advice on dieting

[Tim]

Over the past couple years we've made some positive changes,
but I guess not enough. Tim's numbers went up badly recently
and wouldn't come down to stay. The doc added Amaryl to the
Avandia. Even on the new meds, Tim's BG numbers are still off.
But he did see his first reading of 89 since becoming a
diabetic. Unfortunately it went back to almost 200 later in
the day, food related. The doc said to give the meds a while
to work. We are ready to make more drastic changes now. The
doc said to lose weight.......so.......

How effective is the Atkins' diet? What about that
cabbage/vegetable soup diet?

What if the diet sends you into ketosis? I heard this was bad
for diabetics?

How do you guys deal practically with the many smaller meals a
day issue if you have a very busy job?

I've heard that moderate to slow walking is more effective
than jogging on glucose control? What about weight lifting?

Thanks in advance, Beth

[Julie Bove]

"Tim" <tims@NOSPAMPLEASEiowatelecom.net> wrote in message
news:appqbo$4v1$1@ins22.netins.net...
> Over the past couple years we've made some positive changes,
> but I guess
not
> enough. Tim's numbers went up badly recently and wouldn't
> come down to
stay.
> The doc added Amaryl to the Avandia. Even on the new meds,
> Tim's BG
numbers
> are still off. But he did see his first reading of 89 since
> becoming a diabetic. Unfortunately it went back to almost
> 200 later in the day, food related. The doc said to give the
> meds a while to work. We are ready to
make
> more drastic changes now. The doc said to lose
> weight.......so.......
>
> How effective is the Atkins' diet? What about that
> cabbage/vegetable soup diet?

The problem with diets is that you have to find one that you
can stick to. If you can't, then it isn't going to work. And
losing weight then putting it back on again tends to add more
fat to your body. How long has he been on the Amaryl? It might
take a couple of weeks to see a change.

I don't know a lot about the Atkins' diet except that it is
fairly high in fat and protein. This kind of diet would not
work for me because I would be very hungry and feel sleepy and
unwell. Some people like this style of eating. So for them, it
might work. But from what I have read, the only reason people
lose weight on this diet is that they have stopped eating all
those carbs. They are consuming less calories merely by
stopping the eating of certain foods. It is also a diet that
many people can't stick to.

The cabbage soup diet is merely a fat diet. It is NOT
nutritionally sound and certainly not one a diabetic should be
on. The soup itself contains no protein or fat. So what do you
have left? Carbs! Granted, not a lot of carbs, but still
nothing else.

Has he seen a dietician? That would be my first move.
Additional exercise would be the second. And keep in mind that
while he might want very much to lose the weight and may even
be sticking to the diet and excerise, the weight still may not
come off. Some people just seem to have a setpoint and they
can't seem to do much to change that.
>
> What if the diet sends you into ketosis? I heard this
> was bad for
diabetics?

You are thinking of Ketoacidosis. That is something that
you can get from really high BG. It is usually type 1's
who get that.
>
> How do you guys deal practically with the many smaller meals
> a day issue
if
> you have a very busy job?

I don't do the many smaller meals. I do three meals and a
snack. That works for me. Strangely, before I got diabetes, I
was a grazer, eating many small meals. The way I mangaged to
do this at work was to take something with me that I could eat
quickly. Often, this was a Slim Fast bar or a Tiger's Milk
bar. I would rarely eat the whole thing, but break it into two
or three pieces. If I felt the need to eat, I could quickly
grab a piece and carry on. Don't think that would work too
well for a diabetic though. Probably too many carbs. As a
diabetic, I find that I rarely get hungry. So I don't think I
could pull off the many meals thing. Plus, I am taking
Starlix. The way that works is that I take it with every meal.
I don't think you are supposed to take it any more often than
three times a day.
>
> I've heard that moderate to slow walking is more effective
> than jogging on glucose control? What about weight lifting?

Don't know about the walking vs. running. Weight lifting is
excellent! I try to do it several times a day.

