Japanese Node.

[Philip Dei]

In contrast to france and denmark which have anti-nodal
character in their haplotypes. The question was raised that
maybe france was selectively swept from many invaders.

This particular instance is Japanese most frequent haplotype.
A24 CBL B52 DR15 DQ1. This haplotype has a frequenct of around
8.0% which is high for a 5 gene haplotype. The haplotype can
be found in korean but at about
2.%. And it is not found anywhere south of korea to any
degree. Therefore while new peoples may come in, if their
alleles are more mixed than a standing haplotype, or they
are coming in as a result of mixed immigration, the
predominant haploypes are likely to stand if the population
has gone through contrictions/growth prior to immigration.

A similar possibly derivative hapltoype is found in Korea at
about 1/8th the frequency.

Similar haplotypes 2 of 5 or 3 of 5 can be found from western
eurasia to java excluding southern asia.

So what we can learn from this is that haplotypes can grow
isolated and remain intense even under invasive conditions,
because peak haplotype frequencies are indicative of
contrictions regional or suppliment by specific groups
expanding from constrictions.

Origin of the A24 B52 DR15 DQ1 haplotype. This haplotype is
only detected in the database in one other place world wide.
It is not found to any measurable degree in the chinese,
taiwanese (aboriginal) or SE asians.
* Note B51 and B52 are closely related haplotypes.

A24 CBL B51 DR15 DQ1 - greece 2.1 A24 CBL B52 DR15 DQ1 -
greece 1.1 A1 CBL B52 DR15 DQ1 - Italy 0.4 A11 CBL B52 DR15
DQ1 - Belgium 2.8 ** ? CBL B52 DR15 DQ1 - Belgium 4.6 ***

The distance between A11 and B52 is great there are a number
of interrupting loci which are generally not characterized,
thus even in rather recent population growths, it is not
unexpected to see divergence of haplotype linkage.

**2nd most frequent haplotype. IOW the most close link to the
apparent Japanese specific haplotype is between belgium and
greece, assuming the haplotype frequencies of italy were
reduced and repopulation on could estimate that this haplotype
originated in the region of france.

The age of this haplotype in Japan is not great or Japan had
undergone constrictions, the number of secondary alleles is
small, suggesting some recent immigration/ constriction within
the last 5000 years. Given the lack of alleles in between I
would contend that this haplotype underwent constriction and
then an assymetric expansion within Japan. The haplotype
frequencies in greece are at 'remnant' levels and other
indicators are that this haplotype was at once higher
frequencies. The DR15 DQ1 is found in africa and is associated
with B7 haplotpype. A2 B7 DR15 DQ1 is found in basque and
probably originated in africa.

Assume that if I do not show a haplotype frequency its below
1%. There is a secondary possible origin. A24 CBL B52 DR15 DQ1
Japan 8.3% A24 CBL B60 DR15 DQ1 Taiwan Aboriginal 2.2% A24 CBL
B52 DR15 DQ1 Mongolian 3.0% A24 CBL B62 DR15 DQ1 Javanese
3.0%, Timor 8.6%

However, the Taiwan Aboriginol is explanable with the mtDNA
markers that show geneflow from northern Japan into the ryukyu
chain. The mongolian markers are consistent with intermediate
steps from west to east. Javanese and Timor-ese remain unknown
connection.

In the mtDNA analysis I should point out there is frequently
a spot of west eurasian alleles in highlands of indonesia,
on a couple of instances you can almost, but not believable
follow this down from japan, between tiawan and these
highlands the trail gets pretty cold.

There are a couple of elements we can add to this.

First let us look at the region in the B/DR region. The
Japanase HP is B52 Bfs A3+2 C4BQ0 DR15
(7.3%) not surprising it is found in Korea (2.8%), not in
inner mongolia, china or Java. We have a limited number of
sampled populations.

B52 Bfs A3+2 C4BQ0 DR15 the most similar allele is the
spanish (basque and cornish are not in the Dbase) B44 Bfs
C4A3 C4BQ0 DR15 second most similar is the spanish B51 Bfs
C4A3 C4BQ0 DR15

The BfF A3+2 C4BQ0 is found in uralic peoples
(7.1)Bfs A3+2 C4BQO is found in Iyers at 5.0% but they do
not know where the keralaabroad Iyers come from.
http://www.keralaabroad.com/kakermap.html THey have
CBL B51 and B52 at 7.5% and 4.6% respectively. The
two predominant ACB haplotypes are A33 Cw7 B44 8.8 A1
Cw4 B35 4.8

A1 Cw4 B35 is found in Albanians 3.0% French 1.3% Italiains
1.0% Cw4 B35 *, ** 1st and second most frequent haplotype. A
hap in front A2 Tlinglit 8.8 BL, 8 A24 Yakut 7.0 A2, A11
Sardinia **8.6 16, 3, 1, 15 Korean 1.0 4, 15 Japanese 0.4 4,
8, A24,2 S. Amer Ind 4, 8 A31, 33 Brazilian 11, 3, 8 A2, 31 N.
Amer Ind*18.6 A24*,2 Mexican *13.3 14, 4 A11,32 Greek *13.5
11, BL, 8, 1, 10, 4 3,24,28 A2, A3 Hungarian **10.5 4, 1, 8
A3,23,24Armenian 7.4 4, 11, 12 Belgium 5.5 13, mix A3 Cornish
5.4 1, 4 A3 YugoSlav 5.7 4, mix A1,2,23 Albania *7.6 11, 14, 4
A3,28,11German 6.0 11, 1, 4 A24,3 Austrian **11.2 11, 14, 1
Italian *14.4% 11*, 1, 13, 4, BL, 7 A1 Iyers *12.3 N/D Polish
*10.0 Portuguese *10.1 13*, 7, 11 A2, A3 Slovac **9.7 A3, 24
Indian *9.4 11, 15, mix A2* Romanian **8.2 1, 16 A11 British
**8.5 1, mix A2, A3 Spanish **7.9 1, 11, 7, BL A3,1,24 French
*7.3 1, 13, 11, 3, 14 24,11,2 A3, A2 Czech **7.2 11, 1 A2, A3
Swedish 7.1 TMTA Basque 5.0 TMTA A3 Uralic 5.6 7, 4, 11 A2, A3
Dane 5.7 1, mix A24 Bahrgaves 3.0 Tibetian 2.5 Ukraine <2.0
A24 Mongol 2.5 In Mongol 1.9 3 Manchu 1.3
S. Han 1.8 12, 15 Thai 1.4 12 VietNamese 3.6 12 A24
Javanese 8.8 12, 15 A2, A3 Timorese 3.8 mix

Hmmmm. so once again we find this West eurasia, Javanese split
with Native americans and mongolians dangling. I am going to
add in predominant DR to see if I can undangle it. But it does
put the mongol segment closer to NA and Uralic. Anyway we
don't have Iyers so all we can say is that looks like it came
from the west.

