Atkins Does lie and here's proof

[infuriator]

http://www.philkaplan.com/thefitnesstruth/atkins1.htm

I'd say Mr. Atkins was caught. Enjoy! :D

[agonycat]

Yeah we have seen this before and Dr Phil is a quack.

:)

[infuriator]

Originally posted by agonycat
Yeah we have seen this before and Dr Phil is a quack.

:) Yeah because he exposes the truth. Scary but true right?

[itsjoyful]

boy, he couldn't be trying to sell his own WOL, now would he?

b

[agonycat]

Infuriator,

I find it interesting that a brand new member to the forum's very first post happens to be of one accusing Dr Atkin's of lying.

You don't happen to know mikerogers do you? Guess it's time to check IPs.

[tamarian]

Originally posted by infuriator
http://www.philkaplan.com/thefitnesstruth/atkins1.htm

I'd say Mr. Atkins was caught. Enjoy! :D

You need read the link carefuly to distinguish between a "research" vs. a sales pitch.

That guy (Phil Kaplan) promises you his solution through a "One-on-One Shopping by Appointment"!! Sure....

And what does this guy sell?

Growth Hormone precursors
DHEA and Testosterone boosters
Chitosan and the Fat Blockers
Metabolife and the Herbal Fat Burners

You will need a lot more when he's done with you, to "recover"...

I would take what he sells with a lot of salt ;)

Wa'il

[doreen T]

It took a whole page for Phil to whine and complain about being jilted by a TV advertising firm in favor of the Eades of Protein Power, and then another page to grumble about a 5 a.m. radio interview where he was disadvantaged by being on the phone, and Atkins was in the studio live. Great .. so Phil carries grudges.

His information on ketones, ketosis, insulin and glucagon is skewed and false. For instance, he states that ketosis will result in a build-up of ammonia in the blood. Huh?? Ammonia is nitrogen-based. Ketones are comprised of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Ain't no nitrogen there??? Mr. Phil needs to re-read his Physiology 101 textbook.

He claims "Ketones are intermediaries in the process of metabolizing fat that are found in abnormal amounts in the blood and urine during periods of metabolic impairment" .. This is false. Ketones are produced in normal, healthy humans all the time. And especially times of rapid growth, since the mitochondria of muscles have an aerobic affinity for ketones and fatty acids. It's worth noting that during pregnancy and during an infant's first year of life, ketones are normally present in the blood in larger amounts than at any other time (unless following a benign or therapeutic ketogenic diet, or during starvation). I don't personally know of any one year olds with kidney stones or malfunctioning livers due to the ketones in their blood.

His "research collection" listed at the end of the article consists mostly of commentaries, letters and editorials by known anti-lowcarb ludites. No studies backing up his claims about kidney stones, osteoporosis, high ammonia levels (ROFLsnort!) or the dangers of ketones. That's because there are none.

Doreen

[tokenyanke]

I'm sure if we knit picked enough in any diet or low carb book, we could find things to "prove" that the author(s) "lie" about something... None of them totally agree on everything. Does that mean they are lying??? I'd say they just have come to different conclusions from the research they have done.

The important question is, DO THEIR PROGRAMS WORK? Heck yes! All of them have worked for millions of people. So, what gives anyone the right to cast stones at Dr. Atkins or the Hellers or any of them? They are promoting what they believe in and should be left alone. If their theories work and people are losing weight and staying healthy, then quit trying to tear them apart!

And if you really want to get answers regarding Atkins, ASK THEM! I've had to email questions before and they do respond... So if you have questions about what information is in other websites, go straight to them and confront them and give them a chance before you jump to conclusions. THIS IS A SUPPORT FORUM, so please respect those of us who use it for the purpose it is designed for and take your complaints elsewhere!
:mad:

Thanks!

[infuriator]

A support forum? How about the truth? It is amusing to see Atkins people being totally obliterated from the truth unless Atkins says it.
The Atkins Diet is unhealthy and I have posted enough to back it up and I have plenty more where that came from.
The formula to weight management is exercise and a diet containing all the energy nutrients and not fad diets.

[sms1]

It appears that we have a TROLL :devil: in our midst, and so we must remember that we should NEVER, EVER feed a troll...(not even low carb foods!) :nono:

Ignore him and he will fade away...

[agonycat]

Originally posted by infuriator

The Atkins Diet is unhealthy and I have posted enough to back it up and I have plenty more where that came from.
The formula to weight management is exercise and a diet containing all the energy nutrients and not fad diets.

Holy cow Atkin's is a fad diet?!?!??!?!?! Wow I didn't think fad's lasted for more than 20 years. Some fad.

Okay you say you have more information about the formula to weight management?

Put up or shut up. Let's see your sources buddy, hope you feel like listing all of them.

Posting an informerical from Dr Phil is hilarious if that is your "proof". I can hardly wait to see the rest of it.

I am calling your bluff. Let's see it.

[committed]

This is a forum for people on LC eating plans, to support their choices. Why are youhere?

[jude]

Low Carb is a fad? Yeah, right....like "they" used to say about Rock & Roll back in the 50's.

judy

[bdeeley]

I'd also point out that the "big lie" we're talking about is a seeming contradiction about kidney stones. Note that what Dr. Atkins denies is that their is evidence that anyone got Kidney Stones BECAUSE of his diet. He agrees that there may be people (many in fact) that get kidney stones while on the diet. This is the classic stastical principle of "correlation without causation". The fact is, a certain % of the population get Kidney stones for a number of reasons unrelated to the Atkins diet. I don't know what that % is, but with the millions of people who are on or have tried Atkins, a large number of these folks will get kidney stones without any statistical signifigance to the diet. Similarly, a large number will have heart attacks, learn they have some form of cancer, have appendicitis and even get injured or die in car accidents for this diet is simply not responsible.

I'd also like to point out that these nasty warnings about ketones are unfounded. Quite simply, the only [safe] way to lose weight is release/use stored body fat. (the only other way is to have it mechanically/surgically removed - yuk!). Ketones are a byproduct of this process regardless of whether you LC, calorie restrict or "burn" your way out through training. A legitimate debate could be formed around whether there is an unsafe level of ketones by using too much stored body fat for energy, but none of these LC critics have scientifically identified what that safe/unsafe level is. What's more, they all seem to be ignorant of the phases outlined in most LC plans that go beyond induction...

[niksauntie]

This is a forum for people on LC eating plans, to support their choices. Why are youhere?
Exactly what I was going to say, why do you bother. We are here to support and encourage each other, neither of which one you seem to follow.
Do you not think we have seen all this crap before???
I usually read a link in it's full before I consider posting but 2 paragraphs of this junk was enough for me. If we were here to be dissuaded we wouldn't be here in the first place. Save your time and energy for Dr. Phil, Dr. Ornish, and the rest of the quacks and give us a break.
And btw this forum isn't all about just Atkins, there are an abundance of people here on other plans who are improving their lives everyday. How can you criticize anyone for making posotive changes in their lives?????

[Talon]

Dr Phil is the one I heard say about overweight people: "Just stop eating so much!". I won't give anything else he says on iota of credibility.

[Thelma]

Is it possible that we are muddling Dr. Phil Kaplan and Dr. Phil (McGraw)?

By the way, Talon, as a big Dr. Phil (McGraw) fan, I want to ask you to read his whole take on weight - there's more to it than just this one line - and in context, this one line makes more sense than just standing on its own.

[infuriator]

Originally posted by agonycat
Holy cow Atkin's is a fad diet?!?!??!?!?! Wow I didn't think fad's lasted for more than 20 years. Some fad.

Okay you say you have more information about the formula to weight management?

Put up or shut up. Let's see your sources buddy, hope you feel like listing all of them.

Posting an informerical from Dr Phil is hilarious if that is your "proof". I can hardly wait to see the rest of it.

I am calling your bluff. Let's see it.
Phil Kaplan is NOT a doctor and he never claimed to be. He did NOT bash Atkins, he presented his evidence and he even showed respect towards Dr Atkins which is more than I can say for some here.
Time to put up or shut up..here's more for you. I can't wait to see how you are going to refute this

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/diet.fitness/03/20/protein.diet.heart/

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/wl/2000/wlFeatured0400.html

http://www.health101.org/art_Atkins_diet.htm

http://www.hopkinsafter50.com/html/wp/2001/wp1201Feature.html

No matter what I put up you guys will destroy it's credibility. Correct?
It is amazing how defensive you guys get when confronted with evidence and can't come to terms and admit the flaws of this fad diet.

[plum]

:lol: thanks for the entertainment, infuriator. Reading this sort of stuff only reinforces how well researched and well written the works of Mackarness/ Groves/Eades/Atkins are !

[agonycat]

Originally posted by infuriator
Phil Kaplan is NOT a doctor and he never claimed to be. He did NOT bash Atkins, he presented his evidence and he even showed respect towards Dr Atkins which is more than I can say for some here.
Time to put up or shut up..here's more for you. I can't wait to see how you are going to refute this

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/diet.fitness/03/20/protein.diet.heart/

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/wl/2000/wlFeatured0400.html

http://www.health101.org/art_Atkins_diet.htm

http://www.hopkinsafter50.com/html/wp/2001/wp1201Feature.html

No matter what I put up you guys will destroy it's credibility. Correct?
It is amazing how defensive you guys get when confronted with evidence and can't come to terms and admit the flaws of this fad diet.

What I find amazing is You. You thinking you are the first person in the whole world that has come onto this forum and push informericals and news media articles at us. Everything you are presenting we have seen before. We have had "your" type come to the forum over and over again thinking you are going to be the savor of low carb dieters?

Come on give us a break please. What exactly is your profession? Are you a medical doctor? Are you a nutritionalist? Why are YOU taking a hard stand against Low carb diets? Animal activist that takes offense at us eating meat? Medical student that just learned the food pyramid? Body builder? We have seen them all here. We are a support forum. We are in no way affilated with Dr Atkin's nor does he visit this site. If you have a beef with him why not visit www.atkinscenter.com and post all your stuff there. They might care.

Have you read up on insulin resistance? Do you know what it is?
I find it amusing that none of the articles you put up are The formula to weight management is exercise and a diet containing all the energy nutrients and not fad diets.

What pray tell is that magic formula? Please let us in on this great formula you know of that all the doctors and medical researchers have failed to figure out.

Have you read through our forums? OUR research and media threads?

You have proved nothing. You have only put up media hype and garbage research attempts. Having a study of 10 people doing a diet for 10 days and taking blood tests is not research.

