cardio I was doing. It was easier, and it worked SO FAST!

[LKPNYC]

I just bought the firm tapes.. .very excited to see how they work... I usually get NO results unless I do weights, too.

[featherz]

I didn't really get many results at all until I started lifting weights and doing interval training- my diet wasn't TOO horrible, and I powerwalked an hour each day before work for YEARS. Sometimes twice a day! :) I guess I would have been huge without it, but...

I still gained weight -- very slowly, but it came just the same! I decreased portion sizes, started using fitday, started doing HIIT, more intense step training, and weight work (first with light dumbells, now barbell work) and the weight just fell off. So I think the weights helped a LOT.

[diemde]

I wish I had known the benefits of lifting when I first start the lc WOL. I am positive that I lost a lot of muscle by not doing anything other than cardio. At my original weight, my legs and arms had to have been pretty strong. When you are really heavy, as I was (ooh, that "was" feels good to say), even doing cardio offers some resistance training, but probably not enough. Moving around that much body weight requires strong muscles. And pushing myself off the couch probably made my arms pretty strong too. :lol: I was a couch potato through and through, and have never been athletic.

Now that I am lifting, it is sometimes discouraging to not be losing the weight as fast. Would I have been discouraged back then so much that I'd have quit? Dunno, but I sure wish I had tried to at least maintain those muscles! My lean mass was probably up around 150 (guessing here). Now it's such hard work to even maintain, let alone build muscles!

I think the best method for those who have a lot of weight to lose (>100 lbs) is a combination routine. To do enough lifting to be able to maintain (or come close to maintaining) muscles, but not worry about building new muscles.

I think it's also important to understand your %BF target and how much muscle you need to hit that. I need every bit of the 132 lean mass I'm at now to hit my current goal BF at 172 lbs of body weight. If I let the lean mass continue to drop, then my goal will be even further away, and I'll have to try even harder to add muscles.

[J.K.]

Cardio after weights with the cardio including sprints and working recoveries..

I started out my program doing the cardio first. However, after making the change to cardio after weights - IMHO - I've had much better results. I also like knowing that when I'm on the weights (having not already done cardio) that I'm fresh as I consider weights the backbone of my program.

Cheers! http://azedia.com/emoticons/cap2.gif

[IdahoSpud]

Ditto everything JK said!

[imagoddess]

OK - I brought up some of these issues many pages back, and was shunned.

Here is what I have learned, and I just became a certified Personal Trainer.

If you want to lift and lose fat, and low carb, than you need to embrace a cyclic ketogenic diet. That is several days, low/no carbs with cardio, with two days carb loading and weight training, for several days.

Bodybuilders have been doing this for years. Go to Amazon and look for books by Lyle McDonald and you will get a great low carb diet with body building aspects.

[Built]

OK - I brought up some of these issues many pages back, and was shunned.

Here is what I have learned, and I just became a certified Personal Trainer.

If you want to lift and lose fat, and low carb, than you need to embrace a cyclic ketogenic diet. That is several days, low/no carbs with cardio, with two days carb loading and weight training, for several days.

Bodybuilders have been doing this for years. Go to Amazon and look for books by Lyle McDonald and you will get a great low carb diet with body building aspects.

Yeppers, CKD, with it's LOOOOONG carbup, works like a hot damn for a lot of ... MEN.

Women, on the other hand, well, for some it works, for some it doesn't. Unfortunately for us females, almost ALL such research is done on male athletes. Almost NONE of it is done on women, and for good reason: our hormonal cycles screw up the results... :rolleyes:

Body Opus was written by a man, for male bodybuilders, based on research performed on men. It's a GREAT method. But it often fails for women. I do NOT know why, but I have long suspected it has to to with our lower testosterone level, and smaller muscle mass and liver.

I do agree with you though - occasional carbups are absolutely necessary. TKD/NHE style carbups may be more effective for women, but some variant on the carb-cycling theme is definitely necessary for continuing success.

[imagoddess]

I didn't mention David Duchane, I mentioned Lyle McDonald, whose book the Ketogenic diet is chock full of scientific explainations on what happens to the body during dieting and exercise, in particular ketogenic diets.

Body Opus has nothing to do with what I am basically talking about, and here is why I didn't mentioned David Duchane:

In Body Opus the low carb diet is NOT the only diet he espouses, he actually rotates several kinds of diets and a big part of Body Opus is adding on supplements to the diet. David Duchane believed strongly in using supplements, such as Human Growth Hormone and ephredra to lose body fat. David Duchane's book was geared towards people who aren't fat to begin with, but are people who want to be perfect, essentially the professional or amateur body builder. Finally, David Duchane's workout's are not well thought out. If I had to endorse an author's weight training plan, I would either endorse Mike Metzer, "High Intensity Training".

