Pain from right shoulder down to biceps during runnning

[Fitness]

Hi,

I am a beginner in running and after about 10 mins of
running, I feel a strain from my right shoulder down till
middle of my right hand in a straight line. I am not running
too fast. I know since I am running at my own pace. Am I not
running in proper form? What should be the proper form while
running? How should my arm movements be? What is the proper
way of breathing? Can anybody recommend me any good
book/website on proper running technique/form/breathing etc?
Thanks very much in advance.

[Cyberbear]

"Fitness" <fitness_ca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cb48b66c.0207011629.663d6f39@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I am a beginner in running and after about 10 mins of
> running,
I feel
> a strain from my right shoulder down till middle of
> my right
hand in
> a straight line. I am not running too fast. I know
> since I am
running at
> my own pace. Am I not running in proper form? What should
> be the proper form while running? How should my arm
> movements be? What is the proper way of
breathing?
> Can anybody recommend me any good book/website on proper
running
> technique/form/breathing etc? Thanks very much in advance.

Chances are that you are keeping the muscles in your arms too
tense while you are running. Try to relax and keep your arms
loose. This goes for your shoulders, too. I usually try to
keep my forearms approximately horizontal and my elbows down
near the waist level. Don't try to carry your arms too high.

I don't have any book recommendations or technical advice
for you. Others more qualified than I am will fill in the
blanks, I'm sure.

You will slowly develop a running style that is efficient for
your body, and comfortable for those longer runs.

[Layne Wall]

Hi, Fit,

On 1 Jul 2002 17:29:48 -0700, Fitness wrote:

>Hi,
>
> I am a beginner in running and after about 10 mins of
> running, I feel a strain from my right shoulder down till
> middle of my right hand in a straight line. I am not running
> too fast. I know since I am running at my own pace. Am I not
> running in proper form? What should be the proper form while
> running? How should my arm movements be? What is the proper
> way of breathing? Can anybody recommend me any good
> book/website on proper running technique/form/breathing etc?
> Thanks very much in advance.
>
Whew, that's a bunch of questions. :-) Believe it or not,
here's a short answer.

From my limited experience, I would agree with Cyberbear about
the pain - relaxed shoulders and arms can help a lot. Also,
relaxing your hands may help. Many of us beginners start
running with clenched hands (I'm not sure why unless it's to
show we're REALLY serious about running). Relax. More about
form that could help here follows.

It's often hard to know if one is running too fast as a
beginner. You may not be but on the other hand ... One issue
in running is energy management. In overly simple terms, a
sprint is a different animal than an ultramarathon. Managing
your energy reserves is done through effort control and your
running speed is the result of effort. This is going to vary
due to terrain, weather (heat), physical status (ill, tired,
ticked off), and the distance you plan to run. The speed
you're running shouldn't play a part in your arm pain, AFAIK.
Do you feel like you're running (?) out of steam after 10
minutes and the arm pain just happens to show up at the same
time? If so, that's an energy management topic instead of a
pain topic.

Running form is a topic that I'm still learning (and judging
from the amount I've learned so far, will be for some years).
Form can play a part in arm pain but there is an interaction
with a number of other things. For example, posture is
important for effiency and injury avoidance. Ozzie Gontag has
a number of excellent ideas about posture and I hope he'll
chime in to correct/add to my info. Basically, good running
posture allows you land efficiently and with the least chance
of injury, prepare for the next step, and launch. In doing
so, good running posture also puts the least amount of
unnecessary strain on your body as you run. For example, by
running with your head up in a relaxed position, that takes
the strain off the high shoulder muscles that must be used to
hold your head at an angle (such as bending forward). Another
way of saying that is that your head is just resting at the
top of your body not pulling on any muscles. This is
important to your situation because the muscles that hold
your head get tired and recruit other muscles (let's say
upper arm) to help out. When you find that you're hunching
your shoulders, that's a very good sign that your posture has
hit the toilet (experience speaking there). After a period of
constant stress (say 10 minutes), these muscles are gonna
squeal and you have arm pain. There's a similar harrangue
about lower back pain, too.

