Chris Jain
Wed, Dec-04-02, 21:00
I know this is a bit dated but I just came across Phil's post
below on google...
Several weeks ago, I was reading a book by Pete Egoscue (on
the web at www.egoscue.com) in which he claims that many, many
(most?) people are in a permanent state of hip flexion (see
"Condition 1" at http://www.egoscue.com/htdocs/conditions2.asp
)with the pelvis rotated forward and with lordosis as a
result. He also says this condition causes the feet to be
everted rather than pointing straight ahead. (It was my
impression that Pete Egoscue stated that ANY eversion of the
feet is a symptom of disfunction...)
Pete Egoscue claims that one of the best exercises (he calls
them "e-cises") for this is the "supine groin stretch." This
involved lying flat on your back for long periods of time (up
to 45 minutes for each leg) with one straight out flat on the
floor and the other leg resting on top of a chair with the
knee at a 90 degree angle.
Anyone ever heard of anything like this before? Much of what
Egoscue says about people not getting enough excercise and
having weaknesses and disfunctions as a result seemed to make
sense to me but some of it left me skeptical. For example, if
just about everyone is in "hip flexion" all the time why is
Egoscue the only one (that I'm aware off) talking about this.
Does something like the "supine groin stretch" have any
merit? Comments?
=======
"Phil Caravaggio" <pcNOSPAM@johnberardi.com> wrote in
news:uvj79.28175$Bj.2161412@read2.cgocable.net: ... First, let
me address the question of whether it works or not. The answer
is a yes, it works. I've used it to successfully correct this
exact problem on myself. In addition, I've shown the
techniques to quite a few others in the same predicament, with
nothing but positive results to show for
it. But I must qualify that statement - those I know that
have used these techniques (myself included) were in
pretty good physical condition (by that I mean not
overfat), and none of them had severe issues which would
require medical attention. All of them were fit enough to
train. What I'm getting at here is that you must use your
good judgment to determine whether you are fit enough to
try to correct this in the gym, or whether you should
seek medical attention. In other words, use common sense.
You asked a lot of questions, and I'll do my best to answer
them. It may seem confusing at first, but the more you
consider it, the more logical it seems. Without delving too
deeply into anatomy, let me explain what I perceive to be the
issue with lordosis. One, excessive hip flexion (the forward
pelvic tilt you mention), two, excessive lumbar
extension/hyperextension (excessive curvature of the lower
spine). Not good. What you want is a balance between hip
flexion and hip extension (tilting the hip back), and between
lumbar extension and lumbar flexion (reducing the curvature of
the lower spine).
So you have essentially two groups of opposing muscles -- the
hip flexors oppose the hip extensors, and the lumbar extensors
oppose the lumbar flexors. In each group, there is likely a
muscle strength and/or length imbalance. That is, the hip
flexors are stronger and/or shorter than the hip
extensors(which results in the excessive forward pelvis tilt),
and the lumbar extensors are stronger and/or longer than the
lumbar flexors (hence the excessive lower spine curvature) .
I'll address each group in turn.
With respect to the hip, you would want to strengthen the hip
extensors.and lengthen or stretch the hip flexors. That is,
you want to strengthen the muscles that will help reverse the
excessive forward tilt of the pelvis (the hip extensors), and
stretch the muscles the are keeping the pelvis tilted forward
(the hip flexors). Strengthen the hip extensors, lengthen the
hip flexors. In other words, strengthen the glutes and
hamstrings (hip extensors), lengthen/stretch the psoas and
quads (hip flexors). The anatomy is a little more complicated
than that, but that will serve you fine for now. If you want
more, go to http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Hip.html and you
can read all about the various muscles involved.
