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Nick
Sun, Oct-27-02, 20:57
Thesse types of studies are not suited to nutritional issues.
If we leave aside the major problems of the reporting
involved in epidemiological studies, as well as how the
public takes advice, which may be good on some level but not
to an extreme (such as drinking a shot of flax oil a day),
there are still significant issues that are often ignored
(and I'm certainly not the first person to point this out). I
explain it to my students as follows: if there is a disease
that is related to a "bug," for example, cholera, then we can
look at it under a microscope, give it to healthy test
animals, see what happens when kill off the bug, etc.
Physiological mechanisms are clear, for example, if toxins
are produced by a bacterium that do not allow the body to
function properly, if the bacterium isn't killed off, the
body will eventually be unable to perform necessary
functions, and the person or animal will die. Under such
circumstances, epidemiology works very well, and that's how
it came into being - attempting to try to control infectious
diseases. However, telling people that nuts are "good"
prompts many questions. What food(s) was not eaten by the nut
eaters that the non-nut eaters were eating? What if I hate or
have sensitivities to nuts? If we knew it was the type of
vitamin E or magnesium in the nuts, we could just supplement
that, or eat a different source of it. Why not suggest that
Americans need vitamin E to counteract the free radical
damage done by the unsaturated fats? Are there special
interest involved (how would Archer Daniels Midland like to
hear that all the soybeans they are distributing is extremely
unhealthy except in small amounts, and in forms that
Americans won't eat?). Are nuts good for everyone, or are
there some people who should only eat very small amounts?
Without knowing anything about the physiology involved,
epidemiologists can do a lot more harm than good, and in this
case, the harm might be from people hearing about the study,
then eating a lot of peanuts (which are not nuts) or walnuts,
both of which are potentially big trouble, and those who
understand human physiology know this, but the
epidemiologists can say, "well, we saw an association, and
that's all we said," thereby protecting themselves from being
blamed at some point for advice that may be bad (like all the
non-physiological attacks on saturated fats) or misread
(people eating peanuts and walnuts).

Marion Nestle remarked that "Americans die from eating too
much food and the wrong kinds of it. The food industry,
blinded to any concerns beyond short-term profits, preys on
its customers with advertising, corrupts the political
process, and manipulates the very nature of what people desire
to eat." The scientific process has also been corrupted, and
though the examples of bogus epidemiological studies are
endless, you might want to read "Heart Failure," "Tainted
Truth," or "The Cholesterol Conspiracy," towards this end.

Interestingly, Nestle helped launch a project (in 1988) by the
U.S. Surgeon General's Office to write a definitive report on
the hazards of fat consumption (and, apparently, still sees
saturated fat as a food to be avoided). Yet eleven years
later, this report was "killed," with no explanation except
that the resources needed to complete it were too great, or as
Nestle claims, the subject matter "was too complicated."
Epidemiology simply cannot work, on its own, in the field of
nutrition. Without understanding important physiological
concepts, you can "tweak" a study to show just about anything,
for example, using frozen, homogenized eggs to show that they
increase coronary heart disease risk (which they do because
the cholesterol gets oxidized in the processing), when in
reality, nobody eats an egg that has been homogenized. But all
the public hears is that buying egg beaters is the "safer"
alternative - and yet all the egg beaters eaters are dropping
dead just as fast as the junk food eaters.

