Tracing Cw4-B35

[Philip Dei]

It has been brought to the table the west eurasians might have
immigrated from indonesia to the west via a circuitous route.
Not that I a looking to disclaim this, taking a break from
trying to reconstitute haplotypes.

The Cw4-B35 2 gene Haplotype is one of the oldest and most
distinquishable haplotypes in western eurasia.

Listed below are the countries were this 2 gene haplotype is
the most common. From International Histocompatibility
Workshop. 1991. *, **, *** means highest, 2nd highest or 3 rd
highest frequency haplotype.

Albania 7.6* Armenia 7.1*** Austria 11.2** Basque 5.0 Belgium
5.5** British 8.5** Cornish 5.4 Czech 7.2** Dane 5.7*** French
7.3* German 6.0*** Greek 13.5* Grk(CBL) 4.4 Italian 14.4*
Polish 10.0* Portug 10.1* Romani 8.2 Sardin 9.4** Spanish
6.7** Swedish 7.1*** Ukrn(CBL)4.3 Uralic 5.6*** Yugo 3.5
HUngar 10.5** Slovak 9.7** Indian 9.4* Bharga 3.0 cw7-3.8,
cw11-3.0, cw1-2.0 Iyers 12.3* Tribal 8.0 cw6-2.0 Japan 0.4
cw9-6.0, CBL-1.5, cw7-0.3 korea 1.0 cw9-3.6, CBL-1.7(Cw9 com
in region)
N. Han -.- cw9-1.4
O. Han 1.8 Miao _._ Thais 1.4 VietNam 3.4 Javanese 8.8***
Timorese 3.8 CBL-2.1 Singapor -.- Maori -.- NAmerind18.6*
(no derivatives) Tlinglit 8.8 NatBraz 15.9** SAmerInd
8.1*** cw1-10.6 ** (See Bhargavas) Hui -.- Li -.- IMongol
1.9 Buriat -.- Cw9-2.2 Mongol 2.5 CBL-2.2 Kazak -.- Uygar
-.- Tibet 2.9 Manchu 1.3 Cw9-2.4, Cw7-1.1 Orochon 2.7
Cw9-3.4 Taiwan -.- Cw6-5.7, Cw7-2.8 Inuit 4.3 Yakut 7.0
AustAbor 2.0

Africans also possess these haplotype (if I don't list the
group then there is not haplotype) Zaire 2.5 CBL-2.1
P.Africa 7.6 CBL-2.2 Senegal 8.9
Q.Afric 9.0 CBL 4.9, Cw9-2.1

I am going to arrange these to get the most like arrangements.

NAmerind18.6* (no derivatives) NatBraz 15.9**(no derivatives)
Italian 14.4* Greek 13.5* CBL-4.4 Iyers 12.3* Austria 11.2**
Polish 10.0* Portug 10.1* Hungar 10.5** Slovak 9.7** Indian
9.4* Sardin 9.4** Senegal 8.9* Javanese 8.8*** Tlinglit 8.8
British 8.5** Romani 8.2 Albania 7.6* French 7.3* Czech 7.2**
Swedish 7.1*** Armenia 7.1*** Yakut 7.0*** Spanish 6.7**
German 6.0*** Basque 5.0 Belgium 5.5** Cornish 5.4 Dane 5.7***
Uralic 5.6*** Inuit 4.3 Ukrn(CBL)4.3 Yugo 3.5 VietNam 3.4
AustAbor 2.0
R. Han 1.8 Thais 1.4

Bharga 3.0 cw7-3.8, cw11-3.0, cw1-2.0 Taiwan -.- Cw6-5.7,
Cw7-2.8 Tribal 8.0 cw6-2.0

Greek 13.5* CBL-4.4
S.Africa 7.6 CBL-2.2 Mongol 2.5 CBL-2.2 Zaire 2.5 CBL-2.1
Timorese 3.8 CBL-2.1

Manchu 1.3 Cw9-2.4, Cw7-1.1 Bharga 3.0 cw7-3.8, cw11-3.0,
cw1-2.0 SAmerInd 8.1*** cw1-10.6 ** (See Bhargavas) Tibet 2.9
IMongol 1.9

T.Afric 9.0 CBL 4.9, Cw9-2.1 Japan 0.4 Cw9-6.0, CBL-1.5,
cw7-0.3 Manchu 1.3 Cw9-2.4, Cw7-1.1 korea 1.0 Cw9-3.6,
CBL-1.7(Cw9 com in region) Orochon 2.7 Cw9-3.4 Buriat
-.- Cw9-2.2
U. Han -.- Cw9-1.4 Kazak -.- Uygar -.- Hui -.- Li -.- Singapor
-.- Maori -.- Miao -.-

Africans also possess these haplotype (if I don't list the
group then there is not haplotype)

There have been 2 suppositions made, that Western Eurasia was
settle from Melanesia, Likewise Japan.

As you get closer to indonesia the Cw4-B35 drop to zero, and
the 2.0 percent in australoaborigines can be explained by
interbreeding with european derived australians in which the
haplotype frequency is 7.1%, maybe not all but the
precolumbian frequence is probably below 1%.

Secondarily we can see that the senegalese frequecies and
diversity sits right in the middle of the west eurasian
frequency spread. The only exception in this are the
Javanese, who have some strange relationship with the group
know as the Iyers.

The Bhargavas may be derived from western eurasia or from east
africa, the gene frequencies are not presented.

The greeks have the most similarity with N. africans which can
be explained by the combined effect of W.african origin and
Intermixture with the greeks who had a number of colonies in
North africa.

The line created by Cw4/B35 is sharp cutting diagonally across
india and up to korea and stopping. With a few exception
(Java) this trend is more or less absolute. The Barhavas are
beleived to be of central asian origin thus it is possible
they represent a separate point of origin, but the cw1 could
be the result of that point of origin or seperate
combinations. The cw9 Allele in Japan could be of seperate
origin by recombination in the east, or derived via a more
direct route from _Western_ africa (as in Nigeria and Niger).

This haplotype data large concurs with the mtDNA data
suggesting that lines from africa did not 'go half way around
the world' and then come into europe, but that these lines
went directly from west or northern africa into western
eurasia. And those lines then extended themselves into eastern
asia by migration.

There will be more on this haplotype later. I just want to
confront what I think is a developing politically motivated
fallicy by a member of this group.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Pete]

on Fri, 17 May 2002 12:33:06 -0500, Philip Deitiker
<pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> sez:

[...] ` ` The Cw4-B35 2 gene Haplotype is one of the oldest `
and most distinquishable haplotypes in western ` eurasia. ` `
Listed below are the countries were this 2 gene ` haplotype is
the most common. ` From International Histocompatibility
Workshop. ` 1991. *, **, *** means highest, 2nd highest or 3 `
rd highest frequency haplotype. ` ` Albania 7.6* ` Armenia
7.1*** ` Austria 11.2** ` Basque 5.0 ` Belgium 5.5** ` British
8.5** ` Cornish 5.4 ` Czech 7.2** ` Dane 5.7*** ` French 7.3*
` German 6.0*** ` Greek 13.5* ` Grk(CBL) 4.4 ` Italian 14.4* `
Polish 10.0* ` Portug 10.1* ` Romani 8.2 ` Sardin 9.4** `
Spanish 6.7** ` Swedish 7.1*** ` Ukrn(CBL)4.3 ` Uralic 5.6***
` Yugo 3.5 ` HUngar 10.5** ` Slovak 9.7** ` Indian 9.4* `
Bharga 3.0 cw7-3.8, cw11-3.0, cw1-2.0 ` Iyers 12.3* ` Tribal
8.0 cw6-2.0 ` Japan 0.4 cw9-6.0, CBL-1.5, cw7-0.3 ` korea 1.0
cw9-3.6, CBL-1.7(Cw9 com in region) ` N. Han -.- cw9-1.4 ` S.
Han 1.8 ` Miao _._ ` Thais 1.4 ` VietNam 3.4 ` Javanese 8.8***
` Timorese 3.8 CBL-2.1 ` Singapor -.- ` Maori -.- `
NAmerind18.6* (no derivatives) ` Tlinglit 8.8 ` NatBraz 15.9**
` SAmerInd 8.1*** cw1-10.6 ** (See Bhargavas) ` Hui -.- ` Li
-.- ` IMongol 1.9 ` Buriat -.- Cw9-2.2 ` Mongol 2.5 CBL-2.2 `
Kazak -.- ` Uygar -.- ` Tibet 2.9 ` Manchu 1.3 Cw9-2.4,
Cw7-1.1 ` Orochon 2.7 Cw9-3.4 ` Taiwan -.- Cw6-5.7, Cw7-2.8 `
Inuit 4.3 ` Yakut 7.0 ` AustAbor 2.0 [...] ` ` There have been
2 suppositions made, that Western ` Eurasia was settle from
Melanesia, Likewise Japan. ` ` As you get closer to indonesia
the Cw4-B35 drop to ` zero, and the 2.0 percent in
australoaborigines ` can be explained by interbreeding with
european ` derived australians in which the haplotype `
frequency is 7.1%, maybe not all but the ` precolumbian
frequence is probably below 1%. ` [...] ` ` The line created
by Cw4/B35 is sharp cutting ` diagonally across india and up
to korea and ` stopping. With a few exception (Java) this
trend ` is more or less absolute.