A33 Cw7 B44 8.8 A33 CBl B7801 Senegal A33 CBL B51 W.Africa A33
cw2 B35 W.africa A33 cw4 B53 W.africa A23 cw4 B44 Senegal A29
cw7 B44 S. African Negroid A43 Cw7 B44 Khoi A28 Cw7 B44
Australo Aborigine A33 is also similar in structure to A31 and
A32 A33 CBL B14 Albania 1.5% A32 Cw7 B07 Albania 1.8% A33 CwX
B14 Armenia 2.1% A2 CBL B44 Albania 3.2% A29 CBL B44 Basque
*7.4 A23 Cw4 B44 Basque 3.3 A28 Cw7 B44 German 1.0 A31 CBL B44
Italian 0.5 A33 CBL B44 Japan 5.7** A33 CBL B44 Korea 4.2* A33
cwX B44 Japan 0.2 A33 Cw7 B44 Korea 3.1 A33 CBL B14 Mancuh 1.1
A33 Cw7 B44 Thai 4.2 A33 Cw7 B44 VietNamese 1.7 A33 Cw7 B44
Javanese 2.5 A33 Cw7 B44 Bhargavas 4.0

Don't ask me why we keep seeing connections between the
spanish via mongolians via Javanese. Ever so slightly leans in
favor of albanian, franco italian origin.

Back to our friend A24 CBL B52 DR15 DQ1 The Gene for DR15 is
1502. Which is a more specific bit of information, it is
linked with DRB3 BL gene it is found in Indonesian Highlanders
4.5% Romanian 5.3% Span Gyp 8.2% Indian 11.9% Japan 9.2 Korea
3.0 Buyi 4.3

This can be linked to DQB601

IndoHighlnd 4.7 Italian 1.8 Romanian 2.0 Gypsy Span 5.0 Japan
9.6 Korean 3.2

DQB1 can be linked to DQA1 IndoHigh Alpha 102 17.0% indoHigh
Alpha 103 4.2% (suspect this is associated with DR1502)
Italian 103 2.0% Spanish 103 1.8 Gypsy Spanish 103 5.2 Japan
103*16.1% Korea 103*11.4% Swedish 0603 103 2.5%

DQB1 can also be linked to DPB1 Japan appears to have 0601
0901 Koreans do not possess this in any great frequency. Nor
does anyone else for that matter. It is similar to the
following however. 1001, 1401, 1701, 3501. 1701 is in senegal
and spanish Q602 P1401 exist in Highlanders P1401 exists in
Italians P1001 exists in Italians

The P alpha is 02,Bl for DPB9 02,1001 is found in sardinians
2.4% (DR associations TNTA) Also found in french 2.1% (DR
associations TNTA) Also found in German 2.2% Italians 3.1%

02,1701 is found in association with Italian 1.6% Spanish 1.9

02, 901 (Exact match) Swedish 1.6% (Note swedish were not
noted in other studies)

Swedes have DQB0601,2,3.

Therefore we find a number of links to the formation of this
haplotype. The full type is A24 Bfs A3+2 C4BQO CBL B52 DR1502
DQA0103 DQB0601 DPA02 DPB0901

Links to this haplotypes can be made to the Iyers

Swedish Last 3 genes, probably originated with the Basque. A24
is not uncommonly associated with CBL and B52 in greece and
potentially other parts of europe. Similar haplotypes are
found in Java. The similarities do not change as one moves
toward the end. In spots there is association with indians,
but by and large there is a split association between W.
europeans and Javanese, with the western europeans pulling
slightly ahead with allelic association with swedish DPB0901
which is found nowhere else except Japan.

Thus I would argue that this haplotype began its evolution as
a very ancient west eurasian haplotype. The DR associations
with the DPA are to numerous to analyze within basque,
sardinians and spanish.

We can make several opposing theories from that point.

1. Gene flow from western asia to mongolia/siberia into Japan
from north, then down from taiwan and into select islands
of indonesia or highlands, supported by Javanese data.

2. Gene flow from western asia splitting one branch heading
north and one heading south through india and into the
indonesian highlands, supported by indonesian highlands

3. Gene flow from western asia into india or some local
region, possibly shunting of indonesian highlanders, then
the splitting of the group moving to mongolia and Java.

4. Geneflow from mongolia down through the SE asian
highlands, small amount of gene flow from
Japan/Tiawan/Java more recently.

We can also entertaine an Indocentric theory. That is that
india was first settled and groups moved into western
eurasia from the east they also moved into east asia
following an initial wave of settlement curled around into
china and mongolia.

The problem I have with this is the distinct boundary between
the A24B52DR15 haplotype and majority of chinese population,
the DR haplotypes are generally B12 indicating that china nor
Java was the origin but more recently appeared. Nor does this
B12 appear to have moved down from the indonesian highland,
more than like was a recombinant in the chinese lowland in
last glacial maxima that moved down along the coast and was
compacted onto islands once sea levels rose. The contribution
of indoasiatic alleles is not to be dismissed, it would be
very wishful thinking to pretend that the haplotype formed in
total in western eurasia and moved eastward. But because of
the boundaries of the Han and other chinese groups, including
tibetian (and burmese highlanders) I strongly support the idea
that the recombinations occurred as a result of indoasiatic
input either locally in the Sino-mongol-japanese region or as
a result of passing through populations in central asia on the
way to Japan.

By far, at present every time you find a
mongol/korean/japanese alleles that is an identifying
haplotype of the region (a nodal reference, so to speak)
there is a more than likely strong connection to eurasia. At
this point it is so strong as to question the idea that
Japanese are even more of indopacific derivation relative to
western eurasia. This haplotype certainly does not simplify
matters. The expectation is that if it had been in Japan for
a long period it would have a number of recombinant
haplotypes (recombinant spawn). But with this haplotype it is
not the case, what appears to be more likely is that the
haplotype was in a region of Japan or a specific region of
korea that survived occupation or translocated en-masse,
respectively, in Japan.

This database I think is capable of answering several
questions previously asked, but in a much better way.

5. Origin of caucasian. The stereotypic caucasian lived in the
region of europe from england to the black sea before the
end of the last ice age. West eurasians living to the south
appear more like spanish or basque, those living close to
cornwall and mixed with northern black sea dwellers become
the stereotypical caucasions. Those lving in northern
italy, france, germany (I will henceforth call the
paleofrench more or less left and scattered themselves).
France and Denmark, lessor germany have been repopulation
from other distal regions, and lack large numbers of
extended unique haplotypes, france being a dearth of unique
haplotypes is probably (outside of the US) best definable
antinode. want to observe a good trough between nodes, walk
from central france in any direction (except italy). The
highest cline will be to the southwest, and if you have a
boat, to sardinia.

This area covered most of france, denmark and german. The
austrians and swiss must have found safe haven somewhere
because nodality of the austrians (via haplotype) and swiss
(via mtDNA) seems to rise. There are also questions as to
where at least a portion of the swedish ancestry originated.
Most seems to have moved back in from southern Britian
however some component, maybe 30% may have come from the SE
or soutern peoples.

6. One of the major points or places where they scattered to
is NE asia, namely SE siberia, mongolia, korea and Japan.
However it may also be true that they scattered into the SE
asia/ indonesian highland.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Paul Kekai]

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:<24e3eusgemjo32n51toa5ekjvcao7lrl9i@4ax.com>...
>
>
> 1. Origin of caucasian. The stereotypic caucasian lived in
> the region of europe from england to the black sea before
> the end of the last ice age.

Could you provide a ref. (osteological) for this assertion in
the sense of a series rather than stray samples.

How do you deifne a "stereotypic caucasian."

Even the early Holocene skeletal material from Europe would
not fit foresenically into what we know as "Caucasian." The
skeletons associated with the European megaliths, don't have
the facial characteristics of modern Europeans. In many ways,
they resemble Andaman Islanders or Australian Aborigines.