This is not the case with epidemiological studies in the
nutritional context. For example, if we give one group of
people a lot of steak to eat, and another group a lot of fish
to eat, then notice that the steak-eaters have a higher
incidence of heart disease, we might be told that it is
because of saturated fat, when the arachidonic acid and the
oxidized cholesterol in steak are more likely to be the
problem, when considered in a physiological context. The fish
eaters, like Eskimos, will have their blood vessels
disintegrate after so many years on such a diet (assuming a
great deal of fish high in omega 3s are consumed, of course),
but if the epidemiological studies are only for a few years,
only "good" results will be seen (though a few people might
get strokes from such a diet in that time frame - they are the
"canaries in the coal mine"). There is no epidemiological
study that can demonstrate that saturated fat is a "cause" of
heart disease because just giving people saturated fatty acids
to eat, and nothing else, is obviously not healthy because
they do not supply complete nutrition (vitamins, protein, etc.
are required). Instead, foods are given to people that contain
saturated fatty acids, but also all kinds of other things, and
the problem is that too many "nutritional scientists" take for
granted that certain foods are "good" while others are "bad"
and never question such basic assumptions. To me, this is
anti-scientific, and cannot be accepted without being looked
at very carefully. It amazes me how so many of these people
who love their epidemiological studies discount the best
epidemiological evidence in support of at least unrefined
coconut oil as a great saturated fat for humans, since
millions have used it over the course of thousands of years
with almost not heart disease!

Here is an example of "scientists" who fail to question basic
assumptions (and this is not even a loose epidemiological
study, but instead what I call a "test-tube magic" study,
demonstrating how much room there is to "fudge" the
physiological reality):

"Diets high in saturated fatty acids have been implicated in
the development of coronary artery disease." and then the
authors say ".we confirm the toxicity of palmitate [one of
many different kinds of SFAs] in other cell types.
Specifically. cell death in human umbilical vein endothelial
cells. a human hepatic cell line. and a macrophage cell line.
Cell death in these lines is specific for the saturated fatty
acid palmitate and does not occur with the mono-unsaturated
fatty acid oleate." What the authors do not mention is that
apoptosis (cell death) can be very beneficial, as damaged
cells can cause major health problems and need to be
eliminated - conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), which is produced
in large amounts by animals such as cows, goats, and sheep
that are free-range fed (the "natural" way), has apoptic
effects on fat cells, which is why it is being sold as a
weight-loss supplement in pill form (I suggest you consume
high-quality, non-homogenized dairy products instead of taking
pills for this effect, if desired). Just as is the case with
(non-oxidized) cholesterol, there is nothing wrong with
apoptosis occurring in your body (in fact, it must occur if
you want to continue to live), provided that it is happening
under the right circumstances. What happens in a test tube
under these kinds of conditions is not human physiology
("Cellular Death in Response to Fatty Acid" by S. Schiller and
J. Schaffer - 2001). Human nutritional science is more like a
detective story. There are pieces to the overall puzzle that
need to be put together correctly. You can force together
pieces that don't fit in various ways, but the picture you get
will look horrible, and that's exactly what the American scene
looks like, in the context of "diseases" related to
nutritional fallacies.

In the case of human nutrition, you had better begin to think
outside the box, or you will soon find yourself in one made of
pine! At least hear people like Ray Peat out. His writing is
the modern, nutritional version of Socrates' notion of the
bite of the gadfly. We all like to feel secure in the notion
that by avoiding saturated fat, or whatever, we will be
healthy, but if we admit that the evidence actually points in
the opposite direction (when we take into account the diets of
"traditional" cultures and the problems with nutritional
epidemiological studies) then we feel uncomfortable. I'm the
kind of person who has to find out for himself what is really
going on under such circumstances, but I guess most people
just want to be the proverbial ostrich, sticking its head in
the ground.

Larry Hoov
Mon, Oct-28-02, 14:00
If you have written a book, Nick, I hope you had a really
good editor.

Lar

Sky-Hi
Mon, Oct-28-02, 20:58
Any particular food, like nuts or dairy will be good for some
people and not so good, or maybe even bad, for others. People
are not all the same, even within families. Given that some
foods are recommended as being healthy, those who like those
foods may want to eat them more often.

As long as you assume that everyone is like you, then you're
understanding of nutrition will be wrong.

