Long distance - marathons

[kghamilton]

Hi everyone

I ran marathons in college at around 140lbs (5' 6")

through the 90s, work, family, etc I gained 75 pounds (ouch).

Last year, I managed to lose 45, with lots of running and loosely eating a Sugarbusters type of diet. I ran 3 marathons.
I have had trouble losing more weight and I know LC to be effective. Is anyone doing any serious running and following a reduced carb diet. I'd really like to see another 20 come off.
Thanks.

[MaineDaddy]

OK to call myself a runner right now is more of a mind-set that a physical state of being. I am getting myself to a point where I can start training again and become a runner again.

I have taken ten years off from my last race in college. I spent most of those years abusing my body in one way or another. Today I am 32 years old and I think I am wiser than I was in my teens and early 20's when I was last running. Even back then I was carrying a little extra weight and did'nt know why I could'nt lose it. I am almost positive I know why now though. I always gained weight in the off season and tried to lose it fast pre-season. What I would do was train extra hard with double workouts and eat low fat low cal. My body would go so far and then hold the weight. I could always drop MOST of it real quick but still carry extra weight through the season. Of course the calories I was getting came mostly from carbs.

What I am doing now is strictly following the Atkins plan and adding weight training to add to my fat burning. I am also slowly starting to run again. My start weight would have pushed it for injury so I am taking it slow. When I break 200lbs I'll start building the mileage up but not untill then. For now three miles is as far as I'll go.
This is hard to do because I would always just jump into hard training and force my body to accept it. Now though I want to get the most out of it as I can. I will make myself take the time to do it right.

SOOO... as far as the carbs go I plan on keeping them low during my weight loss. As I said I will not be doing any "long runs" so I will not need to add any for now. I do however have a plan for when the time comes. I will "carbo-load" before truly long runs and races. I will keep good notes on what I eat and when and monitor keytones after. The goal will be to fuel the running muscles for the duration of the run without having extra carbs. I am sure that this will take some time to figure out but I plan on giving myself plenty of time.

I have met another distance runner here in the forums and I suggested to him that we should stick together and compare notes as we go. He is in much better shape than I am right now, he is currently training for a marathon. Depending on where I am condition wise I have my eye on a local marathon in the fall. If things go well I'll be training for that this summer. So we would have some data to compare at that point.

What is your marathon time anyhow? I do not have one yet..but I will. My other PR's don't even seem real anymore, they may as well be someone elses from where I stand today.

Hope to hear from you again,

Shane

[kghamilton]

Your story could almost be my story, except I'm 37. I wasn't very kind to my body through the 90s.
I took 12 years off marathons, 1989-2002. I would normally run them around 142-145 pounds although I was under 140 at one point (I'm 5 foot 6). I would always gain a few pounds in the winter (running sucks in Canada in the winter). In 2000, I moved to North Carolina and topped out at 215 pounds. I was in grad school and was going to start teaching. I knew I had to get back in shape before I tried to juggle a new profession, a grad school, along with day to day family stuff. A good friend of mine challenged me to get back in shape as he was running his first marathon. I casually mentioned that I ran 5 of them a long time ago.
Because of the same weight issues as you, I took it easy at first, as it was difficult to run and my knees were sore running at such a heavy weight. A treadmill helped a lot and I used the incline to increase intensity.
I didn't change my diet however and was always hungry with the extra exercise. I was only down about 10 pounds after many months of running. I got a boost by picking up a product that had some ephedrine and appetite control. I'm not really fond of ephedrine anymore, as coming off of it is difficult.
I used it for a little over a month and switched my diet to a "Sugar Busters" type diet, which has a lot of similarities to many of the other low carb diets. I was able to get to 171 before Myrtle Beach Marathon (Feb. 9th 2002) and thenfollowed it up with Shamrock (March 15). My weight stayed between 167-171, until I had a car accident in October and couldn't run for over a month. Needless to say, between that, Thanksgiving, Xmas, New Years, I got close to 180.
I'm now back to 168 and getting ready for a marathon on March 29th. I saw an article in Runners World a few months back where a guy was using a modified Atkins, lost that extra weight and was running around 3 hours marathons. I am looking for that mystical person for advice. I don't see 140 as an option; but I know that I can get to 150 and when I do I have strategies in place to maintain it. My biggest problem in the past was making a marathon a huge event and then not having a plan in place to keep training. I know keep an eye 4-6 months down the road for possible races to run.
I would be very interested in following up with you and other runners on training and diet. RW still talks so much about low fat /high carb, I'm tired of reading it.