So...are you going to be our savor and point us to the light of perfect health and a way to lose weight and resolve medical conditions without medications?

Do you have any idea what we eat? I will give you a hint. It isn't pure meat and cheese and eggs. We consume on a daily basis fresh veggies and fruits! Imagine that. What we don't eat is pasta, rice, sugar, and high starchy things. Guess you didn't bother reading the book eh? OR wait, you didn't get past the first chapter?

fad : a practice or interest followed for a time with exaggerated zeal :

What is your defination of time? Atkin's has been around for almost 30 years now. Some fad huh? It's not a fad my dear.

[infuriator]

Originally posted by plum
:lol: thanks for the entertainment, infuriator. Reading this sort of stuff only reinforces how well researched and well written the works of Mackarness/ Groves/Eades are ! and the work of Atkins is well researched and written :lol: :lol:

[asugar]

If you don't like the Atkins diet, your solution is simple. Just don't follow it. Your stats indicate that you don't have a weight problem so I don't understand why you are even here. As far as I'm concerned, my weight issues are my problem so I will battle it with MY weapon of choice, which happens to be lowcarbing. If you don't like my weapon, fine. Don't use it.
asugar :wave:

[TeriDoodle]

I can't help but feel sorry for people like our guest here, "infuriator". First of all, it's apparent that his goal in life is to aggravate, annoy and infuriate others.... just look at his name. I mean, we all know people like this in our lives....people we work with or neighbors, etc....who are so angry and full of hurt that they purposefully seek to make others feel the same way....so that they can feel better or validate their own feelings? I have no idea, really, why people act this way....I just feel sympathy for them. Surely his motivation is not "caring" about our health....why in the world would he present his case in such an aggressive, antagonistic way? I mean, if I were to go over to the WW board to try to "help" those people (not that I ever would, I have too much respect for others to take charge of their own health), I surely wouldn't charge in the way infuriator has! And hope to be heard? No, this is just someone who needs our prayers, friends.

[infuriator]

Originally posted by agonycat
What I find amazing is You. You thinking you are the first person in the whole world that has come onto this forum and push informericals and news media articles at us. Everything you are presenting we have seen before. We have had "your" type come to the forum over and over again thinking you are going to be the savor of low carb dieters?

Come on give us a break please. What exactly is your profession? Are you a medical doctor? Are you a nutritionalist? Why are YOU taking a hard stand against Low carb diets? Animal activist that takes offense at us eating meat? Medical student that just learned the food pyramid? Body builder? We have seen them all here. We are a support forum. We are in no way affilated with Dr Atkin's nor does he visit this site. If you have a beef with him why not visit www.atkinscenter.com and post all your stuff there. They might care.

Have you read up on insulin resistance? Do you know what it is?
I find it amusing that none of the articles you put up are The formula to weight management is exercise and a diet containing all the energy nutrients and not fad diets.

What pray tell is that magic formula? Please let us in on this great formula you know of that all the doctors and medical researchers have failed to figure out.

Have you read through our forums? OUR research and media threads?

You have proved nothing. You have only put up media hype and garbage research attempts. Having a study of 10 people doing a diet for 10 days and taking blood tests is not research.

So...are you going to be our savor and point us to the light of perfect health and a way to lose weight and resolve medical conditions without medications?

Do you have any idea what we eat? I will give you a hint. It isn't pure meat and cheese and eggs. We consume on a daily basis fresh veggies and fruits! Imagine that. What we don't eat is pasta, rice, sugar, and high starchy things. Guess you didn't bother reading the book eh? OR wait, you didn't get past the first chapter?

fad : a practice or interest followed for a time with exaggerated zeal :

What is your defination of time? Atkin's has been around for almost 30 years now. Some fad huh? It's not a fad my dear.
Heres the solution...get off your ass and exercise and take in the right amount of carbs, protein and fat. There is NO substitute for a proper exercise/workout program and a balanced intake of carbs, proteins, and fats. What is so special about the Atkins Diet ...nothing. You could do yourself a favor and exercise, eliminate his carb restricted diet and live a healthier lifestyle. That is the name of the game.

[agonycat]

Originally posted by infuriator
Heres the solution...get off your ass and exercise and take in the right amount of carbs, protein and fat. There is NO substitute for a proper exercise/workout program and a balanced intake of carbs, proteins, and fats. What is so special about the Atkins Diet ...nothing. You could do yourself a favor and exercise, eliminate his carb restricted diet and live a healthier lifestyle. That is the name of the game.

Perhaps you failed to notice but I lift weights 3 times a week and run the other 3 days.

Please don't resort to foul language or flaming. We do have a policy against such behavior.

Face it. Regardless of what we post you will post counters.

So, why is it you are visiting a low carb forum when you yourself don't follow one?

What is your goal here?

Did you think you would change any of our minds by paying us a visit?

Did you research insulin resistance yet?

What profession did you say you were in?

I see you failed to answer any of these and instead decided to insult.

Oh and BTW these were my numbers yesterday. Care to share yours?

Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1738
Fat: 121 1085 64%
Sat: 48 431 25%
Poly: 21 185 11%
Mono: 42 374 22%
Carbs: 36 123 7%
Fiber: 6 0 0%
Protein: 122 488 29%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%

[infuriator]

Originally posted by agonycat
Perhaps you failed to notice but I lift weights 3 times a week and run the other 3 days.

Please don't resort to foul language or flaming. We do have a policy against such behavior.

Face it. Regardless of what we post you will post counters.

So, why is it you are visiting a low carb forum when you yourself don't follow one?

What is your goal here?

Did you think you would change any of our minds by paying us a visit?

Did you research insulin resistance yet?

What profession did you say you were in?

I see you failed to answer any of these and instead decided to insult.

Oh and BTW these were my numbers yesterday. Care to share yours?

Calories Eaten Today
source grams cals %total
Total: 1738
Fat: 121 1085 64%
Sat: 48 431 25%
Poly: 21 185 11%
Mono: 42 374 22%
Carbs: 36 123 7%
Fiber: 6 0 0%
Protein: 122 488 29%
Alcohol: 0 0 0%
I am a personal trainer with a degree in Exercise Physiology and a degree in nutrition. Is that good enough for you?
As for your calorie breakdown, too much fat. over twice the recommended amount, which is high to begin with, too much saturated fat, way too little carbs. The protein is a little high but not as bad as the others. This type of diet may not be an issue now but ultimately you will find out the hard way and I hope you don't.

[agonycat]

Great!

Perhaps you would like to visit our exercise forums and chat with TrainerDan who is also a professional trainer. He has written several books of his own.

And as for your opinion about my calorie breakdown. I didn't ask for it. Nor do I care for your opinion. My personal doctor is quite pleased with my blood work, heart rate and weight loss. But thanks for your concern.

Now for the rest of my questions that you seemed to have glided over. Want to answer those as well?

I'm rather curious but have you read the New York Times article titled "What if it's all been a big fat lie?" Perhaps you should. It may enlighten you.

One other thing you might consider. Everyone who is a registered member to this forum *IS* doing something about their weight problem. They are exercising AND changing their eating habits.

[infuriator]

Originally posted by agonycat
Great!

Perhaps you would like to visit our exercise forums and chat with TrainerDan who is also a professional trainer. He has written several books of his own.

And as for your opinion about my calorie breakdown. I didn't ask for it. Nor do I care for your opinion. My personal doctor is quite pleased with my blood work, heart rate and weight loss. But thanks for your concern.

Now for the rest of my questions that you seemed to have glided over. Want to answer those as well?

I'm rather curious but have you read the New York Times article titled "What if it's all been a big fat lie?" Perhaps you should. It may enlighten you.

One other thing you might consider. Everyone who is a registered member to this forum *IS* doing something about their weight problem. They are exercising AND changing their eating habits.
I did not come here to be interrogated by the likes of you and I am free to state whatever I want. I find it common among Atkins supporters to get EXTREMELY defensive when presented with credible and overwhelming data against his way. Of course anyone anywhere can find anything to support their claim even if the claims are fallacious.

[doreen T]

Originally posted by infuriator
I....... Of course anyone anywhere can find anything to support their claim even if the claims are fallacious. And you are certainly proving that statement to be TRUE. :)

I'm in the process of reviewing the links you've posted above, and I'm seeing lots of the usual rhetoric and journalistic commentary .. but not a lot of scientific research.

Doreen

[agonycat]

heheheh

You sir amuse me.

I am not getting defensive at all. I have not once cursed or resorted to insults at you (which you have lost control a while back due to anger that you were not getting the reaction you were so hoping for?) I have yet see any "creditable or overwhelming" data from you yet. You have posted informericals and a few news articles. :)


Perhaps you would like to visit this:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60239

One of our members is being featured in the "Muscle and Fitness" magazine.

Or perhaps this site would more suit you?

http://www.quadrafit.com/

Which is run by our own TrainerDan who Moderates our exercise forums.

Perhaps this isn't exactly the site you were hoping for? You were hoping for more of a flame contest perhaps?

:wave: Enjoy the reads.

[DDMariana]

Administrator: could you please just delete this thread?

Obviously, this person has infiltrated a peaceful group to antagonize and offend. In light of all the factual - and polite - responses that Agonycat and others have posted, this debate is moot. He is simply of another school of thought.

:wave:

[suze_c]

I have been reading this thread... looked at the links... shook my head at the intensity in which this forum and way of eating is being attacked... This is a SUPPORT forum for those who are following the low carb way of eating... There are success stories here that are PHENOMENAL!!! Do you HONESTLY think infuriator that ALL of the ppl who are following Atkins or another LC way of eating, haven't TRIED to lose weight other ways? There are many on here who have had nothing but countless frustration on other diets, who ALSO excercised on those diets, and did NOT have the success that they are having on the Low Carb way of eating. Not to mention that many get regular medical and blood tests to gauge how BENEFICIAL the LC way of eating is to their bodies.Do you HONESTLY think that you are going to dissuade everyone on this forum to go to "your way of eating" by coming here and bashing the LC way of eating? I don't think so. I have never seen someone's nick fit them so well... but guess what... you don't infuriate me... you amuse me... and I am not going to personally attack you like you seem to be doing to the excellent ppl who DO get AND give support here. You are entitled to your own opinion... and we don't NEED "saved" from the LC way of eating, for most here, it has been the way of eating that has SAVED us... so please... take your LC bashing somewhere else~ it is not wanted here... and it isn't because "we can't deal with the truth" as you put it... it is because THIS WORKS, when other things have not... exercise included!!