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:16:20 GMT, "nick" <spam@spam.net>
wrote:

>Thesse types of studies are not suited to nutritional issues.
>If we leave aside the major problems of the reporting
>involved in epidemiological studies, as well as how the
>public takes advice, which may be good on some level but not
>to an extreme (such as drinking a shot of flax oil a day),
>there are still significant issues that are often ignored
>(and I'm certainly not the first person to point this out). I
>explain it to my students as follows: if there is a disease
>that is related to a "bug," for example, cholera, then we can
>look at it under a microscope, give it to healthy test
>animals, see what happens when kill off the bug, etc.
>Physiological mechanisms are clear, for example, if toxins
>are produced by a bacterium that do not allow the body to
>function properly, if the bacterium isn't killed off, the
>body will eventually be unable to perform necessary
>functions, and the person or animal will die. Under such
>circumstances, epidemiology works very well, and that's how
>it came into being - attempting to try to control infectious
>diseases. However, telling people that nuts are "good"
>prompts many questions. What food(s) was not eaten by the nut
>eaters that the non-nut eaters were eating? What if I hate or
>have sensitivities to nuts? If we knew it was the type of
>vitamin E or magnesium in the nuts, we could just supplement
>that, or eat a different source of it. Why not suggest that
>Americans need vitamin E to counteract the free radical
>damage done by the unsaturated fats? Are there special
>interest involved (how would Archer Daniels Midland like to
>hear that all the soybeans they are distributing is extremely
>unhealthy except in small amounts, and in forms that
>Americans won't eat?). Are nuts good for everyone, or are
>there some people who should only eat very small amounts?
>Without knowing anything about the physiology involved,
>epidemiologists can do a lot more harm than good, and in this
>case, the harm might be from people hearing about the study,
>then eating a lot of peanuts (which are not nuts) or walnuts,
>both of which are potentially big trouble, and those who
>understand human physiology know this, but the
>epidemiologists can say, "well, we saw an association, and
>that's all we said," thereby protecting themselves from being
>blamed at some point for advice that may be bad (like all the
>non-physiological attacks on saturated fats) or misread
>(people eating peanuts and walnuts).
>
>Marion Nestle remarked that "Americans die from eating too
>much food and the wrong kinds of it. The food industry,
>blinded to any concerns beyond short-term profits, preys on
>its customers with advertising, corrupts the political
>process, and manipulates the very nature of what people
>desire to eat." The scientific process has also been
>corrupted, and though the examples of bogus epidemiological
>studies are endless, you might want to read "Heart Failure,"
>"Tainted Truth," or "The Cholesterol Conspiracy," towards
>this end.
>
>Interestingly, Nestle helped launch a project (in 1988) by
>the U.S. Surgeon General's Office to write a definitive
>report on the hazards of fat consumption (and, apparently,
>still sees saturated fat as a food to be avoided). Yet eleven
>years later, this report was "killed," with no explanation
>except that the resources needed to complete it were too
>great, or as Nestle claims, the subject matter "was too
>complicated." Epidemiology simply cannot work, on its own, in
>the field of nutrition. Without understanding important
>physiological concepts, you can "tweak" a study to show just
>about anything, for example, using frozen, homogenized eggs
>to show that they increase coronary heart disease risk (which
>they do because the cholesterol gets oxidized in the
>processing), when in reality, nobody eats an egg that has
>been homogenized. But all the public hears is that buying egg
>beaters is the "safer" alternative - and yet all the egg
>beaters eaters are dropping dead just as fast as the junk
>food eaters.
>
>This is not the case with epidemiological studies in the
>nutritional context. For example, if we give one group of
>people a lot of steak to eat, and another group a lot of fish
>to eat, then notice that the steak-eaters have a higher
>incidence of heart disease, we might be told that it is
>because of saturated fat, when the arachidonic acid and the