--
Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/ Julie Bove, posting
from new account

[Bubba]

In article <appqbo$4v1$1@ins22.netins.net> "Tim"
<tims@NOSPAMPLEASEiowatelecom.net> writes:

>Over the past couple years we've made some positive changes,
>but I guess not enough. Tim's numbers went up badly recently
>and wouldn't come down to stay. The doc added Amaryl to the
>Avandia. Even on the new meds, Tim's BG numbers are still
>off. But he did see his first reading of 89 since becoming a
>diabetic. Unfortunately it went back to almost 200 later in
>the day, food related. The doc said to give the meds a while
>to work. We are ready to make more drastic changes now. The
>doc said to lose weight.......so.......

If as you say it was "food related" then you already know what
the problem is -and- how to correct it. My guess is Tim is (as
I was) eating too much of the wrong food. He's *got to* cut
down on the carbs and cut the portion sizes. If he's used to
eating until full, that also needs to change. That's not to
suggest he needs to go around hungry all the time, but if he's
gorging himself at meals, that absolutely needs to change. If
he's hungry, encourage salads. The veggies are usually free
and he can eat all he wants of those. By contrast he needs to
stay away from the potatoes and fried foods. Baked chicken is
good for you. Fried chicken is bad for you. Fish is good,
fried fish is bad.

My dietician has me on a max of 45 grams of carbs for
breakfast, no mid-morning snack, 30 g of carbs for lunch, 15 g
of carbs for an afternoon snack, 75 g of carbs for dinner and
another 15 g of carbs for a bedtime snack. We try to work this
formula into a 2200 calorie per day diet

Beware that most "sugar-free" snacks aren't carb free. It's
the carbs that's running his numbers up.

>How do you guys deal practically with the many smaller meals
>a day issue if you have a very busy job?

Improvise.. overcome.. adapt. Dealing with diabetes is all
about making changes. That includes working your meal plans
into your daily schedule. Or in other words, working your
schedule around your meal plan. You either deal with the
diabetes and the lifestyle changes it requires or suffer the
consequences. Personally I'm pretty fond of living.

>I've heard that moderate to slow walking is more effective
>than jogging on glucose control? What about weight lifting?

Any type of exercise is better than none, but everyone I've
talked to seems to agree that walking is the best. Swimming is
also excellent, tho not many of us have access to a pool. For
walking exercise my Dr. recommends 30 minutes a day. That can
be split into two 15-minute walks or three 10-minute walks or
four 7½ minute walks, etc., however you want to break it up as
long as you do a minimum of 30 minutes a day, every day.

Very important, Don't plop down after eating. About 30 minutes
after eating, go for that walk. Exercise.

[Bj]

"Tim" <tims@NOSPAMPLEASEiowatelecom.net> wrote in message
news:appqbo$4v1$1@ins22.netins.net...
>
> I've heard that moderate to slow walking is more effective
> than jogging on
glucose control? What about weight lifting?
>

The best exercise is the one you will actually do --
consistently and long term. (Hmmm, sounds kinda like the best
diet.) The best time to exercise is -- drum roll please --
when you will actually do it!

No good knowing what "perfect" is if you won't do it and it
keeps you from doing "less than ideal but at least something".

Start slow & easy, don't overdo it, don't court injury, listen
to your body. Increase time and vigor gradually. For walking
or jogging be sure to get shoes that fit properly and offer
good support, and sox that won't rub at the seams.

I walk some days, I jog some days, I do very little weight
training (I had to do too much of it in rehabs, it took all
the fun out of it, yeah, I know, I *should* do it. Sorry I'm
not perfect.) Sometimes I do short stints on an arm-cycle or a
mini-stepper.

And note that sometimes your bg is actually *higher* right
after vigorous exercise but may drop fairly soon. "Vigorous"
is individually defined. bj

[Bj]

"Bubba" <wdg@NoSpam.hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:q511su0tkbj17gka9bo7ep68g5ouoefcd8@4ax.com...
>
> You either deal with the diabetes and the lifestyle changes
> it requires or
suffer the consequences.
>

And some of those consequences can mean dealing with a LOT
more than changes in your eating and exercise habits -- and by
then you may have little or no choice in the matter.