So I didn't mention Body Opus, because it has no place in what I am talking about. This is what I am talking about:

NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GENDER IS - IF YOU WANT TO BUILD MUSCLE YOU MUST FEED IT GLUCOSE. Both men's and women's bodies need the same three macronutrients to maintain itself, it is not gender specific. If you lift weights, and maintain a low carb diet you are defeating the purpose.

So, I will repeat what I said again, because it didn't get heard the first time. If any one here really wants to learn scientifically what happens to the body during diets, especially ketogenic diets, than read LYLE MCDONALD'S, THE KETOGENIC DIET. Lyle McDonald is pro-low carbing and really knows his stuff.

[Frederick]

So, I will repeat what I said again, because it didn't get heard the first time. If any one here really wants to learn scientifically what happens to the body during diets, especially ketogenic diets, than read LYLE MCDONALD'S, THE KETOGENIC DIET. Lyle McDonald is pro-low carbing and really knows his stuff.

I've been debating on whether or not to try the altering carb consumption to coincide with my weight training days. Your post bears so much confidence and conviction, that I've decided to try it and see how it works out.

I'll take your word for it rather than reading the books you've listed. I sort of eschew reading whenever I can.

[Built]

NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GENDER IS - IF YOU WANT TO BUILD MUSCLE YOU MUST FEED IT GLUCOSE. Both men's and women's bodies need the same three macronutrients to maintain itself, it is not gender specific. If you lift weights, and maintain a low carb diet you are defeating the purpose.

So, I will repeat what I said again, because it didn't get heard the first time. If any one here really wants to learn scientifically what happens to the body during diets, especially ketogenic diets, than read LYLE MCDONALD'S, THE KETOGENIC DIET. Lyle McDonald is pro-low carbing and really knows his stuff.

Lyle does indeed know his stuff.

All of his research is based on men, too.

And although men and women need the same macro (and micro) nutrients to maintain and grow, the relative proportions of those macronutrients often vary according to relative muscle mass, even amongst men. Sadly, is not a given that a scaled-down version of the same programme that works for a man will work for a woman, and this difference is largely ignored by almost all scientific research covered in even the most prestigious scientific journals. I am a statistician by education. I am trained to pick apart flaws in published research.

There has actually been the suggestion that for women, gearing training and diet to coincide with our cycle may be reasonable: testosterone peaks in a woman's body at ovulation. I intend to do some experimenting with this notion in the near future, eating more carbs around ovulation and lifting in heavier, shorter sets during this time, more compound movements, more excentric movements (all of which stimulate testosterone in male lifters) and fewer carbs with somewhat longer sets and supersets during the rest of the month. Kind of like a bulking and cutting cycle in every month. Since I enjoy bulking so much, I'm thinking this might very well give me one more thing to look forward to with ovulation... ;)

Oh, and imagoddess, there is another book you may find very interesting that discusses in great detail the endocrine relationships between feeding, training, and the body's response: Natural Hormonal Enhancement, by Rob Faigin. I am STILL chewing through the details of Rob's book, and I'm finding endocrinology more and more fascinating all the time.

[imagoddess]

Built: Let me first say that I respect your training in statistics. Also this is off the topic, one of my major "beefs" with this world is the misuse of quoting statistics to support an argument, and it something I always question when I see a statistic used. IMO statistics are only meaningful when you understand how they were derived, and quite often after statistics are published many people, especially diet, fitness books and politicians, gloss over that fact, they this the published number is enough.

ANYWAY...

I agree with you about the gender differences. It is just that I was arguing a basic point about carbs and weight training.

Personally, I have always dieted and worked out based upon my monthly cycle. I have found where I am in my cycle has an important effect on what I can accomplish and how I feel in terms of diet and exercise. I too have done my "bulking up" that one week before my period, because my appetite is so huge, I can eat enough to lift hard. Once my period begins, I make adjustments to my diet, because it is then that I am better at losing body fat.

And this can be annoying, because energy flucutations are such a pain for meneustrating women, but it is also effective, because the body can quickly reach plateaus, and so changing diet and exercise regimens every two weeks, it very effective.

It would be wonderful if research was done in this area. Unfortunately, when it comes to weight training specifically, it remains an area off limits to women. Women are told to lift light weights, take aerobic classes, in fact some people will tell women only to use nautilus machines or to only use neoprene weights. It is ridicolous.

And of course, there is more deviation in the female form that the male form in general. Females need more individually targeted weight training programs to achieve results, far more than men do. Some women have a propensity to build muscle well, and some don't, some women are well-proportioned, and some are bottom heavy or top heavy. So, I think it is a daunting task for anyone who would want to study diet, fitness in addition to endrocronology in terms of the female gender. To perform such a study, you would have to create so many sub-groups to truly understand the female body and its response to various diet and fitness regimens.