Everyone has a different running form that is comfortable for
them. Part of learning to run is learning your form. A good
start is to follow Ozzie's suggestion for marching in place
and slightly leaning forward. You'll be standing upright and
when you lean you can't help but go forward. Another effect
will be that your foot will land under your center of gravity.
This is a very big deal for avoiding running injuries. It's
gonna feel like your steps are too short at first but as you
get the hang of running upright and leaning, your stride will
naturally lengthen. It's also gonna feel like you're landing
on the middle of your foot instead of the ball. That's
actually a good thing for distance running (sprinters use the
ball of thier foot for a different kind of running) - it's
efficient, painless, and can be used on any terrain. Another
big deal about form is to run relaxed. This sounds weird and
is kinda like rubbing your tummy and patting your ("I'm
supposed to exert effort to run but relax at the same time?")
but it's worth a try. When you get to the point where you're
doing longer runs, your calves, quads, and hams may do the
same thing that shoulders do if you let your head tilt forward
- clench/cramp (there are several other reasons for cramping,
too). Relax.

I'm going to give a slightly different view than Cyberbear
about arm position but I thinks it's a difference of equal
points of view (neither is more right than the other). I tend
to feel more comfortable with my arms higher - elbows forming
a less than 90 degree angle. My wife runs comfortably with her
arms at a much greater than 90 degree angle. I think that
Cyberbear was concerned that if you carry your arms too high,
it can cause the shoulders to tense up and bring on the arm
pain. It terms of arm movement, as long as they are
synchronized with your legs (and not wildly flailing out to
the sides) you're golden. It seem I remember reading an
article that found women tend to move their arms more straight
front to back and men tend to move their arms in an arc to the
front but, IMHO, this is interesting for party talk (or not)
but not something that you should use as a guide.

Breathing is another one of those write-a-book topics. There
are runners who use their breathing to control their pace
(I'm not at that level yet) and others who totally disconnect
their breathing from their footfalls. Most beginners seem to
breath 2-in/2-out at first (2 steps during the inhale and 2
steps during the exhale). A few very fit beginners do
3-in/3-out. And, some of us get to 1-in/1out very quickly. In
my experience, the key to learning how to breath while
running is the exhale. When I started running, I tried to get
more air into my lungs but that's a losing proposition. The
key is to make sure you have expelled as much CO2 as possible
to make room for the new air. The way I used was to exhale
for one extra step (changing from a 2-in/2-out to a
2-in/3-out). After several runs where I tried this, the deep
breathing became automatic. There's a lot more to this so ask
when you're ready.

I don't know of one book that tells all. I think that most of
us gather information, try it, and keep the stuff that works
for us. The rec.running FAQ (
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ ) has a wealth of info.
One of the best things I can suggest is to keep asking
questions.

Good luck and let us know how it goes, Layne

-------------------------------------------------------
The rec.running report archives may be found at
http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

[Chris]

You may be experiencing nerve irritation, I would recommend
some upper body conditioning as well as what Cyberbear and
Layne said. Chris

"Fitness" <fitness_ca@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cb48b66c.0207011629.663d6f39@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I am a beginner in running and after about 10 mins of
> running, I feel a strain from my right shoulder down till
> middle of my right hand in a straight line. I am not
> running too fast. I know since I am running at my own pace.
> Am I not running in proper form? What should be the proper
> form while running? How should my arm movements be? What is
> the proper way of breathing? Can anybody recommend me any
> good book/website on proper running
> technique/form/breathing etc? Thanks very much in advance.

[Fitness]

Many Many Thanks to everybody who responded to my question
and specially many thanks to Layne for taking your time to
provide me such a detailed reply which indeed is extremely
helpful to me.