>
> 2. One of the major points or places where they scattered to
> is NE asia, namely SE siberia, mongolia, korea and Japan.
> However it may also be true that they scattered into the
> SE asia/ indonesian highland.
>
>

This idea is a remnant of old Grafton Eliot Smith or
Heine-Geldern hyper-diffusionism.

There is no linguistic or archaeological support for
this idea.

The main methodology involves a slanted application of "race"
in one sense monotypic when involving non-Caucasoids, but
highly variable when involving "archaic" Caucasoids.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Philip Dei]

On 15 May 2002 09:40:57 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
>news:<24e3eusgemjo32n51toa5ekjvcao7lrl9i@4ax.com>...
>>
>>
>> 1. Origin of caucasian. The stereotypic caucasian lived in
>> the region of europe from england to the black sea
>> before the end of the last ice age.
>
>Could you provide a ref. (osteological) for this assertion in
>the sense of a series rather than stray samples.

Whose bones do you want me to steal? I mean do you want me to
go out and whack down Ainu and Mongolians. How about a hunting
party for Melanistic Highlanders? Those Javanese women look
pretty good, but I think defleshing them for their bones, they
wont be very appreciative of that kind of affection.
Whadduthink? How about some non-inavasive procedure, like a
drawing blood [phil making ghoulish vampire sounds].

I have a number of haplotypes that I cannot present
unfortunately, The database is from the 11th Workshop on
HLA. But I cannot present 'everything' here because some of
the associations will be apart of future manuscripts so
leave it at that. I have one today, in which an "allele"
which causes a certain disease in Italy and Sardinians,
patient shows up with same disease from Philipines, turns
out its a very common haplotype in the philipines, thinking
niavely that I would be lucky to allign even three loci, I
managed to get an allignment of 7 different loci in one of
the predominant haplotypes in the philipines. The only other
place where this haplotype is found outside of southern
china (buyi), philipines (regional node) and sardinia
(regional node) is guess where. Give you a hint begins with
a J. Now while I was doing this I wanted to know, did this
come from asia to west or from west to asia. The way you can
tell is who has the greatest regional diversity, IOW you
will find that a nest of alleles gets shaved as they travel
and eventually loose diversity. The greatest diversity of
this haplotype is guess where?

A. India
B. Western europe
C. SE asia

Also, in todays work I notice a DQ type 05031 which is found
in Japan, and Melanesian highland. This allele is very rare
and is a unique mutation of the 050XX loci. Its highest
frequency is in Melanesian Highland. Not found in china,
mongolia, buyi, north america, eastern europe, uralic, . .
. . . . . . australoaborigine, african of any type, . .
. , swedish

Guess where it is also found?

A. The tip of your nose
B. The bottom of your shoe
C. Italy, france (very low) and sardinia.

Guess where the highest number of derivative products
are found?

D. In some battleworn morphology paper.
E. In Bob Keeters never ending desire to destroy this NG and
fill it with worthless diatribe and Off-Topic postings.
F. Italy and sardinia.

Now I wasn't even interested today in DQB05031 but as per
chance it had a 05 in it so I just jotted down the haplotype
frequencies since I was looking at 2 other similar alleles.
Now I have about 7 more DQ types to go through before I finish
this 'sample' survey for a particular disease. What do you
think Paul, tommorow I might presenting 2 or 3 more
associations linking NE asia with Europe?

>How do you deifne a "stereotypic caucasian."

Use a strong victorian definition of your choice. The only
reason I used this is there is a pretext for defining a nodal
center. However the genetic data suggest that there is no
'nodal' center to europe. It may have had one at some time in
the past, but that center has apparently disappeared.
Therefore the stereotypic pregrecan caucasian was probably a
crescent of people extending from ireland to belarus as some
kind of expanding eastward migrating wave. One complaint
though, I am once again annoyed by the sampling of europeans
over other peoples. This is to the point of getting
disappointing since if they had sample like france and denmark
in asia, they would type on haplotype and find someone else to
sample. It is better IMHO, that they hit the major nodes,
first, and then get into the details. They have 4 sample
groups in africa, this is not a reliable sample for anything.
Here you have african american patients in the US that may
need a tissue transplant. Sampling african americans is
useless except to the extent it tells you how badly they have
sampled africa (which if you compare haplotypes in america to
africa, the random movement of unidentified peoples from
africa to the new world is a better sample than the african
sample). When are these folks going to wake up and learn that
science is also about thoroughness that nodality is real, its
not walking into a convinient hospital and taking a few
samples and relying on political boundaries to define people.

>Even the early Holocene skeletal material from Europe would
>not fit foresenically into what we know as "Caucasian."

Based on this model it would depend on where you searched.
Tthe closest inhabitants to france and germany that currently
live in europe are the Basque. Since rising sea levels would
have separated the Islanders they would have had a more
severe isolation. The cornish were expected to have a lower
frequency of the Super B8 haplotype, contralily they have
double of what is expected, in fact its higher than the
british population from which the Swedish haplotype was
supposed to come via. This might have created an artifactual
nodality that did not exist before the last glacial maxima.
Therefore it seems likely that the constriction that must
have produced the superhaplotype was not in Sweden, but in
england.What do constrictions do to archeologist? Well they
don't leave much data do they? Don't expect to find alot of
bone evidence. The primary sites will be in S. france, spain
and portugal, S. Italy.

My 'crazy' prediction is that caucasians that once lived in
france and germany did not resemble much the caucasians that
live their today, because those caucasians now live in the
indo pacific highland, northern Japan, and are mixed like
hell with local people. Even so, I think look at the basque
and triangulate from the greeks to the basque to the
sardinians, spray a little cornish on top (not very much
because their affect is already accounted for in europe).
This is what the haplotype analysis suggest these people
looked like. In addition it may (let see >40 ky occupation,
left >15 kya means 25 ky of regional evolution) have had a
very distinct nodal character all into itself.

>The skeletons associated with the European megaliths, don't
>have the facial characteristics of modern Europeans. In many
>ways, they resemble Andaman Islanders or Australian
>Aborigines.

Not surprising. Probably looked more like the basque, or the
ainu or the melanesian highlanders. You don't get the point. I
will eventually append my site, but all the french '5 gene'
haplotypes have higher frequencies outside of france, in some
cases very far away, with a tendency for that 'Far Away' to be
in North-east asia. I will get the unpublishable data into my
site, although there is a 'pressure' to publish all of it. No
evidence what-so-ever of australo-aboriginal alleles in
Western europe. Only select places in melanesia, like Java,
highlands and Philipines have haplotype similarities. The
evidence from india is very splotchy and tempered by the fact
the 'aryian' invaders settled, Some indian populations have no
similarity, others have more than chance similarity. As per
dating, my prediction is that if the dating is as early as
100-120 kya for settling of eurasia it is possible the these
peoples came through indian and then traveled west. Islands
like sardinia can constrict haplotypes to the point of biasing
the distribution, so beyond some point it goes 'dark' as far
as previous settlement. So these people may have moved from
east to west 50-100 kya but I doubt it. Just as in the mtDNA I
still keep getting hits from sardinia and the basque in N
africa and Senegal.

>This idea is a remnant of old Grafton Eliot Smith or
>Heine-Geldern hyper-diffusionism.