There probably isn't much incentitive for anyone to produce such a study. It seems that women themselves are so fearful of weight training to begin with, and fear straying from the starvation diet mode with heavy cardio mode. This is unfortunate, male body builders do know tricks that can be adapted for females.

[Built]

There probably isn't much incentitive for anyone to produce such a study. It seems that women themselves are so fearful of weight training to begin with, and fear straying from the starvation diet mode with heavy cardio mode. This is unfortunate, male body builders do know tricks that can be adapted for females.
Sadly, I believe you are correct. Women are often fearful of resistance training because of those who use AAS to become massive, and yet deny it. There seems to be a collective fear that this type of physique can happen accidentally, which of course, it cannot - those who achieve massive size have done so through a combination of good genetics, astonishing discipline and hard work on diet and training, and the best pharmaceuticals money can buy. It is the result of the deliberate pursuit of a particular aesthetic.

I still have issues with this phrase, though:
NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GENDER IS - IF YOU WANT TO BUILD MUSCLE YOU MUST FEED IT GLUCOSE.

I just don't think this is true. Over the last three years, I'm guessing I've put on about 15 pounds of muscle. I built at least a third of this on strict low-carb (while dropping at least 20 pounds of fat, over about a 6 month period), and I had no trouble at all doing so. I've learned a lot since starting Atkins three years ago, but I built mass really well on under 40g carb a day for a LOOONG time before I started fiddling with TKD and other carb-cycling rotations.

I’m the first to admit that muscle-building is a whole lot more FUN with the occasional carbup, but for me at least, these carbups were not at all necessary to build up substantial mass. I’ve built up even MORE since fiddling with different bulking carb-cycles, but enjoyed excellent progress without. While it is certainly sub-optimal to build muscle with no carbups whatsoever, it is by no means impossible. I’ve done it. I am willing to bet money this works better while you’re still fat – everything gets harder, body-composition wise, once you’re muscular and fairly lean.

[Mithridate]

Maybe it has already been said in this thread. I admit I haven't read every single reply. However, it would have been nice to have a 5th option for the poll. That option would be to rotate daily between Weights and Cardio instead of doing them the same day. That is what I do and what many trainers recommend as the best of both worlds.

[WantsMore]

I find if I do the cardio first I burn out on the weight machines in the circuit. Although we do cardio with the machines. I don't find myself lacking in the cardio after or burning out. But then again I only do about 20-30 min of cardio after the circuit because you get 30 min of cardio from the circuit, so it's around an hour together.

[nyc10034]

I like to do cardio after weights. My theory being that after weighlifting, one is tired. Therefore, you MUST exert yourself while doing cardio. Then again, my only cardio is running on the treadmill from 6.5mph to 8.4mph. By exerting yourself close to the point of puking, the body is being drained and I love that feeling because it produces results. Then again, it is my unproven theory that works for me. Keep on working...

[Groovegirl]

I split cardio in two 20 minute segments between weights. The first I do interval to max intensity (4 cycles - 5 minute cycles) and the second segment is just regular

[Anisha]

Hey,
Ideally weights first because then you burn out all your glycogen and are fully on fat burning by the time you start cardio(that being said) I find it really hard to go as hard if I do weights first because I'm tired, but if you can do it thats the way to go. The other thing that is good is intervals when you do your weights. For example, either spot jog, jumprope, jacks,etc...for 30 sec-60 sec in-between weight sets and also you can try to split your cardio, 1/2 before and 1/2 after weights. That seems to work. Good luck!!!

[pammiejoe6]

If you do your cardio first, you can use up your available muscle glycogen, and your weight lifting will suffer.
this is my thinking....i usually do my lifting on a seperate day than my cardio...but if im pushing it the weights are FIRST and then the cardio....


xoxoxo

[Janette360]

what works best for me to lose fat and lean up is cardio first then weights. I've tried doing it both ways and this way works better for me. For some reason I gain muscle very fast and can become too muscular if I focus on more weights. I do and hour of cardio and about a half hour to a hour of weights. I want the energy for my cardio and what I have left I use for weight training. I need to burn the calories and if I do weights first my energy level isn't there for the cardio. I also have a free day and try to stay low fat high cardio and that seems to fuel me for the next week and keeps me from cheating during the week. Every one is different and you have to see what works best for your body.

