[CKD] When do you usually hit ketosis?

[Pasoa2000]

I am curious as to when most of you hit ketosis? I'm a little worried because it's Wednesday AM and I really don't see any trace of ketons on the ketostix. When do most of you hit ketosis? And what could I be doing wrong?

I did AM cardio mon,tue and today (40 min jog) on an empty stomach with ripped fuel extreme.

Mon and Tue I did upper/lower body workout.

I have been taking ALA and vanadyl twice a day.

I drink a lot of water.

My diet consists of eggs and bacon in the morning, tuna w/ mayo for lunches, and usually two large burgers with some A1 at night. Or steak.

When I am at work (I work at a restaurant) I get a cesar salad with grilled chicken. I've been taking two tablespoons of flax (anyone know the best way to mix that with something - tastes kina yuck....)

Responses appreciated.

[west_on_46]

I rarely get into ketosis that soon. If I measured it obsessively I probably would have found some right after meals, but the stable between-meals ketosis produced from my own bodyfat doesn't usually arrive until Thursday or so. Seems like it gets harder to reach as your bf drops - my friends who've tried CKD can get into ketosis in a day, but they have more supply, so to speak...

[Pasoa2000]

West,

I see you are at 5% body fat - and you started at 190 lbs - what was your body fat at 190? I am wondering cuz I weigh 190 right now - and have 12% - down from 13.6 before I started CKD (only on the 2nd week now) - Do your friends have significantly more than that?

I would like to get down to 180 / 6-8%

How long did it take you?

[Pasoa2000]

Also West - If you only hit ketosis for 1 day (assuming carb up on friday) does this even result in fat loss?

[west_on_46]

Originally posted by Pasoa2000
West,

I see you are at 5% body fat - and you started at 190 lbs - what was your body fat at 190? I am wondering cuz I weigh 190 right now - and have 12% - down from 13.6 before I started CKD (only on the 2nd week now) - Do your friends have significantly more than that?

I would like to get down to 180 / 6-8%

How long did it take you?

The weight numbers I put in were approximate - you've seen my carbup record with a 8-pound swing. When I started at 190 I was probably 8-10%. You should be able to get to 180/6%. Those guys I knew that hit ketosis in a day were in the 20-some range.

Of course you can lose weight without ketosis - the ol' energy balance comes into play. To me it's a little more convenient to diet in ketosis because it suppresses hunger, makes me feel better, and the fat loss is a bit more effective, but if I'm not in it by Friday, fine - try something different next week...

By the way, I carb Saturday morning - Sunday afternoon. That was actually one of the things that broke my previous plateaus. Possibly because I spent more time in ketosis, or quite likely also because carbing at night is more likely to produce fat regain.

[fridayeyes]

If you are very well hydrated, esp to the point of peeing clear (sorry for the bluntness), your strips may not turn even though you are in ketosis. The ketones are simply too diluted to register. Ketosis blunts your appetite, makes your mouth taste funny (sweet.metallic) and may change the odor of your sweat, breath and/or urine. If you notice these signs, you are probablu in ketosis even if your strips don't change.

Another way to tell is to collect the urine in a cup and stick the strip in the cup. This can sometimes give a result when the ol' stick-it-in-the-stream method doesn't work. (Can you tell I know WAYYY too much about this?)

Also, those of you who carb up on stuff like Gatorade, check the label for fructose, esp High fructose corn syrup. Fructose (even from real fruit) tends to sneak into the liver rather than the muscles and it will live there for a few days, thus making ketosis harder to establish. If you think fructose is the problem, read the labels of your baked goods, too. It's in bread, juice, cookies, etc.

I carb up from dinner Friday thru dinner Sat and hit ketosis around dinner Sun.

Cheers,

Friday

[geoffrey]

For you guys out their, do you lose your appetite when you are in ketosis? I am getting great results with the ckd but I dont really get the symptoms of ketosis. I am pretty sure I am doing everything right. I only eat 10-15 carbs a day and do the am cardio 5 times a week. Could it be I am in ketosis and its just that everyones body reacts differently?


Geoffrey

[west_on_46]

Well I suppose one way for you to find out is to get the sticks, but as fridayeyes pointed out, they can be diluted, etc. I also recall Lyle posting something on the lowcarb list to the effect of ketones being reabsorbed from the urine by the kidneys (nothing wrong with being blunt). Normally they don't do that but some researchers found it as a possible mechanism of adaptation to starvation.