I wouldn't call it hyper diffussion, more like selective
migration, the spread seems to have been highly selective.
For example

Japan-High Korea-High Mongolian-High Manchu-Intermediate/high
G. Han- Intermediate
H. Han-Low Taiwan-Aboriginal Intermediate Buyi-Intermediate
Philipine-Intermediate/low Highlander-Intermediate/Low
Australoaborigine-none India-Intermediate/low

Secondarily the spread does not appear as one large group, but
many possible small groups, each with distinct haplotypes. I
can see the following model.

Whatever caused the evacuation of the central part of western
europe, most folks died, probably entire tribe died, but those
that were left were highly fractured representatives of
paleoFrance, Germany, Denmark and Northern Italy. Some
scattering of these peoples made it to east asia, some
settling into japan, some korea, some mongolia, some might
have made it deep into kyushu, and ryukyu and traveled down
into the philipines or into java or into indonesian highland.

>There is no linguistic or archaeological support for
>this idea.

linguistics for the most serious linguist is only good for
about 8000 years, pushing it 15,000 (very pushing it).
ProtoJomon show up 15,000 years ago, what do you think,
language means anything? There is archealogical support
however for tool culture moving from the west to the east
behind the initial advance of humans thousands of years
earlier, There is a cultural transition in Japan that
definably begins in the north 11 kya with intricately
definable stone tools, increase in chip faces three fold over
previous tools.

>The main methodology involves a slanted application of "race"
>in one sense monotypic when involving non-Caucasoids, but
>highly variable when involving "archaic" Caucasoids.

Race is unimportant. I only use caucasian as an identifier the
folks here are familiar. If you were up to it I could replace
stereotypical caucasian with super-B8 haplotype dominant
peoples, and holocaucasian with sardinian and basque
derivative populations if it makes you feel any better. I
propose replacing race with nodal model which is based on
peaks of uniqueness interrupted by anti-nodal troughs in
uniqueness. In europe I can rank the nodes
1. Sardinians
2. Basque (with minor nodes in spain and portugal)
3. The Cornish (with minor nodes in sweden)
4. The Greeks (with Italy as a minor node)
5. The Austrians (with minor nodes in hungary)
6. Belgium
7. Germano-Czech (with a great deal of scumming the bottom of
haplotype percentages)

With combinations of these groups you can account for a
majority of haplotypes (5 gene) in europe. With probably
better degrees of separation you can find numbers of nodes in
India (given the western eurasian sampling bias). It would
also be nice to have northern scotland and Ireland as I expect
other sets of diversity. I am about 3 minor alleles shy of
accounting for the origin of the Norse, if these turned out to
be at high frequency in Ireland or Scotland, then I could
verify the origin of the swedes and eliminate the ukraine as a
point of origin for this group. Be sure of one thing, the B8
haplotype did not grow as a result of selection, it was a
predominant haplotype that grew from a single individual 10-30
kya to about 100 million bearers worldwide, it was somewhat
older than what I previously believe because there are
derivative prodcuts scattered around europe. The same is true
with the A24B52DR15 haplotype in the Japanese; however the
number of derivative products in japan is small suggesting a
very recent expansion. It is also implicit of a distal origin,
since if it had evolved regionally we would see many
derivative haplotypes. Therefore the A24B52 haplotype was
either present in the preYayoi Japanese or that a specific
segment of Koreans migrated to Japan, differentially expanded
keeping other groups of koreans out. At present some 15
million japanese carry a single 12 gene haplotype. You know
how fast genes recombine, do the math and figure it out.

Race only comes into this kind of argument when someone makes
and assertion about one group that someone else does not like.
I am not making such an assertion, at best you could argue
that the paleoFrench got their asses frozen off and had to go
somewhere, the ones that survived probably had alot to offer
in terms of culture in some way off place. In terms of
identifyable indemic caucasians, there are only about 100 left
is east asia, not very succesful i'de say. But to the issue of
language, the linguist argue that in precolumbian world there
were 7000 languages. What better way to generate a whole bunch
of languages, even language families (10 in NE asia) is to
have one group slam into another group, mix it up. Then you
have 3 languages from 2. Now imagine 10 to 20 tribes moving
around, 2 or 3 representative groups from each tribe slamming
into a local yocal group, each producing new languages.
Japanese are supposed to be derived from korean, but if one
compares Japanese and Korean (theoretically 2400 years
separated) they are very different than if you compare all the
older Uralic languages, for example. The reason is that the
people in preYayoi Japan, while knowledgable of korean
mongols, were definably different in terms of culture and
morphology. Therefore Korean and preYayoi form a sensitian
culture, sprinkled with a little chinese sophistry. One of the
major reason that Japan has 3 alphabets, because Japanese were
unable to speak written Kange (chinese alphabet), therefore
they created a phonetic letter set that allowed them to
integrate the various mixed components of their language and
speak the way it is written. Westerners cannot understand the
profoundness of the problem. When I was in Japan, I played
navigator to my wife while traveling, we frequently got lost
because of Japanese roadsigns. In Japan, towns were encoded
with a Kange name, but many times only the locals know how to
pronounce that name, Town Names were not converted to Katakana
or Hirogana. As a result, they read the Kange, but they are
familiar with the sound of the name from heresay. Therefore
you can see the name of a town and not know how the towns name
is pronouced, or you may now the sound of the name, but not
know what Kange it is. As a result its very difficult to
navigate but if you know english, most prefectures have
instituted international signs of both Japanese and english.
Typical Japanese ignore the english, I do my best to pronouce
English Japanese, and you get this response "where, where?" [A
little Japanese curse]. Its gets pretty bad if a foriegner can
pronounce the name of a town and 30 miles outside of your
town, you cannot based on the Kange. Eventually I ended up
driving [Shame on me]. That Hirogana, Katakana guy should have
convinced the emperor to get rid of Kange. The bright side is
I had this guy working for me from deep within china, who
spoke absolutely no english, he wrote in old style chinese,
which is apparently what the real caligraphy oriented schools
teach in Japan also teach, they can write little notes to each
other. So this is language for you, you cannot pronounce the
name of some town 30 miles away from where you are born, but
you can communicate with a complete stranger from 1500 miles
away. I sure you guys are going to tell me that written
language and spoken language are different, If so why make the
effort to have an alphabet that can be used to annunciate your
language. Koreans have, still, another alphabet. Those Chukchi
living up north of Japan have still other languages. I just
love the nuances of asian culture, they always keep you on
your toes.

BTW, genes don't lie. They are not as subject to selective
forces as bones and environmental forces such as robustness.
They tend to stay more or less constant as other things vary.
I know it is difficult for some people to get over the

'genetic' barrier, but keep in mind, every cell in the body,
from the top of your head to the cells you slough off when you
walk are encoded by your DNA, its not like humans can go
through a period of evolution and forget to take their DNA
along for the ride. It is morphology, and more, it is
intelligence and more, it is langauge and more. It is
everything you know about yourself, and more. Placing faith in
the calcerous morphological remains over genes will prove
itself to be risky for those that strictly adhere to this. The
genetic database per individual is in the billions, the number
of features we know about bones in the hundreds. People make
mistakes, but their genes are always true to them.

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Ejudy]

pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote:

> BTW, genes don't lie. They are not as subject to selective
> forces as bones and environmental forces such as robustness.
> They tend to stay more or less constant as other things
> vary. I know it is difficult for some people to get over the
>
> 'genetic' barrier, but keep in mind, every cell in the
> body, from the top of your head to the cells you slough off
> when you walk are encoded by your DNA, its not like humans
> can go through a period of evolution and forget to take
> their DNA along for the ride. It is morphology, and more,
> it is intelligence and more, it is langauge and more. It is
> everything you know about yourself, and more. Placing faith
> in the calcerous morphological remains over genes will
> prove itself to be risky for those that strictly adhere to
> this. The genetic database per individual is in the
> billions, the number of features we know about bones in the
> hundreds. People make mistakes, but their genes are always
> true to them.
>
>
> Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu>

Can you _date_ these divergences if you can see them as
having occured?

