Musings on Carb Addiction

[Karen]

The post, “tell me more about stalls Doreen & others” got me to thinking...

The following blah, blah about eating low-carb substitutes for high-carb food is from my experience with being a die-hard addict.

When you think about or eat substitutes, your body goes through the same physiological process as if you were eating or thinking about the “real thing”. Anticipation, a little insulin is released, you eat and your body goes through its programmed paces. Your body is programmed behave this way. You cannot stop it. The carbs are low but it’s too late! Insulin has already done its work.

If you have depended upon carbs in the past to see you through difficult or happy times, or any times at all, depending upon or the overuse of “legal treats” has you substituting one addiction for another. The cycle is never broken. If you can stick with “whole food” low-carb, you will break the physical cycle of carb dependency. As for the psychological, well that’s a whole other ball game.

Just musings here, but it is definitely true for me. YMMV.

Karen

[doreen T]

Karen, I deleted a previous reply I had posted to this. It was little more than a long-winded rant, and all I did was agree and expand on your ruminations. I think your words are accurate and eloquent enough for folks to do that on their own.

Just wanted to say thanks for your wisdom and insight. I need it, and look forward to it each and every day.

And, I don't think your words are blah, blah, blah. Yada-yada, or blurb maybe --- but blah???? Don't think so .. ;)

love from Doreen

[Karen]

Thanks so much Doreen!

Carb addiction is something I think about everyday and I like to talk about it too, hoping it might ring true for someone else.

Ditto on your posts. I learn so much from you and you say it so well. I'm a sucker for a swell turn of phrase.

I'd like to hear your expansions and rantings. It would probably help me!

How about blurb, blurb blurb instead of blah, blah, blah?;)

XO

Karen

P.S. I don't remember who said "the unexamined life is not worth living", but I say it to myself frequently. Great words to live by!

[nrussell]

Hi Karen

Thanks for the response, I had a horrible feeling that the hard word was coming but of course you are quite right. If you're right off sweets, you're never liable to fall off the wagon because they'll no longer hold any appeal.

Are there any articles linking or on this site, explaining more about the 'insulin' reaction to legal treats??

Also I looked up your recipe page and they are superb. I cant wait to make some.

However I found out today (after various episodes since beginning Atkins) that I have gallstones on top of everything else. I love meat and cheese and assume that they're out the picture now. Do you know anything about it and what's good to eat?? I presume fish and chicken so is it time to introduce pretend breads (nutless?) and things?? Presume others here must have gallstones and have some experience modifying the diet.

Also will I still lose if I undertake a low fat, low carb, high protein diet or will it be slower?

Thanks for your help.

Nicola

[doreen T]

hi Nicola,

Don't know if you had the chance to read my reply to your previous post about CCL and stalling (?) ... I'll try to address the gallstone problem here, though .. :)

First, obesity itself is a risk factor, as you know. Also, rapid weight loss can aggravate an already present gallbladder disease, usually from very low calorie, lowFAT diets. I have heard anecdotally that extremely lowFAT dieting (less than 20% of total calories from fat) will trigger gallstones --- in fact, two of my nursing colleagues who lost over 50 lbs. each developed gallstones requiring surgery within 6 months of losing their weight on a lowfat diet.

Here's what happens - the gallbladder is basically just a storage receptacle for bile, which is produced in the liver. When fat is eaten and reaches the small intestine, the gallbladder responds by contracting -- "squirting" the bile through the bile duct into the intestine to digest the fat. It's estimated that nearly 40% of us have some gallstones, but they're so tiny that they're easily flushed out with the force of the contraction or "squirt". If the diet is very low FAT, not a lot of bile is required, and the gallbag doesn't have to contract very much. This allows the acids, sterols and minerals in the bile to "pool", thus providing opportunity for the tiny, microscopic debris to accumulate and form into bigger stones. And then one day, some fat is eaten and the gallbladder tries to contract, and it can't because there's a stone lodged in there somewhere, and YEOWWWCH, pain results. Or worse scenario, the stone is freed and gets squirted into the bile duct, which then becomes blocked, and even more Pain & Agony results, as well as the risk of the bile duct rupturing, which is very serious indeed!

