Runners knee

[Rupert]

I seem to have developed "runners knee" in my left knee. Is
there any aerobic exercise I can do that won't make things
worse (other than swimming). Also any tips on treating this
problem. TIA.

[Ozzie Gont]

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
"Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Rupert wrote:

> I seem to have developed "runners knee" in my left knee. Is
> there any aerobic exercise I can do that won't make things
> worse (other than swimming). Also any tips on treating this
> problem. TIA.

Rupert,

These posts may be of some help to you.

In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer -
rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running: http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/

Some previous posts that might be of help in your thinking
about your knee, which most often than not is caused by the
quads or the hamstrings being too tight.

Post #1

> Hi, I am looking for a bit of advice, I have recently
> started to increase my mileage (outdoors, mostly on road)
> and in the last month or so my right knee has started to
> give me grief after running. Its a generally feeling of
> stiffness, slight discomfort not localized in any particular
> place but across the whole knee. It is particularly
> noticeable when going down stairs. It doesn't give me any
> problems when running but a couple of hours after/next day
> it seems to stiffen up. From what i've read it seems to be
> "runners knee", I think I roll my right foot more than the
> left but whether that is the root cause I am not sure. I
> have read some of Ozzie's posts on this or similar, (Sept
> 1st on rolling pins and facia release) and that is a long
> term cure/relief, what I was wonder is what I should do now?
>
> Stop running for a couple of weeks. Cut down on my running.
> Only run on soft surfaces or treadmills. Wear a (neoprene)
> knee support. Seek medical advice. or none of the above.
>
> Any advice or help would be gratefully received.
>
> Neil Riddoch

Neil,

The rolling of the quads or massaging them is extremely
helpful in loosening the quad muscle so that it can relax
and release. Once that happens, the muscles relaxes and
takes the pressure off the tendon which then takes the
pressure off the knee.

As I've mentioned in other posts, during a training run, I may
stop 6 to 10 times to keep loosening the quads or hamstrings.

Freeing the quads and working on the hamstring by using the
edge of a chair on them or sitting on a tennis ball or later a
baseball as a way to accupressure the hamstrings will do more
for the release of tendons around the knee.

Remember muscles relax and contract. If they only partially
relax, then the tendon has to take up that tension. Tendons
can stretch but they're not suppose to. It's the muscles that
relax and contract. Loosen that which is suppose to relax and
unnecessary tension to the tendon disappears.

If you are hitting on the back of the heel of the shoe as you
run, as in heel striker, then you are giving your joints a
beating. We're back to lifting the knees and marching in place
to see what running is about. If you are lifting your center
of gravity with each step more than is needed, then you are
coming back down to earth with a rather hard jar to the knees.
If you are landing on the back of the heel of the shoe, they
your running is a deceleration with each step because of the
overstride. Overstride defined as your foot is landing in
front of your center of gravity.

Don't know how much running you're doing so don't know if it's
about cutting down. Practice lifting the knees as in marching
in place and lean from the ankle. Land softly ball then heel.
As soon as the heel touches that triggers the lifting of the
other knee. The transition means you don't have to jump up and
down with each step.

I'm for running on uneven ground so as to get the foot/ankle
and leg able to do what they're suppose to do, adjust. I have
an article somewhere that talks about FSOS (Flat Surface
Overuse Syndrome)

We'll be watching as you play with finding out what works for
you. As mentioned many times. My stuff is folklore. If it
works for you, use
it. If it doesn't don't give it any (read: ZERO) energy and
find someone that does make sense and whose folklore
works for you. And when you find that, come back and
share it with me and the others so that we can educate
ourselves better. And finally when you can't find any
good folklore, create what works for you and then share
it back here at rec.running for all of us to play with
and test and experiment with.

Post #2

Jerry Freedman wrote:

> I wrote here a few weeks ago. I had just started running and
> had a bad cramp in on calf(soleus) and achilles tendinitis
> in the other. Ozzie replied (thanks again)along with others
> who pointed me to Ozzie's stuff. I took a few weeks off, did
> all the stretches, the marching exercises, the "stirrup"
> squat and started back running (quietly). The good news is
> that my calf problems are gone. Even with the running my AT
> gets better everyday. The question I have is about my quads.
> To run quietly ( as recommended) with a ball heel strike I
> find I have to maintain a sort of crouch. This is very hard
> on my quads. I am doing 2 minutes run/1 minute walk for 20
> minutes and my quads can barely take it. Is this something I
> work through? Is it a technique problem? I already lift
> weights including squats and deadlifts..
>
>
> Jerry Freedman

Jerry,

The second picture at http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp where
the people are on hands and feet with the quads across the
lower railing of a hand rail would be a way to massage out the
quads. You can use a rolling pin on the ground or a piece of
PVC, inch and a half or two inch. Most of the weight is on the
forearms and toes and knees. Gradually you allow the
railing/rolling pin/PVC to sink into the quads as you relax
and allow the quads to let go but taking weight off the
forearms and toes and knees. Do it lovingly and gradually.

Then you can begin to roll forward or backward to work the
quads loose always keeping most of the weight on the feet,
knees and forearms/hands. Also continue to breathe and keep
the face and shoulders relaxed otherwise you're transferring
the tension from one part of your body to another. The various
techniques of breathing used in helping women prepare for the
birthing process follow the same idea of keeping the body
relaxed completely.