With respect to the lumbar spine, you would want to strengthen
the lumbar flexors and stretch the lumbar extensors. That is,
you want to strengthen the muscles that will reduce the
excessive curvature of the lower spine (the lumbar flexors)
and lengthen/stretch the muscles that may be keeping the
lumbar spine excessively curved. A word of caution though: In
my own experience I have found stretching the lumbar extensors
to be unnecessary, and some find it painful. If that is the
case, don't do it. Use your discretion. I focus primarily on
strengthening the lumbar extensors. I also reduce the exercise
volume I devote to lumbar extension, hence my suggestion not
to prioritize Hyperextensions in the training program (more on
hypers later). Bottom line, strengthen the abs (the lumbar
flexors), lay a bit off the erector spinae training (the
lumbar extensors). Again, if you want more detail go to
http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Spine.html#anchor164498 and
you can find
iu.
In fact, while you are at exrx.net, check out the little
animated gif of the guy doing the Hyperextensions (http://www-
.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/WtBackExtension.html).
This is exactly how most people do Hypers -- lots of lumbar
extension, very little hip extension. Hip stays stationary,
lower spine does a whole lot of bending. The lumbar extensors
are primary movers, the hip extensors merely synergists. So in
essence, you're emphasizing the muscles that should be
de-emphasized (erector spinae), and de-emphasizing the muscles
that should be emphasized (glutes, hams). Not what I want. The
position of the pad (on the hips) restricts the movement of
the hip, and moves the axis of rotation to the lumbar spine.
However, adjust it so that the pad is resting against your
thighs and its a whole new exercise. The hip can rotate
freely, the hip extensors become primary movers, and the
erector spinae become stabilizers if done correctly. What is
'correctly'? Keep the lumbar spine neutral (not excessively
extended nor flexed), and go only as far down as you can
without changing the neutrality of the spine. Don't let it
flex forward at the bottom, and don't hyperextend it at the
top. I want the erector spinae to be stabilizers, not primary
movers. Of course, most people can only do one or two reps
like this at first. Why? Because their hip extensors are weak!
But I'd rather that than 15 reps using form that will likely
exacerbate the problem. The focus here should be on the glutes
and hamstrings, not the erector spinae.
You might say that this flies in the face of conventional
thought. Maybe your buddy told you that if your lower back
hurts, you should work on training your lower back. You
thought that sounded reasonable. Maybe you even tried it, you
hopped on the hyper bench and busted a gut. My guess is that
probably didn't help. If it did work, then by all means keep
doing it. Don't get me wrong, there is some benefit to doing
hypers, even the conventional way. They do strengthen the
erector spinae, and in many cases the erector spinae are weak
and need to be strengthened. However, the hip extensors
(glutes, hams) and lumbar flexors(abs) are probably even
weaker! You've got to prioritize those muscles over the
erector spinae in order to correct the imbalance, and in turn
your posture. So do the hypers if you must, but prioritize
the other muscles by volume (devote more time to them) and
order (place them first in the training session and in the
training week).
Ian King's distinction between quad-dominant vs. hip-dominant
exercises is simply used to help determine whether your
training is balanced. He never says that squats are bad, just
that most people do them much more often than deadlifts, and
an imbalance often ensues. He also teaches the squat using a
technique that emphasizes the glutes, hamstrings, and abs, and
de-emphasizes the hip flexors. He has written articles about
his techniques, books as well. I'll post a few links below.
To address another question that was asked: Why focus on
lower/transverse abs? Why not? They're weak and need training,
and training them will help to alleviate the postural problem.
Rectus and obliques are lumbar flexors, transverse and
obliques generate intra-abdominal pressure which supports the
lumbar spine. How:
Transverse: http://www.t-mag.com/articles/169ab.html Abs in
general: http://www.t-mag.com/html/123abs.html
Stretching:
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/HipFlexors/Lunge.html
http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_89lazy.html
King also has his own site which has an index of the articles
he's written. You can read them to learn the exercises and
more about the rationale behind their selection:
http://www.kingsports.net/articles.htm
In the next day or two I'll post again on specific exercises
and strategies.
I'm sure some will not agree with my opinion, and some will
simply dismiss it out of hand. That's fine - c'est la vie.
Ultimately what people think is irrelevant, it's results that
count. I can't tell you what to do, I can only relate why I
know has worked in the past and let you decide for yourself.
Use your own judgment. Is it guaranteed to work in every case?
