Substitute for flour in a roux?

[paradux]

Hi, Karen,

I posted this question in main dishes, but didn't get any suggestions so I thought I would try here.

Does anyone have a decent substitute for the flour in a roux? I am not sure whether the Atkins bake mix, wheat gluten, or soy flour will perform well here for thickening.
(This was for a beef burgundy.)

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

--Liz

[Karen]

Some people use xanthan gum for thickening. About 1/4 - 1/2 tsp. per cup of liquid shopuld do it.

I like the "natural" approach. I either reduce the cooking liquid - it helps if you start out with a stock as the braising liquid for its thickening power - and then add a bit of cream and reduce it even further. Or, I use cooked and well pureed cauliflower.

Karen

[paradux]

Thanks, Karen!

The "natural way" is exactly what I wound up doing. I reduced the liquid considerably then just added a little butter to finish the sauce. Yummy!
:yum:

[Sandylee]

Not quite a roux, but I was very surprised to find on the Atkins website, a little whole wheat flour being used as a thickener for gravy. Basically it was deglazing the pan with wine, and adding broth. I reduced the turkey giblet and neck broth before adding it. It was delicious but didn't quite feel legal :)

http://atkinscenter.com/food/recipes/all/Country_Style_Stuffed_Turkey.html

[paradux]

Sandy,

Thanks - I did see that one on the Atkins site (where I've found a LOT of wonderful recipes). I've been trying to avoid ALL wheat (except for the gluten), at least for now.

I have a cooking reference book at home - the author is Harold McGee, the book is "On Food and Cooking". The book has all manner of items related to the physical chemistry of cooking (such as what makes meat tender or tough, etc.) as well as some info on digestion and nutrition. Hopefully I can find exactly (at the molecular level) what causes a roux to thicken. I suspect it's the starch portion of whatever is used in the roux, but I'll see what he has to say. If it's in there, I'll post back! :cool:

--Liz

[paradux]

Hi,

I checked the McGee book (which is a very interesting read, BTW) and sure enough, it's the starch that gets a roux to thicken things. Some other interesting tidbits - back before wheat flour was used to thicken, there is mention of almonds being used. I'm sure they would have to be ground (or made into flour) and probably cooked for a fair amount of time. Also, one of the other thickening agents mentioned was egg yolks (a la Hollandaise sauce or Avgolemono soup). I don't think I'd want to use egg yolks in a beef stew type recipe, but it sounds good for some chicken based soups!

Happy cooking...

[Rainbowgc]

What about soy flour, would that work?
Erika

[paradux]

Hi, Erika,

I thought about soy flour - but I'm not sure there's enough starch in it to make it work. Maybe I'll try it with a small batch and see.

Thanks!

[Sandylee]

Let us know, Liz, okay?
I was thinking that soya might be a little too "beany", but maybe it would work.

[noladq]

Hi Y'all,

I live outside New Orleans, where every recipe starts with "First, you make a roux."

Roux is the base of gravy, gumbo, and bechamel sauce to begin with.

There are two ways we use it here. One is a dark roux, used especially in gumbo and etoufee. You heat equal parts flour and butter over low heat for about 20 minutes, stirring constantly. You almost burn the flour slowly. This is what gives gumbo both it's flavor and thick texture.

The other is the light roux. For this you heat equal parts, but you don't cook it so long. Just till it turns light to golden. This is the basis of bechamel (add milk) or bisque soups, etc.

When I saw the topic I was quite excited, but unfortunately, you are talking about mere thickeners, not the flavor part.

Another way to thicken is to add heavy cream and cook it down a bit.

If you can think of any way to make the "flavor" part of roux, I'd be glad to hear it!

Thanks,
Loni

[paradux]

Hi, Loni,

I'm not from New Orleans and I only have a couple of cookbooks from there (one of Emeril's and Talk About Good! volume 2), but you're right - they all begin with "first you make a roux". I'm not an expert on what the flavor part of it SHOULD be, but whenever I get around to playing in the kitchen and testing a couple of possibilities, I'll post whatever I come up with.

It probably WILL NOT taste like I used regular white flour in it, but I'll see what (if anything) both thickens and tastes halfway decent. The butter part is easy, but I think the flour part is going to be tough.

Nice to hear from you!

[hockeymom]

I know that this thread is a little older but I thought I would post anyway. In the atkins diet cookbook they use eggs as thickeners.

It says Two egg yolks are equal to 1 tablespoon flour or thickener. Beat eggs in a separate bowl and add 1/4 cup of sauce to be thickened to the bowl. Beat together well. When eggs are blended with sauce add egg mixture to sauce- stir constantly over low flame until it thickens. Do not boil because the eggs with scramble.

I hope this helps someone.