To me anyway, ketosis does suppress hunger and gives me more energy - that's why I try to get there by eating less protein and more fat in the beginning of the week. However, it's not absolutely necessary for weight loss, it's just easier to diet that way.

[geoffrey]

West,
About how many grams of fat are you consuming daily?According to the ckd parameters from the calculator I should be getting about 136g of fat a day. Maybe I should increase that. I am getting great results, I just hate being hungry a ll the time.

Geoffrey

[west_on_46]

I'm not sure which calculator you're referring to (if you have a link, please post). I eat about 160-170 g or so, weighing 185 on average (carbed/depleted).

How much protein?

[Pasoa2000]

Well I just tested with a ketostick and it's pretty dark purple - the darkest I've ever seen it. It's Thursday PM btw. I did some morning cardio this morning as well.

On a side note - based on what seems like an overwelming recomendation, I also purchased some coconut oil this morning.

I took one tablespoon full before the AM cardio w/ some ripped fuel extreme. Is the dark purple related to the coconut?

Also, can the coconut replace the flax oil? I actually don't mind downing a spoonfull of the coconut oil - but the flax on the other hand tastes like crap.

[Pasoa2000]

Geofrey - It seems to me you might not be in heavy ketosis or at all then. In fact yesterday and today seem to be the only days that I have been - and I'm not hungry at all. I do eat though to make sure to minimize muscle loss. Are you measuring ketones on the ketostix? Maybe get some of that coconut oil - as I said above I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not but took some this morning and immediately I'm in the dark purple region, whereas before I'd only get a mild pink.

[west_on_46]

Coconut oil... hmmm, gotta try that. Is that following Duchaine's recommendations on medium-chain triglycerides?

[geoffrey]

West,
Here is the link for the calculator: http://www.voicenet.com/~petrizzi/fitness/ckdcalc.html

I got that off of Trainerdan's site. The calculator tells me take take in about 130 grams of protein, but I usually go over by about 50grams. Pasoa, my diet looks alot like yours. I am definetly gonna go pick up some coconut oil this weekend. Hopefully that will suppress my hunger.

[west_on_46]

What a cool toy!

G- I've found extra protein to be a problem for getting into ketosis, at least in the first few days of the week. That's when I try to keep it at 0.5 g/lb for a day or two. It sucks to do but gets me into ketosis by Thursday or late Wednesday if I am really active. I don't do that all the time, just when I feel particularly motivated!

[Pasoa2000]

West,

You seem to hit ketosis at about the same time I do. I'd love to know what people are doing to hit ketosis after 12 hours of no-carbing as some have mentioned. Or perhaps that is related to a higher body fat percentage?

According to the Tanita scale I'm at 16 - According to the Gym scale I'm at 11.6 - According to calipers (me doing the measurements, 3 site) I'm at 12.5 - So I'm thinking that I'm probably around 12. The Tanita scale obviously sucks.

It's funny - on another web site some guy in the forums was showing pictures of him at 6% - Totally cut to shreds. He said 6% was done by a professional using good calipers. He stepped on a Tanita and it showed him to be 16. Hmmmmm.

LOL

[west_on_46]

I'm not surprised. Tanita estimates bodyfat based on electrical conductance of the body. Water conducts electricity and fat doesn't, so it's programmed along those lines. When dieting and especially ketogenic dieting, body water drops and the resistance rises, making it look like you're made out of fat.

If you're really curious, eat a lot of salt for a day and check Tanita again - I bet it will show a lower percentage because you'll be retaining more water.

As far as getting into ketosis that fast... well this is sort of thinking out loud based on what I know about physiology (I did go to medical school for two years) and what I've read Lyle and other knowledgeable people post elsewhere: The body clearly adapts to ketosis, which it perceives as starvation. One of the adaptive mechanisms may be using free fatty acids for fuel without conversion to ketones. Also, kidneys may begin to reabsorb ketones so they are not lost in the urine (same reference). I would also imagine that if you are cycling carbs, the liver's glycogen storage capacity may increase, although don't have anything to back that up. Bottomline: people who are just starting the ketogenic diet may be hitting ketosis very quickly before those adaptive mechanisms kick in (weeks? months?). Plus they simply have more bodyfat to make ketones out of.

[Zeus]

Bottomline: people who are just starting the ketogenic diet may be hitting ketosis very quickly before those adaptive mechanisms kick in (weeks? months?). Plus they simply have more bodyfat to make ketones out of.