[G.P. Hanes]

Or, if you can't delete the thread, would you please block the troll? :thdown:

I also can think of no reason why this person is posting on this board, other than to disrupt and upset.

Thank you.

G.P.

[agonycat]

Ya'll give the guy a break here. :)

He isn't a medical doctor, so I highly doubt he understand human biology nor what insulin resistance or PCOS is.

I do find it amusing that when he came to the board he "assumed" all of us sat on a couch eating stay puff marshmellows or something :lol: What did you think we ate?

We have about a dozen or so RNs and Doctors and Professional Trainers at our finger tips that are helping to support our way of life.

He has only his degree in nutrition probably learned all about the food pyramid but failed to realize that was done over 30 years ago on really bad research that the medical establishments are questioning BECAUSE of the obesity rates and diabetes is causing ;)

Maybe if he stays around long enough reading our research/media forums and our exercise forums and get to know us a little better he wouldn't be so judgmental. :)

After all *WE* are doing something about our weight problems. Is it possible to open a closed mind?

Keep smiling.

[infuriator]

Well if I am going to be blocked from here(under this name at least) I may as well get a shot in here. All of you people are perfect for Atkins because he knows what you want and what you've all gone through and he preys upon this. He knows you are looking for an easy, non exercise way of losing weight but he does not care if it is done right or not. If you continue to follow his way I pity you all.
See ya next time under my new name

[agonycat]

No need to block you for having a difference of opinion. We love a good debate and discussion. This one however has petered out due to lack of viable materials from certain parties.

I do believe you are missing the point in our debate. We are not at Atkin's mercy. We do exercise and I am not sure where you came up with such nonsense that we don't. Did you not browse through our forums?

Or did you perhaps do a goggle search on Atkin's and decided this would be a good place to drop in and try to get people mad by trying to refute the Atkin's diet with informericals and news hype? Did you even look into our CKD forums? What about our BFL?

Too bad you are leaving. You could have learned something by sticking around :)

[doreen T]

Originally posted by DDMariana
Administrator: could you please just delete this thread?

Obviously, this person has infiltrated a peaceful group to antagonize and offend. In light of all the factual - and polite - responses that Agonycat and others have posted, this debate is moot. He is simply of another school of thought. Debate is healthy, even if the member in question chooses to retain his/her blind righteousness. The arguments presented here, and the responses to them deserve to be read. Current and future members may find it helpful to know this information when they encounter provocation and nay-sayers in their own lives.

That being said, flaming, personal attacks and profanity are direct violations of the Registration Agreement. Membership can and will be suspended should any debate reduce to those behaviours.

I just read agonycat's reply above here, and agree. Infuriator plunged head-first into low-carb waters with an agenda to convince us of the wrongness of our ways. Unhappily, his lack of understanding of all sides of the issue except the skewed one has rendered his arguments lopsided and ... soaking wet.

He would do well to spend some time reading through the Studies, Research, Fitness and Health forums here. This Atkins support section is only a tiny part of what Active Low Carber is all about.

Doreen

[Trainerdan]

Here's a few studies that back-up the LC WOE.

You will notice that the last one is by the ACSM, which is obviously an impartial entity.

Low Carb Diet Alters Hormones

Dr. Jozel Langfort and colleagues from the Polish Academy of Sciences in Warsaw found that during exercise in people following low carb diet, adrenaline and growth hormone levels increase more than when people are on normal diet. Lactic acid levels were also lower. (International Journal of Sports Nuritition and Exercise , 11: 248-257, 2001).

American College of Sports Medicine looks at keto diets

A group of people following a ketogenic diet (10% carbs, high fat) were asked to maintain their normal activity level and to eat sufficient calories equal to maintenance. At the end of the study, subjects lost 2.8 kilograms of bodyweight (6.6 lbs), and 4% of bodyfat (peformed by DEXA analysis). Additionally, they gained 1.4 kilograms of lean mass (3.08 lbs). (Med Sci Sport Exercise , 33(5): S336, 2001)

[Trainerdan]

As for non-exercise, many of the members here DO exercise. Assuming tha we/they all don't is gross ignorance.

See ya next time under my new name

There's ways to block that too. :cool: Do your homework before you come in fighting next time.

[Tikerberi]

The first clue to me was the nickname...INFURIATOR! Why would someone pick a handle like that unless it's how they identify their role? Infuriate means to piss people off. That is the ONLY intent here. Any perception that this person wants intelligent, candid, open-minded debate is incorrect. They only want to antagonize.

Yes, I agree that this is a troll. I think that everyone's energy could be much better spent in responding to newbies' posts and providing support to those on this WOL than wasting energy on pointless argument.

AJ

[suze_c]

See ya next time under my new name It's been said, " A rose is just as sweet by any other name" or something along those lines... well, an infuriator is just as much as an infuriator under any other name as well... I agree with AJ... although a good debate is good reading... we could be supporting the others here or welcoming newbies~ and with that said~ that is my last post on this thread.

[Josiemk]

Not only do you need to read pass the Induction section in DANDR but you need to do your research a little deeper, then just jumping to what ever you want to beleive. I see that you are a personal trainer well that shows that you should be in shape if not then you wouldn't have any clients, after all whose going to go to an overweight trainer in order to lose weight.
BTW I have worked out for years & I did the low cal & low fat diets while working out for an average of 2 hours a day 5 days a week. All that it did was made me a healthy chubby person. And everyone I know that does Atkins also exersizes. I started Atkins a little over a month ago and guess what I am now close to my goal weight & I have muscle definition. My fatige , headaches , bloating , stomache pains & muscle spaziums are all gone. I say thank God for Atkins & Low carbs diets I should have done it sooner.
And another thing not only does Dr. Atkins push exersize in his book he also recommends doctors visits regularly.
Any ways who is this Phil Kaplin, I never heard of him, and he is definitly no Doctor. Is he just another sales man. Trying to say he's a doctor , I noticed that people are calling him Dr.Phil Kaplin.
Well I wasted enough time responding to this negatism.:yawn:

Josie

[infuriator]

Originally posted by Josiemk
Not only do you need to read pass the Induction section in DANDR but you need to do your research a little deeper, then just jumping to what ever you want to beleive. I see that you are a personal trainer well that shows that you should be in shape if not then you wouldn't have any clients, after all whose going to go to an overweight trainer in order to lose weight.
BTW I have worked out for years & I did the low cal & low fat diets while working out for an average of 2 hours a day 5 days a week. All that it did was made me a healthy chubby person. And everyone I know that does Atkins also exersizes. I started Atkins a little over a month ago and guess what I am now close to my goal weight & I have muscle definition. My fatige , headaches , bloating , stomache pains & muscle spaziums are all gone. I say thank God for Atkins & Low carbs diets I should have done it sooner.
And another thing not only does Dr. Atkins push exersize in his book he also recommends doctors visits regularly.
Any ways who is this Phil Kaplin, I never heard of him, and he is definitly no Doctor. Is he just another sales man. Trying to say he's a doctor , I noticed that people are calling him Dr.Phil Kaplin.
Well I wasted enough time responding to this negatism.:yawn:

Josie Phil Kaplan is not a doctor, who said he was? Bottom line, too much fat in the diet and too little carbs WILL lead to problems somewhere down the road!!

[agonycat]

Originally posted by infuriator
Phil Kaplan is not a doctor, who said he was? Bottom line, too much fat in the diet and too little carbs WILL lead to problems somewhere down the road!!

What problems?

Do you have scientific proof that any of us will have problems down the road? Does anyone?

30 years ago the United States Government got behind some faulty research resulting in it's support of the Food Pyramid. 30 years later Americans are obese and diabetic and it relates to what the medical and nutritionalist deem a proper diet.

:)

So where's the proof that low carb dieting causes problems? After a year on this board I have seen class 2 diabetics able to get off insulin and all medications. I have seen people with high blood pressure go to normal. I was one of these.

Instead of being so defensive yourself. How about giving us a chance to show you exactly what low carbin is all about instead of having your mind brainwashed by 30 year old science?

[infuriator]

Originally posted by agonycat
What problems?

Do you have scientific proof that any of us will have problems down the road? Does anyone?

30 years ago the United States Government got behind some faulty research resulting in it's support of the Food Pyramid. 30 years later Americans are obese and diabetic and it relates to what the medical and nutritionalist deem a proper diet.

:)

So where's the proof that low carb dieting causes problems? After a year on this board I have seen class 2 diabetics able to get off insulin and all medications. I have seen people with high blood pressure go to normal. I was one of these.

Instead of being so defensive yourself. How about giving us a chance to show you exactly what low carbin is all about instead of having your mind brainwashed by 30 year old science?
First of all I believe the food pyramid is too general and I would not recommend all aspects of it. It is not specific enough. I am mainly concerned with the high fat content that low carb diets suggest. When you say low how low are we talking. If we are talking down in the 20g/per daY amount then that is dangerous. The brain and nervous system need carbs and this is fact, like it or not. It is ok to ingest carbs as long as the sugars are eliminated from the diet. Reducing carbs is fine but going to extreme low levels is not regardless of what Atkins or anyone else says.

[agonycat]

Could you perhaps explain the American Eskimo's diet then and why they have a longer life span than the average American? I mean their diet is made up mostly of fat/protein with very little if any carbs in the winter months.

Perhaps this thread will lead you to some other discussions we have had on the subject of no carb vs low carb.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43217&highlight=eskimo

[ginkirk]

You know -- after 2.5 months I'm still trying to adjust to low-carb vs. low-fat thinking myself - and I'm no kind of "oligist" or MD either. Imagine how it must be for people who've dedicated themselves so completely to the food pyramid [scheme] ? Some people have spent years of their lives & hard earned $$ learning about the kind of nutrition this poster refers to, & now here's a NEW way of looking at things that calls their training into question. It's threatening. Obviously, there are many people who can't digest new ways of thinking about nutrition. For some people, change is threatening & is to be feared and rejected. On the other hand, the rest of us can simply open our minds & reap the benefits!

[itsjoyful]

I feel the need to jump in here and say that I think the resistance you're getting is because you are being far to general. The majority of us do not MAINTAIN a carb level of below or even at 20 grams a day. For some it's quite a bit more.

We all know what we've gotten ourselves into. Do you really have the ego to believe that you are the first nay sayer?

I would also venture to say that FAT is far more essential to a healthy body than carbs. I've actually never even heard of an 'essential carb'.