Is that why it's called "control"??? bj

[Mary Sue W]

"Tim" <tims@NOSPAMPLEASEiowatelecom.net> wrote in message
news:<appqbo$4v1$1@ins22.netins.net>...
> Over the past couple years we've made some positive changes,
> but I guess not enough. Tim's numbers went up badly recently
> and wouldn't come down to stay. The doc added Amaryl to the
> Avandia. Even on the new meds, Tim's BG numbers are still
> off. But he did see his first reading of 89 since becoming a
> diabetic. Unfortunately it went back to almost 200 later in
> the day, food related. The doc said to give the meds a while
> to work. We are ready to make more drastic changes now. The
> doc said to lose weight.......so.......
>
> How effective is the Atkins' diet? What about that
> cabbage/vegetable soup diet?

Check out the low carb group at alt.support.diet.low-carb.
There are many diabetics using Atkins for control. I'm using
it and after the first week my bg's came down from 200's to a
range of 70-130.
>
> What if the diet sends you into ketosis? I heard this was
> bad for diabetics?

Ketosis is a body process where you burn fat for energy rather
than carbs. It's perfectly natural and occurs every night
during sleep.
>
> How do you guys deal practically with the many smaller meals
> a day issue if you have a very busy job?

How often you eat is not as important as what and how much you
eat. Remember, its carbs that have to be controlled.
>
> I've heard that moderate to slow walking is more effective
> than jogging on glucose control? What about weight lifting?

Exercises that typically involve cardiovascular workouts can
raise blood sugar to cope with the demands of the stress of
the workout. Resistance exercise (weight lifting) and
non-stressful exercise (walking) burn glucose and lower
blood sugar.
>
> Thanks in advance, Beth

Hope this helps.

[Jmmbear]

In article <us10rol1u2g3ef@corp.supernews.com>, "Julie Bove"
<jnospambove@bestweb.net> writes:

>
>I don't know a lot about the Atkins' diet except that it is
>fairly high in fat and protein.

Just commenting on this one sentence. Atkins is not high
protein, It is high fat, low carb, regular protein. You
replace the high carbs with fat. The protein remains the
same. A As always YMMV and this is JMO Jeanne Type 2
Diagnosed 05/28/02
189/164/120

[Frank Palm]

Beth <tims@NOSPAMPLEASEiowatelecom.net>

> Over the past couple years we've made some positive
> changes, but I guess not enough. Tim's numbers went up
> badly recently and wouldn't come down to stay. The doc
> added Amaryl to the

I'm sorry to hear that.

> Avandia. Even on the new meds, Tim's BG numbers are still
> off. But he did see his first reading of 89 since becoming
> a diabetic. Unfortunately it went back to almost 200 later
> in the day, food related. The doc said to give the meds a
> while to work.
>
> We are ready to make more drastic changes now. The doc said
> to lose weight.......so.......
>
> How effective is the Atkins' diet? What about that
> cabbage/vegetable soup diet?

What a person has to do to lose weight is eat fewer calories.
What a diabetic has to do is to eat foods enough to give him
the proper nutrition, and still eat fewer calories. I wouldn't
recommend *any* fad diet.

What Tim needs to do is to test after every meal and record
what he ate and what the later BG readings were. What you need
to do is to find more meals which don't spike him, or don't
spike him so badly. We can make suggestions, and we will. But
just because some dish treats my diabetes -- and my taste buds
-- kindly doesn't mean that it will treat his kindly a well.

> How do you guys deal practically with the many smaller
> meals a day issue if you have a very busy job?

Well, it depends on the wok situation. Can he take a baggie of
carrot sticks, and have them for mid-morning snack? Shelled
(probably salt-free) peanuts in another baggie would provide
his mid-afternoon snack.

I *don't* know his work situation, but they must let smokers
out a couple of times a day. Could he go out at some time like
that, walk around the block, and eat his snack as he walks.

Then, you can have dinner just after he gets home, and a late
supper hours later. If he exercises after dinner, he can
afford to take a good deal of food in then.

Take his ideal caloric intake as 100%. Then have 20% for
breakfast, 20% for lunch, 30% for dinner, and 20% for a late
supper. That leaves 10% for snacks, and those can be planned
to fill that slot.