"Layne Wallace" <lwallace@unf.edu> wrote in message
news:<yjnyynprhasrqh.gyltj2a.pminews@news.fdn.com>...
> Hi, Fit,
>
> On 1 Jul 2002 17:29:48 -0700, Fitness wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> > I am a beginner in running and after about 10 mins of
> > running, I feel a strain from my right shoulder down till
> > middle of my right hand in a straight line. I am not
> > running too fast. I know since I am running at my own
> > pace. Am I not running in proper form? What should be the
> > proper form while running? How should my arm movements be?
> > What is the proper way of breathing? Can anybody recommend
> > me any good book/website on proper running
> > technique/form/breathing etc? Thanks very much in advance.
> >
> Whew, that's a bunch of questions. :-) Believe it or not,
> here's a short answer.
>
> From my limited experience, I would agree with Cyberbear
> about the pain - relaxed shoulders and arms can help a lot.
> Also, relaxing your hands may help. Many of us beginners
> start running with clenched hands (I'm not sure why unless
> it's to show we're REALLY serious about running). Relax.
> More about form that could help here follows.
>
> It's often hard to know if one is running too fast as a
> beginner. You may not be but on the other hand ... One issue
> in running is energy management. In overly simple terms, a
> sprint is a different animal than an ultramarathon. Managing
> your energy reserves is done through effort control and your
> running speed is the result of effort. This is going to vary
> due to terrain, weather (heat), physical status (ill, tired,
> ticked off), and the distance you plan to run. The speed
> you're running shouldn't play a part in your arm pain,
> AFAIK. Do you feel like you're running (?) out of steam
> after 10 minutes and the arm pain just happens to show up at
> the same time? If so, that's an energy management topic
> instead of a pain topic.
>
> Running form is a topic that I'm still learning (and judging
> from the amount I've learned so far, will be for some
> years). Form can play a part in arm pain but there is an
> interaction with a number of other things. For example,
> posture is important for effiency and injury avoidance.
> Ozzie Gontag has a number of excellent ideas about posture
> and I hope he'll chime in to correct/add to my info.
> Basically, good running posture allows you land efficiently
> and with the least chance of injury, prepare for the next
> step, and launch. In doing so, good running posture also
> puts the least amount of unnecessary strain on your body as
> you run. For example, by running with your head up in a
> relaxed position, that takes the strain off the high
> shoulder muscles that must be used to hold your head at an
> angle (such as bending forward). Another way of saying that
> is that your head is just resting at the top of your body
> not pulling on any muscles. This is important to your
> situation because the muscles that hold your head get tired
> and recruit other muscles (let's say upper arm) to help out.
> When you find that you're hunching your shoulders, that's a
> very good sign that your posture has hit the toilet
> (experience speaking there). After a period of constant
> stress (say 10 minutes), these muscles are gonna squeal and
> you have arm pain. There's a similar harrangue about lower
> back pain, too.
>
> Everyone has a different running form that is comfortable
> for them. Part of learning to run is learning your form. A
> good start is to follow Ozzie's suggestion for marching in
> place and slightly leaning forward. You'll be standing
> upright and when you lean you can't help but go forward.
> Another effect will be that your foot will land under your
> center of gravity. This is a very big deal for avoiding
> running injuries. It's gonna feel like your steps are too
> short at first but as you get the hang of running upright
> and leaning, your stride will naturally lengthen. It's also
> gonna feel like you're landing on the middle of your foot
> instead of the ball. That's actually a good thing for
> distance running (sprinters use the ball of thier foot for a
> different kind of running) - it's efficient, painless, and
> can be used on any terrain. Another big deal about form is
> to run relaxed. This sounds weird and is kinda like rubbing
> your tummy and patting your ("I'm supposed to exert effort
> to run but relax at the same time?") but it's worth a try.
> When you get to the point where you're doing longer runs,
> your calves, quads, and hams may do the same thing that
> shoulders do if you let your head tilt forward -
> clench/cramp (there are several other reasons for cramping,
> too). Relax.
>
> I'm going to give a slightly different view than Cyberbear
> about arm position but I thinks it's a difference of equal
> points of view (neither is more right than the other). I
> tend to feel more comfortable with my arms higher - elbows
> forming a less than 90 degree angle. My wife runs
> comfortably with her arms at a much greater than 90 degree
> angle. I think that Cyberbear was concerned that if you
> carry your arms too high, it can cause the shoulders to
> tense up and bring on the arm pain. It terms of arm
> movement, as long as they are synchronized with your legs
> (and not wildly flailing out to the sides) you're golden. It
> seem I remember reading an article that found women tend to
> move their arms more straight front to back and men tend to
> move their arms in an arc to the front but, IMHO, this is
> interesting for party talk (or not) but not something that
> you should use as a guide.
>
> Breathing is another one of those write-a-book topics. There
> are runners who use their breathing to control their pace
> (I'm not at that level yet) and others who totally
> disconnect their breathing from their footfalls. Most
> beginners seem to breath 2-in/2-out at first (2 steps during
> the inhale and 2 steps during the exhale). A few very fit
> beginners do 3-in/3-out. And, some of us get to 1-in/1out
> very quickly. In my experience, the key to learning how to
> breath while running is the exhale. When I started running,
> I tried to get more air into my lungs but that's a losing
> proposition. The key is to make sure you have expelled as
> much CO2 as possible to make room for the new air. The way I
> used was to exhale for one extra step (changing from a
> 2-in/2-out to a 2-in/3-out). After several runs where I
> tried this, the deep breathing became automatic. There's a
> lot more to this so ask when you're ready.
>
> I don't know of one book that tells all. I think that most
> of us gather information, try it, and keep the stuff that
> works for us. The rec.running FAQ (
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/ ) has a wealth of
> info. One of the best things I can suggest is to keep asking
> questions.
>
> Good luck and let us know how it goes, Layne
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> The rec.running report archives may be found at
> http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running