Why no reply or snappy response to our Trainerdan's research?

Peace,
Brenda

[doreen T]

I have a request ... PLEASE, when quoting a long post .. use your mouse to remove the irrelevant parts of the quote, and leave only the statement(s) to which you wish to respond in your reply. It makes for difficult and awkward reading to have to re-read the duplicate of a post that came right before ... and then the reply is a brief message addressing only a tiny part of it. It wastes space, and is inconsiderate of readers with slower dial-up connections to have to scroll and scroll.

If you just wish to make a simple reply, then use the "post reply" button at the top or bottom of the thread.

Thanking you in advance,

Doreen

[Trainerdan]

A Ketogenic Diet Favorably Affects Serum Biomarkers for Cardiovascular Disease in Normal-Weight Men

Matthew J. Sharman, William J. Kraemer, Dawn M. Love, Neva G. Avery, Ana L. Gómez, Timothy P. Scheett and Jeff S. Volek

Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269-1110

Very low-carbohydrate (ketogenic) diets are popular yet little is known regarding the effects on serum biomarkers for cardiovascular disease (CVD).

This study examined the effects of a 6-wk ketogenic diet on fasting and postprandial serum biomarkers in 20 normal-weight, normolipidemic men.

Twelve men switched from their habitual diet (17% protein, 47% carbohydrate and 32% fat) to a ketogenic diet (30% protein, 8% carbohydrate and 61% fat) and eight control subjects consumed their habitual diet for 6 wk.

Fasting blood lipids, insulin, LDL particle size, oxidized LDL and postprandial triacylglycerol (TAG) and insulin responses to a fat-rich meal were determined before and after treatment. There were significant decreases in fasting serum TAG (-33%), postprandial lipemia after a fat-rich meal (-29%), and fasting serum insulin concentrations (-34%) after men consumed the ketogenic diet.

Fasting serum total and LDL cholesterol and oxidized LDL were unaffected and HDL cholesterol tended to increase with the ketogenic diet (+11.5%; P = 0.066).

In subjects with a predominance of small LDL particles pattern B, there were significant increases in mean and peak LDL particle diameter and the percentage of LDL-1 after the ketogenic diet.

There were no significant changes in blood lipids in the control group.

To our knowledge this is the first study to document the effects of a ketogenic diet on fasting and postprandial CVD biomarkers independent of weight loss.

The results suggest that a short-term ketogenic diet does not have a deleterious effect on CVD risk profile and may improve the lipid disorders characteristic of atherogenic dyslipidemia .

[infuriator]

Originally posted by ginkirk
You know -- after 2.5 months I'm still trying to adjust to low-carb vs. low-fat thinking myself - and I'm no kind of "oligist" or MD either. Imagine how it must be for people who've dedicated themselves so completely to the food pyramid [scheme] ? Some people have spent years of their lives & hard earned $$ learning about the kind of nutrition this poster refers to, & now here's a NEW way of looking at things that calls their training into question. It's threatening. Obviously, there are many people who can't digest new ways of thinking about nutrition. For some people, change is threatening & is to be feared and rejected. On the other hand, the rest of us can simply open our minds & reap the benefits!
I never said I agree with the food pyramid. Just like Atkins I agree with CERTAIN aspects of the food pyramid. I agree with certain aspect of the Atkins Diet. I totally disagree with the amount of fat he allows in the diet. Fat is ok but the amounts he says are ok aren't and the reasons for that have been thoroughly documented and study after study for many years have backed this up.

[Trainerdan]

Effects of a Very-Low-Carbohydrate Diet with Nutritional Supplementation in Overweight Individuals

WS Yancy, JS Edman, KF Tomlin, CE Perkins, EC Westman

PURPOSE : Obesity-related illness is the second-leading preventable cause of death in the United States. As the prevalence of obesity increases, many Americans are turning to very-low-carbohydrate diets to lose weight despite little scientific information regarding efficacy and safety. The purpose of this study was to evaluate the body mass and metabolic effects of a very-low-carbohydrate diet and nutritional supplementation in healthy, overweight individuals.

METHODS : Fifty-one overweight (BMI > 25 kg/m2), otherwise healthy individuals (normal history, physical exam and basic laboratory tests) were recruited into this six-month, single-arm, prospective clinical trial. The intervention included dietary counseling based on a popular very-low-carbohydrate (ketone-producing) diet book, group meetings (every other week for 3 months, then monthly for 3 months), daily nutritional supplementation (consisting of vitamins, minerals and oils) and an exercise recommendation. Dietary adherence was monitored by urinary ketone measurement.

RESULTS : Forty-one of 51 subjects (80) attended visits through 16 weeks. This efficacy analysis is based on data from these 41 individuals through 16 weeks. The mean age was 43.7 years (SD = 8.9); 76 were female; 76 were Caucasian, 22 were African-American. At baseline, the mean weight was 87.0 kg (SD = 11.1), BMI was 31.4 kg/m2 (SD = 2.8, range: 25.8 to 39.7 kg/m2), total cholesterol was 214.5 mg/dl (SD = 34.9), LDL was 134.4 mg/dl (SD = 30.4), HDL was 52.5 mg/dl (SD = 13.5), triglycerides were 129.9 mg/dl (SD = 61.9) and total cholesterol/HDL ratio was 4.3 (SD = 1.3).

All subjects lost weight after 16 weeks (range: 2.7 to 17.0 kg). Mean weight decreased by 9.7 kg (SD = 3.4, p < 0.001 by paired t-test); mean BMI decreased by 3.5 kg/m2 (SD = 1.2, range: 1.1 to 6.2 kg/m2, p < 0.001). The amount of weight loss positively correlated with level of urinary ketones (p = 0.003). After 16 weeks, there were significant changes in mean total cholesterol of 11.8 mg/dl (p = 0.03), triglycerides of 52.1 mg/dl (p < 0.001), HDL of +4.7 mg/dl (p = 0.006) and total cholesterol/HDL ratio of 0.7 (p < 0.001). There was no statistically significant change in mean LDL. There were no significant changes over 16 weeks in mean serum uric acid (5.1 to 5.2 mg/dl) or creatinine (0.86 to 0.85 mg/dl), but mean BUN increased from 12.7 to 15.9 mg/dl (p < 0.001). There were no clinically significant adverse effects of the diet.

CONCLUSION : In this study of healthy, overweight individuals, a very-low-carbohydrate diet with nutritional supplementation led to weight loss of 0.6 kg per week. This dietary approach was efficacious for weight loss while significantly improving total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL and total cholesterol/HDL ratio.

[infuriator]

How much was each of these individuals' fat intake during this study?

[Trainerdan]

I totally disagree with the amount of fat he allows in the diet.

Well, if you cut the carbs in the diet down it must be replaced with something, otehrwise you stand to go into an extreme caloric defecit and we know this will downgrade thyroid activity after a short time.

By adding fat to the diet you add a very calorie dense food source to the mix. And if you consume this additional fat as mainly monounstaurated fats, and Essential Fatty Acids (both of which improve cholesterol profile, as well as a host of other benefits to the body) I do not see where the problem is.

A diet of varied protein sources, monounsaturated fats, essential fatty acids, and some saturated fat is NOT an unhealthy diet. For some, it is the only option as nothing else had worked.

As the studies I have posted above show, it does not affect the markers for CVD ... rather it IMPROVES them.

I don't see the problem.

[Trainerdan]

How much was each of these individuals' fat intake during this study?

They used Atkin's guidelines.

[plum]

infuriator..
Im interested to see youre a personal trainer.

I am a registered nurse with many years experience- including 2 years spent in cardio thoracic surgery. My duties at that time included working with hospital dieticians, actually teaching post operative patients how to exercise and follow a healthy diet . I think I am as well informed as you are. ( better, actually ;) )

I just wanted to say that like most people here, I didnt enter into LC lightly. I have read extensively about the subject.

We all of us have a right to make our own decisions, and mine is based on knowledge, experience and research.

I wish you luck with whatever youre searching for.

[Kristine]

Infuriator quipped: "Fat is ok but the amounts he says are ok aren't and the reasons for that have been thoroughly documented and study after study for many years have backed this up."

Please site your references, and if you could, only include studies which isolated high amounts of fat only - not high amounts of carbohydrate, also.

If I may raise another point, do you really think there's only one correct diet for everyone? If so, why? Is there only one 'correct' therapy for depression, for example? Of course not. Some people choose anti-depressants. Some choose 'nature-ceuticals' like St John's Wort or Sam-E. Some choose psychotherapy. Some choose support groups. Some choose a 'spiritual' therapy, perhaps avoiding medical care altogether and only see a preist or other spiritual leader. Is one better than the other? As long as it works, <b>what difference does it make? </b>

Don't you think it's highly likely that many people simply can't handle carbohydrates? Can't you accept the fact that many people have in fact become addicted to them, and that it is literally impossible for them to stop once they start eating them? Can't you accept that the addiction model applies? Accept it, because I'm telling you, <b>it's a real phenomenon</b>. I implore you. You're persuing a career where you're going to be telling people how to eat. Stop acting as if there's only one correct approach and accept that while you may have learned a lot in school, you do not have THE answer.

... and btw: please read the entire book before you criticize it. :rolleyes:

[fromagina]

I'm new to the board, but I had to jump in and echo previous posts.

Nothing in the article is new or necessarily true, and it isn't going to stop any of us from following Atkins. My nearly 2 months on induction has been nothing short of miraculous and....get this...

My blood pressure and cholesterol are normal, my brain still functions, and I'm not eating more than 1,500 to 1,700 calories in a day because my appetite is under control.

If that's unhealthy, too bad. It's better than being obese.

EVERY weight-loss plan can be bad if someone takes it to an extreme.

[infuriator]

Originally posted by Trainerdan
Well, if you cut the carbs in the diet down it must be replaced with something, otehrwise you stand to go into an extreme caloric defecit and we know this will downgrade thyroid activity after a short time.

By adding fat to the diet you add a very calorie dense food source to the mix. And if you consume this additional fat as mainly monounstaurated fats, and Essential Fatty Acids (both of which improve cholesterol profile, as well as a host of other benefits to the body) I do not see where the problem is.

A diet of varied protein sources, monounsaturated fats, essential fatty acids, and some saturated fat is NOT an unhealthy diet. For some, it is the only option as nothing else had worked.

As the studies I have posted above show, it does not affect the markers for CVD ... rather it IMPROVES them.