That data list seems to have a huge hole in the region of
southwest asia and the middle east, which is inconveniently
right through where you want to draw your line. We have Yugo.
(and region), Ukraine, and Kazak, and India, but no other "
'istans", nor arab countries. Would be nice to know what's
going on there, as it's sort of the crux of the biscuit. If
frequencies are very low throughout that region, do we
conclude that movement from africa into europe was via the
western med? Get more data. dammit.

--
==========================================================================

vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

[Paul Kekai]

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:<u2baeugd43mcf0e3sjadvp7cvouh9sbqh3@4ax.com>...
>
>
> This haplotype data large concurs with the mtDNA data
> suggesting that lines from africa did not 'go half way
> around the world' and then come into europe, but that these
> lines went directly from west or northern africa into
> western eurasia. And those lines then extended themselves
> into eastern asia by migration.
>

You seem to be only interested in finding evidence of
non-historic European migration into Asia.

Why not trace the markers of *historical* migration from East
Asia into Europe? There must be at least a few.

Starting in the Scythian period where there is a clear link
with Pazyryk people. The Huns (Hsiung-nu), Avars, Kumans,
Turks and Mongols. More than 2,000 years of migrations from
people who trace their origins in the Altai should have left
at least some markers.

These people overlapped in NE Asia, Japan and probably also
Korea with Austronesian people at different periods. It may be
through this overlap that we see the connection of haplotypes
out into Oceania.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Philip Dei]

>That data list seems to have a huge hole in the region of
>southwest asia and the middle east, which is inconveniently
>right through where you want to draw your line. We have Yugo.
>(and region), Ukraine, and Kazak, and India, but no other "
>'istans", nor arab countries. Would be nice to know what's
>going on there, as it's sort of the crux of the biscuit. If
>frequencies are very low throughout that region, do we
>conclude that movement from africa into europe was via the
>western med? Get more data. dammit.

12th workshop is going on right on, within 6 months we should
know if anything was added.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Bob Keeter]

in article ac3v2q$o06$2@nntp.itservices.ubc.ca, pete at
vincent@triumfunspam.ca wrote on 5/17/02 5:09 PM:

Snippage... . . . . . . .

>
> That data list seems to have a huge hole in the region of
> southwest asia and the middle east, which is inconveniently
> right through where you want to draw your line. We have
> Yugo. (and region), Ukraine, and Kazak, and India, but no
> other " 'istans", nor arab countries. Would be nice to know
> what's going on there, as it's sort of the crux of the
> biscuit. If frequencies are very low throughout that region,
> do we conclude that movement from africa into europe was via
> the western med? Get more data. dammit.
>

Good catch! I had not noticed that little gap you
mentioned! 8-(

Since the straights of Gibraltar broke through and the Med
flooded (recent only in a geological sense I think!) the only
way from north Africa to western Europe DID reach through the
middle east. With the straights being DEEP water, any dips in
the sea level sufficient for a euro-african "beringia" would
be hard to imagine. That direct contact between Europe and
Africa would be very difficult to imagine given the quite
strong currents in the straits, at it would be until the
sea-farers showed up in the late Neolythic. By then I think
its way too recent to match up with Philip's agenda. 8-(

Data is a good thing. Lets just hope that it matches up with
the paleo-geography! ;-)

Oh well!

[Philip Dei]

On 17 May 2002 15:57:36 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>You seem to be only interested in finding evidence of
>non-historic European migration into Asia.

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, actually not, I am really
sorry you cannot accept the facts.

>Why not trace the markers of *historical* migration from East
>Asia into Europe? There must be at least a few.

Okey dokey smokey, you asked for it.

I used the haplotype set Ax Cwy Bz A perfect match of western
eurasian or australoaboriginal got the score for the pop
(divided by cumulative haplotype frequency) and accumulated.
There are low frequency WEU markers in Australo population
because of europeanization, I traced these haplotypes and
confirmed their origin, but I did not remove them, just to
give you the benefit of all possible doubts. 2/3 matches gave
a score of .666 times the rel. Hap frequency to the column.
1/3 matches gave 0. In addition, in order to remove doubt
about sample size I was generally tolerant of 2/3 matched in
Australo aboriginal population _IF_ it seemed likely more
sample resulted in a match (IOW the third part of the trio was
in relatively high frequency).

WEU Australo
N. Afr 0.60 0.10 Senegal 0.68 0.15
O. afr. 0.56 0.18 Zaire 0.40 0.25 They did not include east
africans, but I am relatively sure the australos would take
east african.

IndonHighL 0.27 0.79 *Some Ind Afr Ori Albania 0.97 0.28
Ukranian 0.92 0.31 Uralic 0.65 0.37 *Some Ind Afr Ori Indian
0.64 0.33 Bahrgavas 0.32 0.22 -This population has about 1/3
of its elements with direct ties to africa (IOW no connectors
in EA) Iyers 0.64 0.44 Mexican 0.83 0.32 -Note even the NA
specific alleles tend to favor WEA origin. Japanese 0.52 0.45
-Note some Japanese haplotypes (>0.08) favor a transition via
Bahrgavas or direct african connection (no detected transition
in EA). In addition some of the lower frequency alleles will
tend to favor AA over WEA, however 50% of the haplotypes
accounted for _AT MINIMUM_ the Japanese should have recieved
>27% of the Ax CwX BX from western eurasia. But given the fact
that we have not corrected the austalo aboriginal for WEA
recent adds, WEA contribution is probably around 50%. The same
can be said for Mexico.

*Note, if the numbers do not equal 1 its because australos
have some WEA markers, which I did not remove because I
don't really want to fight with Paul about this, in reality
the australo would be lower scores than the above. Also if
we 1.2 - (WEA
+ AA) = theoretical amount of haplotypes independent derived
from africa. Or in the case of Zaire from itself or other
areas of africa.

>Starting in the Scythian period where there is a clear link
>with Pazyryk people. The Huns (Hsiung-nu)

The huns are from western china, and they intermixed heavily
with people as they traveled east, heavily diluting the east
asian charater. Western China has discoveries of 'romanian'
like people. BTW, the historians have been arguing for as long
as I can remember that the scythians were indoeuropean, some
folks think they are progenitors to the slavs. You can tilt
the little windmills in whatever favor you like. But direct
motions from SE asia a very rare commodity, and motions
detected already intermixed to the west. Its of little wonder
we don't find SE asian markers in WEA.

> Avars, Kumans,
> Turks and Mongols.

Turks are varying mixtures of eastern and western haplotypes,
mongols also. I have eastern turks working in my group. They
are definitely more west eurasian than SE asian.Your talking
about the mixing of people on this side of the 'diagonal' with
other peoples on this side of the 'diagonal'.

> More than 2,000 years of migrations from people who trace
> their origins in the Altai should have left at least some
> markers.

