Bad liver and lowcarbing.......

[DaveR]

First a quick history....

Was heavy drinker for about 11 years. Started low carb 3 yrs ago. Did great, went from 250 to 215. Toward the end, started having chest pains. Doc said stress. Continued lowcarb, chest pains never went away. Year later took self to Emerg. room for chest pains, and what was later found to be panic attacks. Due to past drinking history, thought maybe was having liver problems, and this is what brought on panic attacks.

Went to regular doc and told him of my concerns. Major blood work done, all the ususal liver tests, and all came back fine. Doc put me on Paxil.

Felt pretty good knowing I wasn't dying. But, went off low carb, and with the Paxil, I gained major weight! Up to 270. Follow up a year later, all tests still okay. But, always tired, especially when lowcarbing. Weak too. I'm 36 yrs old.

Now, back on lowcarbing for 3 months, no longer drink, and have done so only once in the past 6 months, 4 mo. ago. Have lost 35 lbs since starting back up.

Have nagging ache under right ribs, and when I eat really lowcarb as in induction levels, ache more constant and itching all over body starts and lasts for days. Same thing happened on the rare occasion I did drink alcohol, was told maybe alcohol alergy, so I quit. However, doc put me on viagra as well, and now get same symptoms when I take even that! That didn't happen until recently.

Muscle aches, weakness, especially when using hands and arms at or above shoulder level, itching, minor joint aches.
I can't stand feeling like this at my age.

My next annual physical is in 2 months. How concerned should I be continuing to lowcarb here? I NEED to lose this weight, and NOTHING I've tried before works. If need be, once I lose the weight, I can go to low fat and exercise to keep it off, but that doesn't work for taking it off for me.

I know lowcarbing doesn't cause liver disease or liver damage as many claimed in the past, but if the liver is already compramised, can it further the damage with the liver attempting to process such a large amount of proteins?

Any ideas appreciated. I won't go back to the doc until my annual, as I don't want to continue to be told, after clean tests, all I'm suffering from is panic attacks.

Thanks!

[agonycat]

First let me congratulate you on your decision to stop drinking. I did that January 2001 and haven't looked back once. I am a recovering alcoholic. :)

Second, it is perfectly normal during the first two weeks of induction to feel fatigued, weak, muscle soreness, feeling like you are going to fall flat on your face. Been there done that.

Are you taking any kind of supplements and vitamins? You didn't say. Taking magnesium, potassium and calicium will help with the muscle fatigue and the tired feelings.

As for the rash, are you eating something new that you haven't before? Could it be the vitamins/supplements if you are taking them? Sometimes the binders they put in those can cause a reaction. I know I personally can not take some brands of vitamins because of the binders. They make me belch all day and the feeling of nausia. The rash sounds like a food allergy or possible medication reaction.

[DaveR]

Thanks for the quick response. I'm beginning to get very worried about this again....

I'm beyond induction, been lowcarbing on and off for 3 years, and am steady on this time for 3 months.

The itching isn't a rash, no signs of rash. Feels almost tickle like on the feet, and on cheeks, nose, and chin, it feels like I've got little tiny fine hairs being blown by the wind. Nerve racking.

I'm taking vitamins, Centrum "silver" without iron, two in the morning, and Cal 333, Mag 133, Zinc 5mg, two in the morning as well.

I'm pretty certain of what I've got by the symptoms, and how they usually come on. I don't know how to convince my doc about that, since a definitive liver test (biopsy) will not be performed with normal liver function tests. But, as I've researched, liver disfunction can often times not be determined by liver "function" tests. He was so certain of my liver health, he wanted to put me on cholesterol lowering drugs, which is a big "no-no" if there are liver problems. I'm not as certain of my health as he is, obviously, and don't want to take chances.

I guess what I'm wondering, if I do have liver problems, can the lowcarbing make things worse, or inhibit liver regeneration, however much of that there may be? Or has lowcarbing been shown to be okay with persons with liver disfunction?

I know people with kidney failure or problems shouldn't locarb, and I have no indications of kidney disfunction, so I'm not worried about that at least.

[Karen]

The itching isn't a rash, no signs of rash. Feels almost tickle like on the feet, and on cheeks, nose, and chin, it feels like I've got little tiny fine hairs being blown by the wind. Nerve racking.