I don't see the problem. Thanks for the response. Another question, don't you think that the high amount of fat that the Atkins Diet suggests is to high in fat as it relates to laying down plaque on the arterial walls and do you think that the large amounts of fat allowed will be deposited as depot fat.
Also, has anyone here had their bodyfat tested before and after trying the Atkins Diet and if so, how much did your lean body mass improve, if at all.

[TombRaider]

Muscle mass was a big concern for me (as it should be) and so I had my body fat % tested prior to starting the diet and after three months (during which time I lost approximately 20 lbs). As you'll see from my stats below, my % body fat has dropped quite predominantly (7 percentage points). For the majority of time that I have been on the diet (with the exception of the 2 week induction period), I've been consuming 30-40 grams of carbs a day as well as weight training 2 x per week and cycling 35 miles (approximately 2 hours) 3 x a week.

[Quinadal]

Originally posted by infuriator
Thanks for the response. Another question, don't you think that the high amount of fat that the Atkins Diet suggests is to high in fat as it relates to laying down plaque on the arterial walls and do you think that the large amounts of fat allowed will be deposited as depot fat.
Also, has anyone here had their bodyfat tested before and after trying the Atkins Diet and if so, how much did your lean body mass improve, if at all.
Nope! Because that's what insulin controls and if you don't load up on carbs, then there ISN'T the extra insulin to make the extra cholesterol, to thicken the arterial walls, or make your body store the fat as fat!
The amount of carbs that LC'ers eat just makes enough insulin to regulate the systems NORMALLY and to best efficiency.

Oh and BTW, I'M a nurse too!

[infuriator]

Originally posted by Quinadal
Nope! Because that's what insulin controls and if you don't load up on carbs, then there ISN'T the extra insulin to make the extra cholesterol, to thicken the arterial walls, or make your body store the fat as fat!
The amount of carbs that LC'ers eat just makes enough insulin to regulate the systems NORMALLY and to best efficiency.

Oh and BTW, I'M a nurse too! I am not talking about cholesterol laying down fat I am talking about fat laying down plaque on the arterial walls. Also, how about the fact that the nervous system and brain feed on carbs and need a certain amount of them. In addition, why are carbs so bad when you consider that two thirds of the carbs ingested is needed by the brain and the nervous system. Carbs are vital in this respect.

[Quinadal]

The brain and nervous system DON'T NEED CARBS!
They're perfectly happy running off ketones!
And fat doesn't lay ANYTHING in the arteries without high amounts of carbs to make the insulin levels get higher!
Insulin also causes high blood pressure and thickens the arterial walls!


Admin note - post edited to remove inflammatory comment. Doreen

[agonycat]

Originally posted by infuriator
Also, how about the fact that the nervous system and brain feed on carbs and need a certain amount of them. In addition, why are carbs so bad when you consider that two thirds of the carbs ingested is needed by the brain and the nervous system. Carbs are vital in this respect.

I see someone didn't read the link I provided to him yesterday.

I use to think exactly the way you did about the carb limit until we got into THIS (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43217&highlight=eskimo) discussion.

Perhaps if you read it, you may understand a bit more on the human body doesn't need carbs to function :)

[agonycat]

Another article you may find an interesting read if you haven't seen it yet: New York Times (http://atkinscenter.com/pyramid.html)

[Dana114]

Originally posted by infuriator
I am not talking about cholesterol laying down fat I am talking about fat laying down plaque on the arterial walls. Also, how about the fact that the nervous system and brain feed on carbs and need a certain amount of them. In addition, why are carbs so bad when you consider that two thirds of the carbs ingested is needed by the brain and the nervous system. Carbs are vital in this respect.


ummmm, fat *IS* the cholesterol floating around in our systems, 5% comes from our diets and 95% is produced by the liver. What do think cholesterol is?? This diet REDUCES cholesterol because it causes fat burning resulting in lower LDL and triglycerides and higher HDL.


The brain operates 25% more efficiently on ketones and does not need carbs to operate.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-26-2002/0001789585&EDATE=

From What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie:

When I interviewed ketosis experts, however, they universally sided with Atkins, and suggested that maybe the medical community and the media confuse ketosis with ketoacidosis, a variant of ketosis that occurs in untreated diabetics and can be fatal. ''Doctors are scared of ketosis,'' says Richard Veech, an N.I.H. researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel Laureate Hans Krebs. ''They're always worried about diabetic ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state. I would argue it is the normal state of man. It's not normal to have McDonald's and a delicatessen around every corner. It's normal to starve.''

Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene. We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently live off that fat when necessary. Rather than being poison, which is how the press often refers to ketones, they make the body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for the brain. Veech calls ketones ''magic'' and has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/07FAT.html?pagewanted=all&position=top

[BruceH]

I've been doing Atkins for more than three years and according to my bloodwork, I haven't been this healthy since I was in my 20s (I'm in my 50s). I'd like this Atkins skeptic to provide us with harder evidence than the OPINIONS of people who have never tried it. If Atkins ruined my health, I'd make it my life's work to inform people about it. I'd be on all the talk shows. I'd be haunting all the chat boards. I'd sue Atkins for everything he has. I'd start my own web site and do interviews with the media. I'd ask Hillary where I could hire a good ghost writer to write a book that I could claim as my own. But nobody is doing that. Where are all the victims? Can this skeptic provide us with any statistics? How many people were harmed by low carbing last year? How many people have died? Give us a few case histories. What are their names? What happened to them? In what medical journal are their cases reported? Surely the Census Bureau can provide him with this information since they know how many flush toilets every household in America has. Can this person come up with even ONE verifiable case of Atkins harming anyone in the last 20 years? I'm a journalist and I certainly haven't been able to find anyone. All I've ever encountered is shallow thinkers who parrot the uncorroborated claims that have been circulating since the 70s. Maybe Dr. Atkins has a team of black-clad commandos who spirit these people away in the dead of the night so they can't tell their stories.

[agonycat]

Originally posted by BruceH
Maybe Dr. Atkins has a team of black-clad commandos who spirit these people away in the dead of the night so they can't tell their stories.

Oh now that is a thought! Maybe they are in a hanger in Area 51 with the Alien's?

No wait that wouldn't work. If there were opponents of Atkin's the government would WANT them to come forward so they don't look like idiots for pushing the Food Pyramid on is ;)

:wave:

[BruceH]

Shhhh, don't say the g word. You could be next.

[TeriDoodle]

LOVE IT, Bruce!!! Well said!!

[Buckett]

Originally posted by infuriator

Also, has anyone here had their bodyfat tested before and after trying the Atkins Diet and if so, how much did your lean body mass improve, if at all.

My lean body mass went up. I gained 4 pounds of muscle overall without any exercise during on-going weight loss.

[Thelma]

Infuriator,

I'm just curious - after reading all the info you've been given here so far, are you at least willing to open your mind a bit more and check into this further?

My guess is, that considering what information we were ALL fed growing up, everyone (99%? - guessing) of all low carbers were very skeptical at first. Who wouldn't be?

[tofi]

I have just passed 4 years, mostly on LC. The weight loss hasn't been too big because of medications & surgery and going off the plan. But my health is much better. BP always was normal 120/80 but quickly went to low normal 113/76 and has stayed there for 4 years. I have successfully come through 2 major surgeries, and blood tests pre-op each time showed excellent kidney and liver function. The cardiologist said I have "fantastic heart function".

By the way, I did Atkins back in 1972 for 6 months and got down to 145 and looked great. But I somehow didn't realize that I should have kept on eating lowcarb. Now I know that so this is my way of eating forever. And 30 years later, my kidneys and liver AND arteries are in great shape, even after 4 years of really staying LC much of the time.

[doreen T]

It's fine to disagree with and debate each other's opinions, but personal attacks and flames are a direct violation of the Registration Agreement. I posted a warning in this thread yesterday.

I have removed some inflammatory posts.
============================

For the record, only certain cells in the mid-brain, and red blood cells MUST have glucose, since they lack mitochondria and cannot use ketones or other fatty acid derivatives. The small amounts of glucose required does not need to be consumed in the diet, since the liver can manufacture glucose quite nicely from dietary proteins, in the process of gluconeogenesis. Please review your first year physiology texts for an explanation of this process.

Doreen

[BruceH]

It isn't flaming if it's true. I'm sorry to see that you deleted one of my messages the same day I registered, while you allowed that person to torment people for days. This is not the environment for me. At any rate, my work here is done. I'm off to my home Atkins board. Adios.

[doreen T]

Bruce,

It's fine to point out errors and to object to another member's words and behaviours in an impersonal manner, but insults and name-calling cannot be permitted. Sorry you feel the way you do, and I wish you well on your low-carb journey.

Doreen

[Trainerdan]

Just to put it out there in response to his Lean Mass question, when I first started LC, it was through Atkins. This was back in 1996 - 1997.

I started at a higher weight and bodyfat I am sure, but I didn't start keeping track of it until I was at 240 lbs. and 26% bodyfat.

Start : 240 at 26% = 178 lbs lean mass, 62 lbs fat mass

Finished Atkins 2/22/97 : 210 at 14% = 188 lean mass, 22 lbs fat mass

Since then, based on my bodybuilding goals and other exercise performance issues, I switched to the CKD approach for LC.

My current stats are :

230 lbs at 10% = 207 lean mass, 23 lbs. fat

Of course, I did maintain a weight lifting program while I was on Atkins, and I did cardio work.

That said, Atkins is a WOE that promotes fat loss. Lean mass gains are a secondary (but desireable) product of the WOE.

[GO6AND8]

I know I'm new here but I just have to speak up! I visit a NASCAR board on a regular basis and this sad creature reminds me of some of the visitors to that board in the past! His screen name speaks volumes! If this guy is what he says he is, he is just spouting the same complaints the medical proffession tried to put out there years ago! I don't know who his Dr. Phil is and I really don't care! The Atkins diet and the TSP diet were recommended to me by, of all people, my personal physician! He has researched it! He has used it! He's a conservative doctor and feels the Atkins Diet is the absolute best, healthiest diet ever! Who can you trust if not your personal physician! So go ahead, Infuriator and say what's on yor mind! When you get your MD, let me know!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry everyone! I hope this isn't over the top bt I've never had any tolerance for trouble makers! :mad:

[agonycat]

Originally posted by BruceH
while you allowed that person to torment people for days. I point out that you took no action against this person until I criticized moderators for not doing so.