>oxidized cholesterol in steak are more likely to be the
>problem, when considered in a physiological context. The fish
>eaters, like Eskimos, will have their blood vessels
>disintegrate after so many years on such a diet (assuming a
>great deal of fish high in omega 3s are consumed, of course),
>but if the epidemiological studies are only for a few years,
>only "good" results will be seen (though a few people might
>get strokes from such a diet in that time frame - they are
>the "canaries in the coal mine"). There is no epidemiological
>study that can demonstrate that saturated fat is a "cause" of
>heart disease because just giving people saturated fatty
>acids to eat, and nothing else, is obviously not healthy
>because they do not supply complete nutrition (vitamins,
>protein, etc. are required). Instead, foods are given to
>people that contain saturated fatty acids, but also all kinds
>of other things, and the problem is that too many
>"nutritional scientists" take for granted that certain foods
>are "good" while others are "bad" and never question such
>basic assumptions. To me, this is anti-scientific, and cannot
>be accepted without being looked at very carefully. It amazes
>me how so many of these people who love their epidemiological
>studies discount the best epidemiological evidence in support
>of at least unrefined coconut oil as a great saturated fat
>for humans, since millions have used it over the course of
>thousands of years with almost not heart disease!
>
>Here is an example of "scientists" who fail to question basic
>assumptions (and this is not even a loose epidemiological
>study, but instead what I call a "test-tube magic" study,
>demonstrating how much room there is to "fudge" the
>physiological reality):
>
>"Diets high in saturated fatty acids have been implicated in
>the development of coronary artery disease." and then the
>authors say ".we confirm the toxicity of palmitate [one of
>many different kinds of SFAs] in other cell types.
>Specifically. cell death in human umbilical vein endothelial
>cells. a human hepatic cell line. and a macrophage cell line.
>Cell death in these lines is specific for the saturated fatty
>acid palmitate and does not occur with the mono-unsaturated
>fatty acid oleate." What the authors do not mention is that
>apoptosis (cell death) can be very beneficial, as damaged
>cells can cause major health problems and need to be
>eliminated - conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), which is
>produced in large amounts by animals such as cows, goats, and
>sheep that are free-range fed (the "natural" way), has
>apoptic effects on fat cells, which is why it is being sold
>as a weight-loss supplement in pill form (I suggest you
>consume high-quality, non-homogenized dairy products instead
>of taking pills for this effect, if desired). Just as is the
>case with (non-oxidized) cholesterol, there is nothing wrong
>with apoptosis occurring in your body (in fact, it must occur
>if you want to continue to live), provided that it is
>happening under the right circumstances. What happens in a
>test tube under these kinds of conditions is not human
>physiology ("Cellular Death in Response to Fatty Acid" by S.
>Schiller and J. Schaffer - 2001). Human nutritional science
>is more like a detective story. There are pieces to the
>overall puzzle that need to be put together correctly. You
>can force together pieces that don't fit in various ways, but
>the picture you get will look horrible, and that's exactly
>what the American scene looks like, in the context of
>"diseases" related to nutritional fallacies.
>
>In the case of human nutrition, you had better begin to think
>outside the box, or you will soon find yourself in one made
>of pine! At least hear people like Ray Peat out. His writing
>is the modern, nutritional version of Socrates' notion of the
>bite of the gadfly. We all like to feel secure in the notion
>that by avoiding saturated fat, or whatever, we will be
>healthy, but if we admit that the evidence actually points in
>the opposite direction (when we take into account the diets
>of "traditional" cultures and the problems with nutritional
>epidemiological studies) then we feel uncomfortable. I'm the
>kind of person who has to find out for himself what is really
>going on under such circumstances, but I guess most people
>just want to be the proverbial ostrich, sticking its head in
>the ground.