Now, I'm not a doctor, just a nurse, so you need to follow your physicians advice. But some general recommendations are - Lose your weight gradually and steadily; aim for losses of no more than 1 or 2 lbs a week. In other words, keep to the upper limits of your CCL.

Eat some fat. The best thing would be to eat smaller meals, more frequently, to avoid a big load on the gallbladder. Try to avoid meals and snacks that are just carb only -- ie, have some meat or cheese with your lowcarb fruit, or some full-fat yogurt (sugar-free, of course). If you choose to eat lowcarb muffins, bread and the like, ALWAYS eat it with some fat-containing protein. If you eat a meal or snack without some fat in it, the gallbladder won't contract and flush itself out.

Your query about avoiding saturated fat is a good one. It would be better to eat less animal fat overall, choosing fish, fowl, eggs, tofu, etc more often, and red meats, cheese and cream less often. However, adding essential Omega-3 fatty acids in the form of flax or fish oils would be beneficial, and in my opinion, therapeutic for inhibiting the production of gallstones. Also olive oil, avocados, and nuts (but not peanuts, which are a legume) are highest in monounsaturates, which will have a beneficial effect on bile and cholesterol production.On the subject of insulin-response triggered by eating artificially sweetened "legal" treats, I believe the Hellers have some comments in their "Carbohydrate Addicts" books. I think the response is indirect, in that eating a sweet-tasting food causes certain EMOTIONAL triggers, which lead to surges in neuro-hormones like serotonin, endorphins, etc..... and this sets up a cascade of physical events in the body -- like an adrenalin "rush", and this is what stimulates insulin.

Anyway, hope this helps .. :)

Doreen

[tamarian]

Originally posted by doreen T
[list=1] Lose your weight gradually and steadily; aim for losses of no more than 1 or 2 lbs a week. In other words, keep to the upper limits of your CCL.


Great post Doreen, as usual :)

One comment I have on the gradual weight loss is in regards to what is "gradual". 2 lbs for a 100 lbs person may be a lot, while for a 400 lbs person it would be very moderate. I would say 1-2% is more accurate in defining gradual weight loss.

Wa'il

[doreen T]

Right you are Wa'il, thanks. In this case, since Nicola has indicated she already has gallstones, it would be best for her and others in similar situation to stick to the LOWER rate of loss, or 1% as you indicated. As opposed to "gradual" loss for someone who has no gallbladder pathology.

I guess I should have made that clearer in my post... :o

Doreen

[Karen]

Thanks Nicola!

Doreen has covered your question excellently. I never knew that was how a gall bladder worked.:eek:

I would give Protein Power a read. It's a great book. Explains stuff clearly and has chapters on motivation and menu suggestions. You can eat a bit of fruit, "lite" breads, etc. Still low carb, but not quite as hard core as Atkins.

Karen

[nrussell]

Thanks all once again.

As usual heaps more info than from the Doctor's brief run down. Particularly the differentiation between Saturated and Unsaturated Fats as he just said Fats and I was wondering how I was going to cope without even nuts.

Losing weight rapidly definitely does play a part (35lbs in a little under 4 weeks) but in hindsight I'm sure I've had them for some time and have put the other very occassional (less violent ) attacks down to some strange form of indigestion. It has probably been aggravated by all the meat and cheese and the weight loss. Sad to have to slow it down but it makes the diet even easier (more carbs) and in any event, like you have previously said, its not a diet but a permanent thing so if it takes time, I have plenty of time to do it in. Anyway I'm sure life is much nicer with rather than without a gallbladder.