[Iluv2cook]

Built -

There has actually been the suggestion that for women, gearing training and diet to coincide with our cycle may be reasonable: testosterone peaks in a woman's body at ovulation. I intend to do some experimenting with this notion in the near future, eating more carbs around ovulation and lifting in heavier, shorter sets during this time, more compound movements, more excentric movements (all of which stimulate testosterone in male lifters) and fewer carbs with somewhat longer sets and supersets during the rest of the month. Kind of like a bulking and cutting cycle in every month. Since I enjoy bulking so much, I'm thinking this might very well give me one more thing to look forward to with ovulation...

You are a fount of information! I have been thinking the exact same thing but wasn't quite sure how to fashion the program.

Personally, I have always dieted and worked out based upon my monthly cycle. I have found where I am in my cycle has an important effect on what I can accomplish and how I feel in terms of diet and exercise. I too have done my "bulking up" that one week before my period, because my appetite is so huge, I can eat enough to lift hard. Once my period begins, I make adjustments to my diet, because it is then that I am better at losing body fat.

imagoddess - is this covered in another thread somewhere?

-Nancy

Oh! I only lift, cardio holds no interest for me since I reached my goal weight. I waited to start BFL until I reached my 'magic' number because I just knew I couldn't handle the scale moving the 'wrong' way when I was still trying to achieve my goal. But now I know a better way to lose weight than Atkins which was lifting, aerobics (never anywhere near weights) and zig-zagging my calories.

[hyPnotiK]

In my opinion, I would do a warm up, then a nice full cardio workout for close to an hour. (If I wanted to loose weight)

Else, warmup, weights, warmdown + 10-30 min intense cardio.

[Audrey2005]

Definetly before. :)

[kbfunTH]

IMO, it comes down to personal preference.

For me, when I'm training using techniques/exercises that are form and stability critical. I don't want to be somewhat tired from cardio, so in this case, cardio would come after or even on a different day. Otherwise, I throw it in whenever I feel like it. Sometimes, before, sometimes after, sometimes on a different day.

I think to put yourself in the best position for success, you do it whenever you are most likely to get it done with some consistency.

[dane]

I think to put yourself in the best position for success, you do it whenever you are most likely to get it done with some consistency.
This is key! :agree:

[sugarjunky]

Before. Gets my heartrate up so that more oxygen can reach my muscles when I am lifting and doing reps. Burns more calories that way. :)

[upback]

I've been doing cardio and just started weights and I find for me that:

Cardio before Weights

my muscles are warmed up, after weights I don't think I could do cardio :rolleyes:

[Dodger]

Ideally weights first because then you burn out all your glycogen and are fully on fat burning by the time you start cardio
The glycogen in the muscles cannot leave the muscles. If you do an upper body workout, you use the glycogen only in those muscles that were worked. Overall this is not very much (except for those particular muscles) because a weight workout is reasonably short. Cardio is usually lots of legs reps (running, cycling, etc.) and will use the glycogen in those muscles + some from the liver that replenishes the muscles.

[SenseShine]

If your goal is to improve cardiovascular fitness, then I believe cardio training should come first and then weights/resistance training second; vice-versa if your goal is to improve muscularity and strength.

[bri79]

If you are more interested in fat loss as well as tone, then you must do weights first. You really dont start burning into your fat until you are 20 minutes into your heart rate elevating. If you do your weights first (try to have little rest between sets to keep your heart rate up) you body will be all warmed up and ready to start dipping into your fat stores.

If you do cardio first...then the first 20 minutes you will be just warming up to get to the fat loss level...when the other way...you just jump on your machine and you are ready to be a fat burning machine!! Trust me!

The more muscle fibers you have, the more calories you burn through out the day...its good to lift! If you just want to lean and harden up and not get bulky at all, depending on if you tend to bulk up, do light weights, high reps, 15-20. I recomend the new NY ultimate body plan....the dvd that jsut came out for the book Is unbelievable...I highly recomend the diet and the workout....when you are ready to maintain...you switch over to "sound mind, sound body", david kirshts other book. WOW! I just started and am already seeing crazy results, and It is low impact...so its not bad on joints!

[dane]

You really dont start burning into your fat until you are 20 minutes into your heart rate elevating.............If you do cardio first...then the first 20 minutes you will be just warming up to get to the fat loss level
Hi there!
This is true for those on high carb diets.......they must first use up the available carbs in their system before switching to fat burning. The beauty of a low carb diet is, we're already there! The moment you begin exercise, you're already in "fat-burning mode".
I agree, though, that if you want to lift, then lift first......you want to lift as intensely as possible, and this will be difficult if you're already fatigued from cardio.

[BlueTrunks]

What about a little of both? I usually do 30 mins cardio, then lift, then another 30 mins of cardio. Anyone else break it up that way?

[epiphany]

I do weights before cardio... it was reccomended by my doctor.

You lose weight faster by doing it that way he says... studies show. 20 minutes of weights can get you into that fat burning mode.. then when you do your cardio it's just burning up fat.