Mad McFarq
Sat, Nov-23-02, 06:57
Well said. What epidemiology always forgets is the
environmental intangibles. The overwhelming factor in multiple
sclerosis development is lack of vitamin D3. It is likely the
same problem occurs in many other degenerative diseases.
Okinawans live close to the equator, Inuits and fish eaters
have a high dietary intake of vitamin D3. Indoor workers have
little UV exposure hence low vitamin D3. Probably a far
greater variable than almost any dietary factor.

"nick" <spam@spam.net> wrote in message
news:UAZu9.9190$mt.6731@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> Thesse types of studies are not suited to nutritional
> issues. If we leave aside the major problems of the
> reporting involved in epidemiological studies, as well as
> how the public takes advice, which may be good on some level
> but not to an extreme (such as drinking a shot of flax oil a
> day), there are still significant issues that are often
> ignored (and I'm
certainly
> not the first person to point this out). I explain it to my
> students as follows: if there is a disease that is related
> to a "bug," for example, cholera, then we can look at it
> under a microscope, give it to healthy
test
> animals, see what happens when kill off the bug, etc.
> Physiological mechanisms are clear, for example, if toxins
> are produced by a bacterium that do not allow the body to
> function properly, if the bacterium isn't killed off, the
> body will eventually be unable to perform necessary
> functions, and the person or animal will die. Under such
> circumstances, epidemiology works very well, and that's how
> it came into being -
attempting
> to try to control infectious diseases. However, telling
> people that nuts are "good" prompts many questions. What
> food(s) was not eaten by the nut eaters that the non-nut
> eaters were eating? What if I hate or have sensitivities to
> nuts? If we knew it was the type of vitamin E or
magnesium
> in the nuts, we could just supplement that, or eat a
> different source of
it.
> Why not suggest that Americans need vitamin E to counteract
> the free
radical
> damage done by the unsaturated fats? Are there special
> interest involved (how would Archer Daniels Midland like
> to hear that all the soybeans they are distributing is
> extremely unhealthy except in small amounts, and in
> forms that Americans won't eat?). Are nuts good for
> everyone, or are
there
> some people who should only eat very small amounts? Without
> knowing anything about the physiology involved,
> epidemiologists can do a lot more harm than good, and in
> this case, the harm might be from people hearing about the
> study, then eating a lot of peanuts (which are not nuts) or
> walnuts, both of which are potentially big trouble, and
> those who
understand
> human physiology know this, but the epidemiologists can say,
> "well, we saw an association, and that's all we said,"
> thereby protecting themselves
from
> being blamed at some point for advice that may be bad (like
> all the non-physiological attacks on saturated fats) or
> misread (people eating peanuts and walnuts).
>
> Marion Nestle remarked that "Americans die from eating too
> much food and
the
> wrong kinds of it. The food industry, blinded to any
> concerns beyond short-term profits, preys on its customers
> with advertising, corrupts the political process, and
> manipulates the very nature of what people desire
to
> eat." The scientific process has also been corrupted, and
> though the examples of bogus epidemiological studies are
> endless, you might want to read "Heart Failure," "Tainted
> Truth," or "The Cholesterol Conspiracy," towards this end.
>
> Interestingly, Nestle helped launch a project (in 1988) by
> the U.S.
Surgeon
> General's Office to write a definitive report on the hazards
> of fat consumption (and, apparently, still sees saturated
> fat as a food to be avoided). Yet eleven years later, this
> report was "killed," with no explanation except that the
> resources needed to complete it were too
great,
> or as Nestle claims, the subject matter "was too
> complicated."
Epidemiology
> simply cannot work, on its own, in the field of nutrition.
> Without understanding important physiological concepts, you
> can "tweak" a study to show just about anything, for
> example, using frozen, homogenized eggs to show that they
> increase coronary heart disease risk (which they do because
> the cholesterol gets oxidized in the processing), when in
> reality, nobody eats an egg that has been homogenized. But
> all the public hears is that buying egg beaters is the
> "safer" alternative - and yet all the egg
beaters
> eaters are dropping dead just as fast as the junk food
> eaters.
>
> This is not the case with epidemiological studies in the