A marathon is possible for almost anyone, you just have to really want to do it.

As for my times, my PR is 3:15 in 1987.
LAst year I ran 4:04, 4:08 (it was 83 degrees in Virginia Beach that day) and 4:44 - Grandfather Mountain - in the mountains of NC.

Ken

[MaineDaddy]

Ken,
Nice to meet you. I know what you mean about training in th e winter, it was hard enough to do when I was in shape but now...
It has been such a rough winter here in Maine that it would be crazy to be out running all the time. I'd be happy in NC myself right now. I have friends in Ashville and spent some time there years ago.

It sure does sound like we have the same story here. Given the difference in height we probably have the same body composition. I think my all time low race weight in college was 169. That was during one of my rapid loss seasons though and I still had extra body fat. It's hard to say how far down I could get but I would'nt expect much more that that. With the added strength training I will no doubt lose more fat but I'll gain muscle as well. I will get my body fat % lower than it ever was I'm sure of that so I'll see where that gets me.

When I met and married my wife five years ago I weighed about 180. She has never seen me as a runner or under that weight. Just recently when she saw me drop 15 lbs she thought I was losing too much weight. Granted that was a fast two week loss but I wonder what she will think when I get down to a respectful race weight? Just another reason to be doing it the right way so she knows that I am eating healthy and not starving.

Again- great to meet you we'll definatly have to stay in touch.

[kghamilton]

Shane

I'll be happy to share any insights I come up with. I'm going to try to figure this out. The true irony is that through the 80s, everyone was saying to eat all these carbs. Couldn't figure out why I'd balloon when I'd cut my mileage back

I just don't think that you can eat low carb all the time and run long distance. I do believe though that you can restrict carbs during times of lower mileage and increase them for peak performances. I have generally taken in lots of carbs the day (and 2) before a long run or race. The key is to do it effectively, get some weight off and not feel like crap in the middle of a run.

I think the weight training you are doing is a great idea. I not that fond of doing weights; but do 20-30 minutes 2-3 times per week to work on upper body and abs.

[MaineDaddy]

The basic principal of what I'll be doing is LC only I'll have a higher tolerance for the carb levels. I will not be running idstance on an induction level but as mileage increases I will adjust my levels for OWL. As long as I am slowly droping the weight AND increasing the miles I will increase the carb counts. Then when I reach a desirable race weight I will find a maintance level of carbs for average workouts and load for the long runs and races.

"I just don't think that you can eat low carb all the time and run long distance. I do believe though that you can restrict carbs during times of lower mileage and increase them for peak performances."

I agree with what you have said here. The fundamental change for me will be to never get back to being a reckless Junkie. I will fuel my muscles as much as is needed but I will watch closly to make sure I am not over fueling them.

[kghamilton]

That makes a lot of sense.
I am not really doing induction. I actually ate an Atkins bar yesterday, not even knowing it has 25g. I don't usually eat them; but I thought it was one of those super low ones.I have restricted carbs; but not to the point where I am eating virtually none everyday. I'm sure I'm going over the 20 anyway. for me that's far too low, I think. I also will work on the weight loss and slowly add carbs, as long as I continue to work toward my goals.

One other thing I'm finally doing is ditching aspartame. I went off aspartame last year for a few months and I felt great. It coincided with the big weight loss. However, I am a Diet Pepsi junkie and it has been tough, especially with the cases of it sitting in the kitchen. Anyway I've read enough bad things about aspartama that I've been back off again this week, finally.