Of course not. Is it worth a shot? I think so.
below on google...
Several weeks ago, I was reading a book by Pete Egoscue (on
the web at www.egoscue.com) in which he claims that many, many
(most?) people are in a permanent state of hip flexion (see
"Condition 1" at http://www.egoscue.com/htdocs/conditions2.asp
)with the pelvis rotated forward and with lordosis as a
result. He also says this condition causes the feet to be
everted rather than pointing straight ahead. (It was my
impression that Pete Egoscue stated that ANY eversion of the
feet is a symptom of disfunction...)
Pete Egoscue claims that one of the best exercises (he calls
them "e-cises") for this is the "supine groin stretch." This
involved lying flat on your back for long periods of time (up
to 45 minutes for each leg) with one straight out flat on the
floor and the other leg resting on top of a chair with the
knee at a 90 degree angle.
Anyone ever heard of anything like this before? Much of what
Egoscue says about people not getting enough excercise and
having weaknesses and disfunctions as a result seemed to make
sense to me but some of it left me skeptical. For example, if
just about everyone is in "hip flexion" all the time why is
Egoscue the only one (that I'm aware off) talking about this.
Does something like the "supine groin stretch" have any
merit? Comments?
=======
"Phil Caravaggio" <pcNOSPAM@johnberardi.com> wrote in
news:uvj79.28175$Bj.2161412@read2.cgocable.net: ... First, let
me address the question of whether it works or not. The answer
is a yes, it works. I've used it to successfully correct this
exact problem on myself. In addition, I've shown the
techniques to quite a few others in the same predicament, with
nothing but positive results to show for
it. But I must qualify that statement - those I know that
have used these techniques (myself included) were in
pretty good physical condition (by that I mean not
overfat), and none of them had severe issues which would
require medical attention. All of them were fit enough to
train. What I'm getting at here is that you must use your
good judgment to determine whether you are fit enough to
try to correct this in the gym, or whether you should
seek medical attention. In other words, use common sense.
You asked a lot of questions, and I'll do my best to answer
them. It may seem confusing at first, but the more you
consider it, the more logical it seems. Without delving too
deeply into anatomy, let me explain what I perceive to be the
issue with lordosis. One, excessive hip flexion (the forward
pelvic tilt you mention), two, excessive lumbar
extension/hyperextension (excessive curvature of the lower
spine). Not good. What you want is a balance between hip
flexion and hip extension (tilting the hip back), and between
lumbar extension and lumbar flexion (reducing the curvature of
the lower spine).
So you have essentially two groups of opposing muscles -- the
hip flexors oppose the hip extensors, and the lumbar extensors
oppose the lumbar flexors. In each group, there is likely a
muscle strength and/or length imbalance. That is, the hip
flexors are stronger and/or shorter than the hip
extensors(which results in the excessive forward pelvis tilt),
and the lumbar extensors are stronger and/or longer than the
lumbar flexors (hence the excessive lower spine curvature) .
I'll address each group in turn.
With respect to the hip, you would want to strengthen the hip
extensors.and lengthen or stretch the hip flexors. That is,
you want to strengthen the muscles that will help reverse the
excessive forward tilt of the pelvis (the hip extensors), and
stretch the muscles the are keeping the pelvis tilted forward
(the hip flexors). Strengthen the hip extensors, lengthen the
hip flexors. In other words, strengthen the glutes and
hamstrings (hip extensors), lengthen/stretch the psoas and
quads (hip flexors). The anatomy is a little more complicated
than that, but that will serve you fine for now. If you want
more, go to http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Hip.html and you
can read all about the various muscles involved.