-I've found this to be the case. Rather than getting into ketosis quicker as I progress; it takes longer. The only tactic I could think of to get around this annoyance would be to use certain illegal measures (I suppose glucose disposal agents could help to some degree however).

[Trainerdan]

Not everything has to be illegal ... LOL ...

Assuming you have a certain metabolic disorder, and like to stick yourself in the finger on an hourly basis ... I am diabetic, and by closely monitoring my food intake, medication dose, and my glucose levels on Sunday night, I can get myself into ketosis by Monday morning if I really wanted to.

Not that this is super safe, but it is possible.

It is alot of trouble, and a royal pain to do, but I have woken up on Monday morning in ketosis before by using this.

But, I am content with getting ketosis Monday night by using strong thermos, AM interval training, and heavy compound PM weights.

Oh, and by the way, nice quote Zeus. It is one of my favorites from BodyOpus.

[Zeus]

Not everything has to be illegal ... LOL ...

-I know, but- it's sometimes tempting to take the 'easy route' (not that I have... can't say I haven't thought about it).

Oh, and by the way, nice quote Zeus. It is one of my favorites from BodyOpus.

-Yeah, Duchaine was something else. Making people wake up every 2 hours to eat some carb's ...that's as 'Duchaine-like' as it gets.

[Trainerdan]

You should read his Dirty Dieting stuff. Complete Duchaine at his best -- raw and uncensored.

I miss reading his articles ... especially his old MM2000 stuff before ol' BP starting putting a leash on him.

Even then, it was still good. So was his stuff in Ironman just before he left us.

I remember hearing the rumor of it from some of my bodybuilder buddies, and I e-mailed Ruth Silverman from Ironman asking her if it was the truth. I remember being sad when I got her reply.

He was the man. Actually, he still is the man. No one else like him.

[west_on_46]

Originally posted by Trainerdan
He was the man. Actually, he still is the man. No one else like him.

Indeed he is. I think that "potential liability" was simply not in his vocabulary. He clearly believed in personal responsibility, unlike the guy who is suing the fast food companies now. And if he was wrong, he was not afraid to come out and say "I used to think that this was right but since then I've found that it isn't".

I really wish that the medical science / govenment complex would heed those words in regards to their lowfat/highcarb nutrition propaganda.

[Zeus]

You should read his Dirty Dieting stuff. Complete Duchaine at his best -- raw and uncensored.

-Actually, I've just got done running through most of those 'Dirty Dieting' newsletters. Most of the stuff he talked about went right over my head. I was kind of disappointed actually- because, I thought it was going to be like an 'add-on' to BODYOPUS. Rather, it just talked about the use of (and 'make your own') certain drugs; for the most part.

[Zeus]

West- if you don't mind my asking... why are you still following the BODYOPUS (CKD) plan? I mean, come on, you're obviously already f'n shredded. How much lower do you want your body-fat to go? I guess I'm asking- why keep torturing yourself?

-Note: Meant to post this on another thread... 'my bad'.

[west_on_46]

Originally posted by Zeus
West- if you don't mind my asking... why are you still following the BODYOPUS (CKD) plan? I mean, come on, you're obviously already f'n shredded. How much lower do you want your body-fat to go? I guess I'm asking- why keep torturing yourself?

-Note: Meant to post this on another thread... 'my bad'.

I see it as maintenance, believe it or not, and don't really consider it as torture. In the past I used to do cycles and bulking/cutting phases and all, and I guess it worked to some degree but finally I concluded that it was more torture on the ol' ego to see the cuts go away.

I guess some people can diet down to their level and then relax their program. I'm not one of them. My parents forgot to give me the thin gene. I asked them for it repeatedly but they still won't give it to me. Tried a lot of things and decided that making CKD a lifestyle is a better choice.

There are upsides to it anyway - especially with the morning cardio I am more energetic, more productive during the day, never get the after-lunch coma, and it keeps me away from trouble like alcohol and such. Well, sort of... :daze:

For that matter, I've never been able to get through the fall/winter season without regaining fat. I'm looking forward to this year.

[Zeus]

Hmm, I guess you could use it as maintenance. However, if you want to put on muscle mass... the 'CKD/BODYOPUS' plan is definitely not the way to go (the optimal 'way to go' at least).

[Pasoa2000]

Zeus that reminds me of something I wanted to ask...

When I am done with the CKD - Which might be the end of september, I will want to start gaining. My plan is to get down to 7 or 8 % bodyfat, and then gain until I hit 10 or 11, diet, gain etc.