In my early days of low-carbing, a loss of poundage was always accompanied by an odd sensation, sort of like a tingling or electricity all over my body, but I felt it most in my extremities. I lost fat in large chunks initially, that would generally happen on a weekly basis. It was also accompanied by a surge of energy.

Could this be it?

Karen

[Deb]

have you considered researching a liver detox and cleansing regimen and then continuing on with LC?

I have no significant liver problems but i do believe that the liver can be overloaded and needs to be cleaned out and supported by certain herbs. This is not medical advice, just another avenue you might be willing to try before the drastic step of a biopsy.

Best wishes, whatever you decide to do.

Deb

[DaveR]

In my early days of low-carbing, a loss of poundage was always accompanied by an odd sensation, sort of like a tingling or electricity all over my body, but I felt it most in my extremities. I lost fat in large chunks initially, that would generally happen on a weekly basis. It was also accompanied by a surge of energy.

You could be on to something there. When I experienced symptoms in the past, I often wondered if it could be related to fatty liver, and the liver's reduced ability to work properly. I was quite heavy at 270 lbs.

It seems like lately, now that I think about it, the symptoms have come along approximatley the same time a woosh has. Coincidence? Maybe I'll have to start keeping a log. I've wondered if maybe my liver isn't real happy, aside from the earlier abuse, about giving up the fat it has become so accustomed to the last 5 or so years.

Thanks, that gives me some hope I'm not "killing" my possibly damaged liver with excess protein......

[sheilaraye]

HI!

I have a question....what is your blood pressure like?
Mine at one time (ON ATKIN'S) was extremely low, and I
had that very irritating pins and needles feeling all the
time. I have also heard that those same symptoms can
occur if the blood pressure is high. Just wondering........

[DaveR]

Blood pressure, who knows? Everytime I've went to the doc, he said it was okay, but don't remember if I've been to the doc while actually low carbing.

I've seen some mention on the boards of a connection between depression and lowcarb? I would say I've experienced this somewhat. Not because I can't have other foods, I rarely miss them, other than the simplicity of throwing something in the microwave and availability.

I have noticed the panic attacks seem to come on more often when lowcarbing. I can control them now because I know what they are, but maybe there is more to this than I thought.

At least I've gotten enough info that other people have experinced similar things while lowcarbing, so that should get me through the next couple months til my doctors appointment without going crazy!

[vivi621]

congrats on you have stopped drinking..

I suffered from Panic Attachs for years..

you are describing.. what I felt for years.. little tingle sensations in certain areas of the body.. mine were felt where ever my dear head told it to go, sometimes the pain would last in the same spot continously with every attach.. I even went as far as stabbing pain..

I thought the doctors and the ER people were nuts I have a medical condition here and there is no way that I am not sick..

Well Guess what I am as healthy as could be.. I used to get numb all on the right side of my body, yes numb, you could hit me and I would not feel a thing.. talk about stress, that was stress..

I am not saying that you are not feeling what you are feeling cause you are.. take the advise from all, cause it is good advice, it can't hurt you ....but do me a favor..

Lose whatever it is in your life that is hurting you.. Even if it is a wife.. LOSE it or go for counceling .. What ever is stressing you out get RID of it... Something in your life is stressing you out and you need to LOSE WHAT EVER IT IS....


I want to say there are a lot of books out there that can help you, I hope you use them.. here are some suggestions, Living with Anxiety, Don't Sweat The Small Stuff, It's All Small Stuff.. Listening to Prozac , Should you leave. and last but not least the BIBLE..

Sorry ...Dave I forgot to mention I DO NOT SUFFER FROM THEM ANY LONGER.. I am not on medication any longer.. I am fine with it, all of it..

I really hope this helps you
The Warmest Wishes
Vivian :wave: :roll:

[DaveR]

Vivian,

Thanks so much for the informative and thoughtful reply.

I can only hope what you've gone through is exactly what's happening to me. Not that panic attacks are anything to sneeze at! I've spent the last 3 years of my life living the hell of panic attacks, and at least now I can control them somewhat, because at least some of the symptoms I know are from the attacks.

I don't have anything I can lose however, as it is the fear of liver disease that is generating all this anxiety. Symptom hits, more anxiety, which I guess could be leading to more symptoms. Vicious cycle, if that is in fact all it is.