Yes, they did, the DR12 marker and a few other markers are
probably of mostly SE asia origin, DR12 seems to mark the
invasion of the celts, so I suspect that true SE asians or
Indians had intermixed. However I had to look very hard to
find a marker that tracted the celts, most of what the celts
brought through the central europe was redundant with what was
brought by the greeks via the romans. But there are a couple
of instances. There are also a couple of east asian looking
markers are low frequence in germany and austria, poland has a
number of out of place haplotypes also. But as far as
penetrating and leaving strong evidence in england, sweden,
spain or portugal, I am afriad you have to scrape the bottom
of haplotype frequencies to see them.

I'm sorry dude but your hypothesis flat faced into the mud.
There is a convincing connection between WEA and west africa,
and as a good connection be WEA and Japan as between australo
and Japan. Altaic peoples show some markers from africa or
india of a recent nature, the population may have been more
south when these migrants traveled across the continent.

>These people overlapped in NE Asia, Japan and probably also
>Korea with Austronesian people at different periods. It may
>be through this overlap that we see the connection of
>haplotypes out into Oceania.

Japans haplotypes are a mixture, that mixture cannot account
for haplotypes in west, unless you argue people migrated from
West africa to Japan, and then migrated back to WEA. In
addition many west asian markers are not found east of the
ural mountains, like the A1 B8 combinations.

If we apply Occam's razor the simplist hypothesis that
explains this is the one to use. That is that africans
traveled directly to three places that the data accounts for:

1. Sardinia
2. Spain, Portugal-> france
3. Italy
4. 2 travel to britian, 2 and 3 traveled to austria and
beyond, 1 was involved in the repopulation after the last
ice age (with 2 and small amount of 3)

Via a western route, the data is so strong in favor of this I
can't imagine anyone so stupid to question the weight of all
these haplotypes.

Secondarily. As culture suggests there was a migration up the
east coast of asia that originally settled Japan. The
numberous low frequency markers that 'associate' Japan with
melansian populations are a testimony of this. There are also
some low frequency markers from africa or direct from india,
most are not found in korea. It is possible that the WEA
hooked up with a third party in Asia and then settled Japan
and/or korea in waves.

BTW, this particular comparison would argue that australo's
left africa before WEA did, just thought I'de mention that. If
one is basing the 'exodus' on average time, since WEA retain
alot of similarity to West Africans, Whereas AA seems to have
lost all of the african haplotypes by recombination. I might
have to change my opinion of WEA settling, it may have been
more recent, at minimum the population staged in sardinia.
This so-called AMH culture that seems to be the pride and joy
of europe may have evolved in NW africa or sardinia 10s of
millenium before it arrived in europe.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Paul Kekai]

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:<2jkbeu89ln8cgeu0eqmef45rbobdpfmtog@4ax.com>...
> On 17 May 2002 15:57:36 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
>
> >You seem to be only interested in finding evidence of
> >non-historic European migration into Asia.
>
> I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, actually not, I am
> really sorry you cannot accept the facts.
>
> >Why not trace the markers of *historical* migration from
> >East Asia into Europe? There must be at least a few.
>
> Okey dokey smokey, you asked for it.
>
>

What I asked for was evidence of East Asian migration into
Europe, not another version of your Ice Age caucasians. Do you
have a one-track mind?

As I suspected you shifted from a pseudo-geographic arugment
to your real focus -- race.

> -Note some Japanese haplotypes (>0.08) favor a transition
> via Bahrgavas or direct african connection (no detected
> transition in EA). In addition some of the lower frequency
> alleles will tend to favor AA over WEA, however 50% of the
> haplotypes accounted for _AT MINIMUM_ the Japanese should
> have recieved >27% of the Ax CwX BX from western eurasia.
> But given the fact that we have not corrected the austalo
> aboriginal for WEA recent adds, WEA contribution is
> probably around 50%. The same can be said for Mexico.
>

I hope you're not suggesting the Kennewick-style "we whites
were here first, only to be conquered by nasty Mongoloids."

All Amerinds have a single Y chromosome founding gene DYS199
that comes in two transitions DYS199 T, by far the most common
and found outside the Western hemisphere only among
stereotypic mongoloid Siberians.

The other allele is DYS199 C found outside Amerinds only in
stereotypic mongoloid NE Chinese and Tibetans.

The first wave probably has general Asian, and not stereotypic
caucasian features. This would include Sundadonty, which is
characteristic of stereotypic southern mongoloids of the
present-day.

The second wave has more specialized Asian features including
Sinodonty probably developed in isolation in the north (after
the southern migration out of africa).

Both waves are likely the result of mixing of NE Asian
land-based elements probably related to Altaic speakers, and
Austronesian speakers who come up around the beginning fo the
Holocene to NE Asia. This would explain Sundadonty and the
Austronesian-like maritime hunting culture recovered from NE
Asian sites at this time.

Both waves came directly from NE Asia to the W. hemisphere, no
European connection where DYS199 is absent.

The second wave is mainly limited to far north and is not an
all-conquering female attack from Alaska to Patagonia on
Kennewick white males.

> >Starting in the Scythian period where there is a clear link
> >with Pazyryk people. The Huns (Hsiung-nu)
>
> The huns are from western china, and they intermixed heavily
> with people as they traveled east, heavily diluting the east
> asian charater. Western China has discoveries of 'romanian'
> like people. BTW, the historians have been arguing for as
> long as I can remember that the scythians were indoeuropean,
> some folks think they are progenitors to the slavs. You can
> tilt the little windmills in whatever favor you like. But
> direct motions from SE asia a very rare commodity, and
> motions detected already intermixed to the west. Its of
> little wonder we don't find SE asian markers in WEA.
>
> > Avars, Kumans,
> > Turks and Mongols.
>
> Turks are varying mixtures of eastern and western
> haplotypes, mongols also. I have eastern turks working in my
> group. They are definitely more west eurasian than SE
> asian.Your talking about the mixing of people on this side
> of the 'diagonal' with other peoples on this side of the
> 'diagonal'.
>

Here you're shifting into your racial argument from an
originally pseudo-geographical one. Turks and Mongols come
from the Altai which is in East Asia. They reached as far as
the Pacific coast and even Japan.

The Pazyryk Scythians were most closely related osteologically
and genetically to the present inhabitants of the Altai, again
not stereotypic caucasian but specialized mongoloid instead.

> > More than 2,000 years of migrations from people who trace
> > their origins in the Altai should have left at least some
> > markers.
>
> Yes, they did, the DR12 marker and a few other markers are
> probably of mostly SE asia origin, DR12 seems to mark the
> invasion of the celts, so I suspect that true SE asians or
> Indians had intermixed. However I had to look very hard to
> find a marker that tracted the celts, most of what the celts
> brought through the central europe was redundant with what
> was brought by the greeks via the romans. But there are a
> couple of instances.
>

Now you're coyly slipping into your yes migrations from East
Asia occured but hey these guys were stereotypic caucasian
already. 'We are pure' thou declarest.

Again, betraying the real racial motives for your allele
hunting.

Not convincing. There is a physical cline toward stereotypic
mongoloid as one goes east in Europe starting right at Bavaria
into Russia although it has its strongest pocket from the
Swiss Alps to Czechoslavakia. Round heads, projecting
zygomatic arches, robust mandibles, broad faces, etc.

Please don't shift into the 'we are highly variable' argument.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Philip Dei]

On 18 May 2002 03:12:42 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>What I asked for was evidence of East Asian migration into
>Europe, not another version of your Ice Age caucasians. Do
>you have a one-track mind?

You want me to bias the data in order to shift.

Say for example the C2 cw10 B60 is not found outside of africa
(in eurasia) except cornwall (defining haplotype) and Japan
(low frequency). Now what you want me to do is say hey even
though Japan is at a much lower frequency, I should make this
haplotype travel from east to west.

>As I suspected you shifted from a pseudo-geographic arugment
>to your real focus -- race.

Is the 'race' word, the one you are using to blindfold
yourself, suit yourself.

>> -Note some Japanese haplotypes (>0.08) favor a transition
>> via Bahrgavas or direct african connection (no detected
>> transition in EA). In addition some of the lower
>> frequency alleles will tend to favor AA over WEA, however
>> 50% of the haplotypes accounted for _AT MINIMUM_ the
>> Japanese should have recieved >27% of the Ax CwX BX from
>> western eurasia. But given the fact that we have not
>> corrected the austalo aboriginal for WEA recent adds, WEA
>> contribution is probably around 50%. The same can be said
>> for Mexico.