But what to eat during the gaining phase? Anything and everything?

[west_on_46]

True, CKD is not an optimal plan for gaining.

As for me, I stay away from "gaining phases", where you eat anything and everything, as far as possible. The very first one taught me that. Once I started eating, I blew up like a balloon nor could I stop, and those two factors just made me a mental wreck. Quite possibly other people can pull it off without such issues but keep in mind that you're talking to a guy who can eat 18000 calories in a weekend! ;)

Seriously though, if your diet is making you think "OK, just let me do it for X more weeks and then I'm going to eat like a pig", I strongly suggest that you immediately change it to something more handleable. Kind of like the old rule of not going grocery shopping on an empty stomach.

What worked for me was German Volume Training, eating more protein and not bothering with reaching ketosis. Still carbed on the weekends, still did cardio but not as much. GVT followed by a carbup gives a mad pump - try it sometime. I certainly made my mistakes, such as carbing too much, too long, and with "whatever". Doesn't have to be GVT, it's just been good to me - I've tried a number of different things and none worked as well.

[Zeus]

West basically summed it up. You may want to incorporate mass building supplements such as prohormones, creatine, high calorie meal replacements, etc.

[west_on_46]

Well this week I am experimenting with smaller meals to see if it gets me into ketosis faster. The idea is that there's less protein per meal, because I've been hearing this concept of "more than X grams of protein per meal will be converted to glucose". It may help or it may not; last week I didn't hit ketosis at all (although there's a bunch of other reasons for that).

Here's another thought: alcohol is known to block production of glucose in the liver. It's also known (to me anyway) to produce this weird water retention effect in the morning so I generally avoid it, but I'd consider it in small doses. Bummer is that it's hard to do controlled experiments with alcohol because they tend to get less and less controlled as they go on, so to speak! ;)

[Pasoa2000]

Anyone here eat shrimp for protein? I bought a bag yesterday, seems like they would be great for protein - lotsa protein no fat. Anything bad about them?

[geoffrey]

When is the best time of the day to use the keto stix? I know excersing effects the outcome as well as drinking ater, so when should I use them?

Geoffrey

[Zeus]

Anyone here eat shrimp for protein? I bought a bag yesterday, seems like they would be great for protein - lotsa protein no fat. Anything bad about them?

-I... don't think so... they're 0 carbs right?

When is the best time of the day to use the keto stix? I know excersing effects the outcome as well as drinking ater, so when should I use them?

-Either first thing in the morning or right before bed.

[west_on_46]

Well...

I've been able to detect ketosis after meals but if tested in-between meals it was negative. This was telling me that they were produced from the eaten fat, not from burning my own. That's the kind of ketosis that I've found to "wash out" depending on how much water you drink. Obviously no fat can be deposited from that food you've eaten, but I'd rather see the between-meals ketosis, i.e., ketones produced from my own fat, but it's much harder to reach. I've seen my running (ca. 30 min) getting that started, but even that "washes out" sometimes.

Also, I've found that Ripped Fuel Extreme induces ketosis, which is thought to be due to the effects of forskolin. I don't know whether that's a real ketosis or there's a byproduct of forskolin metabolism setting off the sticks.

[Zeus]

Also, I've found that Ripped Fuel Extreme induces ketosis, which is thought to be due to the effects of forskolin. I don't know whether that's a real ketosis or there's a byproduct of forskolin metabolism setting off the sticks.

-Where did you read this?

[west_on_46]

Someone from the lowcarb exercise list mentioned it to me. I tried it on myself and indeed, it seemed to work, although it wasn't exactly rigorous science.

For example, I'm usually not in ketosis when I get up in the morning, but after running I sometimes hit it. If I don't go running, ketones don't show until I eat something. A few times I didn't go running and just took RFE and hit ketosis in about an hour, although it was low-level and didn't last too long.

[Zeus]

A little off-topic here, but- too many people worry about whether they're in ketosis or not. I actually questioned Lyle McDonald on the matter and he had this to say- "Ketosis means very, very little- except for making your pee smell funny, don't worry about it."

[west_on_46]

That's true, but while I don't worry about it obsessively, I prefer to be in it just because it makes me feel better.

[Zeus]

I actually like seeing the lil' sticks turn purple- it turns me on (slightly).

[cmorera]

Originally posted by Zeus
I actually like seeing the lil' sticks turn purple- it turns me on (slightly).

That's nasty.