Thanks, ejudy

BTW, i don't ever have to be plagued by that malicious "bob"
who ~acts~ like a virus again. What a relief! Its funny how he
seemed to keep popping up everywhere, lying about intent,
stirring up confusion, diverting progress etc. But killfiles
and/or even just plain ignoring quoted snips (grin) works
lovely to clean up the pollution around here. I have learned
about the value of keeping the air fresh.

I hope you keep up these nice informative postings as that is
one of the best features we have around here. Back to
pertinent topics on human history. And Thanks.

ejudy

[Paul Kekai]

pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote in message
news:<3ec43a5c.197044@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> On 15 May 2002 09:40:57 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
> >Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
> >news:<24e3eusgemjo32n51toa5ekjvcao7lrl9i@4ax.com>...
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. Origin of caucasian. The stereotypic caucasian lived
> >> in the region of europe from england to the black sea
> >> before the end of the last ice age.
> >
> >Could you provide a ref. (osteological) for this assertion
> >in the sense of a series rather than stray samples.
>
> Whose bones do you want me to steal?

Bones from before the end of the Ice Age, of course. You can't
identify "stereotypic caucasians" from this period using
modern haplotypes, since the latter won't tell you what the
people looked like.

>
> I have a number of haplotypes that I cannot present
> unfortunately, The database is from the 11th Workshop on
> HLA. But I cannot present 'everything' here because some of
> the associations will be apart of future manuscripts so
> leave it at that. I have one today, in which an "allele"
> which causes a certain disease in Italy and Sardinians,
> patient shows up with same disease from Philipines, turns
> out its a very common haplotype in the philipines, thinking
> niavely that I would be lucky to allign even three loci, I
> managed to get an allignment of 7 different loci in one of
> the predominant haplotypes in the philipines. The only other
> place where this haplotype is found outside of southern
> china (buyi), philipines (regional node) and sardinia
> (regional node) is guess where. Give you a hint begins with
> a J. Now while I was doing this I wanted to know, did this
> come from asia to west or from west to asia. The way you can
> tell is who has the greatest regional diversity, IOW you
> will find that a nest of alleles gets shaved as they travel
> and eventually loose diversity. The greatest diversity of
> this haplotype is guess where?
>
> A. India
> B. Western europe
> C. SE asia
>

The diversity could be obscured because of genetic extinction.
One would expect much more distribution of this haplotype in
the intervening areas. Unless you're suggesting Sardinians
made non-stop sea voyages to Japan, China, Melanesia and the
Philippines.

Also, this and the other haplotype you mention may be due to
separate events especially when you are discussing HLA.

> Now I wasn't even interested today in DQB05031 but as per
> chance it had a 05 in it so I just jotted down the haplotype
> frequencies since I was looking at 2 other similar alleles.
> Now I have about 7 more DQ types to go through before I
> finish this 'sample' survey for a particular disease. What
> do you think Paul, tommorow I might presenting 2 or 3 more
> associations linking NE asia with Europe?
>

You're "genetic associations" are meaningless without other
data. Even if you happened to find greater diversity in Europe
it is not convincing as an overall argument. What
archaeological, linguistic, osteological or other evidence is
there for stereotypic caucasian migration from Europe to
Japan, the Philippines and Melanesia prior to the end of the
last Ice Age?

There is plenty of evidence for Holocene gene flow from East
Asia into Europe and into Melanesia (Austronesian) that could
explain the haplotypes.

> >How do you deifne a "stereotypic caucasian."
>
> Use a strong victorian definition of your choice. The only
> reason I used this is there is a pretext for defining a
> nodal center.

If the haplotypes you describe are found only among limited
populations in Europe, then they can't be defined as
"stereotypic caucasian."

> >Even the early Holocene skeletal material from Europe would
> >not fit foresenically into what we know as "Caucasian."

> My 'crazy' prediction is that caucasians that once lived
> in france and germany did not resemble much the caucasians
> that live their today, because those caucasians now live
> in the indo pacific highland, northern Japan, and are
> mixed like hell with local people

Sorry, "Caucasian" is a forensic description, and
Indo-Pacific, Northern Japanese, etc. don't fit into that
description.

> >The skeletons associated with the European megaliths, don't
> >have the facial characteristics of modern Europeans. In
> >many ways, they resemble Andaman Islanders or Australian
> >Aborigines.
>
> Not surprising. Probably looked more like the basque, or the
> ainu or the melanesian highlanders.

These people you mention don't look anything alike. Nor are
they genetically alike, except maybe Ainu and Melanesians.

You don't get the point.
> I will eventually append my site, but all the french '5
> gene' haplotypes have higher frequencies outside of france,
> in some cases very far away, with a tendency for that 'Far
> Away' to be in North-east asia.

You seem to just go around finding random markers that agree
with your viewpoint but ignore contradictory data. For
example, Stephen Oppenheimer has found evidence of the
movement of SE Asian hemoglobin markers that he believes moved
as far as Europe, based again on genetic diversity.

What other evidence is there of N. European seafarers who
ventured all the way to Japan, SE Asia and the Pacific during
the Ice Age? What types of boats did they use?

Any markers as widespread as you suggest would likely have
either Altaic or Austronesian origin, possibly also
Finno-Ugric and come from the Holocene period. Earlier markers
would have been diffused much more slowly and should not have
such wide gaps in their distribution except through widespread
gene extinction. In the latter case, genetic diversity would
be an unrealiable way of determining location of origin.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Ejudy]

Philip Deitiker wrote :

> People make mistakes, but their genes are always true to
> them.
>

Question: are the people's mistakes random and nondirectional?
Or is there intentionality?

(referring here to a Nobel laureat's lab research notes
scrutinized for why there were such a surprizing number of
mistakes. He was exhonerated on the basis of the randomness).

ejudy

[Philip Dei]

On 16 May 2002 10:26:37 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
Manansala) wrote:

>The diversity could be obscured because of genetic
>extinction. One would expect much more distribution of this
>haplotype in the intervening areas. Unless you're suggesting
>Sardinians made non-stop sea voyages to Japan, China,
>Melanesia and the Philippines.

Yes one would. But the trail looks like it hugged the east
asian coastline, 15,000 years ago that coastline would be 500
miles east of where it is now.

>Also, this and the other haplotype you mention may be due to
>separate events especially when you are discussing HLA.

Some yes, but with the number I have uncovered it is not
likely, as in all but impossible.

>> Now I wasn't even interested today in DQB05031 but as per
>> chance it had a 05 in it so I just jotted down the
>> haplotype frequencies since I was looking at 2 other
>> similar alleles. Now I have about 7 more DQ types to go
>> through before I finish this 'sample' survey for a
>> particular disease. What do you think Paul, tommorow I
>> might presenting 2 or 3 more associations linking NE asia
>> with Europe?

>You're "genetic associations" are meaningless without
>other data.

Wanna make a 10 year bet on it? Let's put some money on it.

>Even if you happened to find greater diversity in Europe it
>is not convincing as an overall argument.