>I hope you're not suggesting the Kennewick-style "we whites
>were here first, only to be conquered by nasty Mongoloids."

No actually I believe the melanesians settled both Japan with
continental asians 35 to 45 kya, and then migrated to the new
world first, you can see the strongest traces of this in the
endemic south american population. But I also think that the
line between the WEA dominance and MEL shifted between 18 and
11 kya, rather rapidly to the east, and also after this to the
south. While there are traces of WEA in groups like Maori, I
think the movement of the WEA south along the ryukyu was a
probably as a hybrid culture of melanesians and WEA that
initially formed in kysushu, and as a hybrid culture had some
mobility advantages over the groups present.

>All Amerinds have a single Y chromosome founding gene DYS199
>that comes in two transitions DYS199 T, by far the most
>common and found outside the Western hemisphere only among
>stereotypic mongoloid Siberians.

Then came kenniwick man.

>The other allele is DYS199 C found outside Amerinds only in
>stereotypic mongoloid NE Chinese and Tibetans.
>
>The first wave probably has general Asian, and not
>stereotypic caucasian features. This would include
>Sundadonty, which is characteristic of stereotypic southern
>mongoloids of the present-day.

Y chromosome evolves really to slowly as I told Gisele a
single mutation, by itself, means nothing. YOu cant have a
statistic of 1.

>The Pazyryk Scythians were most closely related
>osteologically and genetically to the present inhabitants of
>the Altai, again not stereotypic caucasian but specialized
>mongoloid instead.

Redefining the wheel, 7000 years agor the 'stereotypcial'
caucasian lived in britian. You know when I introduced the SC
term I thought this should be so simple even Paul would
understand this, but as it turns out, he can't. 7000 years ago
the 'stereotypical' West eurasian would look like a cross
between a romanian, a southern italian and a basque, excluding
the ilses. Now you don't here me arguing that the scythians
were british do you. OK, so now that we have some sense how
different are the Altai from caucasians, they are way this
side of the line.

>Now you're coyly slipping into your yes migrations from East
>Asia occured but hey these guys were stereotypic caucasian
>already. 'We are pure' thou declarest.

If you cant stand the heat, son, get your ass out of the
kitchen.

>Not convincing. There is a physical cline toward stereotypic
>mongoloid as one goes east in Europe starting right at
>Bavaria into Russia although it has its strongest pocket from
>the Swiss Alps to Czechoslavakia. Round heads, projecting
>zygomatic arches, robust mandibles, broad faces, etc.

The left behind group. We traced the mtDNA haplotpyes,
obviously of west eurasian origins with ties to sardinia and
senegal right through the swiss alps into upper and western
mongol regions. How much genetic evidence do you need?

>Please don't shift into the 'we are highly variable'
>argument.

I won't, how about the "you should go out an buy a a
clue", mode.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Gisele Hor]

On 18 May 2002 03:12:42 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

[...]

>All Amerinds have a single Y chromosome founding gene DYS199
>that comes in two transitions DYS199 T, by far the most
>common and found outside the Western hemisphere only among
>stereotypic mongoloid Siberians.

>The other allele is DYS199 C found outside Amerinds only in
>stereotypic mongoloid NE Chinese and Tibetans.

Paul, the information you are providing here is inconsistent
with what has been provided in peer-reviewed journals. Native
Americans and some NE Asians, whose ancestors likely came from
the Americas, have the DYS199T allele. The rest of humanity,
as far as is presently known, have DYS199C. This suggests that
the DYS199C-->T mutation occurred within the New World.

Gisele

[Paul Kekai]

g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
news:<3ce67d4d.1395301@shawnews>...
> On 18 May 2002 03:12:42 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >All Amerinds have a single Y chromosome founding gene
> >DYS199 that comes in two transitions DYS199 T, by far the
> >most common and found outside the Western hemisphere only
> >among stereotypic mongoloid Siberians.
>
> >The other allele is DYS199 C found outside Amerinds only in
> >stereotypic mongoloid NE Chinese and Tibetans.
>
> Paul, the information you are providing here is inconsistent
> with what has been provided in peer-reviewed journals.
> Native Americans and some NE Asians, whose ancestors likely
> came from the Americas, have the DYS199T allele.

I think you have it the other way around.

Most of the studies appear to suggest that the allele arose
either in Siberia or Beringia.

It makes very good sense, using the two-wave model. Or else
where are secondary Y chromosome lineages?

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Paul Kekai]

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:<fbsceuk7spk6489nbhe4o4r27g5bkoo2ql@4ax.com>...
> On 18 May 2002 03:12:42 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
>
> >What I asked for was evidence of East Asian migration into
> >Europe, not another version of your Ice Age caucasians. Do
> >you have a one-track mind?
>
> You want me to bias the data in order to shift.
>

So you're saying there is no evidence of East Asian migration
into Europe? Historical invasion after invasion and you can't
find anything. Probably never tried. You're to digging up
"evidence" of mythical caucasian migrations.

> >All Amerinds have a single Y chromosome founding gene
> >DYS199 that comes in two transitions DYS199 T, by far the
> >most common and found outside the Western hemisphere only
> >among stereotypic mongoloid Siberians.
>
> Then came kenniwick man.

> >The Pazyryk Scythians were most closely related
> >osteologically and genetically to the present inhabitants
> >of the Altai, again not stereotypic caucasian but
> >specialized mongoloid instead.
>
> Redefining the wheel, 7000 years agor the 'stereotypcial'
> caucasian lived in britian. You know when I introduced the
> SC term I thought this should be so simple even Paul would
> understand this, but as it turns out, he can't. 7000 years
> ago the 'stereotypical' West eurasian would look like a
> cross between a romanian, a southern italian and a basque,
> excluding the ilses. Now you don't here me arguing that the
> scythians were british do you. OK, so now that we have some
> sense how different are the Altai from caucasians, they are
> way this side of the line.
>

You seem to be using your own definition of "steretypic
caucasian." Caucasian is a racial term. That's how it is
widely understood and that appears to be the way you are using
it.

Otherwise, you wouldn't have introduced such an inappropriate
term even sending it back to 40 kya.

> >Not convincing. There is a physical cline toward
> >stereotypic mongoloid as one goes east in Europe starting
> >right at Bavaria into Russia although it has its strongest
> >pocket from the Swiss Alps to Czechoslavakia. Round heads,
> >projecting zygomatic arches, robust mandibles, broad
> >faces, etc.
>
> The left behind group. We traced the mtDNA haplotpyes,
> obviously of west eurasian origins with ties to sardinia and
> senegal right through the swiss alps into upper and western
> mongol regions. How much genetic evidence do you need?
>

Left behind group? Why would a stereotypic caucasian group
leave mongoloid traits in the Swiss Alps. Still avoiding the
simple explanation.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Gisele Hor]

On 18 May 2002 15:50:16 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
>news:<3ce67d4d.1395301@shawnews>...
>> On 18 May 2002 03:12:42 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
>> Manansala) wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >All Amerinds have a single Y chromosome founding gene
>> >DYS199 that comes in two transitions DYS199 T, by far the
>> >most common and found outside the Western hemisphere only
>> >among stereotypic mongoloid Siberians.
>>
>> >The other allele is DYS199 C found outside Amerinds only
>> >in stereotypic mongoloid NE Chinese and Tibetans.
>>
>> Paul, the information you are providing here is
>> inconsistent with what has been provided in peer-reviewed
>> journals. Native Americans and some NE Asians, whose
>> ancestors likely came from the Americas, have the DYS199T
>> allele.
>
>I think you have it the other way around.
>
>Most of the studies appear to suggest that the allele arose
>either in Siberia or Beringia.

*Some* researchers have suggested this but they have never
been able to support their position. On the other hand, the
existence of Native American admixture in NE Asia can be
demonstrated in several different ways.

>It makes very good sense, using the two-wave model. Or else
>where are secondary Y chromosome lineages?

"secondary Y chromosome lineages"?