Regarding loosening up the hamstrings to release the quads
more, here's a piece from a previous post:

When sprinting, the quads(antagonists) get overstretched by
the hamstrings and gluts (agonists). I think I read in John
Jesse that hams and/or gluts account for 55% of the forward
thrust when sprinting. As they contract to catapult the body
forward, the quads and the illiopsoas are suppose to be
relaxing and stretching to their max. But if one's posture is
prone to slouching, then the psoas is shortened and when
overstretched as happens in sprinting, it contracts or
tightens to protect itself. That tightening when joined by the
Illiacus is deep and often one feels it in the origin of the
illiacus at the top of the illiac crest of the pelvis. It may
be the symptom of the hamstrings having also tightened because
they were strained because the quads only partially relaxed
when they quads were to have been totally relaxed.

So. Get two baseballs. Or more gently start with two
tennis balls.

Sit on a chair and let the tennis balls rest in the middle of
the hamstring. Or you can go up toward the sitz bones of the
pelvis and roll across the tennis balls by moving your body
side to side over the tennis balls. Up toward the sitz bones
you'll feel yourself going over tendons, feels like going over
pieces of rope. Just sitting on the tennis balls can act
almost like an accupressure which can let the muscle's tight
spot or trigger point relax.

If you want to see how tight one of the hams is, sit on the
EDGE of the chair. One leg has the foot on the ground with
the foot under the knee, as most of of sit anyway. The other
leg is out straight resting on the heel. Close to a 45
degree angle between the ground and the leg. Stay slouched
and lift up that straightened leg. Now sit up straight so
that you are sitting on your sitz bones and the body is
erect. Now lift up your leg and you'll see that it's harder
to lift up the leg because the lifting muscle illiopsoas has
to now work against your hamstring which has been stretched
by you sitting up straight.

So work on the hamstrings and loosen them by massage with the
tennis balls and them gradually go to the baseballs.

Also practice sitting up a quarter of an inch straighter
during your day. Remind yourself to do it ten times a day and
know that it will only last 20 to 30 seconds each time. This
way you're not straining the hams or the psoas and gradually
you'll elongate those muscles. But they're much easier to
elongate if you're doing the rolling with the tennis and/or
baseballs when you're sitting at your desk at your computer.
Sit in a chair which has no back and no arms, so that you are
practicing the erect posture of a good runner. Gradually as
you stretch the hams, and psoas by good posture, it will
effect your running so that the tone of the quads, hams and
gluts will be such that their range of motion doesn't restrict
the range of motion of the agonist muscle group(s).

Let us know how you continue to progress.

[Dawn-Elise]

"Rupert" <@freeserve.com> wrote in message
news:<agr38s$816$1@paris.btinternet.com>...
> I seem to have developed "runners knee" in my left knee. Is
> there any aerobic exercise I can do that won't make things
> worse (other than swimming). Also any tips on treating this
> problem. TIA.

Try rowing or circuit training. Using one of the electronic
rowing machines at the gym helps. You need to reconfigure your
target heartrate by using the formula 200-age instead of 220.
It is a unique form of cross training and will keep your heart
in good condition while your knee heals. Also, vigorous
calesthenics such as push ups, situps, and circuit weight
training would be good options that minimize the wear-and-tear
on your knees.

Dawn-Elise Certified Personal Trainer, IFA

[Jimbo]

"Ozzie Gontang" <gontang@electriciti.com> wrote in message
news:130720022307106038%gontang@electriciti.com...
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
> "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Who gives a flying fuck?!

[Joe Rand]

I do.

Joe
--------------------
"Jimbo" <jimbodino@nsyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ags3ga$2gq$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> "Ozzie Gontang" <gontang@electriciti.com> wrote in message
> news:130720022307106038%gontang@electriciti.com...
> > [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To,"
> > "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> Who gives a flying fuck?!

[Jimbo]

"Joe Rand" <joerand@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:F7hY-
8.20536$A43.2100346@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I do.

Why?

> --------------------
> "Jimbo" <jimbodino@nsyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ags3ga$2gq$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >
> > "Ozzie Gontang" <gontang@electriciti.com> wrote in message
> > news:130720022307106038%gontang@electriciti.com...
> > > [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the
> > > "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
> >
> > Who gives a flying fuck?!
> >
> >
>

[Joe Rand]

why not?

"Jimbo" <jimbodino@nsyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:agsn43$4ls$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> "Joe Rand" <joerand@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:F7-
> hY8.20536$A43.2100346@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > I do.
>
> Why?
>
>
> > --------------------
> > "Jimbo" <jimbodino@nsyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:ags3ga$2gq$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > >
> > > "Ozzie Gontang" <gontang@electriciti.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > news:130720022307106038%gontang@electriciti.com...
> > > > [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the
> > > > "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
> > >
> > > Who gives a flying fuck?!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

[Jimbo]

"Joe Rand" <joerand@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5BWY-
8.24759$A43.2473569@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> why not?

Who's on first?

> "Jimbo" <jimbodino@nsyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:agsn43$4ls$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >
> > "Joe Rand" <joerand@earthlink.net> wrote in message new-
> > s:F7hY8.20536$A43.2100346@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.-
> > net...
> > > I do.
> >
> > Why?
> >
> >
> > > --------------------
> > > "Jimbo" <jimbodino@nsyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:ags3ga$2gq$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Ozzie Gontang" <gontang@electriciti.com> wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > news:130720022307106038%gontang@electriciti.com...
> > > > > [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the
> > > > > "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
> > > >
> > > > Who gives a flying fuck?!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>