Is there a 'max' calories too?

[PJ in Miam]

I hope this isn't a stupid question. I've read enough books and boards I probably should know this, but pondering my planning spreadsheet last night, I realized I didn't...

In order to make my goal of 140-170g protein per day (sheesh!) --and stay under 30 ecc as I'll be in induction for a long time --

-- and do this in about 6 semi-equal meals, and use ingredients I can bulk cook, or make stuff where for every meal I have another as a leftover, use recipes that will use the perishables I buy, or the other dozen things important if refrigerator space, money for food, and time for cooking are at a premium --

-- my daily plan options vary from 2400-2700 calories. Now given I weigh around 400 that doesn't seem extreme, but then there's Atkins Ctr suggesting one not exceed 1800, and others suggesting that the easy "10x weight" be calculated on LBM not overall weight.

It has taken me long days of real work to come up with the planning I have so far, so I'm not changing it unless the calories really are a major problem.

If I ever get past induction, I could eat more veggies (for variety in my diet, the carbs prohibit more than a salad every other day or a tiny amount of veggie "in" something), that would take down the calories I'm sure.

Previously I had a problem getting *enough* calories, but that was when I was subsisting dominantly on protein shakes. :-) To show you how much I enjoyed them and how much I abused them, they are nowhere on my current eating plans....

PJ

[Sherry B]

no. There isn't a "max" calories. You should eat as your body dictates to you. Protein has a certain aspect to it that your body only can really tolerate so much of it in one day. You'll find that point I'm sure. You'll know when you've hit it because you won't want any more food beyond that point. At least no more protein.

You should have a salad every day even on induction. It help to keep you regular. You need that fiber.

It sounds like you are way over planning. This isn't rocket science, and you don't have to be so precise on everything. Protein when you are hungry and a salad every day. What is so hard or complicated?

At your weight you will probably drop weight like crazy if you just stick to those basic guidelines.

Eventually you may reach a stall, but you don't need to worry about that yet. For me, I reached it about 8 months into the diet. What I found after that point is that although I continued to lose inches, I didn't lose much additional weight. I figure the inches lost came from losing fat, and hanging onto and maybe increasing muscle due to the increased protein.

My stall seems to have had to do with too few calories, but I'm not certain of that. Anyway to answer your question, no you don't have to watch calories. Your body's hunger should dictate to you what you need. If you find your body hunger slips so low that you stall you may need to force yourself to increase calories, but you have plenty of time to worry about "tweaking" the diet for yourself. Right now just get started and see how it goes.

[PJ in Miam]

Thanks Sherry, that helps.

I did a 3week trial of LC eating in January, just to see if it was workable for me and had any effect. It was great. But the thing I most learned was that I flat out needed to plan.

Lack of adequate planning meant I didn't have the ingredients I needed half the time. Or I had them, went to use them, and discovered they'd expired or gone bad (sheesh, nearly everything is perishable on this eating plan!).

Or as I didn't plan, I didn't have time to cook a meal, let alone the concept of eating 5-6 times (smaller) per day. And as I wasn't cooking, I also wasn't having multiple servings to use as leftovers for other meals or snacks.

Or I thought I was doing okay on a day, but found I went past allowed carbs on something I didn't expect.

Or worst, I'd need to buy something but then not have funds (I work for myself, and tend to be rich or poor, one extreme or the other, my money is very much JIT alas -- usually when I get it, I end up sending it to my ex- so he can come visit his kid, or something like that [sigh!]).

If it wasn't one thing, it was another.

Lack of planning greatly contributed to my not eating when I should have (often went most the day without eating -- 'eating when I'm hungry' means I'd eat once a day at about 8pm, as that is what my body is trained for), or eating junk when I did (I mean LC junk, like nuked pepperoni or protein shakes far too often instead of 'real food').

Although I HAD planned it only for three weeks as a trial, along the way I'd been thinking, if it was really working, I wouldn't do just a trial, I'd stay on it.

I realized that lack of organization, planning, finding time, etc. etc. were partly psychological issues. In many ways I was making it IMpossible for myself. Not by eating the wrong things but by being too disorganized to do things right, and then being frustrated about it.

I'd work my butt off to come up with something, anything, I could eat and force it down my throat -- as I've zero desire to eat much of anything frankly (I gain far more weight from not eating than from eating) -- only to find at end of day when I collected and posted my stats in a forum here, that I had blown it in one of a dozen ways (as the helpful people there pointed out :-)). I would be so hacked that I hadn't planned well, come up with recipes I liked and that had the right counts, known to get those ingredients, and to make that time, and so forth.

I apologized to the forum, including my mentor at the time, explained I clearly needed to work out some psychology in regards to being ready to do it, and pulled out. I've stopped in to read now and then since, but not posted since I wasn't on the plan. I've been "thinking about" it for 9 months now, and a couple weeks ago I finally realized, "OK. I'm ready now." I don't know what I was waiting for -- just some lightswitch in my psychology that said OK, I've integrated it all now, the idea is cool with me, and it's time to get with it.