[Jimbo]

"Michael Roose" <trainerofathletes@email.com> wrote in message
news:lfcciu4f5nkhhvk6an7hakmnkosf1t4o3n@4ax.com...
> On 1 Jul 2002 17:29:48 -0700, fitness_ca@hotmail.com
> (Fitness) wrote:
>
> |Hi,
> |
> | I am a beginner in running and after about 10 mins of
> | running, I feel a strain from my right shoulder down till
> | middle of my right hand in a straight line. I am not
> | running too fast. I know since I am running at my own
> | pace. Am I not running in proper form? What should be the
> | proper form while running? How should my arm movements be?
> | What is the proper way of breathing? Can anybody recommend
> | me any good book/website on proper running
> | technique/form/breathing etc? Thanks very much in advance.
>
> Try raising your arms overhead frequently to assist in
> venous blood return.

Bullshit!

Unofficial SUT/Mike Roos(e)/Michael Roos(e)/??? FAQ
--4/15/2002 Update: -- Clarification on age(s)

--4/13/2002 Update: -- SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? MFW Goodbye?

--4/12/2002 Update: -- Added new killfile members -- Added new
IP Info -- Added link to John William's post "SUT, Squack and
Plagiarism"

In order to help track of our illustrious expert, this
unofficial FAQ has been created. Any additions/corrections
will be considered for inclusion.

Q: Who is SUT/Mike Roos(e)/???
R: It's anybody's guess.

"Somewhat Useful Trainer" first appeared in MFW as such on
March 14th. Interestingly, this was just subsequent to a minor
blowup in Supertraining between Mel Siff and Dan Wagman, that
was then commented on in MFW.

"SUT" originally posted with the email address of
"protrain@email.com". As uncovered by John Williams, a
previous troll in both Supertraining and MFW, "Cid
Summers/Nancy/etc", had posted in Supertraining with the term
"Protrain" in it's signature. "Cid Summers/Nancy/etc" had
posted on Supertraining supposedly from Tennessee. John
Williams has tracked "SUT/Mike Roos(e)/???" to a DSL server in
Tennesse as well.

On April 1st (Fool's Day??), "SUT" changed it's name to "Mike
Roose". Again, John Williams uncovered a "Mike Roos (no E)"
that superficially matched some of "SUT"s claims. Also,
apparently a "Mike Roos (no E)" sent a letter to Mel Siff on
Supertraining on or about March 20th. "Mike Roose (with E)"
then began posting on Supertraining, using the "SUT" email.

The "real" Mike Roos (no E) apparently hails from
Tennesse as well.

On April 11, 2002, "SUT/Mike Roos(e)/???" changed from using
the free fu.berlin.de news service to what looks like the
TELOCITY/DirecTv news service. Why is anybody's guess; it
may be an attempt to further mask it's true location. While
using the fu.berlin.de news service, the posting path lead
back to the Tennessee IP address. The TELOCITY/DirecTv
posting path does not.

On April 14, 2002, SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? changed it's posting
name to "Michael Roose", and removed an "e" from it's email
address to "somewhatusfulltrainer..". Again, it's left to the
reader to determine if this is yet another attempt to bypass
killfiles, and/or make it more difficult to track/compare it's
various claims.

S: What has SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? done?
T: What hasn't he.

Although it is difficult to track it's various claims, it has
at one time or another claimed the following:

- 14 years old, college baseball player

- 15 years old, served in Vietnam, after losing 2s in
college.

- 16 years old, drafted by MLB/Minor League team.

(Note on above: Originally, the FAQ used the term "Around xx"
as an approximate age. SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? originally posted
that it was "around 45" years old.

In an April 14, 2002 posting to the Yahoo group Supertraining,
SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? claimed a specific age of 48.

The ages above are derived from postings by SUT/Mike
Roos(e)/??? where it claimed to be have been a "post-war
draftee" of the Yankees, specifically in 1969. It also has
stated that it had served in SE Asia after being "drafted,
lost my 2S in college")

- Co-owned Minor League Baseball team.