One of the better products I've found is Ak-Mak crackers. They are great with bean dip, peanut butter, humus, etc. and aren't super high carb like some crackers. However they aren't super low either.
The thing I need to figure out Shane is when is the best time to start adding carbs. I remember Jeff Galloway's book(I think it was Jeff) said the big pasta carboload the night before a marathon was a waste of time as your body doesn't have time to digest.
For my 15 miles Sunday morning, I think I will see what happens by starting saturday morning with shredded wheat and juice and see how I run Sunday. Since it isn't my long run, I pick up the pace for about 10-12 miles. I'll be interested to see whether I maintian it. I'll also eat a Power Bar and a gel or 2 during the run.
I also won't run saturday, so if I feel lousy, I'll know its not from a previous training run. As for the marathon in march, I'm going to concern myself more with doing well, then LC, so I will probably start at least 2 days ahead.

[MaineDaddy]

You make a great point about when to load the carbs. I really don't know but it makes me wonder. I know that the custom is to have a big race sponsered feed the night before...but is that just a convenint time for them? Also would it be pointless to consume carbs during a race or long run? More questions. I know that it will take some time and personal trial and error to figure some of these things out.

Good news here. I weighed myself today and I am down four more pounds. 215 now and I plan on upping the mileage once I break 200. This loss has broken a stall and I am sure I have the weight training to thank. So more lifting than cardio for now although I will still do some short runs, keeping it to three miles max. Then when I break the 200 mark I'll up the mileage and start adding some carbs. That is when I'll be keeping some good stats and following my ketosis closely. If I go into a stall at 199 while I am getting in some miles and some data that will be fine with me.

Off the subject. You had said that you had a family and you are a teacher. You are probably having a great time proofing all my mistakes in here...no spell check. Sorry.
What do you teach?
I have two daughters, Anna 4, and Allyson 2. They both have birthdays coming up but I will not rush their ages!!

Keep in touch,
Shane

[MaineDaddy]

Research has found that carbohydrate loading diets improve endurance athletes’ performance. Carbohydrate loading can be accomplished in two stages: the depletion stage and the carbohydrate loading stage. On day one of the depletion stage, the athlete trains to exhaustion in his or her sport in order to deplete muscle glycogen in specific muscles. The athlete must engage in the sport during this stage because carbohydrate loading only occurs in the specific muscles exercised. For the next three days, a high-fat, low-carbohydrate diet (60–120 grams carbohydrate) is consumed while the athlete trains moderately. During the carbohydrate loading stage, the diet is switched to a high-carbohydrate intake (400–600 grams carbohydrate) for the next three days, while training time is reduced. This will result in muscle glycogen “packing,” increasing the muscle glycogen to a new, higher level.

What I also found was that it is recomended to have a high carb drink just before a race to top off the reserves but it is not recomended to do so during a race.

More info to come...

[kghamilton]

Shane
It sounds like you're doing great. The weight training helps, I'm sure, and I plan to extend my workouts a little bit.

My kids are now 11 (Krisitin) and 10 (Anthony).
I teach special education in an "urban" elementary school.

Its interesting what you wrote about the carb loading. I remember that advice when I ran the races in the eighties. Although I can't prove it right now, it seems to me I read some follow up research that indicated that the extended carb-load was unnecessary and shorter period of time was suitable. I'll have to look at that. I'd love to go through all the posts in the CKD forum; but its hard to find the time (as I listen to Harry Chapin's Cats in the Cradle - how's that for irony).

Anyway, I'm going to do 2 easy miles before breakfast tomorrow, and then start on the carbs. I did a 13 mile time trial in 1:47 2 weeks ago so I'm going to shoot for that. I'll move the carbs back to Friday night next week if I have major problems.

I usually drink some sports drinks on long runs...only water under 10 miles. I'll also take a few gels on runs over 15. The ones with caffeine are great. I'll even sometimes eat a Power Bar on 20+ milers, however I try not to, as they won't be available during the race. As I mentioned in a post to someone else, I try to find out exactly what will be on the course (and where) and simulate that.