I guess the only way to get rid of that is to have a definitive test done, a biopsy. That is the only thing I can do I guess to rid myself of this worry. Unfortunately there is no other test to accurately determine actual liver health.

Hopefully I can convince the doc of this when I go in to see him in December. It's a huge step, and not one to be taken lightly. If the results aren't good, so be it, hiding from it won't change anything. If I don't do it, I'll continue living in this hell I'm in, and that's not good either.

Thanks again. I've got a little more "in my own mind" ammo to digest now and carry me through til I meet with the doc.

[4got]

Dave,

I have those pains as you discribe, I had high liver enzymes and had a liver biopsy last winter. I have fatty liver. The GI doc says nothing can be done for that except lose weight. When I first started atkins, I didn't think I would be able to stay on it because of the pain in my side and the nausea. Both have subsided. I don't lose weight like I would like to, but I'm sticking to it because now I feel much better. I've also dealt with the anxiety attacks. I know what you are feeling there. The liver biopsy is nothing to sneeze at so I wouldn't recommend it unless they find some reason to do one. Good luck and relax. Dianne

[DaveR]

Well, hopefully I'll find out soon. I couldn't wait any longer and made an appointment with the doc for next Thursday. Should have preliminary blood tests back the following Tues or so.

And, I went back on the Paxil. So far, so good. Pain under ribs not as constant, and itching subsided somewhat. Hopefully this stuff isn't masking real symptoms, but that's the chance I've got to take.

The downside is, since going back on Paxil 2 weeks ago, I haven't lost an ounce, and haven't changed eating habits at all. I thought the weight gain the first time on this stuff was because of the mood alteration and the "I don't care" feeling I got with it, and I ate like a pig. Maybe it has an effect on metabolism, because until I started it again 2 weeks ago, I've been at a constant 3 to 4 lb loss a week for 3 months. Hopefully it's just a temporary stall.......

One thing I am anxious about, is to see how my cholesterol has improved since last year, when it was through the roof!

[vivi621]

Dave

My thoughts and prayers are with you, please do not forget to tell us the results I want you to know, you are a very brave man... one in a million


warmest wishes
Vivian

[4got]

I checked the Atkins book and anti depressants do slow weight loss. I guess Paxil fits into that catagory. Dianne

[neeam]

I read this thread with a lot of interest. I had fatty liver. Doc. said
lose weight and don't eat fat/seafood which according to
him will lead to high colestorel. Many a times I tried to lose
weight and did not lose much and gained it back soon.

Then found this low-carbing WOE, read ATKINS,PP,SCHWAZEBEIN etc and found myself what was casuing me over weight or
at least making it hard to lose weight.

LOST 22 in 3 month of LCing.. and last month I checked my liver
enzymes and guess what it came out normal. My colestorel
dropped from 215 to 194 .

I was so pissed off with my doc. that I cancelled my next
appointment and planning to change to good one if any.
What could not see the big picture.. stupid carbo..which
seems to me so obvious...he aint a real doc !!

I'll appreciate if somebody can point out some resources on
"protein/fat and liver issues"

neeam

[DaveR]

Thanks again!

As it turns out, I had a BIG wooosh overnight. Down 4 more pounds! That is very satisfying as last time I was on Paxil, I started to lowcarb, and lost nothing.

If the weight loss is slowed, that's okay, I'm nearing goal anyway. I couldn't handle no loss or any gain though.

I've done a bit of research since my first post, and it appears that "High protein" is aparently only dangerous to those with liver problems if they develope a mental condition "mental encephalopathy". High protein is thought to contribute to this condition. High protein is not a danger otherwise to those with liver problems and is generally not restricted. This comes from several liver specialists, not lowcarb people.

High fat has been mentioned to possibly be a problem. Don't know if that's just more of the same from the "all fat is bad" group, or if there's something to that.

Also read that rapid weight gain can actually make one develope or worsen fatty liver. I guess due to the liver processing more fat than it's ability? They didn't say why, only that rapid loss could cause it. Hmmmm. :confused: At 3 or 4 lbs a week for me, it's been pretty rapid. May have to look at slowing down the loss, which I need to do soon anyway since I've got about 15 lbs to goal.