[_wilow]

I don't understand what you all are talking about when you "carb up" to get into ketosis. Am I missing something? Thanks :) Lisa

[west_on_46]

We all are talking about carbing up to, well, carb up - replenish muscle glycogen that we all then dutifully deplete by exercising. It obviously interrupts ketosis but when everything is put together in a cycle, works quite well.

[Phade]

ok i have read all hte CKD 101 but would like toask some ting that i saw mentioned here. it would seem that most of you here are already pretty thing and are just trying to get that last bit off. some one mentioned that a higher body fat would anable you to hit ketosis sooner. would you all say that would be the case. im male 21 6ft 2in. and wiegh 270. quite a bit of fat. how do i figure out my BF%? also i dont eat red meat or chicken though i still eat sea food. mayo makes me sick too.

i swim for my cardio right now cause of back, knee and foot problems (i wish i could jog and go other cardio). is swimming enough of a cardio work out? i still dont have a lot of endurence as many of you seem to. my target heart rate would be around 180 right? but i cant get it to that for more then 5 min at most. durring wimming (right now i swim half a mile) i can get it too 140 and it stays there for pretty much the whole time. another thing is i dont know tons about wieght lifting to maximise my gains i just lift wieghts 3 times a week and i make sure i feel it the next day.

i was also wondering what thermos are and what is it you guys are talking about that you use durring your morning cardio.

is the coconut oil you all talk about just a good source of fat.

right now i eat hardly any fat loads of protein and about equal carbs.

im getting a car in 2 weeks so i cant start any of this yet thats why im asking question now.

also which book do you recomend the one by Lyle (dont know the name of the book) or body opus, or would you say the info Trainerdan posted and has on his site is enough?

im not looking to become ripped or anything i just want to lose that fat and put on mustle and just be more fit. actualy i already have a crap load of muscle in some areas already for some reason.

[west_on_46]

Originally posted by Phade
ok i have read all hte CKD 101 but would like toask some ting that i saw mentioned here. it would seem that most of you here are already pretty thing and are just trying to get that last bit off. some one mentioned that a higher body fat would anable you to hit ketosis sooner. would you all say that would be the case. im male 21 6ft 2in. and wiegh 270. quite a bit of fat. how do i figure out my BF%? also i dont eat red meat or chicken though i still eat sea food. mayo makes me sick too.


Skinfold calipers are the best way - look for them on the web. Don't trust the electric impedance scales like Tanita too much. How soon will you get into ketosis - my guesses are meaningless until you try it!

Originally posted by Phade
my target heart rate would be around 180 right? but i cant get it to that for more then 5 min at most. durring wimming (right now i swim half a mile) i can get it too 140 and it stays there for pretty much the whole time. another thing is i dont know tons about wieght lifting to maximise my gains i just lift wieghts 3 times a week and i make sure i feel it the next day.


Target rate is (220-age)*(fudge factor). The fudge factor is lots talked about - the advocates of "long duration/low intensity cardio for fat loss" method will tell you 0.6-0.7, while those interested in speed, performance, or other training that involves intensity - 0.8-0.85. I've never heard of anyone recommending higher for anything other than intervals, but those are not 5 min long - 60 sec at most.

[Phade]

i dont understand your last part West could you explain it. me being 21 that would be 199 for my heart rate i dont have the endurence for that. i wouldnt be able to get to that nor keep like that for a half hour to an hour.

[west_on_46]

Originally posted by Phade
i dont understand your last part West could you explain it. me being 21 that would be 199 for my heart rate i dont have the endurence for that. i wouldnt be able to get to that nor keep like that for a half hour to an hour.

If you are 21, then:

absolute max heart rate is 220-21=199

DON'T go there! Your exercise max should be (absolute) * (percentage). The percentage depends on your goals and kind of training. Check with TrainerDan on this, but my understanding is that sustainable long-duration cardio should be done at 70% or so, which is

199 * 70% = 139

High-intensity cardio training, such as intervals or sprints, may be done at 80-85%, which is 159-169 bpm respectively. The duration of this kind of training should be relatively low.

[Phade]

cool when i swim i can get it to 140 easy and it stays there and its not to difficult either anymore. i was gonna be doubling my time/ distence to 50 min. / 1 mile. right now i do 1/2 mile in 25 min and have around 140 for at least 3/4 of the swim. it took me a bit to get to that but im there now and it seems that im doing the right thing then for my heart rate, cool :D :D . thank you west very much. :D