To find his ideal caloric intake, take his height in inches
and square that. Then multiply by 0.44. This is only a very
rough approximation. Your doctor should be able to give you a
better one; and -- of course -- when he gets close to his
ideal weight, you will see what maintains that weight.

> I've heard that moderate to slow walking is more effective
> than jogging on glucose control? What about weight lifting?

The exercise that is best for you is the exercise that you
enjoy. Actually, it is the exercise that you persist in,
whether you enjoy it or not. Does he enjoy dancing with you?
Would he enjoy it more if you were in your living room and
wore fewer clothes? How long would the two of you dance if you
were to remove one article of clothing every ten minutes?

I'm only asking those questions to open up the
possibilities. From here, it looks like you are the one with
the greater concern.

--
Frank Palmer flpalmer@ripco.com

[Dolores]

marysuewilliams@hotmail.com (Mary Sue Williams) wrote in
message
news:<3dec50ef.0210310915.40265dc0@posting.google.com>...
> "Tim" <tims@NOSPAMPLEASEiowatelecom.net> wrote in message
> news:<appqbo$4v1$1@ins22.netins.net>...
> > Over the past couple years we've made some positive
> > changes, but I guess not enough. Tim's numbers went up
> > badly recently and wouldn't come down to stay. The doc
> > added Amaryl to the Avandia. Even on the new meds, Tim's
> > BG numbers are still off. But he did see his first reading
> > of 89 since becoming a diabetic. Unfortunately it went
> > back to almost 200 later in the day, food related. The doc
> > said to give the meds a while to work. We are ready to
> > make more drastic changes now. The doc said to lose
> > weight.......so.......
> >
> > How effective is the Atkins' diet? What about that
> > cabbage/vegetable soup diet?
>
> Check out the low carb group at alt.support.diet.low-carb.
> There are many diabetics using Atkins for control. I'm using
> it and after the first week my bg's came down from 200's to
> a range of 70-130.
> >
> > What if the diet sends you into ketosis? I heard this was
> > bad for diabetics?
>
> Ketosis is a body process where you burn fat for energy
> rather than carbs. It's perfectly natural and occurs every
> night during sleep.
> >
> > How do you guys deal practically with the many smaller
> > meals a day issue if you have a very busy job?
>
> How often you eat is not as important as what and how much
> you eat. Remember, its carbs that have to be controlled.
> >
> > I've heard that moderate to slow walking is more effective
> > than jogging on glucose control? What about weight
> > lifting?
>
> Exercises that typically involve cardiovascular workouts can
> raise blood sugar to cope with the demands of the stress of
> the workout. Resistance exercise (weight lifting) and
> non-stressful exercise (walking) burn glucose and lower
> blood sugar.
> >
> > Thanks in advance, Beth
>
> Hope this helps.

If the body is in ketosis every night when we sleep, does that
mean that when we wake up in the morning, our urine would turn
those test strips purple?

Dolores

[Tim]

Thank you Frank,

> What a person has to do to lose weight is eat fewer
> calories. What a diabetic has to do is to eat foods enough
> to give him the proper nutrition, and still eat fewer
> calories.
<snipped the rest of comments referring to calorie counting>

If simple calorie counting were the case, I would not have
asked for other advice. I know many people, including myself,
who have done the calorie counting and still gained weight. I
have eaten as few as 1000 calories a day for a great length of
time, been hungry and miserable, and still not lost any
weight.........Oh, but I digress......

I asked specifically about Adkins because it was reccommended
to us as safe for diabetics to use to lose weight AND control
blood glucose levels.

> Can he take a baggie of carrot sticks, and have them for
> mid-morning snack? Shelled (probably salt-free) peanuts in
> another baggie would provide his mid-afternoon snack.
>
> I *don't* know his work situation, but they must let
> smokers out a couple of times a day. Could he go out at
> some time like that, walk around the block, and eat his
> snack as he walks.

Thank you. Tim is a work-aholic and currently does not take
breaks, except lunch. His rebellious side would probably enjoy
taking a "fresh-air" break when the smokers shirk work to
pollute themselves. <grin> (My sarcastic joke, not his.)