Hopefully all this info can help someone else avoid this. This all started with me 3 years ago, my first time on Atkins. I had the book, but didn't know much more about it at that time. I had heard and read that lowcarbing was dangerous and could harm the liver. I didn't really believe it, but would be lying if I said the thought wasn't in the back of my mind. With my drinking history, and worrying about liver problems, perhaps this is what caused my tail spin into panic disorder hell! :daze:

[4got]

neeam,
Don't blame your dr. They aren't specialists in every field. My dr. sent me to a GI, doc for the biopsy. I had hi liver enzymes and too much iron in my blood work. They thought I might have hemochromatosis. Thank God I didn't! Fatty liver. When people become obese, it's becaue the body stores fat, and when it stores fat, it also stores it in the liver. My theory is when you are buring fat, you have to be burning it from the liver as well. But! there are other factors to consider too. Like a very slow metabolism, which I apparently have and is the reason I have all this weight and a fatty liver. I'm no expert by any means, but I know what I was trying to do with the low fat diet wasn't working.

I'm hoping when I go back in for blood work, my triglycerides and enzymes are down. We'll see. I go next month.. Dianne :daizy:

[brooky]

Originally posted by neeam

I was so pissed off with my doc. that I cancelled my next
appointment and planning to change to good one if any.
What could not see the big picture.. stupid carbo..which
seems to me so obvious...he aint a real doc !!


While I know how you feel about your doc's qualifications, I still see my non-enlightened GP. He is good at everything else. The problem is the almost nonexistent nutrition training doctors receive in training. That coupled with the line of rubbish the AMA has been feeding MDs for years. I don't even mention to my physican that I'm on Atkins. As long as the readings are going in the right direction, that's all I'm concerned with.

[DaveR]

Well, an update.

Went to the doc, and he was impressed with the weight loss, 46 lbs since my visit last year. Told him I was lowcarbing, and he had nothing bad to say about it, so either he was being polite, or is one of the informed ones......

Doc left message on my ans machine Friday. Said my liver tests all came back fine, AND, (drumroll) said my cholesterol was "excellent" and "far, far better than it was before". I'll post the actual numbers from last year and this year once the new ones come in the mail.

Go in for an ultrasound 2nd December to check for fatty liver. Hopefully that's okay. If the ultrasound comes back clean, I guess I'll have no choice but to accept I have no liver problems.

Pretty good week!

[Kristine]

Dave, <b>congratulations!!!!</b> :Party: That's awesome!! You should whip up a blurb for the "success stories" forum. ;)

WTG!

[4got]

Dave, that's great!! Let me know how the fatty liver thing comes out. Maybe there's hope for me as well. :) Dianne

[tofi]

I am surely glad to hear your latest news. I have heard very positive things about people using 'milk thistle' for liver problems. The husband of a friend had Hepatitis C last year and his liver specialist was amazed at how quickly he recovered after taking milk thistle. It's available from most health food stores.

Last spring, I took a preparation called "liver support" that had a lot of milk thistle in it before my operation. I recovered much faster from the anaesthetic than previously and felt better sooner. Just a suggestion from my experience.

:wave:

[DaveR]

Finally got the numbers back from the doc. After being back on and sticking with Atkins, the numbers are impressive.....

--------------Last year-----------This year

Weight ---------268------------------222

Cholesterol------326------------------158

HDL Chol---------39-------------------46

Trig-------------378-------------------98

Bad news is I got the results back for my liver ultrasound, and it is showing an "enlarged liver", but was otherwise "unremarkable". No mention of fatty infiltration, or any other problems noted. My liver function tests are all fine as well.

So, I've got something bad going on with the liver, and it doesn't look to be fatty liver as the doc suspected. Looks like I'm not crazy after all, and the symptoms were in fact real. So now I have to make an appointment next week with the specialist, and go from there. Hopefully I won't be told to go off Atkins, because I know the weight gain that awaits me if I do......

[bluebayou]

Hi Dave,

I'm Chris. I read your post and you couldn't have described my symptoms better. I've been seeing a good doc and she's been treating me for a very underactive thyroid. The pain from the fatty liver is all but gone, even when I eat a lot of fat. She told me that the underactive thyroid makes cholesteral sky high and subsequently can cause a fatty liver. I used to dring a lot too, but I quit almost 10 years ago and I thought this was something that I had done to myself. I think that the fatty liver is in part due to my former drinking but the symptoms didn't come on until nearly 8 years into sobriety.