Also in a backward way, its proof that the diet has been working!!Also they checked all my bloods to be sure it wasnt a heart problem and whilst not specific, he said I had no risk factors. I take this to mean that the bloods were fine (and they never have been for the last five years) and my blood pressure is now lower than what it was when I was a lot younger and at my correct weight. Dont let anybody say this woe doesnt work (at least not for nearly everyone). I am now waiting on my repeat GTT and I'm expecting a dramatic improvement there as well!

Once again thanks for the advice, I'm off shopping for a range of culinary accessories and as we have great fish here, off to make some of Karen's wonderful fish dishes!!

Nicola:cool:

[jan082001]

Karen,

I appreciated the eloquent way you expressed yourself regarding substitutes, in my case, substitutes for sugar.

It helps me to read of other people's experiences with the substances which, for myself, have and always will be addictive for me. Reading of your experiences helps me to stay on course.

Thanks,

jan

[razzle]

Karen, I really appreciate all your messages about carb addiction. I also appreciate how calm and steady and kind you are in giving that message (I recall a post where you kept at it, very nicely, trying to get people to see this problem through the addiction lens). For me, I may have said 'sugar addict" and "flour addict" last year in a half-joking way, just using the terms because there was nothing more convenient...but these past couple of months (really the time after my lapse back into full-fledged carb abuse), I have begun to understand the truth of saying "carb addiction"--it's physiological and psychological and every bit as serious as a cocaine addiction (if cheaper--lol). I'm not saying everyone reading this board suffers from it, but I surely do, and I feel I'm making great strides in dealing with it as such. I can hardly believe I can say this now, but I'm suddenly grateful for my lifelong weight problem, because it is hating being fat (in a world where fat women are so hated) that finally led me to think about carb addiction, and getting off carbs then struggling to stay off that finally made me understand that in one sense, the addiction is just the symptom. A lifetime of self-medication with carbs is finally turning around, and I'm amazed at the self-discovery that has been part of it.

Enough babbling about me--this started off as a thank you to Karen!

Oh, and it was Socrates who said it. ;)

[rustpot]

Karen

"When you think about or eat substitutes, your body goes through the same physiological process as if you were eating or thinking about the “real thing”. "


You slightly worried me that just thinking about food can affect my metabolism.

Please tell me that effect is minimal. I have just been thinking about a a giant pizza and dough balls followed by a creme brulee and a few petit fours with a glass of port. I must have put on a few pounds at least :lol:

More seriously there is a post from me on the health threads about my own gallbladder experience and others. Not sure how to connect these two threads.

[Karen]

You slightly worried me that just thinking about food can affect my metabolism.

Not necessarily. My musings were mostly on me and what can potentially happen to other addicts. If I think about a big bowl of ice cream and get all dewy eyed about it, or eat artificial sweeteners, my body goes through the same paces as if I had actually eaten sugar. It's something I discovered through self observation, and listening to others on the board. For me AS are low-carb methadone, but YMMV.

nrussel started on one subject and moved into speaking of her own gall-bladder attack. The two were unrelated and Doreen gave the ins-and outs of why it can happen after switching from low fat to low carb.

Karen

[rustpot]

Karen,

As ever your musings are thought provoking. I hope you did not mind the light hearted comment.

[doreen T]

The original thread that Karen was referring to, Tell me more about stalls Doreen & others (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?postid=20569#post20569) was originally posted back in April 2001. The member was pondering over the meaning of stalls, and the body's metabolism slowing over time as weight is lost and how it responds to carbs and sugar.

It's worthwhile reading that thread again, especially for someone who's worried about stalling and looking for ways to overcome it.

Doreen

[Karen]

As ever your musings are thought provoking. I hope you did not mind the light hearted comment.


LOL! Not at all rust! but you did sound worried, so I gave you a serious answer!