Gisele

[Philip Dei]

On Sun, 19 May 2002 02:25:48 GMT, g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele
Horvat) wrote:

>>I think you have it the other way around.
>>
>>Most of the studies appear to suggest that the allele arose
>>either in Siberia or Beringia.
>
>*Some* researchers have suggested this but they have never
>been able to support their position. On the other hand, the
>existence of Native American admixture in NE Asia can be
>demonstrated in several different ways.
>
>>It makes very good sense, using the two-wave model. Or else
>>where are secondary Y chromosome lineages?
>
>"secondary Y chromosome lineages"?

Gisele, don't waste your time arguing with this guy he's
already made up his mind what he wants to see and screw
everything else. His contention, now, that the mutation
appeared in siberia or beringia is consistent with either a
australo path, a west eurasian path or a combination of the
two, so by his own admission his data has no bearing on what
the haplotype information has given.

Why is it that under every stone and lurking behind every
reasonably just scientific thread their are always a bunch
of roaches waiting of the dark of night to come scurrying
about. I really don't care whether WEA or austalo's brought
X, Y of Z to new world.

I know that some people want to hide their 10,000 year old
ancestors deep in the ground so that science on the matter
cannot see the day, but you can't hide genes, there are 12
billion copies of each individuals HLA in the human
population, some of those are going to be managed to be
Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Paul Kekai]

g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
news:<3ce7045b.35974682@shawnews>...
> On 18 May 2002 15:50:16 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
> >g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
> >news:<3ce67d4d.1395301@shawnews>...
> >> On 18 May 2002 03:12:42 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> >> Manansala) wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> >All Amerinds have a single Y chromosome founding gene
> >> >DYS199 that comes in two transitions DYS199 T, by far
> >> >the most common and found outside the Western hemisphere
> >> >only among stereotypic mongoloid Siberians.
>
> >> >The other allele is DYS199 C found outside Amerinds only
> >> >in stereotypic mongoloid NE Chinese and Tibetans.
> >>
> >> Paul, the information you are providing here is
> >> inconsistent with what has been provided in peer-reviewed
> >> journals. Native Americans and some NE Asians, whose
> >> ancestors likely came from the Americas, have the DYS199T
> >> allele.
> >
> >I think you have it the other way around.
> >
> >Most of the studies appear to suggest that the allele arose
> >either in Siberia or Beringia.
>
> *Some* researchers have suggested this but they have never
> been able to support their position. On the other hand, the
> existence of Native American admixture in NE Asia can be
> demonstrated in several different ways.

Well, of course, there is also an enormous amount of genetic
and other evidence that Amerind speakers migrated originally
from NE Asia.

>
> >It makes very good sense, using the two-wave model. Or else
> >where are secondary Y chromosome lineages?
>
> "secondary Y chromosome lineages"?
>

According to the two-wave migration model used by several
schools of thought. According to the Kennwiccans, the original
was "stereotypic caucasian" while the secondary wave was
Mongoloid. This second wave should not have possessed the T
allele, but instead should have shown strong East Asian
affinities that would have displaced the earlier "Europoid"
migrants throughout the entire two continents (since no
"original" Kennewick blondes survived).

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Paul Kekai]

pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote in message
news:<3ec84f11.192022@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> On Sun, 19 May 2002 02:25:48 GMT, g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele
> Horvat) wrote:
>

I really don't care whether WEA or austalo's brought
> X, Y of Z to new world.
>

What is an austalo? Do you mean an Austro-melanesian? Btw,
Austromelanesians are not another form of "Caucasoid" if
that's what you are trying to suggest (the infamous dark
white theory).

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Gisele Hor]

On 19 May 2002 08:48:05 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

[...]
>... there is also an enormous amount of genetic and
>other evidence that Amerind speakers migrated originally
>from NE Asia.

No. It has always been known that Native Americans came from
NE Asia and so evidence supportive of this position has been
unnecessary. The focus of all of the articles, on the subject,
is the location of that evidence today. Hence, with the sole
exception of the y chromosome haplotype we have been
discussing, every single correlation between Native Americans
and Asians has been presented by someone or other as
indicative of the source of Native Americans. This is why
almost every corner of Asia has been highlighted, to date.

>> >It makes very good sense, using the two-wave model. Or
>> >else where are secondary Y chromosome lineages?
>>
>> "secondary Y chromosome lineages"?

>According to the two-wave migration model used by several
>schools of thought. According to the Kennwiccans, the
>original was "stereotypic caucasian" while the secondary wave
>was Mongoloid. This second wave should not have possessed the
>T allele, but instead should have shown strong East Asian
>affinities that would have displaced the earlier "Europoid"
>migrants throughout the entire two continents (since no
>"original" Kennewick blondes survived).

Before any migration models should even be discussed, the
correlations between all of the multidisciplinary studies
should be identified. Which mtDNA findings go with which Y
chromosome?, with which craniometric? with which
archaeological? Until this is done, there will continue to be
little certainty about the source of Native Americans except
for the original presumption (which never had to be
demonstrated in the first place), IMO.

Gisele

[Philip Dei]

On 19 May 2002 08:50:56 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>What is an austalo? Do you mean an Austro-melanesian? Btw,
>Austromelanesians are not another form of "Caucasoid" if
>that's what you are trying to suggest (the infamous dark
>white theory).

Thank you Paul for this, you just made my Kill-File. Philip
[pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu] http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Paul Kekai]

g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
news:<3ce7f6c5.9539410@shawnews>...
> On 19 May 2002 08:48:05 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:

> No. It has always been known that Native Americans came from
> NE Asia and so evidence supportive of this position has been
> unnecessary. The focus of all of the articles, on the
> subject, is the location of that evidence today. Hence, with
> the sole exception of the y chromosome haplotype we have
> been discussing, every single correlation between Native
> Americans and Asians has been presented by someone or other
> as indicative of the source of Native Americans. This is why
> almost every corner of Asia has been highlighted, to date.
>

The obvious source is the T allele present in Siberia today.
I'm not discounting a back migration but the wide dispersion
of this allele in Turtle Island suggests it was present in the
earliest populations. That's why T allele turns up in any
significant sample from any region.

This was probably a small deme of DYS199 T that drifted from
Siberia or Beringia.

This would also account for a second wave from Siberia that
also carried the T allele. This second Proto-Inuit wave has
some confirmation from archaeology, although more work has
to be done.

> Before any migration models should even be discussed, the
> correlations between all of the multidisciplinary studies
> should be identified. Which mtDNA findings go with which Y
> chromosome?, with which craniometric? with which
> archaeological? Until this is done, there will continue to
> be little certainty about the source of Native Americans
> except for the original presumption (which never had to be
> demonstrated in the first place), IMO.
>

I'm just discussing the models that have been presented in the
peer review publications you mentioned. I agree more
information is always helpful.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Gisele Hor]

On 19 May 2002 19:41:50 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
>news:<3ce7f6c5.9539410@shawnews>...
>> On 19 May 2002 08:48:05 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
>> Manansala) wrote:
>
>> No. It has always been known that Native Americans came
>> from NE Asia and so evidence supportive of this position
>> has been unnecessary. The focus of all of the articles, on
>> the subject, is the location of that evidence today. Hence,
>> with the sole exception of the y chromosome haplotype we
>> have been discussing, every single correlation between
>> Native Americans and Asians has been presented by someone
>> or other as indicative of the source of Native Americans.
>> This is why almost every corner of Asia has been
>> highlighted, to date.
>>
>The obvious source is the T allele present in Siberia today.

Regardless of how widespread this haplotype is in the
Americas, it is more obvious to me that the T allele was
carried from America to Siberia. It is quite enlightening to
read about some of the northern interactions noted by the
early Europeans in the New World. The following passages are
from Canadiana on-line:

http://www.canadiana.org/ECO/mtq?language=en

The Graphic Art of the Eskimos - Hoffman, W. J. (Walter
James), 1846-1899)

"On the Asiatic side this family is represented by the Yuit,
who are distinct from the Chukche, or Tuski of authors, who
are of Asiatic origin, of a distinct linguistic group. The
Yuit are also a coast people, and according to Mr. Dall, are
comparatively recent arrivals from the American side. Between
the Siberian and the Alaskan coasts are the Diomede Islands, a
convenient stopping place for voyagers between the two
continental points above mentioned. At these Islands Simeon
Deshneff, in 1648, found natives wearing labrets who were at
war with the Tuski. Similar reports were made by Shestakoff,
in 1730. Peter Popoff, who visited the Asiatic mainland about
1711 for the purpose of collecting tribute from the Chukche,
describes the habitations and remarks that "he found among the
Tuski ten of the islanders wearing labrets, who had been taken
prisoners of war."