The other symptoms, the itchness and weakness, and joint pains, I had them all and a few more. Water retention in ankles, face and hands, depression, moodiness, didn't feel like doing anything.

I'm wondering if you've had thyroid blood work done? It's not as common in men so maybe your doc. should check it out.

Best,

Christiane

[Rick Park]

To Dave:

Very interesting reading your experiences - you've also gotten some good advice.

Have you and your doctor considered possible gall bladder problems? Gallstones, or simple inflammation can cause pain exactly where you stated - under the right side of your rib cage.

Since the gall bladder's role is to help in digestion of fat, this aspect of a LC diet may be a contributing factor since more fat is usually a hallmark of this diet.

From: http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/surgery/clin/gi/gallblad.html

"The majority of patients with symptoms from their gallstones will suffer from chronic cholecystitis. The attacks are caused by a stone becoming stuck either in the junction of the gallbladder and the bile duct or in the duct itself. The muscle in the wall of both gallbladder and duct contracts in an effort to move the stone and this produces intense pain usually felt under the ribs on the right-hand side of the abdomen. "

Protein metabolism would more directly affect the kidneys since that is where a lot of protein byproducts are collected and eliminated from the blood stream.

Hope this helps.

Rick

[SuNNy6]

Dave, got sober myself almost 12 years ago. Right now my liver is okay, and it was a concern of mine too for many years. The best thing you can do for your liver is to not drink and see your doctor.

Second, I am curious what the doctor says about how Paxil and your liver will get along. I would insist on a liver profile to determine whether it is safe for you to be on Paxil or some other medication. Every time the doc wants to prescribe meds for me I insist on blood work first.

I tend to do the Saint John's Wort during the dreary months we have up here. I have had a few panic attacks, but nothing that required medication. The St. John's Wort keeps me pretty in check, but again, if your liver is already compromised, it could be harmful.

Will doing low carb compromise your liver? I don't really know the answer to that and I'd like to know as well. I can't see why it would to be honest with you, but if you aren't taking in enough water, I can see where kidney issues could and would arise. I am very careful to make sure I am drinking lots of water. No caffine here.

Whatever you do decide, don't drink no matter what. Every day above ground is a miracle and an opportunity.

[eurydice]

Hello, I just wanted to share my experience regarding my liver biopsy. It was nothing to worry about. Absolutely nothing to it. You lie down and they give you an injection to freeze the local area and then they do it-it just takes a second-no pain, just a bit of pressure. Then you stay and lie on your side for about 45 minutes, then you go home. I had absolutely no pain, no problems. I've have had far worse experiences than that. I've had funny itchy feelings too. It feels like a bug crawling on me for a second, especially on my lower legs. I have disc problems, so my nerves are probably affected. I have a numbness on the outer right thigh and tingles-I think it's due to my back, putting the nerves out of place. I used to drink too. I have anxiety problems as well. It's tough. You won't know exactly what's going on with your liver until you get a biopsy. My friend had one too and had the same experience as me. Good luck with everything.

[DaveR]

Thanks again.

Since my last post, I saw the GI, who examined me and looked over my ultrasound and blood tests, and said more than likely nothing more than fatty liver. He did not even want to do Hepatitis tests, but I insisted. He said at this point it is highly unlikely I have any problem other than fatty liver, and really could not in good conscience recommend a biopsy.

He advised me to continue to lose weight, and try to put my fear of liver problems out of my mind. He said that if I thought about it, couldn't get past the anxiety over my past abuse of alcohol and fear of damage I've done, and decided a little down the line I needed the biopsy to put my mind at ease, he would make sure I was able to have it done.

So, I'll give it six months and see how I feel.

I have been tested for thyroid, and that came back fine.

I still have the itch, on and off, and the ache in the side is still there, though not as often. About all I can do at this point is get down to my goal weight, keep it there, and don't abuse the acohol again, which I haven't for several years now. I got a hold of that problem. Fear of dying has a way of motivating a person to live healthy. :)

Also mentioned to this doc I was losing weight by "carb restriction" and he also did not advise against it.

[Lila2002]

Dave,

From what I have been reading, the liver has great regeneration capabilities. Keep up the clean living, and your liver should continue to improve.

Lila