I'll let you know whether I hit the wall sunday morning. We're going over to the neighbors, so I know I may have a glass of wine or 2 tonight; you still have to live a little. :D

[kghamilton]

I did about 14 miles today...although it wassn't as good a workout as I had hoped it was pretty good.
Conditions weren't very conducive to running fast, as we are getting huge wind gusts here up to 40-50mph. It was also almost 60 degree, which is wamrer than it has been lately.
I decided to do mile repeats with a half mile jog in between. I then did some easy running and then did sprints on the stadium steps at the local high school. I got a calf cramp at about 12 miles; but I usually don't sprint stairs after doing mile repeats, so I can't really attribute it to the diet. I bought some Accelerade yesterday to try it.

By the way, I've had an interesting discussion going with someone on the BFL exercise forum about diet and running. If you haven't seen it you might want to check it out.

I'm going to get up and run 2 miles as many mornings as possible this week, in addition to my usual mileage. I feel that this will help break through my current weight. This is where I stalled a year ago; but after losing 40 lbs, I didn't mind. Now I'm deteremined to get through it.

[MaineDaddy]

Sounds like quite a workout Ken. I have been pumping the Iron and as foreign a concept it is to me, I think it iw working. I really believe it is a great tool for the weight loss. I'm still running short distances on the tread-mill but you are right it's hard to do strictly LC. Today I ran two miles at a 7:30 pace and felt good. I got into a zone and it went real quick and easy. Gave me flash backs to running for real. I think if I was'nt on the dreded tread-mill I could run a brisk three miles and still feel good. Something about not getting anywhere just is not right. Gotta keep telling myself not to get anxious though...slow and steady....

Anyhow I think I'll try to find the BFL thread you were talking about.

Later,
Shane

[Livvy]

Hi. I saw your BFL thread and posted this message there too. I've been training for a marathon and am just now up to 12 miles. It feels like I've hit a brick wall, though, when I reach 12 miles. I don't run very fast -- about 12-minute miles on long runs -- so when I get to 12 miles I've been running for about 2 and a half hours. I probably eat about 40 carbs a day, but on these long runs sometimes I have that very weak, no energy feeling like I've been fasting. I don't eat fruit, but I do eat low-carb bread (5 grams a slice, 2 slices a day maximum). The short runs are wonderful and I can run them faster. I used to do the short runs on 20 carbs a day with no problem. While I was a competitive middle-distance runner 10 years ago, I don't know anything about marathon running. I've been reading on marathons but all of the training programs seem geared towards a high carb diet. I know everyone's body is different, and it seems that I need more energy, but I don't want sugar or high-carb products to be a part of my life. Have you found anything particularly helpful (i.e. eating more vegetables than meat, less dairy, etc.)? Thanks so much!

Liv

[kghamilton]

Great to see another marathoner.
I really liked the vegetable idea from the BFL forum. That is what I am starting to do. I think no matter what, 40 carbs is too low for running those distances. I think that the person giving me that advice gets more than 40 from the veggies. I also like The Ak-Mak whole wheat crackers as a snack. They give you some carbs and a bit of the protein. I really agree with the authorsof Sugar Busters that the more processed the carbs the worse they are.
AS for low carb bread, I bought a loaf; but at $5 per loaf, it won't be often...

As for the marathon, here is what I call my basics from all my training.

Don't run more than 4 days a week.
Alternate long runs with fast tempo runs or interval training. For example the long run is 12, do a hard 8-9 miles the following week, then 14 then 9-10 hard. I don't worry about pace too much on the long run.

Pick one afternoon evening a week and do a hill training workout. Build up to 8-10 hills of at least 60-90 seconds. With warmup and cooldown, this is a 6-8 mile workout.


My training is always based on these 2 core workouts - hilla nd then alternating long/tempo. I will then fit in some extra workouts around it; but will run easy if my legs are tired.

I peaked at 65 miles as my longest week ever; but now I only run 28-40 miles per week, with a long run building up to marathon distance.

Let me know if you have any questions. The key is quality miles over quantity.