The native tribes of Alaska: 1885, Dall, William Healey,
1845-1927. 21 pages.

"The St Lawrence Island people are more nearly related to the
Innuit of the American coast than to those of Asia, though
their commerce is with the latter and with their Koryak
neighbors."

-----------
It is the Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos who have relatively
high frequencies of the 'T' allele and mtDNA lineages most
similar to those of the inhabitants of the New World. Their
cranial measurements are, not surprisingly, inbetween those of
Siberian Mongoloids and Amerinds.

Gisele

[Paul Kekai]

g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
news:<3ce86f8c.455209@shawnews>...
> On 19 May 2002 19:41:50 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
> >g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
> >news:<3ce7f6c5.9539410@shawnews>...
> >> On 19 May 2002 08:48:05 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> >> Manansala) wrote:

> >The obvious source is the T allele present in Siberia
> >today.
>
>

>
> -----------
> It is the Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos who have relatively
> high frequencies of the 'T' allele and mtDNA lineages most
> similar to those of the inhabitants of the New World. Their
> cranial measurements are, not surprisingly, inbetween those
> of Siberian Mongoloids and Amerinds.
>

The Amerind Mongoloid cranial measurements vary widely
so I suspect you are referring specifically to the
American Eskimos.

Your proposal still poses problems if you accept the idea that
Paleo-Innuit people like the Arctic Small Tool and Norton
cultures were related to Eastern Siberia and represent a
second wave of migration.

In that case, we should expect the Innuit to strongly display
the C allele. However, one study showed that Mayan and Navajo
had higher rates of C allele than the Innuit.

On mtDNA, here is an excerpt from a recent study on the
subject:

QUOTE The occurrence of the 16265G subclade of A2 is more
restricted. It is found only in the Eskimos and the Chukchi
and is dated at 3,000 ± 1,400 years ago. Although the variance
estimates of the ages of the two types overlap considerably,
the geographic and ethnic distributions of their derivatives
strongly suggest that the 16265G type is, in fact, much
younger than the 16192T type. Indeed, the phylogeny (not
shown) of the more diverse Na Dene and Kamchatkan variants of
the 16192T subclade (Shields et al. 1993; Torroni et al. 1993;
Schurr et al. 1999) yields an age of 22,000 years; however,
this, in turn, may well be an overestimate, because the Na
Dene sequences of Torroni et al. (1993) were preselected for
diversity. It is plausible that the 16192 mutation originated
in the Beringian population at least before the end of the
Younger Dryas, but the major spread of this A2 type occurred
later. UNQUOTE

Am J Hum Genet 2000 Sep;67(3):718-26 mtDNA variation among
Greenland Eskimos: the edge of the Beringian expansion.
Saillard J, Forster P, Lynnerup N, Bandelt HJ, Norby S.

See also:

Starikovskaya YB, Sukernik RI, Schurr TG, Kogelnik AM,
Wallace DC
(1998) mtDNA diversity in Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos:
implications for the genetic history of ancient
Beringia and the peopling of the New World. Am J Hum
Genet 63:14731491

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Philip Dei]

On Mon, 20 May 2002 08:49:13 GMT, g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele
Horvat) wrote:

>"On the Asiatic side this family is represented by the Yuit,
>who are distinct from the Chukche, or Tuski of authors, who
>are of Asiatic origin, of a distinct linguistic group. The
>Yuit are also a coast people, and according to Mr. Dall, are
>comparatively recent arrivals from the American side. Between
>the Siberian and the Alaskan coasts are the Diomede Islands,
>a convenient stopping place for voyagers between the two
>continental points above mentioned. At these Islands Simeon
>Deshneff, in 1648, found natives wearing labrets who were at
>war with the Tuski. Similar reports were made by Shestakoff,
>in 1730. Peter Popoff, who visited the Asiatic mainland about
>1711 for the purpose of collecting tribute from the Chukche,
>describes the habitations and remarks that "he found among
>the Tuski ten of the islanders wearing labrets, who had been
>taken prisoners of war."
>
>The native tribes of Alaska: 1885, Dall, William Healey,
>1845-1927. 21 pages.
>
>"The St Lawrence Island people are more nearly related to the
>Innuit of the American coast than to those of Asia, though
>their commerce is with the latter and with their Koryak
>neighbors."
>
>-----------
>It is the Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos who have relatively
>high frequencies of the 'T' allele and mtDNA lineages most
>similar to those of the inhabitants of the New World. Their
>cranial measurements are, not surprisingly, inbetween those
>of Siberian Mongoloids and Amerinds.

Hmmmmm. When you first said this I was under the impression
that Chukchi lived down kamchatka 100s of miles from eastern
siberia. Apparently there were chuckchi living in alaska at
one point. THe evenk and chukchi are highly scattered.

1. I was looking for information on the general skeletal
morphology of these people?

2. Is there any information on which of these groups, if any
occupied the kuril chain prior to sino-korean expansion
from Japan?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9479/koriak.html

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author:
Paul Kekai Manansala Author: Tim Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT
Creation CreationEvolve Abortion Aquatic aquatic

[Gisele Hor]

On 20 May 2002 08:19:01 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
>news:<3ce86f8c.455209@shawnews>...
>> On 19 May 2002 19:41:50 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
>> Manansala) wrote:
>>
>> >g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
>> >news:<3ce7f6c5.9539410@shawnews>...
>> >> On 19 May 2002 08:48:05 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
>> >> Manansala) wrote:
>
>> >The obvious source is the T allele present in Siberia
>> >today.
>>
>> -----------
>> It is the Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos who have relatively
>> high frequencies of the 'T' allele and mtDNA lineages most
>> similar to those of the inhabitants of the New World. Their
>> cranial measurements are, not surprisingly, inbetween those
>> of Siberian Mongoloids and Amerinds.
>>
>
>The Amerind Mongoloid cranial measurements vary widely
>so I suspect you are referring specifically to the
>American Eskimos.

I was referring to Siberian & American Eskimos and Chukchi.
I've found little in literature concerning Amerinds with
Mongoloid traits.
>
>Your proposal still poses problems if you accept the idea
>that Paleo-Innuit people like the Arctic Small Tool and
>Norton cultures were related to Eastern Siberia and represent
>a second wave of migration.

In the article you reference below, it is mentioned that the
mtDNA 'D' lineages of the Eskimo are different than those of
Amerinds. This could easily have been the Dorset component.

>In that case, we should expect the Innuit to strongly display
>the C allele.

The Inuit usually have higher frequencies of haplogroup A
lineages (Thule?) than D (Dorset?).

>However, one study showed that Mayan and Navajo had higher
>rates of C allele than the Innuit.

I have not yet seen sufficient information on the distribution
of y chromosome haplotypes in the America to distinguish
clines (which are so apparent in mtDNA studies). The sample
sizes are usually too small.

Since the Eskimos only have mtDNA haplogroup A & D lineages,
it's easy to pick out the ones which go with the y chromosome
T allele - haplogroup A.

58% of the Navajo have haplogroup A lineages and 44% had the T
allele. The remainder had haplogroup B lineages and the C
allele. The 'B' lineages were obviously picked up from the
Pueblo groups because the northern Nadenes only have
haplogroup A lineages. So, if B lineages arrived separately,
as originally suggested by Wallace, then the males must have
brought the y chromosome haplotypes with the C allele.

>On mtDNA, here is an excerpt from a recent study on the
>subject:
>
>QUOTE The occurrence of the 16265G subclade of A2 is more
>restricted.

Like the y chromosome T allele, A2 mtDNA lineages are
restricted to the Americas + Siberian Eskimos & Chukchi.