One haplotype no. I spent the better part of this afternoon
with yet another (I think now I'm up to 12 or thirteen) where
having difficult aligning the haplotypes at moderate to low
frequency in asia, except Japan, found the haplotype in
sardinia, again at low frequency, then italy, then spain,
germany . . This one is an old one. In anycase, it is the
predominant association with disease in Japan. So one of my
Caucasian (early onset) patients shows up with a Japanese
haplotype which is early onset female. But the difference is
in japan there are only a few haplotypes with a few
dominating, from what I understand mostly in the northern part
of Japan. In Western asia there are many with 2 strong DR
associations (110X and 04XX) and a plentitude of minor
variants such that the ancestral haplotype is no longer
resolvable. There is no evidence of haplotypes in the
intervening population and related haplotypes are found in
taiwan, and the indonesian highland (with variation around the
core haplotype found in Japan).

>What archaeological, linguistic, osteological or other
>evidence is there for stereotypic caucasian migration from
>Europe to Japan, the Philippines and Melanesia prior to the
>end of the last Ice Age?

Buddy don't play political games with me by creating paper
tigers to beat, you know exactly what I said. The so-called
'stereotypical' caucasion was isolated to the north of the
'evacuated' population and this 'stereotypical' ancestral
population does not appear in any significant degree in east
asian in terms of alleles. For example the super B8 haplotype,
which characterizes the british, cornish, swedish and slovac
populations is not present to any degree any farther northeast
than the ural mountains or south of nothern india. The
haplotypes that appear in east asia are centered between
spain, sardonia, italy and austri (and probably switzerland if
it had been sampled) I think if you wanted phenotypes you
could probably use the Ice man as a remnant example. I do
fully expect that this, prior to the end of the last ice age
was a morphology all to itself, a specific node. It does not,
and should not be a 'stereotypical' caucasian, but it should
fall within the bounds of current west eurasian variation,
even if it is at the extremes of the endemic population.

>There is plenty of evidence for Holocene gene flow from East
>Asia into Europe and into Melanesia (Austronesian) that could
>explain the haplotypes.

Where is this evidence? The sardinian population, for the
alleles it does have, it does not have many of the worlds
alleles, some are very old, with endloci of haplotypes
recombined to the point there are no associations. What is
unique in france and italy is 40 or 50 low frequency
haplotypes that have, besides being depleted, have also
heavily recombined.

>If the haplotypes you describe are found only among limited
>populations in Europe, then they can't be defined as
>"stereotypic caucasian."

Do you know what a stereotype is?

>> My 'crazy' prediction is that caucasians that once lived
>> in france and germany did not resemble much the
>> caucasians that live their today, because those
>> caucasians now live in the indo pacific highland,
>> northern Japan, and are mixed like hell with local people
>
>
>Sorry, "Caucasian" is a forensic description, and
>Indo-Pacific, Northern Japanese, etc. don't fit into that
>description.

Go for you, legal beagle. You know what I meant, if you are
going to play politics and not science you can join BK in
the killfile.

>Any markers as widespread as you suggest would likely have
>either Altaic or Austronesian origin, possibly also
>Finno-Ugric and come from the Holocene period. Earlier
>markers would have been diffused much more slowly and should
>not have such wide gaps in their distribution except through
>widespread gene extinction. In the latter case, genetic
>diversity would be an unrealiable way of determining location
>of origin.

And if I was going to fabricate a lie, like the kind you seem
to want to fabricate I would tell you that there was. The
uralic sometimes have the intermediate haplotypes but mostly
they don't. Which can mean

A. I'm wrong
B. That these western eurasians did not hang around the
Finno-ugric populations long enough to exchange DNA. The
finno-Ugric population does have a number of western
eurasian markers, not surprising they have the super B8
haplotype and some greek markers.

By the way Paul, does the earth seem flat, to you, or round?

. . . . . . . . Just to make a remark about something
above I said:

Yes one would. But the trail looks like it hugged the east
asian coastline, 15,000 years ago that coastline would be 500
miles east of where it is now.

This putative movement is diametrically opposed to what I
would have believed a month ago. It is true the we had
uncovered some west eurasian like mtDNA alleles that had
traveled down the ryukyu, but not much in the way of
substantive evidence. It is possible that males move faster in
females in this migration. Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Ejudy]

ejudy@my-deja.com (ejudy) wrote in message
news:<46e43451.0205170533.2e70f99c@posting.google.com>...
> Philip Deitiker wrote :
>
> > People make mistakes, but their genes are always true
> > to them.
> >
>
> Question: are the people's mistakes random and
> nondirectional? Or is there intentionality?
>
> (referring here to a Nobel laureat's lab research notes
> scrutinized for why there were such a surprizing number of
> mistakes. He was exhonerated on the basis of the
> randomness).
>
>
> ejudy

I was thinking, maybe "god" or dieties were born with
intentionality.

ejudy

[Bob Keeter]

in article 46e43451.0205160720.1c65780b@posting.google.com,
ejudy at ejudy@my-deja.com wrote on 5/16/02 10:20 AM:

Snippage. . . . . . . .

>
> BTW, i don't ever have to be plagued by that malicious "bob"
> who ~acts~ like a virus again.

Nice touch! Yes, "bob" is a terribly malicious, vile and
dispicable person, bent on destroying all that is pure, just,
honest and admirable in the world! Its a worm that despises
the scourge of elitism, the stain of bigotry and simply
enjoys to no end the simple pleasure of having a good laugh
at the expense of egotism. If that makes me a virus, who
needs a cell membrane!

> What a relief! Its funny how he seemed to keep popping up
> everywhere, lying about intent, stirring up confusion,
> diverting progress etc.

This is a test! This is ONLY a test! Do not panic! 8-)

> But killfiles and/or even just plain ignoring quoted snips
> (grin) works lovely to clean up the pollution around here.

We will wait for a response, if only a thinly veiled
reference, obliquely set into one of the psalms of praise to
the great God of truth, knowledge and the "scientifically
correct" head in the sand. 8-)))

> I have learned about the value of keeping the air fresh.
>
> I hope you keep up these nice informative postings as that
> is one of the best features we have around here. Back to
> pertinent topics on human history. And Thanks.

;-))))))))))) Gotta love it! 8-)

But, at least for now, THIS incredibly virilent, nasty,
despicable, and most unworthy-of -licking-Philip's-boots,
oversized, multicellular virus is going off of this little
train of thought. 8-)

Need to spend sometime tracing that other WINDOWS-only virus
back to its source. Learned a couple of new tricks with
checking mail logs, headers and such that MIGHT at least let
me identify the origin and warn them. Cant really do anything
about the Korean spammers that got our addresses folks, but
maybe can find the virus that almost certainly started the
problem, and at least ask that it be shut down. Once I find
enough of the fingerprints, will post them so you can draw
your own conclusions.

I will be watching for that "killfiled" response though! 8-)
CYA, Dr. Torquemada!

Regards bk

[Paul Kekai]

pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote in message
news:<3ec5a457.201485@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> On 16 May 2002 10:26:37 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
>
> >The diversity could be obscured because of genetic
> >extinction. One would expect much more distribution of this
> >haplotype in the intervening areas. Unless you're
> >suggesting Sardinians made non-stop sea voyages to Japan,
> >China, Melanesia and the Philippines.
>
> Yes one would. But the trail looks like it hugged the east
> asian coastline, 15,000 years ago that coastline would be
> 500 miles east of where it is now.
>

There is no such trail.