Some people do much better when they don't think about things. I'm a worrier sort, so with my personality, the way I don't think about something is when it's already planned out. (I'm a project manager by trade, in a variety of professions, no surprise.) I will vary within that, once I'm there, but planning helps me a lot. I know some people, worrying about a detail or numbers drives them nuts. Me, planning makes me more comfortable, not less. Go figure. I'm a Virgo x4 and a little obsessive on the organization aspect anyway.

But I've had a lot of time to think. What my 3 weeks of LC did was mostly stress me out that it was never working out like I planned. I got healthier, lost a little weight, and felt better, but it was SUCH a pain in the butt. I joked to friends it was like trying to be Amish in New York or something. Like it was just so complicated. In reality, it is NOT complicated -- quite the contrary in fact. But, it does require some planning, shopping, cooking, and being aware of the food values -- at least for me it does.

Once one has been doing it awhile I'm sure the knowledge of food values makes it easy to 'wing it' based on what sounds good. Until I'm clear on such basics though, planning helps.

I am not able to just eat meat all day. Nor am I able to eat the same thing all the time. I am weirdly finicky; I will starve (literally) before I eat something I don't like. I've fasted for days before because I didn't "feel like" eating the foods I had and didn't have money. I will simply NOT eat if I don't have stuff that I like around. I know that about myself, and I want this eating plan to work for me permanently, so coming up with recipes -- which means coming up with nutrient counts -- is something I need.

I likely won't be so picky about exact numbers in doing it, but since I have time to try and plan it well, why not.

I'm waiting on funds to begin a shopping trip for a renewed LC permanent WOL, crazy over the delay, so in the meantime, I am keeping myself focused and encouraged by reading and posting here again, working on drinking enough water, and beginning some weight lifting and things like that. I'm eating vastly better anyway but not fully LC yet as I haven't got the stuff.

Planning is letting me work out 'cycles of days' (6) where I can:

(a) use the ingredients I've purchased, so they don't rot;

(b) have a maximum of 'leftovers' so my prep time for myself per week is cut nearly in half (a big deal on this, as my time is severely limited and my main problem in this eating plan);

(c) do some crockpot "bulk cooking" of meats like beef and chicken that I can use (often shredded) in a variety of dishes the rest of the week;

and

(d) have some existing references for 'meal ideas for a day' that are somewhere near my nutrition goals -- and a folder of recipes and nutrient counts that will let me be more spontaneous with what I've got yet still be reasonably on target.

I am building a small shrine to Karen in the corner. LOL.

I realize that a few extra carbs or not quite enough protein is not going to kill me, and given my weight, I ought to lose some weight anyway. Thanks for reminding me. I realize that.

But I'm trying to plan something for my PSYCHOLOGY as much as for my body. For ever, not just for now. Something my brain is comfortable with, sees the endless variety of options for, gets a hankering for experimenting with, etc. I want to feel comfortable that I have LOTS of options that are appropriate.

Before I started planning several days ago, I had very few ideas for reasonable meals I would eat beyond the mock chicken fried rice. Thanks to planning though, I now have worked out lots of recipes that sound yummy, that will make at least 2 servings so I've got a leftover meal, and that use the same general ingredients, to make my shopping economical, and some bulk-cooking practical.

Well that was a helluva lot more than you could possibly have wanted to hear, LOL, sorry about that.

PJ

[Shark01]

PJ,
First of all, you must be a great typist :lol:

The ultimate answer is that the mantra of LC diets is that you don't have to be concerned with counting calories.........and they're absolutely correct, I've lost 32.5 lbs in 5 months without counting calorie 1.

There really isn't a magic minumum or maximum calorie level. the "10X" junk certain people push (almost maniacally) is just rediculous. There's NO way I can lose anything eating 3300 calories a day (I know this from previous un-successful diets).

My advice is to stop all the calculus-level planning, and let the program take care of itself. For the first couple of weeks you will be eating pretty much the same amount of food you used to.......then about week 3, your cravings will stop....your insulin will become level, the stomach will shrink, you will eat less naturally, and the diet will become second nature. Your body will tell you when to eat, and when to stop.......it's an incredible experience :)

[PJ in Miam]

Sounds like a novel experience! (Yeah. I type about 120wpm.) My normal state is not eating at all, until night, and that only happens if I'm not distracted by something else. I'm so focused mentally that usually, whatever I am doing, I am utterly absorbed in. If it weren't for having a small child (Rykah, she is 6) I would probably be tuned out of the world entirely. :-)

Thanks for the good words.

PJ

[Sherry B]

First off you're obsessing way too much. Sure planning helps, but like I said it isn't rocket science.

Let me tell you what I do since I'm the opposite of you and NOT that much of a planner. I refuse to eat rice, grain products, corn, potatoes, dried beans or anything with sugar in it when I'm low carbing. Nearly everything else is allowed.