>It is found only in the Eskimos and the Chukchi and is dated
>at 3,000 ± 1,400 years ago. Although the variance estimates
>of the ages of the two types overlap considerably, the
>geographic and ethnic distributions of their derivatives
>strongly suggest that the 16265G type is, in fact, much
>younger than the 16192T type. Indeed, the phylogeny (not
>shown) of the more diverse Na Dene and Kamchatkan variants of
>the 16192T subclade (Shields et al. 1993; Torroni et al.
>1993; Schurr et al. 1999) yields an age of 22,000 years;
>however, this, in turn, may well be an overestimate, because
>the Na Dene sequences of Torroni et al. (1993) were
>preselected for diversity. It is plausible that the 16192
>mutation originated in the Beringian population at least
>before the end of the Younger Dryas, but the major spread of
>this A2 type occurred later. UNQUOTE

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but the dates
provided here are not the most certain parts.
>
>Am J Hum Genet 2000 Sep;67(3):718-26 mtDNA variation among
>Greenland Eskimos: the edge of the Beringian expansion.
>Saillard J, Forster P, Lynnerup N, Bandelt HJ, Norby S.
>
>
>See also:
>
>Starikovskaya YB, Sukernik RI, Schurr TG, Kogelnik AM,
>Wallace DC
>(1998) mtDNA diversity in Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos:
> implications for the genetic history of ancient
> Beringia and the peopling of the New World. Am J Hum
> Genet 63:14731491

Gisele

[Gisele Hor]

On Mon, 20 May 2002 10:35:44 -0500, Philip Deitiker
<pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 May 2002 08:49:13 GMT, g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele
>Horvat) wrote:
>
>
>>"On the Asiatic side this family is represented by the Yuit,
>>who are distinct from the Chukche, or Tuski of authors, who
>>are of Asiatic origin, of a distinct linguistic group. The
>>Yuit are also a coast people, and according to Mr. Dall, are
>>comparatively recent arrivals from the American side.
>>Between the Siberian and the Alaskan coasts are the Diomede
>>Islands, a convenient stopping place for voyagers between
>>the two continental points above mentioned. At these Islands
>>Simeon Deshneff, in 1648, found natives wearing labrets who
>>were at war with the Tuski. Similar reports were made by
>>Shestakoff, in 1730. Peter Popoff, who visited the Asiatic
>>mainland about 1711 for the purpose of collecting tribute
>>from the Chukche, describes the habitations and remarks that
>>"he found among the Tuski ten of the islanders wearing
>>labrets, who had been taken prisoners of war."
>>
>>The native tribes of Alaska: 1885, Dall, William Healey,
>>1845-1927. 21 pages.
>>
>>"The St Lawrence Island people are more nearly related to
>>the Innuit of the American coast than to those of Asia,
>>though their commerce is with the latter and with their
>>Koryak neighbors."
>>
>>-----------
>>It is the Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos who have relatively
>>high frequencies of the 'T' allele and mtDNA lineages most
>>similar to those of the inhabitants of the New World. Their
>>cranial measurements are, not surprisingly, inbetween those
>>of Siberian Mongoloids and Amerinds.
>
>Hmmmmm. When you first said this I was under the impression
>that Chukchi lived down kamchatka 100s of miles from eastern
>siberia. Apparently there were chuckchi living in alaska at
>one point. THe evenk and chukchi are highly scattered.

>1. I was looking for information on the general skeletal
> morphology of these people?

"Eskimos, Aleuts, and Chukchi are intermediate between
Siberian Mongoloids and Amerindians..."

"Craniometrically, the Mongoloid extreme is represented by
Siberians. Both Amerindian groups are much less Mongoloid,
while Eskoaleuts and Chukchi are intermediate between them and
Siberians."

"Some writers claimed that the Amerindian tendency is present
not only in Eskoaleuts and Chukchi, whose intermediate
position between Siberians and Amerindians is beyond doubt,
but also in certain populations of western and southern
Siberia (see Levin, 1963, for a review)."

Am J Phys Anthropol 1999 Feb;108(2):193-204 Collateral
relatives of American Indians among the Bronze Age populations
of Siberia? Alexander G. Kozintsev *, A.V. Gromov, V.G.
Moiseyev Museum of Anthropology and Ethnography, St.
Petersburg, Russia 199034

I wrote to Alexander Kozinstev and asked if his findings were
consistent with the concept of back-migration and he
responded, "Why not?"

What was most interesting to me is - while physical
anthropologists use a variety of techniques to compare crania,
the key findings discussed in this article can be directly
related to the genetic. The Chukchi/Eskimo intermediate
position was just mentioned in passing but the ability to
relate craniometric to genetic is also true for the two
populations which were the focus of the article - the Sopka
and Okunev Cultures of the Upper Ob and Yenesei. It was
concluded that bronze age crania of these two populations were
closest to those of Amerinds and Karafet et al. determined
that the y chromosome haplotypes of the Kets and Selkups "who
currently inhabit the eastern part of western Siberia and the
Yenisey River valley" were closest to Amerinds:

Y chromsome "Two of the five populations from western Siberia
(the Kets and the Selkups) have close genetic affinities to
the New World populations, despite the enormous geographic
expanses separating these regions. Except for the Siberian
Eskimos, most of the other Siberian populations differ
considerably from Native Americans and have greater affinity
to Central and East Asians." (Karafet)

Craniometric "The only two Siberian groups with an almost
Amerindian combination are late 3d--early 2nd millennium BC
populations from Okunev and Sopka, southern Siberia."
(Kozintsev)

So, there may be a way to link genetic, craniometric and
archaeological - a necessary step, IMO.

The Russians have also written several articles on the
"Americanoids of the Yenesei". The Selk'ups only have mtDNA
haplogroup C lineages in common with Native Americans (35%)
and the Evenki, as you know have a very high frequency of
lineages belonging to this haplogroup. All I've been able to
find about the craniometrics of the latter is this abstract:

Hum Biol 1995 Jun;67(3):459-79 Population relationships among
historical and modern indigenous Siberians based on
anthropometric characters.

Comuzzie AG, Duggirala R, Leonard WR, Crawford MH.

Department of Genetics, Southwest Foundation for Biomedical
Research, San Antonio, TX 78228-0147, USA.

A comparison of anthropometric data recently collected from a
modern population of Evenki and data collected from a group of
Evenki at the turn of the century by the Jesup expedition
(Boas 1903) reveals a pattern of significant changes over this
time period. The modern Evenki exhibit larger sitting height
and biacromial breadth but smaller bizygomatic and nasal
breadth and a shorter face. Although the differences in the
postcranial characters might be attributable to improvements
in health and nutrition over time, those of the head and face
might also indicate increased gene flow, perhaps from European
populations. The comparative analysis of the anthropometric
data was expanded to a multivariate approach by use of
canonical variate analysis. This analysis was performed using
data from the 10 populations sampled during the Jesup
expedition along with the data from a sample of modern Evenki.
In general, a pattern of relationships emerged, reflecting
known population interactions and linguistic affiliations to a
certain extent. However, the sample of modern Evenki differed
substantially from all the other samples in the analysis.
Although such a separation of the modern Evenki from this set
of historical Siberian populations may be the result of a
secular trend; it is also highly probable that it reflects new
patterns of gene flow resulting from interactions and events
associated with Russian colonial expansion and in this century
the establishment of the Soviet state.

PMID: 7607637 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Kozintsev also summarized craniometric research involving
populations of the Lake Baikal area.

>2. Is there any information on which of these groups, if any
> occupied the kuril chain prior to sino-korean expansion
> from Japan?
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9479/koriak.html

Sorry, I don't know.