Karen

[TammyD]

Wow,
I'm way over here on the other coast and we think about the same things…In my mind, when I think about… or see, or smell good food (yes protein too, a nice leg lamb roasting…ummmm) anyway I digress. My body (efficient little food storage system that it is) probably does squirt out some insulin. Now while that insulin is hanging around, it sets off a craving and the pre programmed response of eating…In the short run…If you don't eat, hopefully the insulin won't store any fat. But in the long run my idea is to re-program my brain…when I see or smell or whatever food that gives me that insulin response my brain gets a 1/2 piece of sugar-free gum…Hee hee can I be fooled that easily?
We'll see.

[Karen]

I would be wary about falling into a bad habit with SF gum. If you feed your brain sweets, it will expect sweets whenever it felt the "reaction". If you gave it a piece of celery or a chicken wing, it would probably shut up eventually because it doesn't get the reward it expects.

Karen

[Lessara]

I was curious. What things have you found that starts the carb longing in you? I find Dairy products and jello does that for me. I can't eat even a Carbolite chocolate without wanting to eat more and more. I can't even eat part of a dairy desert (cheesecake for example) without wanting the whole thing. You would think I was starving!
Am I right to think this addition does in fact never go away?
Is there any way to reduce the lure?
Thanks.
I feel so good on the LC but every time I go nuts with low carb choices I feel down and it throws my body into a loop.
Thanks again.

[EmyAmber]

I am SO grateful that there are products I can have that give me a sense of not being deprived, yet don't set off cravings. I'm not sure I could do this otherwise.

I have a history of being a compulsive overeater, used to self injure, overdose on meds, have attempted suicide several times.

I used to also take laxatives when I was younger to try and 'lose weight'.

The way I eat now is a TREMENDOUS freedom from the cycle of contant obsession with food.

Now if I eat certain things they will trigger me, but I do just great with my Da Vinci sugar free syrups on top of a Low Carb Waffle, or on top of yogurt. I just had some low carb chocolate pudding with whipped cream, the thing I am learning is not to overdo, and that I can have SOME of these things, some times.

I do very very well with zero carb jello with celery, in fact, at times when I wanted to eat MORE after a meal, by eating the jello I felt satisfied, not deprived, and that I didn't have to be deprived of anything that had a sweet taste.

Now I find the bars to be not only TERRIBLE tasting, but I don't feel good on them. Sometimes I'm tempted to get a low carb chocolate bar, but I KNOW they raise my bg levels (I'm diabetic) and that the labels lie-they have FAR more carbs then are listed.

So I think it's a matter of personally working out what WORKS for each person.

After a lifetime of suffering from yo yo dieting, feeling guilty for eating foods that I was addcited to, one of my 'drugs of choice', I'm sure not going to feel guilty for having what 'legal sweets' that work for me. And I keep an eye on the bg levels, and am presently keeping the carbs between 25-30. I learned that you can't LIVE on the sweets, but I needed to go through that phase, as well as some others. That's just how it is for me....

From Emy

[Karen]

I was curious. What things have you found that starts the carb longing in you?

Anything creamy and sweet. Ice cream was my "thing" in my former life!

Karen

[offdawagon]

My own carb addiction is extremely sensitive. If it tastes sweet, I react to it. That includes anything with aspartame or saccharin, be it gum or soft drinks or "low carb" bars. My brain can't tell the difference between real sugar and the alternatives. And to address Lessara's question as to whether the addiction ever goes away...I would have to say no. No more than a diabetic can "cure" diabetes by controlling their blood sugar levels. If the diabetic strays from their program, their glucose levels will shoot back up. If the carb addict gives in to the cravings, no matter how long you have been controlling them, the cravings can overtake you. This I know from experience, unfortunately. I always think about a phrase I heard in reference to alcoholism..."There is no such thing as just one drink for an alcoholic." I feel the same thing is true for carb addicts...me, at least.

[Karen]

Yes. The only "cure" for addiction is abstinence!