How much simpler can you get? Meats, veggys, cheese, butter, sour cream, and all sorts of sugar free junk is allowed. Yes you are right that most of the foods on this way of eating are perishible. Some people I know have actually cooked hamburger and then frozen it. When they need something fast it goes into the microwave.

I have bought meat and then vacuum sealed it and kept it in the refrigerator. It keeps longer that way. Veggys? Well I like mine fresh, and you are right they don't have a long shelf life. So you have to cook them.

People on this diet eat fast food, they just throw away the bread. It doesn't have to be so complicated that you are afraid to even start. It is really a simple concept. Eat meat and vegetables. If you obsess too much about carb counts etc, you are stressing it out too much. You can lose at 50 or 60 carbs a day, it won't kill the diet if you go a little too high to be in "induction".

Relax a little. Start the diet and just make sure you eat on a regular basis. Since you like to plan do this. Buy some roast, slice it up really thin (raw), marinate it in some soy sauce and then dry it and make some beef jerky. That way when you are hungry throughout the day you have something handy you can grab and eat without waiting to "cook" it.

Do give up on the one meal a day thing. Really do give that up. That is what got you fat in the first place. Slowing your metabolism down like that is really bad. I've done it too, and have had to break myself of the habit of not eating often enough or of skipping too many meals. The most successful dieters eat breakfast I read somewhere, and they don't eat late at night when they are ravenous because of not eating all day.

I wouldn't worry about too many suggestions from too many people. If you were losing? Hell why argue with success? Some people will tell you you shouldn't do this or that, but if what you are doing is working for you stick to it until it DOESN'T work anymore then you can start looking at their suggestions to see if they are right.

It is different to not eat carbs, but your comparison is rather silly. You can invite people over, feed them an entirely low carb meal and they probably wouldn't even notice. It is NOT as different as being Amish. That they probably would notice (lol).

Anyway it sounds to me like you are afraid of low carbing. You are making it a huge deal in your mind when it doesn't have to be. I was the same way about starting Body for Life. I was afraid of it. Afraid to fail, afraid I would be taking on more than I could handle. Once I started I realized that it wasn't THAT scary.

Relax, you can do this thing, plenty have before you and plenty will after you. RELAX. It is ok. REally it is.

[orchidday]

Hi PJ :)

I look forward to seeing your posts as you move along. I also work for myself and I am waiting for a darned check that should have been here last week. Ugh.

Like Sherry and Shark, I don't count calories. It is important not to overeat but the chemical balance you find in LCing is what you are really aiming for.

Have you done the kitchen cleaning yet? When we started LCing, we cleaned out everything in our kitchen that wasn't low carb and gave it to a food bank. Wow that hurt - all that money just gone. Now, you could not find anything in this house that couldn't be used in Atkins. I live in Orlando so needless to say we have company fairly often. We just cook low carb meals and I don't think anyone notices. When my daughter was here for two weeks we bought her a loaf of bread, some crackers, and some regular pepsi. Other than that, she ate exactly what we did and never noticed.

I identified with your posting and understand where you are coming from regarding being obsessive and organized with this. But alas, this has been my undoing when I dieted in the past. Because sure as heck, someday you will be sick, too busy, out of town, etc. and you just cannot keep the planning up. So now, I refuse to right anything down or figure things out. I plan on LCing when I am 80 so no reason to be a nut about it now!

I would caution you about staying in induction too long. I have been on this for two months now and gave up induction after the first week. It is just too boring for words. I had intended to stay on induction until I was within 30 pounds of my goal weight. But I would rather lose more slowly and enjoy my food more. And NOT think about it a lot. Hang in there and let us know how you do! Cindi :roll:

[Victoria]

PJ,
RELAX! It's really not that hard. Some people use fitday.com to log in what they eat, so they can figure out how much fat, carbs, protein...and calories. But I'm still not too clear how many calories is OK for very overweight people. I couldn't eat 3000 calories if I tried. When I started I did like Sherry...I cut out sugar, potatoes, corn, and rice. I bought low carb bread and then lived my life. If I was making Tacos for the family...I just had a Taco Salad. And I eat 2 salads every day. This is not a meat, cheese and egg diet. That doesn't even seem healthy to me. I allow myself a piece of fruit several times a week. Not every day. I'll make Spaghetti for the kids and eat the meat and sauce with a salad. So....It is easy. Mainly, mainly eat whole foods: Eggs, cheese, meat, tuna, salmon, broccoli, lettuce, celery, cream cheese, tomatoes, vegies...just not the high carb ones. I even eat baby carrots every so often. Just a few. So I think it's important to be balanced. It really is easy.

There are times when our groceries get low and I eat tuna, salad and eggs for the day. You work with what you have. I rarely can afford steak. I have 4 kids. I am NOT a dieter, but this works. Just get started. :roll: Victoria