Gisele

[Paul Kekai]

g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
news:<3ce928f0.691497@shawnews>...
> On 20 May 2002 08:19:01 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
> >g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
> >news:<3ce86f8c.455209@shawnews>...
> >> On 19 May 2002 19:41:50 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> >> Manansala) wrote:
> >>
> >> >g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
> >> >news:<3ce7f6c5.9539410@shawnews>...
> >> >> On 19 May 2002 08:48:05 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul
> >> >> Kekai Manansala) wrote:
>
> >> >The obvious source is the T allele present in Siberia
> >> >today.
> >>
> >> -----------
> >> It is the Chukchi and Siberian Eskimos who have
> >> relatively high frequencies of the 'T' allele and mtDNA
> >> lineages most similar to those of the inhabitants of the
> >> New World. Their cranial measurements are, not
> >> surprisingly, inbetween those of Siberian Mongoloids and
> >> Amerinds.
> >>
> >
> >The Amerind Mongoloid cranial measurements vary widely so I
> >suspect you are referring specifically to the American
> >Eskimos.
>
> I was referring to Siberian & American Eskimos and Chukchi.
> I've found little in literature concerning Amerinds with
> Mongoloid traits.
> >

You must not have looked too hard. Amerinds were and still are
classified as "American Mongoloid" by those who still bother
to use these classifications.

> 58% of the Navajo have haplogroup A lineages and 44% had the
> T allele. The remainder had haplogroup B lineages and the C
> allele. The 'B' lineages were obviously picked up from the
> Pueblo groups because the northern Nadenes only have
> haplogroup A lineages. So, if B lineages arrived separately,
> as originally suggested by Wallace, then the males must have
> brought the y chromosome haplotypes with the C allele.
>

I doubt if the C allele was brought separately. It probably
came together with the T allele. The former is too widespread
to have been brought by Proto-Innuit.

The latter should have been 100 percent C allele according to
your position, but that doesn't look like the simplest
explanation from the available evidence.

> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but the
> dates provided here are not the most certain parts.
> >

Both the paternal and maternal evidence points to a
Proto-Innuit movement by people who already had the T allele
either from Siberian or Beringia.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Paul Kekai]

g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele Horvat) wrote in message
news:<3ce9d84c.15641899@shawnews>...
> On 20 May 2002 22:06:11 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
> >> >The Amerind Mongoloid cranial measurements vary widely
> >> >so I suspect you are referring specifically to the
> >> >American Eskimos.
> >>
> >> I was referring to Siberian & American Eskimos and
> >> Chukchi. I've found little in literature concerning
> >> Amerinds with Mongoloid traits.
>
> >You must not have looked too hard. Amerinds were and still
> >are classified as "American Mongoloid" by those who still
> >bother to use these classifications.
>
> I think I should have taken Philip's advice.
>

Well Gisele, you've been a Kennewiccan for a long time, so I
just wanted to correct your selective use of racial
classification.

I'm absolutely sure you have read literature discussing
Mongoloid traits in Amerinds. It's impossible to avoid.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Paul Kekai]

pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote in message
news:<3ecbfe18.6804188@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> On Mon, 20 May 2002 19:35:51 GMT, g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele
> Horvat) wrote:
>

I can trace the WEA
> contribution to mongolians,

One can also trace the contribution to the Philip-Gisele lines
of thought.

Starting around the time of Gobineau and other racial
theorists to the developement of the hyperdiffusion migration
thought by Grafton Eliot Smith, William Perry and the British
sun theory school. Not to forget the hefty contributions of
Heine-Geldern and Thor Heyerdahl. The Aryan male herrenvolk,
followers of the sun, third reich and all that.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Philip Dei]

On Mon, 20 May 2002 19:35:51 GMT, g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele
Horvat) wrote:

>A comparison of anthropometric data recently collected from a
>modern population of Evenki and data collected from a group
>of Evenki at the turn of the century by the Jesup expedition
>(Boas 1903) reveals a pattern of significant changes over
>this time period. The modern Evenki exhibit larger sitting
>height and biacromial breadth but smaller bizygomatic and
>nasal breadth and a shorter face. Although the differences in
>the postcranial characters might be attributable to
>improvements in health and nutrition over time, those of the
>head and face might also indicate increased gene flow,
>perhaps from European populations. The comparative analysis
>of the anthropometric data was expanded to a multivariate
>approach by use of canonical variate analysis. This analysis
>was performed using data from the 10 populations sampled
>during the Jesup expedition along with the data from a sample
>of modern Evenki. In general, a pattern of relationships
>emerged, reflecting known population interactions and
>linguistic affiliations to a certain extent. However, the
>sample of modern Evenki differed substantially from all the
>other samples in the analysis. Although such a separation of
>the modern Evenki from this set of historical Siberian
>populations may be the result of a secular trend; it is also
>highly probable that it reflects new patterns of gene flow
>resulting from interactions and events associated with
>Russian colonial expansion and in this century the
>establishment of the Soviet state.

I found the same is true in mongolians, I can trace the WEA
contribution to mongolians, but any given group got different
contributing genes, so that one haplotype is high in
mongolians, another in manchu, another in korean and still
others in Japan. My suspicion is that the dispersal from the
west was not a uniform event but a whole nest of tribes. Some
associations in the east are more aligned with a
french/german, french belgium or cornish, or french italian. I
did a little geographic zoning, of course we are missing the
swiss sample, but we have mtDNA representatives we know are
centered to switzerland. That analysis suggests the center of
origin for those people was in south eastern france.

However, I don't want to sound like a broken record, the
haplotypes of some of the NE asians are disimilar to NA,
japanese and even mongolians, There are clear signs of a
southeast asian in these peoples that tends to dominate, I
did find evidence however for recombination between WEA
and SEA haplotypes. So I suggest we cannot over simplify.
On of the basic problem is that geographic of this is not
2 but 3 dimensional when we add the time component. We
cannot see everything, groups from one region may move
through or around groups, leaving the intermediate groups
unaffected. Or there can be back migration. I haven't
really the need to do any work with the Yakuts or Inuit
because there are no known autoimmune disease associations
with those populations, after all these things I am pickup
as I go along.

Possibly some groups moved through India to the north via
a central asia route west of the mongols, and worked the
arctic regions of central eurasia just like the inuits
worked the regions of NA. I am told but have no
independent way of confiming that the lapps have more
affinity to siberian groups relative to uralics (uralic
haplotype frequencies in the set are heavily bias with
scandinavian haps).

As usual, good work. See if you can find anything on the
paleontology of the kurils.

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Philip Dei]

On Mon, 20 May 2002 19:34:17 GMT, g-horvat@shaw.ca (Gisele
Horvat) wrote:

>>is found only in the Eskimos and the Chukchi and is dated at
>>3,000 ± 1,400 years ago. Although the variance estimates of
>>the ages of the two types overlap considerably, the
>>geographic and ethnic distributions of their derivatives
>>strongly suggest that the 16265G type is, in fact, much
>>younger than the 16192T type. Indeed, the phylogeny (not
>>shown) of the more diverse Na Dene and Kamchatkan variants
>>of the 16192T subclade (Shields et al. 1993; Torroni et al.
>>1993; Schurr et al. 1999) yields an age of 22,000 years;
>>however, this, in turn, may well be an overestimate, because
>>the Na Dene sequences of Torroni et al. (1993) were
>>preselected for diversity. It is plausible that the 16192
>>mutation originated in the Beringian population at least
>>before the end of the Younger Dryas, but the major spread of
>>this A2 type occurred later. UNQUOTE
>
> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but the dates
> provided here are not the most certain parts.

Yes, and the variance around a single mutation within is
within a 36,000 year bracket around 22,000 years, this easily
includes the clovis immigration. Secondarily the appearance of
protoJomon in NEA may have forced groups of non-WEA origin to
move over upon their arrival, forcing all the 'left-behinds'
south or heavily diminishing their numbers. As a result the
22,000 years in not very useful. Gisele also pointed me to a
couple of mtDNA lHV1 allele sets that were evolving 2 to 3
times faster than the rest of the human population. We have to
see the exactly molecular evolution of mtDNA and their
connections fo africa in order to make a judement as when a
mutation might (with confidence) emmerged.

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Gisele Hor]

On 20 May 2002 22:06:11 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>> >The Amerind Mongoloid cranial measurements vary widely so
>> >I suspect you are referring specifically to the American
>> >Eskimos.
>>
>> I was referring to Siberian & American Eskimos and Chukchi.
>> I've found little in literature concerning Amerinds with
>> Mongoloid traits.

>You must not have looked too hard. Amerinds were and still
>are classified as "American Mongoloid" by those who still
>bother to use these classifications.

I think I should have taken Philip's advice.

Gisele