You kids are aware there is an "ignore" feature on this board right? If someone really offends you so much that you feel you are being tormented by them you can:

a) Not click on the link that the user has posted to
b) Go to "profile" and add the user to your ignore list
c) Just scan the posts and ignore anything said by the user you don't like.

Setting a user to ignore squelches the post by the said user to you seeing "this user is on your ignore list" but you see everyone else's responses. Gives you an out of context read of the threads but you don't get into the mindless banter of someone.


Pretty easy :)

[Paminpa]

FYI-----way back in 1847 a doctor in Austria discovered if he had the other doctors WASH their hands before delivering a baby they could cut the mortality rate from a whopping 30% to near zero. Do you think the medical establishment of the day gave him honors? Do you think they applauded his efforts? [In Europe and] in the United States the newly formed AMA drummed him out of business! He died insane, broken by a medical hierarchy that refused to listen. My point? Dr. Atkins has been the object of ridicule by the AMA for 20 or 30 years. This is the same kind of bashing the AMA is most famous for.

[GO6AND8]

It's nice to know that doctors are beginning to agree that Low Carb Programs are legitimate! When I first heard about the Atkins Diet, everyone said I would die of a heart attack! Imagine my husbands face when I came home and asked..."Guess what diet Dr. A (my doc) told me to try?" It was priceless! I don't know how true this is but a few years back, when the Atkins Diet was getting popular the Low Fat Diets were really getting popular. But the Atkins Diet was becoming a threat and the mass criticism began! Like I said, I don't profess this to be true but I know I read it somewhere! Kinda reminds me of politics! :p

[ReadyforLC]

Hey Agonycat,

I don't think he's the same guy as "Mike". His english is slightly better.

[skyspinner]

Originally posted by infuriator
http://www.philkaplan.com/thefitnesstruth/atkins1.htm

I'd say Mr. Atkins was caught. Enjoy! :D

This long-winded monograph doesn't "prove" anything!

[Scarlet]

Infuriator

I see you are now beginning to listen to what people are saying on this forum! There is a big problem with carbs for many, many people. I also was told to do low fat, but just got sicker and sicker while gaining weight. It has taken me nearly two years to really change my mindset re fat, so I can see how you are perplexed.

It is also worth mentioning that there are a multitude of lC plans, not just Atkins. Some of these DO actually restrict fat . However, the main thing for appetite , health and weight is not to go overboard on carbs. Do you know why the whole low fat theory started in the first place? Read and find out about it.

Finally, I have to say I find Phil's comment (below) hilarious! It must be one of the stupidest attempt at logic I have ever heard of in my life! I mean has this guy heard of cooking, recipes or vegetables? :roll:

" Firstly, while butter and cream cheese and sour cream are permitted, you're not allowed to eat potatoes or bread. What in the world will you put the butter, cream cheese, and sour cream on?

This amused me very much! What an argument against low carb!

[Gwyn]

"Firstly, while butter and cream cheese and sour cream are permitted, you're not allowed to eat potatoes or bread. What in the world will you put the butter, cream cheese, and sour cream on?"

Well, I put butter and sour cream on vegetables (it's especially good on cauliflower). And I dip pecans in cream cheese. :)

-G.

[puma_power]

To bdeeley:
Your point about statistical significance of kidney stones is right-on! I was thinking the same thing myself while reading Doctor Phil's rant...also, the fact that no-one defines the level of ketones which leads to ketoacidosis has been a source of puzzlement to me for a long time. I am a Type 1 diabetic, and am constantly being warned of the danger of ketoacidosis...in fact, high ketones in my urine is something caused by my eating too MANY carbs, not too little!
I have tried the standard nutritionist "healthy" diet, and I simply cannot keep my blood sugars in adequate control with that--even "complex" carbs, such as oatmeal (my favorite breakfast), shoot my blood sugar up to unnacceptable levels soon after eating, but increasing my insulin dosage leads to dangerous hypoglycemia later on.
I now do the Dr. Bernstein diet, and it works for me. No, it is not fun, and it is not "normal" to cut out large amounts of a major "nutrient"--but it is not "normal" to have a non-functioning pancreas, either. My body has a disease, and cannot be treated as a "normal" body. I suspect that many people who find success with low-carbing where other diets have failed also have a compromised/abnormal metabolism (including above-normal blood sugar alot of the time).
It is much more harmful to have above-normal blood sugars by eating alot of carbs in order to avoid "ketosis " than it is to cut way back on carbs and have normal blood sugars (and there are many studies to back this up, such as the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial/1983-1993, though Dr. Bernstein was an early pioneer and has the health to prove it--diabetic for 55 years and healthier than most non-diabetics!). Personally, I am not afraid of kidney stones--I'm afraid of kidney FAILURE! (Not to mention blindness, amputations, heart attack, and you name it, high blood sugar causes it!).
Also, I'd like to point out that, in my particular diet, I eat enough protein and green vegetables to convert to the proper amount of carbs for my energy needs--most people who eat high-carb diets, even "healthy" carbs store a good amount of those as unused glycogen in the liver, which turns to fat (unless the person is a VERY active, athlete with no metabolic problems, in which case, go forth and eat carbs, God Bless). I doubt I am ever in ketosis, anyway, due to the fact that the protein and veggies I eat DO convert to glucose over time--I'm sure I have fewer ketones in my body than I did on my "recommended" diet. In addition, ALL of the carbs I do eat are very, very high fiber (since the fibrous content is not digested and does not raise my blood sugar). In fact, other than the higher fat content (which I don't have an issue with), I probably eat a much "healthier" diet than most people, by ANY standard.

At some point we have to stop jumping on whatever bandwagon is passing by and see what works for each of us as individuals. We are all so different that how could the same diet work for all of us?? I mean, every human body worked in exactly the same way, we'd all get the exact same disease(s), live to be the exact same age and die from the exact same causes. Instead, there are as many manifestations of disease and health as there are people. Even I, with Type 1 Diabetes, do not respond in exactly the same way to the same diet and exercise as other T1 Diabetics. All doctors recognize this.
So, I respect whatever diet any individual uses that keeps him/herself happy and healthy. And more power to whoever has the perseverence and willpower to find THEIR most effective WOE and stick to it!
Good luck to all,
Puma

BTW, if anyone's interested in looking up the study I mentioned, this URL has a good explanation:
http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/diabetes/pubs/dcct1/dcct.htm#what%20is

[doreen T]

Just a note ... ketoacidosis is not caused by too high ketones. Ketones are a result of the condition, not the cause.

It's caused by out-of-control high blood sugars in diabetics, who are unable to produce any insulin to move the sugar out of the blood and into the cells. The high blood sugar creates an acid condition in the blood. What happens next .. is that the liver is forced to start breaking down fat to make ketones in order to provide fuel for the body .. which is basically "starving". The sugar-fuel is there in abundance, but the cells can't use it without insulin. The presence of high levels of ketones in addition to the high blood sugars does make the acid condition worse. Plus, the high concentration of sugars and ketones will also cause extreme fluid losses and dehydration. The situation is very serious ... life-threatening. The person needs insulin and fluids ASAP to bring those high sugars down, and to correct the dehydration.

Ketosis brought on by a controlled ketogenic diet, or even in ordinary starvation ... is accompanied by lower blood sugar and appropriated insulin levels. The two conditions are totally different.

Doreen

[puma_power]

"Just a note ... ketoacidosis is not caused by too high ketones. Ketones are a result of the condition, not the cause....
Ketosis brought on by a controlled ketogenic diet, or even in ordinary starvation ... is accompanied by lower blood sugar and appropriated insulin levels. The two conditions are totally different."

-->Thanks so much Doreen! Thank you for clarifying! As I said, no-one is ever clear about that distinction, and it is confusing. Alot of doctors tell diabetics even that they shouldn't lose much weight, because it would create too many ketones, which they un-categorically claim are bad...There was a diabetic on another forum that has gained weight because of the regimen her nutritionist had put her on, and she really wants to lose the weight (about 20 pounds), but she said her doctor told her she shouldn't lose weight because she is a diabetic!!! I MEAN!!! Unbelievable!
These are the so-called "experts" who advise against low-carb diets...

[skyspinner]

Originally posted by Scarlet
snip
Finally, I have to say I find Phil's comment (below) hilarious! It must be one of the stupidest attempt at logic I have ever heard of in my life! I mean has this guy heard of cooking, recipes or vegetables? :roll:

" Firstly, while butter and cream cheese and sour cream are permitted, you're not allowed to eat potatoes or bread. What in the world will you put the butter, cream cheese, and sour cream on?

This amused me very much! What an argument against low carb!

Yes, I giggled at that one, too. He must have a very limited idea of what to do w/ some of the most delicious diet foods around.

Say, is this "Phil" the "Dr. Phil" I see on TV lately? The one who looks as if his mother and father were too closely related? :lol:

[Lisa N]

" Firstly, while butter and cream cheese and sour cream are permitted, you're not allowed to eat potatoes or bread. What in the world will you put the butter, cream cheese, and sour cream on?"

Wow....he really has no sense of creativity in the kitchen, does he? I go through at least 2 lbs of butter a week and at least 1 container of sour cream just between cooking and veggies. Cream cheese isn't just for bagels, ya know, but I guess our poor deprived Dr. Phil has never heard of mock danish let alone tried one. Hee hee...he'd probably have a heart attack just thinking of eating something with that much fat in it. :lol:

[Claudia9]

The choice of name says it...this person is having fun pushing our buttons... I personally beleive in democracy and democracy of course implies that everyone can voice an opinion...its healthy to discuss things and to keep an open-mind also...what really makes me understand that Mr. or Mrs. Infuriator is out there to tease and push buttons is the fact that he/she does not comply to the directions given to make it easier to read on...he/she persists on adding the trails in front of his/her replies to our reactions...this persistance shows the typical personality of the annoying types...they thrive on doing everything to annoy people...I bet anything this person chooses to act like this in all his/her encounters with everyone in every situation of life...I forgive him/her for this childlike attitude and can only ask him/her to do what we are learning at university: please state your sources so we can also read them and make our own opinion on the matters you state...

Dear Infuriator, there was a time in humankind's history when people were burned alive for daring to even look for truths...you claim that you are on a quest for truth...well, so are we...and its fine...but, if we are to share our discoveries, can we make it in a non-judgemental, non-arrogant, self-righteous way...I am open to hear out all opinions, but I close up to arrogance and manipulation, and as I read your thread, I felt manipulated...I don't like that. I come to this forum to share information and feel supported in my own quest...Of course I could very well have ignored you and pass your thread. I chose to read you, just as I chose this way of life, and I hope you will choose to stay on your quest for truths while respecting other pilgrims on the quest...