Karen

[Lessara]

From Saturday (3/9/02) no more sweets. no diet soda or cream cheese desserts. I'm doing to lick this carb addition! :cool:

[offdawagon]

Good Luck in your battle against the addiction! I know how tough it is...my husband and I were cheering today because I haven't had anything sweet today or yesterday, even though they're quite allowed on CALP. It's just important to me to get it out of my head that my reward meal SHOULD have my beloved/dreaded sweets incorporated. I especially encourage you on your decision to stay away from diet drinks. It is my personal feeling that artificial sweeteners really aren't good for us at all. And to your brain, a sweet is a sweet..there's no distinction between real sugar and synthetic. Take care and be well!!!


:cheer:

[Lessara]

This is my third day and I have had few if any problems. I know its not going to be easy like this for the next few days. Since I'm big it would take a while for all the carbs to leave my body.
But I have low-carb snacks to help me during those hard times.
I found I don't mind my one cup of coffee, with a little cream, without sweetner like I thought I would. But one is definitly the limit!

[ryple]

Originally posted by Karen


P.S. I don't remember who said "the unexamined life is not worth living", but I say it to myself frequently. Great words to live by!

A Google search tells me your quote emanates from Socrates.
Just thought I'd add it. (I'm probably coming late to the dialogue, ten other people have probably already said it, sorry.

[ryple]

Originally posted by razzle
I can hardly believe I can say this now, but I'm suddenly grateful for my lifelong weight problem, because it is hating being fat (in a world where fat women are so hated) that finally led me to think about carb addiction, and getting off carbs then struggling to stay off that finally made me understand that in one sense, the addiction is just the symptom. A lifetime of self-medication with carbs is finally turning around, and I'm amazed at the self-discovery that has cime with it.

All the people on this board are so insightful! Now if I can just get someone to reply to a post! (?) I'm in need of support. A brownie calls my name like a siren's song, and my resolve to resist is frequently absent. I rationalize, say I'll start induction in earnest TOMORROW! HeLP! I started the more severe KISS form yesterday, for about 4 hours before deciding I couldn't go cold turkey on the AS's and dairy just yet, I'd start with the carbs first.
Today I succumbed to a butterfinger easter egg, (23carbs) and felt like I could recover. Now I'm eating Peanut butter, which ordinarily would be OK, but I more than spent my 20 carbs today, so, on day 2, I'm already slipping. (before I backspaced, I had typed slopping, I think that was more accurate!) How can I get the resolve to cut out the dairy and AS, I'm such a sweets junkie!!!! ??? I never imagined what an emotional eater I was!~

Someone come to my rescue!

[offdawagon]

:lol: at "slopping"!!! I do know what you're talking about! Carb addiction is a powerful entity, and I have a long history of addiction, recovery, "slopping", and now, thankfully, re-recovery. I am using a different program than yours, but our problem is the same. The CALP book, which is my bible, says that in the beginning, not to worry so much about the AS. Some people simply cannot cold turkey. It's not your fault. It's just a driving need your body speaks very loudly to. The Drs. Heller suggest that you get a grip on the other carb rich foods and get your insulin under control. This will then give you a better platform from which to launch your assault on your other "no-no" food items. I personally, cannot and do not use AS in any form, as even a piece of sugar free gum outside my "reward meal" sends me into orbit. Be patient with yourself and your resolve will grow with your knowledge. Keep reading...anything you can on LC and carb addiction. Understanding the process your body goes through every time you consume "sweet" or carb rich foods is a huge incentive to avoid those foods. Take care and be well!!

:wave:

[razzle]

ryple, sorry you're having such a hard time! Yes, if it really is a choice between two 'evils,' go with the AS before that PB egg again.

But I've found that every time I stop something that I'm addicted to, there's a 5-6 day phase that is HARD! Danged hard. painful. I call it "white knuckling" the cravings and it's not fun. But except for taking l-glutamine, which may help, staying busy, and keeping the environment carb-free, I know of no other way to make it through the withdrawal phase than with the white knuckles!--or, as Nike so often repeats, just doing it. I wish there were an easier, happier answer to the withdrawal phase...and if you find one, let us all know!

[offdawagon]

Wonder if I could change my user name to "WhiteKnuckles"? :D