Again, this is only old leftovers from old racist theories
where Europeans tried to rob all the accomplishments of people
in the non-white world for the "white race."

They threaded together a mythical trail of "lost whites" who
ventured into Polynesia, Mexico, South Africa, SE Asia etc.
and founded cultures/civilizations and then vanished or got
all "mixed" up.

One would hope these theories would have vanished also.

> >Also, this and the other haplotype you mention may be due
> >to separate events especially when you are discussing HLA.
>
> Some yes, but with the number I have uncovered it is not
> likely, as in all but impossible.
>
> >> Now I wasn't even interested today in DQB05031 but as per
> >> chance it had a 05 in it so I just jotted down the
> >> haplotype frequencies since I was looking at 2 other
> >> similar alleles. Now I have about 7 more DQ types to go
> >> through before I finish this 'sample' survey for a
> >> particular disease. What do you think Paul, tommorow I
> >> might presenting 2 or 3 more associations linking NE asia
> >> with Europe?
>

These are your associations probably based on insufficient
sampling because no one else is mentioning them.

Even widely published studies often have poor geographic
sampling. I can imagine how your unpublished, undocumented
studies much be far worse.

> >You're "genetic associations" are meaningless without
> >other data.
>
> Wanna make a 10 year bet on it? Let's put some money on it.
>

No talk, what's the other data?

> >There is plenty of evidence for Holocene gene flow from
> >East Asia into Europe and into Melanesia (Austronesian)
> >that could explain the haplotypes.
>
> Where is this evidence? The sardinian population, for the
> alleles it does have, it does not have many of the worlds
> alleles, some are very old, with endloci of haplotypes
> recombined to the point there are no associations. What is
> unique in france and italy is 40 or 50 low frequency
> haplotypes that have, besides being depleted, have also
> heavily recombined.
>

The evidence is linguistic, historical, archaeological, etc.
No one doubts the repeated movement of nomadic peoples from as
far east as the Altai into Europe. These same people had
influence in Japan as attested by the Altaic markings on the
Japanese language. Austronesian influence is also seen in the
Japanese language, and in NE Asian cultures there is
osteological and cultural evidence from archaeology showing an
Austronesian link.

No one doubts Austronesian influence in Melanesia, where the
most widespread languages belong to this family.

OTOH, what is the evidence for pre-Holocene European migration
to Japan, the Pacific other than your personally researched
markers...zero.

Only people like Brace with his Neanderthals = Caucasoids
theory are making such claims.

> >If the haplotypes you describe are found only among limited
> >populations in Europe, then they can't be defined as
> >"stereotypic caucasian."
>
> Do you know what a stereotype is?
>

The distribution of these haplotypes is so limited in Europe,
yet you claim these guys were sailing all the way to Japan
and Melanesia??? Why couldn't they make it to France or
England? One would expect a much broader distribution closer
to Sardinia.

With such a wide distribution in Asia and the Pacific, it's
fairly obvious where these markers come from. They are
outliers in Europe, but you may have spent a lot of time
stacking up their "genetic diversity" there.

The fact that you insist on using a term like "caucasian"
to describe even people at 40 kya who you are indentifying
only with obscure haplotypes shows they you are keenly
interested in racial theory despite your repeated
disclaimers. I'll continue to comment on any non-sense you
post, killfilled or not.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Paul Kekai]

pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote in message
news:<3ec5a457.201485@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> On 16 May 2002 10:26:37 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> Manansala) wrote:
>
>
> >The diversity could be obscured because of genetic
> >extinction. One would expect much more distribution of this
> >haplotype in the intervening areas. Unless you're
> >suggesting Sardinians made non-stop sea voyages to Japan,
> >China, Melanesia and the Philippines.
>
> Yes one would. But the trail looks like it hugged the east
> asian coastline, 15,000 years ago that coastline would be
> 500 miles east of where it is now.
>
>

You forgot to mention what boats did they use and how did they
get from Sardinia to East Asia?

Sardinian kayaks along the north Eurasian coast during the Ice
Age? That would have been something. This area is hard enough
to navigate in the Holocene.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Philip Dei]

On 17 May 2002 19:58:42 -0700, ejudy@my-deja.com (ejudy)
wrote:

>> (referring here to a Nobel laureat's lab research notes
>> scrutinized for why there were such a surprizing number of
>> mistakes. He was exhonerated on the basis of the
>> randomness).
>>
>>
>> ejudy
>
>I was thinking, maybe "god" or dieties were born with
>intentionality.

Randomization of haplotypes is part of the grand design of
eucaryotes. That is why there are 2 sexes. The sexual
reprodcution process requires miotic division which is
tolerant of recombination. In this way alleles are always
being shuffled at loci and every generation we get a redealing
of the cards. In the examples given in other thread Cw is
close to B and so it stays with B a long time, where as A is
constantly reshuffling with cw/B. Apparently this presented a
problem in adaptation of S Amer Indians so they underwent
rapid selection for gene converted alleles at Cw and B with
few convertants at A. Its like being tied to a bad spouse. You
can't divorce him so what you do is take him into the surgeon,
take out a few things you don't like, shove in a few you do,
and live with it. lol.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Doug Welle]

On Fri, 17 May 2002 03:21:21 GMT, in sci.anthropology.paleo,
Philip Deitiker wrote:

>On 16 May 2002 10:26:37 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
>Manansala) wrote:
>
[SNIP]
>
>>If the haplotypes you describe are found only among limited
>>populations in Europe, then they can't be defined as
>>"stereotypic caucasian."
>
>Do you know what a stereotype is?

I'd appreciate it if you'd explain for my benefit.

>>> My 'crazy' prediction is that caucasians that once lived
>>> in france and germany did not resemble much the
>>> caucasians that live their today, because those
>>> caucasians now live in the indo pacific highland,
>>> northern Japan, and are mixed like hell with local
>>> people
>>
>>
>>Sorry, "Caucasian" is a forensic description, and
>>Indo-Pacific, Northern Japanese, etc. don't fit into that
>>description.
>
>Go for you, legal beagle. You know what I meant, if you are
>going to play politics and not science you can join BK in the
>killfile.

And again here, I don't know what you mean. I'm not even sure
what Paul means!

Thanks.

[SNIP]

Doug Doug Weller member of moderation panel
sci.archaeology.moderated Submissions to:
sci-archaeology-moderated@medieval.org Doug's Archaeology
Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk Co-owner UK-Schools
mailing list: email me for details

[Ejudy]