[kghamilton]

Shane,
I'm starting to do more weights too. All upper body though. I do some stretching and hill training for the lower body.
I haven't lost much weight in the last 10 days; but everything is getting loose, so things must be shifting around. I'm pumped. I wore a pair of pants today that I bought a while back *hoping* I would fit into them soon. Well a year later they finally do.
Keep up the good work.

I got up at 4:45 this morning to do my 2.2 miler before work....

[MaineDaddy]

Ken keep it up with the weights. I would bet my bottom dollar that it will get you losing weight again. For one thing it is a new demand on your body, not just the same old running. For another the more muscle mass you have the more fat you can burn. Take it from another runner I know it is a hard concept to lift weights but I really believe it will help more than hurt. An added benifit will be a more balanced machine. Which should mean more efficient.

Livvy- Nice to see another runner in here. Before I met Ken I figured I was the only runner "crazy enough" to go the LC route. I have been out of shape for 10 years so I am trying to get back to it slowly. I can't distinguish between LC fatague and out of shape fatague!! As the pounds drop though the mileage will increase. Nice to meet you.

Shane

[kghamilton]

Shane do you do much lower body weights, or mainly upper body.
This close to the race I'm not going to add in leg weights.

I read an interesting artcile by Dr. Owen Anderson (writes a lot for RW) and he said that hill running is better at building strentgh in legs (for running I guess) than weights.

I mainly do weights at home with a collection of free weights/dumbbells.

I mainly do curls, bent over row, standing military press, flys, tricep pullbacks. I then do a fair amount of bicycle style crunches.

I have a membership at the Y; but never use the weights there.

Any favorite upper body exercises that I should add?

[Livvy]

Great to meet both of you Shane and Ken, and thanks for the advice. Did you know that Nature's Own has a low carb wheat bread available at Publix, Kroger and Walmart (among other stores)? It's 5 net carbs per slice (after deducting fiber) but the whole loaf is only $1.88-$1.99, depending on where you buy it. It's nice when you need fast carbs and it tastes just like regular storebought bread. I've increased my vegetable intake and have worked in low carb breads and crackers. The less processed, the better. Have you ever seen the little Emergence packets at healthfood and nutrition stores? They have a fizzy lite lemon lime variety with less than a carb a packet and no sugar. I add these to my water when I workout to keep my electrolyte levels balanced, and I've noticed a difference. I really need to get busy on my weight lifting -- somehow I've been letting my cross training days become "rest" days.

[MaineDaddy]

I am doing all major muscle groups. I do three Leg machines: Leg-extension,leg-curls, and squats on a leg-sled. I would'nt recomend doing these while running much though. I would stick to the hills, that will strengthen running specific muscles while building in the endourance. Remember I am doing this to lose the weight BEFORE I really start the running. I think you are doing the right thing to work the upper body though...I don't know many runners who could'nt stand a little more balance with the upperbody.
The very fact that I am working my legs three of rour times a week will play into any fatague I feel on my short runs. I will not maintain the strength training on my legs when I break 200 and start to run for real. That way I will not mix up overworked legs with under carbed legs!

Keep up with the lifting though it will reward you in the future.

[kghamilton]

Thanks for the tips about the weights. I love the hill training and I know it works, so I'm going to keep doing that, as well as the upper body weights.

I did some weights in the past; but only when I was usually starving myself to get to a decent marathon weight. I have never really combined proper nutrition and weightlifting, so I think I will see better results than in the past. I'm certainly enjoying it more.

[kghamilton]

Livvy,

Thanks for the tip about the low carb bread. I also need to find a decent health food store.


The one cracker that I have eaten a lot of is the Ak-Mak. They are very versatile. I'm going to raise my carb intake a little bit more. I can't stuff in any more vegetables and I want to minimize fruit intake, so I'll eat those. Good with cheese, salsa, peanut butter, humus, etc.


I am adding these back into my diet, as they are a good source of carbs without causing my any problems. I'm going to stay off the juice though. I've been feeling a little sluggish and tired.