But, you know what Infuriator, I'm not infuriated, simply amused by your visit here.

[Bright]

This bothersome little troll has pulled the same stunt on at least 3 other LC BBs. He got quite nasty on one board, so his IP was traced. Let's just say he's none of the things he claims to be except a bored little man who wastes his company's time and resources to play with his imaginary life.

Something his employer was very upset to hear about.

[lee]

Hate to burst the discussion originator's bubble, but this is just the same ol same ol biased diatribe.

Atkins defensive, huh? I recently heard Ornish on a South Florida radio show, and was so tickled to hear him sounding defensive. Yup, it's human nature, when people attack you, you defend. Now Ornish is having to defend the dieting advice he has given that helped turn Americans unhappily obese. One caller was strongly making the point that she is a nurse who followed Ornish's diet for a long time, unsuccessfully. She finally did Atkins, lost the weight and got healthier - she gave the details. Ornish refused to acknowledge what the lady said. Insisted she was not healthy!

Another thing, excuse ME, where's the connection between Rick's kidney stones and his dieting? I don't think kidney stones form that fast, do they? These great S. Fla. newspeople are part of a band of smart alecks that pass off attitude as "news". Yes, many people of small minds actually enjoy it. You won't hear any scientific knowledge from that crowd - just spouts of anything that seems popular.

[Scarlet]

The idea that this was supposed to be an argument against LC was what I found so amusing :D. I mean ppl don't refuse to do low fat just because it means veggies taste like grass with nothing on them does it ?!!

So he's trying to save our taste buds as well as our hearts and cholesterol and kidneys. This guy is so kind..........

[Bright]

Listen.
This guy, infuriator, doesn't care about the merits of any WOE; be it low fat, low cal, or LC. He’s not looking for information or a reasonable discussion. He is what's called a troll, an internet version of a spoiled, self-centered, attention-seeking brat. Trolls get off on starting fights, then sitting back and reading the agitation he causes and the attention he gets. This type of person isn’t on a crusade against any diet. Any argument that goes against a BB ideals will do. He’s the type that will go, for example, to a support BB for depression and post “research” that claims all depression is faked and any one who takes meds is an addict.

Please don’t give this creep any more attention.

[lee]

Bright is right. Classic energy vampirism, and we fell into his trap. He takes energy from others via the internet.

[Cheryl R]

I came from the first few posts in this thread right to the end... I can't believe their are 7 pages of responses to this... I'm only writting because it's the middle of the night...and I can't sleep and I'm bored. I slept to long last night.. ooops...

any hoooo.... Now that I think about it...why am I wasting my time...

6 weeks of low carb and I feel healthier and happier than I have been in years... I am no longer a slave to food!!!!

[drhaubi]

Hi Infurator,

I am a Vet and a PhD student in animal nutrition, and two years ago I did not even know about Atkins and Low-carbing, neither did my teachers!!!!
But I am scientist, and once I heard there was something called ketogenic diets I had to try them, on an animal?, NO! on me, of course, and they worked, so now I can say "I KNOW they work".
Most "nutritional scientists" have not even tried to find out, sad, very sad. Because of that I have lost much of my faith in the scientific institutions, in the Universities and in government programs.
So, after 3 years in a PhD, I can only tell you this, the biological explanation of the low-carb diets is perfectly sound, there are no clinical secondary-effects, your body is a magnificent machine that will re-learn how to live on the diets nature intended us to live on.

But do not listen to me, do not trust me, or anybody else, go on and find out for yourself:

Take the challenge, go into a low-carb diet yourself, stop reading and start experimenting, have fun, be the master of your life and stop selling your soul to the sugar and wheat cartel.

Your (only) friend here

drhaubi

[Wendye]

I think I have joined in too late - - where has the thread starter gone????


Infuriator (great name) obviously does not have a problem with carbs - and I don't think everyone has .... for those people Atkins would make no sense.

I feel great low carbing - I am obviously a carb sensitive type - probably from all the yo-yoing diets in my past .... I mean - we are not advocating NO CARBS - just LOW CARBS. Carbs make me feel bloated, heady and out of control.............I think we all have a magic number that we can tolerate - mine's about 25 - for some it is obviously much MUCH higher.

We are all different and as a personal trainer it's a pity our infuriator doesn't appreciate that fact. It's basic.

Bye for now -Keep well and Keep LC!! :thup:

[annalabeba]

to get your trills from coming to a website that you don't agree with is so weird, will be like me attending a kkk meeting, i don't get it, but I am sure he has reasons, maybe a hobbie will help. :read2:

[ReadyforLC]

Anna,

You know there are certain personalities that thrive on conflict. Some people just find more usuful purposes for it, some don't. He obviously hasn't.

keep LCing eveyone.

[annalabeba]

as far as me i couldnt be more grateful to Dr Atkins and this site, people that didn't know me when i gained the weight do not believe that i ever struggle with my weight, and i can wear all the cute clothes I want, and guess what else my health and overall attitude is great, so I guess it makes the people with no willpower to change upset to see that it works for us.

[anewlife]

I'm new to this forum, but I've been reading through the many stories. Yours is very interesting to me. I am 5'1 and weigh 185 llbs. I'm also following Atkins. I'm searching for someone who has been successful--like you. Would you be willing to share your story with me?
I have been following the atkins program for about 2 months. I have lost and gained the same 7 llbs over and over. I'm thinking of doing the "fat fast." The thing that keeps me hopeful is that for the first time in years, I don't crave sweets. This is big for me.
The thing I have against me is that I did the atkins diet already--a few years ago, lost the weight effortlessly--then went back to my old eating habits and gained it all back--plus some. Since then I've yo-yo dieted for 3 years.
I'm back to Atkins, but this time, if I succeed, I'm planning to stay with low carb way of eating for life.
If only I would have known that the second time around is a hundred times harder than the first time. I threw away that golden success. Now I have to work so much harder.
If you get this message, email me at sallyp241~hotmail.com

[SexySue]

There is also a journal board where you can watch everyones progress. Might be something worth checking out.

[smiley]

I eat tons of vegetables, lots of lean chicken,fish,red meat,
tons of water and enough salad to make a rabbit's head spin!!

What however, I no longer eat is: donuts, bagels,sugary cereal,junk food, fast food, icecream,cookies,pies,cakes........

So now, the only "fat"in my diet is pure butter and in moderation,bacon... which is way less fat than I was consuming eating the other ways!!

[andy]

I am new to all this and I am even more confused now that I have read Phils message.

[Karen]

Andy, every so often we have trolls posting anti-lowcarb stuff here just to get everyone all riled up. Infuriator who started the thread is one of those trolls.

If you read the first page or so of the thread, you'll see reasons why Phil Kaplan's claims are bogus.

All anti low carb information is moved to the War Zone Forum where we ask that claims are supported by studies - not opinions and articles - but actual medical studies.

Read the whole thread; I think you'll find it quite educational.

For support, it's best to stick to any forum but this one. On the other hand, false claims and lack of evidence by the opposing side will quickly illustrate that there is no argument. :D

Karen

[stephiewil]

I am new to this board and wouldn't you know it this would be one of the first threads I followed. I have to agree with annalabeba in that I do not understand why someone would go out of thier way to go and purposely seek out people who believe strongly in something, just to bash it. Kinda like joining a country club to tell people how stupid tennis and golf are. I just don't get it. It has to be for attention. You would truely have to be living in a cave to not know that the tide is turning and that low carb is getting a lot more respect. My husband and I have each had a medical doctor recommend low carb by name to us. I think after almost 30 years Dr Atkins has the right to feel pretty good about himself. Do people forget he was a practicing cardiologist himself? He does have some major medical background here, unlike this Phil guy I kept reading about. I truely feel sorry for people who have nothing better to do than go around trying to upset people, and actually joining thier boards to bash thier way of eating. Very very sad. At least it looks like he finally went away. Stephie :D

[swoozieq]

I'm new here too and chose to read the debate on this, my 2nd day at this forum. I am glad that I did because it really fortified my decision to do the Atkins WOL. With my doctor's gung-ho attitude regarding the Atkins approach, and with my new-found friends here at the forum, I am certain that I will not only loose weight, but improve my blood profile.

All of us here have recognized a need to loose weight. No matter how we got out of shape, we have all done our own research enough to convince us to try the LC approach. I have friends who think I'm nuts for doing the LC thing, but I think it's nuts to just sit back and continue eating the way that got me to this point of needing to change!

You guys are great! :thup:

[edie]

Good for you swoozieq for having your doctors full support to do Atkins. Some doctors aren't up to speed on this yet it seems.

Your right the forum keeps everybody on track and informed, and most importantly inspired!!


Good luck..........:angel:

[shannonlea]

I just read all the way back to infuriator's first comment.. knocking Dr. Atkins and all.. I was just amazed that someone with such knowledge as to what the proper solution to weight loss is .. Does not appear to be losing any weight~~ Look at infuriator's stats.. And look at those of us doing Atkins or any other low carb plan.. I was a skeptic at first,but I'm proof that this WOL works and I love it!! :wave:

[Lisa N]

Shannon...

Infuriator wasn't around long enough to update his stats, but if you look closely, he didn't have any weight to lose in the first place and he definitely wasn't following a low carb WOE. Some people just get their kicks causing conflict.

[DrByrnes]

"Infuriator" did mention that he had a degree in nutrition. He did not say from where, but most likely, it was the standard nutrition that is taught at the university level which, of course, pushes the Food Pyramid, the Lipid Hypothesis of heart disease, lots of grains, etc., etc. He might as well have told us he was a dietician!

In truth, all of the web resources he listed as debunking Atkins and other LC approaches are coming from the static perspective of the fossilized nutritionists. These people push all of the oft-repeated, but incorrect, mantras of nutrition:

1. Saturated fats are bad for you and cause heart disease;
2. Eating too much meat will cause kidney failure, kidney stones, and/or osteporosis;
3. Meat causes colon and other cancers;
4. Low-fat diets are healthy diets;
5. Eating lots of complex carbohydrates is good for your health,

blah, blah, blah.