- Real estate baron.

- IT expert, working for IBM, etc.

- Fitness Guru, representing an elite group of
international trainers.

- Trainer for Professional Baseball Players.

- Trainer for NFL Players.

- Trainer for Professional Tennis Players.

- State Legislator.

- Presidential Campaign Vice Chairman.

- 4 time National Champion Coach.

Note that some of these superficially match the real "Mike
Roos". Mike Roos was a California State Legislator, who was
Vice Chairman for Jimmy Carter's Presidential Campaign. Mike
Roos also was apparently somewhat proficient in baseball,
playing at Tulane.

Q: What is SUT/Mike Roos(e)/???'s mode of posting in MFW?
R: Contributed by Robert Dorf:

"SUT has a pattern of plagiarizing at length, making bizarre
and conflicting claims, using the Socratic method when
attempting to argue a point, building an elaborate fictitious
identity and/or assuming other's identities, playing the "Who
am I?" game, drawing heavily on materials from Supertraining,
and trying to involve itself with the more publicly successful
members of MFW.

This pattern is very similar to that employed by Squack /
Nancy G., an apparently mentally ill troll from a few
years ago."

For a detailed look at an example of the above, see John
Williams' post:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=SUT,+Squack+and+Plagiarism+-
group:misc.f itn ess.weights&hl=en&safe=off&selm=3ca12bb5.768-
63162%40news.valkyrie.net&rnu m=1

S: Who has SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? killfiled?
T: The list grows and grows.

To date, the following are known to be killfiled on MFW:

Pat Styles Chris (CTM) August Pamplona suskib6 Alan McClure
Rob John Williams Rob Schuh Hoff John Smith John Lilly
Gabrielle Darkman John Hanson Henricus Bryce Lane Lisa
Ognjen Arandjelovic Jimmy Kukla Chris Gabel Bob Mann Ron Go
Steve Friedes Aaron Bob G Darryl Licke Seth Breidhart Mike
Mclean dahammel

(apologies to anyone missing)

U: Does SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? still post?
V: We'll see.......

On April 12, 2002, SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? made a flurry of
troll-like posts on MFW, changing it's user name/email address
in different ways to bypass reader killfiles.

Apparently, a behind the scenes mild confrontation was held in
Supertraining. Two different accounts were reported:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&threadm=dvMt8.-
21634%24Kq4. 932 390%40news2.calgary.shaw.ca&prev=/groups%3Fh-
l%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%2 6gr oup%3Dmisc.fitness.weights

and

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&threadm=3CB7C0-
3F.1992A024% 40i
W.netcom.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26gr-
oup%3Dmisc.f itn ess.weights

Interestingly, Mel Siff posted a warning regarding
plagiarizing on the Supertraining forum early on April 13th.
Coincidence?? You be the judge.

SUT/Mike Roos(e)/??? then posted it's MFW Swan Song:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&threadm=vqPt8.-
5741%244D6.3 92% 40rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net&prev=/groups%3Fh-
l%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%2 6gr oup%3Dmisc.fitness.weights

Is it truly gone? Only time will tell....

---------------------------------------------
Addendum: Intended Audience.

Most Regulars/Semi-Regulars of MFW recognize the SUT/Mike
Roos(e)/??? personna for what it really is. This FAQ is
intended for those newbies and irregulars who may wander into
MFW, and be ensnared by it's more reasonable posts.

For those, I add this advice by none other than the SUT/Mike
Roos(e)/??? personna itself:

"Make sure, Trainee, you are discerning who is experienced,
helpful and has "walked the walk" with a ***demonstrated
resume of successful training*** from those that may harm you
in order to satisfy their own egos.

Mike Roose Coachella Valley"

[Layne Wall]

On 3 Jul 2002 15:54:43 -0700, Fitness wrote:

>Many Many Thanks to everybody who responded to my question
>and specially many thanks to Layne for taking your time to
>provide me such a detailed reply which indeed is extremely
>helpful to me.
>
Any time. Let us know how it goes.

I'd also like to correct Ozzie's name - Gontang. I got a case
of happy fingers in the original post.

I think that Chris hit on something I missed. I'm not a
physican and do not play one on TV (although I did play one in
grade school). If the pain continues, a visit to your health
professional is definitely in order.

Good luck, Layne

-------------------------------------------------------
The rec.running report archives may be found at
http://kinder.cis.unf.edu/rec.running