[jjb2000]

This thread is old so I assume no one found a real substitute for the roux? I really want to make my etoufee recipe but the roux is important.

[Nancy LC]

I wonder if resistant wheat starch would work? Its a starch that passes through undigested. I don't eat wheat but I do have have resistant corn starch and it actually acts a lot like corn starch does. You can get these things at Honeyville Grains (google should find them).

[IslandGirl]

I wonder if resistant wheat starch would work? Its a starch that passes through undigested. I don't eat wheat but I do have have resistant corn starch and it actually acts a lot like corn starch does. You can get these things at Honeyville Grains (google should find them).

I haven't had a chance to trial the resistant wheat or corn starch yet, personally, though I recall somewhere in the back of my brain that NulloModo may have done this testing some time ago, (posted) either on AtkinsAllTheWay or AtkinsDietBulletinBoard (or maybe LowCarbFriends? I get SO confused these days!:o:help::o ) and that the resistant starches lose their thickening/"gelatinization" along with their digestibility...

I can verify, however, that the Carbalose flour works really well! I whipped up a Chicken Pot Pie the other day (just had that winterfood hankering ;) ), used the Carbalose {for the first time, btw} to thicken the veg and meat and then topped the whole thing with a drop biscuit mix whipped up with the Carbquik. What a yummy fast comfort food meal!

[Nancy LC]

Ok, my tests with resistant corn starch have found it rather disappointing for thickening. I tried to use it in a lemon sauce in place of regular corn starch and it just didn't work.

[theoldlady]

Hi IslandGirl,

How much Carbalose did you use for how much liquid? What method did you use to make it?

I had disappointing results making a butter/Carbalose roux in the usual manner. I used 1 tbsp Carbalose per cup of pan drippings because Carbalose is supposed to be 1:1 for regular flour. I got three layers, one fat, one broth, and one very thick and gooey "settled out" layer on the bottom. After stirring, it was still too watery. It tasted great, though, and I'd like to make it again and have it be regular-like but low carb gravy.

[IslandGirl]

Hi IslandGirl,

How much Carbalose did you use for how much liquid? What method did you use to make it?

I had disappointing results making a butter/Carbalose roux in the usual manner. I used 1 tbsp Carbalose per cup of pan drippings because Carbalose is supposed to be 1:1 for regular flour. I got three layers, one fat, one broth, and one very thick and gooey "settled out" layer on the bottom. After stirring, it was still too watery. It tasted great, though, and I'd like to make it again and have it be regular-like but low carb gravy.

Hey there. Hmmmmm. My 'usual' manner of making a butter roux would be roughly equal amounts of fat and 'flour', then adding flour til all fats are absorbed (none floating around on top). Usually end up with about 10% more flour than fat, by weight. And no liquids at this point (in other words, separate the pan drippings before making the roux). That's the classical method and probably the root cause of your 3 layers... ;)

That being said, with the bechamel/roux I read about on another website, more Carbalose was used than would be used for a traditional bechamel, but that's hearsay on my part.

As for my chicken pot pie, I pretty much used the 'dump' method. I cooked the chicken pieces (boneless skinless thigh chunks) in a few tablespoons of oil, added in and sauteed the chopped onion and celery and a bit of small diced carrot (and my secret seasonings :lol: ) and when all was cooked to satisfaction (and no liquids other than some fat on the bottom of the pan) added tablespoonsful of Carbalose, stirring madly, til all fats were absorbed and there were no 'dry' spots to be seen, off the heat. Back on low heat and I stirred in chicken broth in, say, 1/4 cup increments til I had a thick enough sauce. Didn't take long to thicken, either :lol: so keep stirring.

Then into the casserole dishes, top with a quick drop biscuit (it's on the box) and into the oven, 350 for maybe 20-25 minutes. Very tasty.

Hope that helps?

[jjb2000]

I've considered using carbalose but haven't tried it yet because it said it was a substitute for wheat flour so I was afraid it would put a wheat taste in the roux. Maybe I will try it. I did try a little corn starch and that definitely did not work.

[IslandGirl]

This thread is old so I assume no one found a real substitute for the roux? I really want to make my etoufee recipe but the roux is important.

Someone else has come up with a recipe that seems to work for a gumbo/etoufee, and another southener, too! She used Vital Wheat Gluten for the wheat flour portion of the classic roux.

http://www.lowcarbtransformation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298&highlight=gumbo

Take a look, it's interesting. I'll stick with the carbalose but there ARE alternatives using readily available ingredients.

ps: a quick google came up with this one in no time.
pps: gumbo file powder (sassafrass) is the traditional thickener, if my reading is right...no wheat flour roux required.