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:<pvnbeu45lg8jet6o5qrhfrjetfsqb56863@4ax.com>...
> On 17 May 2002 19:58:42 -0700, ejudy@my-deja.com
> (ejudy) wrote:
>
>
> >> (referring here to a Nobel laureat's lab research notes
> >> scrutinized for why there were such a surprizing number
> >> of mistakes. He was exhonerated on the basis of the
> >> randomness).
> >>
> >>
> >> ejudy
> >
> >I was thinking, maybe "god" or dieties were born with
> >intentionality.
>
> Randomization of haplotypes is part of the grand design of
> eucaryotes. That is why there are 2 sexes. The sexual
> reprodcution process requires miotic division which is
> tolerant of recombination. In this way alleles are always
> being shuffled at loci and every generation we get a
> redealing of the cards. In the examples given in other
> thread Cw is close to B and so it stays with B a long time,
> where as A is constantly reshuffling with cw/B. Apparently
> this presented a problem in adaptation of S Amer Indians so
> they underwent rapid selection for gene converted alleles at
> Cw and B with few convertants at A. Its like being tied to a
> bad spouse. You can't divorce him so what you do is take him
> into the surgeon, take out a few things you don't like,
> shove in a few you do, and live with it. lol.
>
>
So is it like Cw and B are married and "A" is jimmy swager.
Jimmy says on TV (seemingly)to B that the ol hubby (Cw) oughta
take in Jesus and shell out mega$$ to his show. And B is
thinking "that Jimmy's so cute and he looks right in my eyes
(from that ol TV screen) so he must be talking to me". So,
even though Cw seems set in his ways and will have none of the
TV evangelism, A does manage to shuffleboard her old grumpy
guy into to see the doctor who tells him he's gotta stop his
drinking and brawling or he's gonna lose his $$, his wife and
his life real soon. Then Cw turns over a new leaf, "B" finds a
little extra jesus in her matrimonial bed (cutting down the
whiskey helped the ol ------, it was a miracle or perhaps the
viagra along with the prozac that the doc gave Cw) and jimmy
swager just keeps on sermonizing out from the late night blue
flickering screen......and life goes on.

So does that sorta describe "rapid selection for gene
converted alleles at Cw and B with few convertants at A?

I guess i was trying to imply "intentionality" as the same as
the capacity for culture (maybe this gets into symbolism).

ejudy;-)
------------------
And a quote about patriotism as a major reason for war:

"Patriotism may be defined as a sense of partisan solidarity
in respect of prestige....The patriotic spirit is a spirit of
emulation shot thru with a sense of solidarity. It belongs
under the general caption of sportsmanship, rather than that
of workmanship....Its aim is a different gain, as against a
rival....Well-being is altogether out of the
perspective.....Patriotism is of a contentious complexion, and
finds its full expression in no other outlet than warlike
enterprise....Patriotism is evidently a spirit of
particularism, of aliency and animosity; it lives on invidious
comparison, and works out in mutual hindrance and jealousy
between nations." Thorstein Veblen

-----------
Fun breakfast topics when the relatives arrive for Sunday
brunch: The theme song of evolution when it functions at the
level of complexity called culture maybe be a form of
patriotism. How often do theme songs of nations leave out that
"blessed by god to go and kill all that would kill us" type
deal? Its always in there! Or "You are the chosen" yet "Thou
shalt not kill!" How do we reconcile these paradoxical mixed
messages? Nationalism. Or maybe you could call it
recombination and reshuffling... .....money is in there too
somewhere....starting to sound a little too much like jimmy
swager.....hehe...

[Philip Dei]

On 18 May 2002 16:56:15 -0500, Doug Weller
<dweller@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>>Do you know what a stereotype is?
>
>I'd appreciate it if you'd explain for my benefit.

Stereotypic -A standardized mental picture held in common by a
group which represents and oversimplified version of reality.

In this case people tend to think that the
anglo-nordo-germanic morphology is to some degree the 'core'
of caucasin morphology. I however would disagree because the
'core' appears to have been eliminated or transferred (and
mixed) by some catastrophic event. The anglo-centric
definition of what a caucasian is biased by a more recent
expansion from west to east and then radially.

>>>> My 'crazy' prediction is that caucasians that once
>>>> lived in france and germany did not resemble much the
>>>> caucasians that live their today, because those
>>>> caucasians now live in the indo pacific highland,
>>>> northern Japan, and are mixed like hell with local
>>>> people
>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry, "Caucasian" is a forensic description, and
>>>Indo-Pacific, Northern Japanese, etc. don't fit into that
>>>description.
>>
>>Go for you, legal beagle. You know what I meant, if you are
>>going to play politics and not science you can join BK in
>>the killfile.
>
>And again here, I don't know what you mean. I'm not even sure
>what Paul means!

Caucasian is used in forensic and legal desriptions and is
still highly used in science, they have not adapted my 'nodal'
scheme as of yet,lol, but in essence caucasian is a lumping of
many west eurasian derived nodes.

What I mean, is the Paul it trying to drive a scientific based
arguments into legalisms and legalistic mumbo-jumbo.

>Thanks.

Your Welcome.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Paul Kekai]

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<63jdeuc3n9fkmma19d01nrsrbn2cvu51qp@4ax.com>...
> On Fri, 17 May 2002 03:21:21 GMT, in sci.anthropology.paleo,
> Philip Deitiker wrote:
>
> >On 16 May 2002 10:26:37 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
> >Manansala) wrote:
>
>
> >>> My 'crazy' prediction is that caucasians that once
> >>> lived in france and germany did not resemble much the
> >>> caucasians that live their today, because those
> >>> caucasians now live in the indo pacific highland,
> >>> northern Japan, and are mixed like hell with local
> >>> people
> >>
> >>
> >>Sorry, "Caucasian" is a forensic description, and
> >>Indo-Pacific, Northern Japanese, etc. don't fit into that
> >>description.
> >
> >Go for you, legal beagle. You know what I meant, if you are
> >going to play politics and not science you can join BK in
> >the killfile.
>
> And again here, I don't know what you mean. I'm not even
> sure what Paul means!
>

The way "Caucasian" is used today it means strictly "white
person" in English.

Indo-Pacific highlanders and northern Japanese don't fit that
description. Nor do the series of recovered skeletal remains
from different periods in these region.

All the stuff about 'full mixing' and male-only migrations
(herrenvolk) are just concocted explanations to force the
realities to fit into the fantasies.

Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

[Firstjois]

"Paul Kekai Manansala" <kekai@jps.net> wrote in message
news:fa7fb915.0205190800.cfe41d6@posting.google.com...
: Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<63jdeuc3n9fkmma19d01nrsrbn2cvu51qp@4ax.com>...
: > On Fri, 17 May 2002 03:21:21 GMT, in
: > sci.anthropology.paleo, Philip
Deitiker wrote:
: >
: > >On 16 May 2002 10:26:37 -0700, kekai@jps.net (Paul Kekai
: > >Manansala) wrote:
: >
: >
: > >>> My 'crazy' prediction is that caucasians that once
: > >>> lived in france and germany did not resemble much
: > >>> the caucasians that live their today, because those
: > >>> caucasians now live in the indo pacific highland,
: > >>> northern Japan, and are mixed like hell with local
: > >>> people
: > >>
: > >>
: > >>Sorry, "Caucasian" is a forensic description, and
: > >>Indo-Pacific, Northern Japanese, etc. don't fit into
: > >>that description.
: > >
: > >Go for you, legal beagle. You know what I meant, if you
: > >are going to play politics and not science you can join
: > >BK in the killfile.
: >
: > And again here, I don't know what you mean. I'm not even
: > sure what Paul
means!
: >
:
:
: The way "Caucasian" is used today it means strictly "white
: person" in English.
:
: Indo-Pacific highlanders and northern Japanese don't fit
: that description. Nor do the series of recovered skeletal
: remains from different periods in these region.
:
: All the stuff about 'full mixing' and male-only migrations
: (herrenvolk) are just concocted explanations to force the
: realities to fit into the fantasies.
:
: Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala

Paul, There may be great value in looking reality in the eye
and denying it. But if you do this, and I think people who do
this do have a choice, then phrase your assertions in "IMO"
or "IMHO" for some might actually be interested in your
opinion. Probably be years before anyone can carve all this
into stone anyway.

Jois