With respect to the lumbar spine, you would want to strengthen
the lumbar flexors and stretch the lumbar extensors. That is,
you want to strengthen the muscles that will reduce the
excessive curvature of the lower spine (the lumbar flexors)
and lengthen/stretch the muscles that may be keeping the
lumbar spine excessively curved. A word of caution though: In
my own experience I have found stretching the lumbar extensors
to be unnecessary, and some find it painful. If that is the
case, don't do it. Use your discretion. I focus primarily on
strengthening the lumbar extensors. I also reduce the exercise
volume I devote to lumbar extension, hence my suggestion not
to prioritize Hyperextensions in the training program (more on
hypers later). Bottom line, strengthen the abs (the lumbar
flexors), lay a bit off the erector spinae training (the
lumbar extensors). Again, if you want more detail go to
http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Spine.html#anchor164498 and
you can find
iu.
In fact, while you are at exrx.net, check out the little
animated gif of the guy doing the Hyperextensions (http://www-
.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/WtBackExtension.html).
This is exactly how most people do Hypers -- lots of lumbar
extension, very little hip extension. Hip stays stationary,
lower spine does a whole lot of bending. The lumbar extensors
are primary movers, the hip extensors merely synergists. So in
essence, you're emphasizing the muscles that should be
de-emphasized (erector spinae), and de-emphasizing the muscles
that should be emphasized (glutes, hams). Not what I want. The
position of the pad (on the hips) restricts the movement of
the hip, and moves the axis of rotation to the lumbar spine.
However, adjust it so that the pad is resting against your
thighs and its a whole new exercise. The hip can rotate
freely, the hip extensors become primary movers, and the
erector spinae become stabilizers if done correctly. What is
'correctly'? Keep the lumbar spine neutral (not excessively
extended nor flexed), and go only as far down as you can
without changing the neutrality of the spine. Don't let it
flex forward at the bottom, and don't hyperextend it at the
top. I want the erector spinae to be stabilizers, not primary
movers. Of course, most people can only do one or two reps
like this at first. Why? Because their hip extensors are weak!
But I'd rather that than 15 reps using form that will likely
exacerbate the problem. The focus here should be on the glutes
and hamstrings, not the erector spinae.
You might say that this flies in the face of conventional
thought. Maybe your buddy told you that if your lower back
hurts, you should work on training your lower back. You
thought that sounded reasonable. Maybe you even tried it, you
hopped on the hyper bench and busted a gut. My guess is that
probably didn't help. If it did work, then by all means keep
doing it. Don't get me wrong, there is some benefit to doing
hypers, even the conventional way. They do strengthen the
erector spinae, and in many cases the erector spinae are weak
and need to be strengthened. However, the hip extensors
(glutes, hams) and lumbar flexors(abs) are probably even
weaker! You've got to prioritize those muscles over the
erector spinae in order to correct the imbalance, and in turn
your posture. So do the hypers if you must, but prioritize
the other muscles by volume (devote more time to them) and
order (place them first in the training session and in the
training week).
Ian King's distinction between quad-dominant vs. hip-dominant
exercises is simply used to help determine whether your
training is balanced. He never says that squats are bad, just
that most people do them much more often than deadlifts, and
an imbalance often ensues. He also teaches the squat using a
technique that emphasizes the glutes, hamstrings, and abs, and
de-emphasizes the hip flexors. He has written articles about
his techniques, books as well. I'll post a few links below.
To address another question that was asked: Why focus on
lower/transverse abs? Why not? They're weak and need training,
and training them will help to alleviate the postural problem.
Rectus and obliques are lumbar flexors, transverse and
obliques generate intra-abdominal pressure which supports the
lumbar spine. How:
Transverse: http://www.t-mag.com/articles/169ab.html Abs in
general: http://www.t-mag.com/html/123abs.html
Stretching:
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/HipFlexors/Lunge.html
http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_89lazy.html
King also has his own site which has an index of the articles
he's written. You can read them to learn the exercises and
more about the rationale behind their selection:
http://www.kingsports.net/articles.htm
In the next day or two I'll post again on specific exercises
and strategies.
I'm sure some will not agree with my opinion, and some will
simply dismiss it out of hand. That's fine - c'est la vie.
Ultimately what people think is irrelevant, it's results that
count. I can't tell you what to do, I can only relate why I
know has worked in the past and let you decide for yourself.
Use your own judgment. Is it guaranteed to work in every case?
Of course not. Is it worth a shot? I think so.