> nutritional context. For example, if we give one group of
> people a lot of steak to
eat,
> and another group a lot of fish to eat, then notice that the
> steak-eaters have a higher incidence of heart disease, we
> might be told that it is because of saturated fat, when the
> arachidonic acid and the oxidized cholesterol in steak are
> more likely to be the problem, when considered in
a
> physiological context. The fish eaters, like Eskimos, will
> have their
blood
> vessels disintegrate after so many years on such a diet
> (assuming a great deal of fish high in omega 3s are
> consumed, of course), but if the epidemiological studies
> are only for a few years, only "good" results will be
> seen (though a few people might get strokes from such a
> diet in that
time
> frame - they are the "canaries in the coal mine"). There is
> no epidemiological study that can demonstrate that saturated
> fat is a "cause" of heart disease because just giving people
> saturated fatty acids to eat, and nothing else, is obviously
> not healthy because they do not supply complete nutrition
> (vitamins, protein, etc. are required). Instead, foods are
> given to people that contain saturated fatty acids, but also
> all kinds of other things, and the problem is that too many
> "nutritional scientists" take for granted that certain foods
> are "good" while others are "bad" and never question such
> basic assumptions. To me, this is anti-scientific,
and
> cannot be accepted without being looked at very carefully.
> It amazes me
how
> so many of these people who love their epidemiological
> studies discount
the
> best epidemiological evidence in support of at least
> unrefined coconut oil as a great saturated fat for humans,
> since millions have used it over the course of thousands of
> years with almost not heart disease!
>
> Here is an example of "scientists" who fail to question
> basic assumptions (and this is not even a loose
> epidemiological study, but instead what I
call
> a "test-tube magic" study, demonstrating how much room there
> is to "fudge" the physiological reality):
>
> "Diets high in saturated fatty acids have been
> implicated in the
development
> of coronary artery disease." and then the authors say ".we
> confirm the toxicity of palmitate [one of many different
> kinds of SFAs] in other cell types. Specifically. cell death
> in human umbilical vein endothelial cells.
a
> human hepatic cell line. and a macrophage cell line. Cell
> death in these lines is specific for the saturated fatty
> acid palmitate and does not
occur
> with the mono-unsaturated fatty acid oleate." What the
> authors do not mention is that apoptosis (cell death) can be
> very beneficial, as damaged cells can cause major health
> problems and need to be eliminated -
conjugated
> linoleic acid (CLA), which is produced in large amounts by
> animals such as cows, goats, and sheep that are free-range
> fed (the "natural" way), has apoptic effects on fat cells,
> which is why it is being sold as a
weight-loss
> supplement in pill form (I suggest you consume high-quality,
non-homogenized
> dairy products instead of taking pills for this effect, if
> desired). Just as is the case with (non-oxidized)
> cholesterol, there is nothing wrong
with
> apoptosis occurring in your body (in fact, it must occur if
> you want to continue to live), provided that it is happening
> under the right circumstances. What happens in a test tube
> under these kinds of
conditions
> is not human physiology ("Cellular Death in Response to
> Fatty Acid" by S. Schiller and J. Schaffer - 2001). Human
> nutritional science is more like
a
> detective story. There are pieces to the overall puzzle that
> need to be
put
> together correctly. You can force together pieces that
> don't fit in
various
> ways, but the picture you get will look horrible, and that's
> exactly what the American scene looks like, in the context
> of "diseases" related to nutritional fallacies.
>
> In the case of human nutrition, you had better begin to
> think outside the box, or you will soon find yourself in one
> made of pine! At least hear people like Ray Peat out. His
> writing is the modern, nutritional version
of
> Socrates' notion of the bite of the gadfly. We all like to
> feel secure in the notion that by avoiding saturated fat, or
> whatever, we will be
healthy,
> but if we admit that the evidence actually points in the
> opposite
direction
> (when we take into account the diets of "traditional"
> cultures and the problems with nutritional epidemiological
> studies) then we feel uncomfortable. I'm the kind of person
> who has to find out for himself
what
> is really going on under such circumstances, but I guess
> most people just want to be the proverbial ostrich, sticking
> its head in the ground.
>