These outdated thinkers cannot argue, however, with the fact that our ancestors thrived on a diet high in meat and animal fat and that the rise of chronic disease closely paralleled the rise of agriculture and the abandoning of animal foods for grains, legumes, and vegetables--the very diet hawked by the Food Pyramid. For those of you interested, you can read this excellent review article by one of the leading nutritional anthropologists of our time, Dr. H. Leon Abrams.

http://www.powerhealth.net/articles/requirementsforoptimalhealth.htm

[shannonlea]

I'm sorry I just don't get why a person would come to a low carb SUPPORT forum and judge or whatever. They have pro-anerexia sites on the net that I absolutely am against,but I would not go on their forum and tell them that they are doing it all wrong. But I guess everyone has their own opinion.. And the person who started this thread got what he wanted.. ATTENTION . From now on I'm not coming to the warzone because no point in even looking at anything which is insulting the way I am losing my weight. Good luck and God Bless :)

[Lisa N]

That's okay, Shannon. The War Zone isn't a place for everyone. It's here because we have people come here from time to time who want to "save" us from what they believe is an unhealthy way of eating which is fine as long as they are willing to back up their claims with research and studies, not opinion. The discussion/debate that ensues is often very educational and provides a lot of information that might otherwise be overlooked. Others just enjoy creating a row and the attention that it gets them.
Those who want to dispute that low carbing is healthy are directed to post any research and studies that they may have here for discussion.
Personally, I enjoy a good debate as long as it sticks to the facts and flames and insults are left out of it but not everyone finds that sort of thing enjoyable.

[deb_o]

I look into the war zone regularly because I enjoy the debating. I'm not good at it, but it makes good reading!

[dmvprof]

It appears that the attack is based on a charge that sales and marketing hype is what is driving this, not results. Kindof silly anyhow.

Besides,

Who makes money if I quit eating a lot of carbs? No one....

[Alexoc949]

The troll was good. I enjoyed him. It'd be nice if he came back and did a special appearance or something. You know, hollar at us. :spin:

[Ruthxxx]

You betcha! We could sell tickets!

[ebeth2210]

I'm new and just browsing the website, but I agree with the last post. This is better than soaps. :roll:

[lee]

Originally posted by dmvprof
Who makes money if I quit eating a lot of carbs? No one.... [/B]

Good point. And the rest of the story is that a hell of a lot of money is made selling cheap carb products (I'll not call them food). The packaging and advertising are the big costs. Everyone knows they are harmful, and it would behoove people to protest against junk food, instead of a diet that only makes us healthier.

[Cheryl R]

so... in a way infurator did us a favor. He got us fighting hard for what we believe in... Hey, if it works for me, it works for me.

I don't spend any money on this way of eating except for the food I buy... yum... good quality meats and veggies.

[elliebelly]

All can say to all this is THANKS INFURIATOR!!!!

I'm on my second day of Atkins and though I feel great and have lost weight already (!!!) I still had a lot of questions about it. A lot of fears and anxieties that it would be horrible for my health. Would I yo-yo? Would I get heart attack, kidney stones etc? Would this diet strip me of muscle mass??

Infuriator's post and the responses that followed did more to quiet my fear than anything out there. Infuriator was the boogy man who gave life to all the fears that I (and a lot of new members) had in the back of my mind. And the responses were like adults who turned on the light to show me my fears were unfounded.

I heard from doctors and nurses, people who had been on Atkins for years and remained healthy. I saw evidence, studies, explanation, so many things that made sense! I followed links and read more about why low carb works.

Though I'm still a little scared (bacon = heart attack has been imprinted into my subconscious) I'm feeling a lot more confident now. Because someone dared to question the validity of low-carb diets, I understand why it works better than ever before.

Someone in the thread said that this is a democracy, and essential in a democracy is the market of free ideas which should not be supressed. For only when we are faced with falsity do we fight to find the truth.

Ehm... okay I'm waxing poetic, sorry 'bout that. I'm just glad this happened. I recommend this thread to all anxious newbies like me!!!

--Elliebelly :roll:

[Kibbles]

I never thought in a million years i could find this much info on the LC way of life!!!!! I am so amazed at how educated everyone is on LC and all it's terms!! I personally have to pick up my book and look up stuff all the time. All you people are awsome!!! I knew I hit the jackpot with this forum!!!!! I take my hat off to you all, not only have you impressed me but made me feel safe in my choice to be apart of this great LC Family.

We all hear all the "its bad for you" CRAP!!! I am glad i don't have to hear it here !!

Thank you all for being so well informed!!! :wave: :yay:



Kibbles!!!!!

[eva123]

waow!

this certainly has been instructive...and dare I say, entertaining!
what a strong thread...although I am struggling to understand why someone would transform a sensible discussion into a real WarZone and resort to insults...I guess boredom..
But hey.... just know what it is you are following, do your research and be open to others'ideas.

Well done to everyone who commented on this thread.

At least, somepeople know how to keep their cool.

[Romans8]

Im fairly new to this site, and am just reading this thread for the first time.
I noticed that all this was going on last October.
One of you challenged this yahoo to put up the goods.
From that point on he writes nothing!
It is now March as I write this response.
I am so happy to have found the LC way of life, reading all of your empassioned responses just make me even more convinced that this IS the way to live!
Ya Baby! :thup: :bash: :yay:

[LoneInAz]

I read maybe the first two pages of this who discussion so pardon me if I missed anything relative, but there is NO ONE that is going to convince me that the weight I loss was a fad or dangerous or anything of that nature, in my opinion, carrying the weight of a whole other person around with me was hurting me far more than the supposed dangers of ketones... Sheesh, we must be getting to some of these low fat dieters for them to get that defensive. All I can say is, wanna compare stats? :D :D :D


Kindest Regards,

LoneInAz

[zandria72]

This paragraph makes sense to me though:

The lines drawn by Taubes and many other proponents of the "carbs are bad" dictum continuously position a low carb diet against, not a sensible balance of protein, complex carb,
fiber, and essential fat intake, but against meals including simple sugars and refined carbs, i.e. "Special K with low-fat milk, a glass of orange juice and toast." [argh!] How about comparing the Atkins-endorsed bacon and eggs breakfast to an egg white omelet with fresh spinach and mushrooms with a side of oatmeal? Whenever opposing camps contrast one end of the spectrum against the other, a complete ignorance for the middle ground emerges, and that's where the long term solutions for the masses can usually be found. Somewhere in between the two extremes.

http://philkaplan.com/thefitnesstruth/update_8_1_02.htm

I've also had nutrition classes (my degree is in exercise science), and I know the standard stuff. I think that LC has real merit, hence why I am here and why I am testing it on myself. However, I'd also caution against shutting yourself off from more information. Keep learning! Take everything you read with a grain of salt. Don't automatically be impressed with a book because a doctor wrote it. Scientific studies are the best way to go, but even those can be manipulated to some degree. It is easy to say "this is the one true way!" but I'm not so sure a one true way exists. Different strokes for different folks and all that. ;)

[Nutri-nut]

Zandria - I think your post is probably the most logically formulated that I've read on this subject. I was a VERY BIG skeptic of low-carb eating but continued to do research. I am testing it on myself now and have had a mixture of good and bad results so far.

I am not strictly following any specific diet plan but am using the information I've gleaned to alter my eating habits in a manner that is healthier and that works for me. My father tried the Atkins diet years ago and lost about 20 pounds. After talking to him, I learned that he didn't strictly follow "the plan" but still had results.

I'm concerned about those who adamantly proclaim that "no one could ever change their mind" about the benefits or detriments of how they are eating. Scientific information is constantly being changed and refined, so keeping an open mind is crucial.

[Isphet]

What an amusing and instructive thread! :) Until some 4 months ago I was the administrator of a Bulletin Board that had some million posts a month and, boy, were those infuriator types wearying. :( Low-selfesteem + immaturity + need for attention = weary administrator.

I used to be an Atkins critic (but fortunately not low a self-esteemed, immature or desperate for attention critic ;) ). What a fool I was. I changed my mind several months ago after reading some of the independent medical reports coming out and after hearing of several doctor acquaintances who approved of the programme.

So about 2 months ago I went on Atkins needing to lose weight when a 'healthy' eating style + exercise wasn't doing a thing (I don't drive, so everywhere I need to go I walk) and since then have seen massively positve results in both weight loss, overall healthy AND in blood work.

Fancy having infuriator as a personal trainer! :daze: One would get fit just trying to keep a healthy distance from him! ;)

[ieatmeat]

As I said in my other posts, this is a cult. Atkins is God. If Atkins says something, it must be true. Everyone else is a quack. I've participated in some stock "discussion" groups where only positive information was looked at as truth. That cost me a lot of money. I've learned my lesson.

Atkins offers a quick fix for a bad problem. How could that possibly be wrong? Wake up, people!

[Alina]

Originally posted by ieatmeat
As I said in my other posts, this is a cult. Atkins is God. If Atkins says something, it must be true.

Atkins offers a quick fix for a bad problem. How could that possibly be wrong? Wake up, people!

I have rest my case in your original thread and I'm not getting into a discussion with you. I will not come back to this thread but I want you to know this before I'm gone:

- I could feel sorry for you but you do that job perfectly yourself.

- If you want to hurt me you better come here and hit me *, this will not do at all.

*caution, I'm 8th Kyu*

Alina

[ieatmeat]

Alina,

Why would you think that I want to hurt you??? Did I ever wish for anything bad to happen to you? I simply stated the truth. If truth hurts, you may have some unresolved issues. Are you taking Karate to hurt people? If so, you have even more unresolved issues.

[Morgan1974]

Originally posted by infuriator
A support forum? How about the truth? It is amusing to see Atkins people being totally obliterated from the truth unless Atkins says it.
The Atkins Diet is unhealthy and I have posted enough to back it up and I have plenty more where that came from.
The formula to weight management is exercise and a diet containing all the energy nutrients and not fad diets.

Infuriator...

For the life of me, I can't understand why someone would join this site just to knock Dr. Atkins and harrass posters. If you don't trust or believe Dr. Atkins or LC diets....don't do them. I don't remember hunting you down and insisting you follow this plan or any other. If you don't mind wasting YOUR time with this foolishness, then by all means continue. However, please take it to another forum and stop wasting OURS !

Thank you :wave:

[CAINNE]

Dr. Phil just seems to be selling his own diet. I think he is a bit swayed by that fact and not a "honest" researcher.
Anyone who has to say " I was doing this..., honestly" is just trying to justify to himself he is right.

[di52]

Moderator Edit:

Please no insults.

[lee]

IEATMEAT,

We have come up with a different opinion than you, having taken in ALL the evidence. That's all. Go ahead and disagree.

Even call us a "cult". ha ha. Quite funny.