[jjb2000]

I made a roux using Carbalose instead of white flour and it did just fine. I couldn't tell any difference in taste. Had crawfish etouffee--that was a real treat.

[theoldlady]

My 'usual' manner of making a butter roux would be roughly equal amounts of fat and 'flour', then adding flour til all fats are absorbed (none floating around on top). Usually end up with about 10% more flour than fat, by weight. And no liquids at this point (in other words, separate the pan drippings before making the roux). That's the classical method and probably the root cause of your 3 layers.Oh! How did I miss this? Sorry it's taken me so long to explain.

Yes, you're right. That's how I've made dozens if not hundreds of roux, and this was my first failure. But I read here somewhere (forgive me, I forget where) that some WPI is more agglutinating than others, and I may have carbalose flour made with the lighter WPI. I'll try adding some VWG next time. Thing is that I just don't make roux that often anymore. But rest assured that I will have perfected it before trying it on Christmas dinner! :lol:

Thanks for all your help and advice with this.

[IslandGirl]

...That's how I've made dozens if not hundreds of roux, and this was my first failure. But I read here somewhere (forgive me, I forget where) that some WPI is more agglutinating than others, and I may have carbalose flour made with the lighter WPI. I'll try adding some VWG next time. Thing is that I just don't make roux that often anymore. .. :lol:


My turn to be confused :help: ...can you tell me why you think that the "agglutinating" action of any WPI/Vital Wheat Gluten (...note that Carbalose is, BTW, not officially made with WPI but officially made with a proprietal enzyme-modified wheat flour, whatever that means...) would make a difference to whether you had fluids other than liquid fat in your 1st-stage roux? I still make my roux with only fat and "flour" in that first stage, to avoid separation...and it seems to be working ;)

[theoldlady]

Hi Jude,

Oh, massive confusion. Yes! I made the roux in the normal way, that is, stirring and heating butter and (in this case carbalose) flour until the flour smells toasted and the water from the butter is completely evaporated. Then, still stirring over the heat, I added the pan drippings. This is the way I have always made my roux, and as I said I have never had a failure before. In fact, I thought roux were so idiot proof (required in my case) that they could never go wrong, so the failure was quite a shock. Good thing it tasted good, or it would have ruined my Thanksgiving! Well... :rolleyes:

Now that you know that I actually made the roux correctly, do you have any pointers? I must confess to not making any more roux because I usually use pureed mushrooms for a thickener these (low carb) days, but I wanted to make "real" gravy for dh for the holidays.

Coming up for Christmas, roast prime rib with (I hope) a nice, thick "real" gravy. :help:

[Nancy LC]

I think they often add 1 cup of good wine to pan drippings and let it "cook down". But sometimes that is too strong so 1/2 cup of water with 1/2 cup of wine is preferred by some. Or use a broth instead of water. The cooking down intensifies the taste.

[IslandGirl]

Hi Jude,

Oh, massive confusion. Yes! I made the roux in the normal way, that is, stirring and heating butter and (in this case carbalose) flour until the flour smells toasted and the water from the butter is completely evaporated. Then, still stirring over the heat, I added the pan drippings. This is the way I have always made my roux, and as I said I have never had a failure before. In fact, I thought roux were so idiot proof (required in my case) that they could never go wrong, so the failure was quite a shock. Good thing it tasted good, or it would have ruined my Thanksgiving! Well... :rolleyes:

Now that you know that I actually made the roux correctly, do you have any pointers? ... :help:

Ok, there's one thing that catches my eye, and that is that well-browned flour (keeping in mind this is flour, the effect may be intensified with carbalose and its low digestible starch content) absorbs less fat so you need more flour to do the same job. In short, I think you might have overcooked your roux, reduced the absorption capabilities of the carbalose/flour, hence the separation on adding the drippings (which also contain fat?).

My success with the roux so far has been with white or blond roux, haven't yet tackled a brown roux or toasted 'flour'. If I DID ;) I'd automatically think I needed more flour/carbalose (and BTW, where toasting the roux/flour comes in, I'd toast first -- toasting 15% more minimum, with carbalose probably 30%+ -- then stir into the fat until all the fat is absorbed, etc. etc.). If more color is then needed, I'd use my standby of Kitchen Bouquet or {{secret! but it's got good color}}...and for more flavor I'd go with some of that red wine NancyLC mentioned and maybe some worcestershire sauce, etc, as flavor boosters. Hope this helps!

[theoldlady]

Oh, excellent! Thanks a ton, Jude. Tomorrow is my big "trying to make the gravy" day, and I'll let you know what happens.

[Dorr185]

I just make my gumbo without the roux. It's a bit more soupy, but the roux doesn't really add any flavor IMO. Besides, I use okra in my gumbo, and that thickens it up plenty for me.