> The exercise that is best for you is the exercise that you
> enjoy. Actually, it is the exercise that you persist in,
> whether you enjoy it or not. Does he enjoy dancing with you?
> Would he enjoy it more if you were in your living room and
> wore fewer clothes? How long would the two of you dance if
> you were to remove one article of clothing every ten
> minutes?

Oh my!!!!! So forward. And yet........that could be quite
romantic in the right setting......

> I'm only asking those questions to open up the
> possibilities. From here, it looks like you are the one with
> the greater concern.
> --
> Frank Palmer

Tim is very concerned. You just don't see him in this forum.

Beth

[Tim]

Hello Mary Sue,

> > Check out the low carb group at alt.support.diet.low-carb.
> > There are many diabetics using Atkins for control. I'm
> > using it and after the first week my bg's came down from
> > 200's to a range of 70-130.

Thank you for the group link. I am now lurking in that
group. We decided to try a low-carb diet, but not exactly
the induction diet of Adkins fame. (I'm still reading his
long-winded book.) We are avoiding all bread, potatoes,
pasta, fruits and corn. Basically our diet is mostly meat
and vegetables now. Tim refuses to give up his morning
glass of milk.

So far Tim is doing good on the diet. His BG has come back
down averaging around 140. This is week 1, so we will see how
next week goes. Tim has found that his BG drops low in the
mid-afternoon so he must eat a little something then. He hates
having to take his monitor to work to check his BG, but has
found that it is necessary.

> > Exercises that typically involve cardiovascular workouts
> > can raise blood sugar to cope with the demands of the
> > stress of the workout. Resistance exercise (weight
> > lifting) and non-stressful exercise (walking) burn glucose
> > and lower blood sugar.

Thanks again. This is what I had heard that I was asking
about. Too many years in the military told him that running
was better. Tim likes walking and weight lifting.

[Ed Seedhou]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 17:08:24 -0600, "Tim"
<tims@NOSPAMPLEASEiowatelecom.net> wrote:

>> What a person has to do to lose weight is eat fewer
>> calories.

>If simple calorie counting were the case, I would not have
>asked for other advice. I know many people, including myself,
>who have done the calorie counting and still gained weight. I
>have eaten as few as 1000 calories a day for a great length
>of time, been hungry and miserable, and still not lost any
>weight.........Oh, but I digress......

If you only restrict calories and do nothing else your body
responds to a starvation situation by becoming more efficient
in its use of those calories. If you truly are restricting
calories you cannot, by the laws of physics, gain weight
unless your body retains fluid.

The key is to add in exercise. When the body is active the
"starvation response" can't kick in, and you can eat a bit
more while still losing weight. That is if you burn 100 extra
calories a day by exercise you can eat an extra hundred
calories without affecting your weight one way or the other.

>I asked specifically about Adkins because it was reccommended
>to us as safe for diabetics to use to lose weight AND control
>blood glucose levels.

Atkins diet is a calory restrictive diet. It is also
nutritionally unbalanced, though since diabetics have a
disorder of carbohydrate metabolism it is arguable that such
an unbalanced diet is justified. If you have kidney disease a
diet low in protein, which is also therefore an "unbalanced"
diet is indicated, for example.

I prefer to not restrict my carbohydrate consumption but
instead to change the kinds of carbohydrates I eat. All
carbohydrates are *not* the same and some can be eaten more
safely by diabetics than others can, notably those with low
"glycemic indexes". These have the advantage of helping one to
feel full while still allowing you to restrict calories. Also
the foods that contain such carbohydrates also provide other
nutrients that are not as available from the foods that
provide mostly fat and protein. Such a diet provides more
variety and is therefore, I hope, more sustainable.

But I believe it is generally accepted no purely dietary
approach will work all that well on its own without exercise
as part of the mix. Even a short, brisk 10 minute walk instead
of a coffee twice a day will help quite a lot. Especially if
you supplement it with a 20 to 30 minute walk after supper.

Ed Seedhouse

"I'm on my second cup of coffee
and I still can't face the day"