jewish genetic ancestry NYT article

[Ejudy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/social/14GENE.html

Worthwhile article,IMHO.

ejudy

[Bob Keeter]

in article 46e43451.0205141320.96dd7f6@posting.google.com,
ejudy at ejudy@my-deja.com wrote on 5/14/02 4:20 PM:

> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/social/14GENE.html
>
> Worthwhile article,IMHO.
>
> ejudy

You are right!

Particularly liked the part about the fact that "trading
communitiies" with relatively low numbers could end up
"seeding" the local gerome under the right circumstances. The
one part that still has me scratching my stupid head is that
the female gerome did not show any real traceability (at least
not in the same terms as the Jewish male gerome!). Really not
sure how that might play.

that last paragraph sure was interesting though! 8-)

Regards bk

[Gisele Hor]

On 14 May 2002 14:20:05 -0700, ejudy@my-deja.com (ejudy)
wrote:

>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/social/14GENE.html
>
>Worthwhile article,IMHO.

Thanks.

"...the men and women who founded the Jewish communities had
surprisingly different genetic histories."

We've all seen the different migration paths of men and women
reported before ... but, what I would like to know is where
mtDNA & y chromosome findings agree.

Gisele

[Pete]

Bob Keeter wrote:

> local gerome

> female gerome

> male gerome!

Jean-Léon Gérôme

--
pete

[Ben Buckne]

Gisele Horvat wrote:
>
> On 14 May 2002 14:20:05 -0700, ejudy@my-deja.com
> (ejudy) wrote:
>
> >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/social/14GE-
> >NE.html
> >
> >Worthwhile article,IMHO.
>
> Thanks.
>
> "...the men and women who founded the Jewish communities had
> surprisingly different genetic histories."
>
> We've all seen the different migration paths of men and
> women reported before ... but, what I would like to know is
> where mtDNA & y chromosome findings agree.

Yeah, that's what struck me about the article, that it doesn't
sound much different from other European communities for which
I've read studies.

Ben B.

[Curtadams]

rkeeter@earthlink.net writes:

>Particularly liked the part about the fact that "trading
>communitiies" with relatively low numbers could end up
>"seeding" the local gerome under the right circumstances. The
>one part that still has me scratching my stupid head is that
>the female gerome did not show any real traceability (at
>least not in the same terms as the Jewish male gerome!).
>Really not sure how that might play.

I'm going to hypothesize the observations result from small
effective population sizes, interbreeding, and male rabbinical
descent. Jewish populations must interbreed with local
non-Jews, simply as they look pretty much like the locals. If
the population size is small and interbreeding rare within a
generation, though, you'll have little diversity just from
stocastic extinction. So Jews end up with the observed mtDNA
distribution in all non-Y genes - a small number of alleles in
each population, with no obvious related population as drift
has munged the frequencies.

With the Y, though, there's a different phenomenom. Stochastic
extinction of all Palestine-origin Y's means extinction of the
rabbinical lineage. So one gets imported. The rabbinical Y's,
thus, cannot go extinct. Non-rabbinical Ys, however, can. So
the rabbinical Y keeps getting rescued until all other Ys die
out; then it's fixed and it stays. End result: low diversity
genes of unclear orgin everywhere except the Y, where you have
low diversity of Palestinian origin.

Curt Adams (curtadams@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than
to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

[Diarmid Lo]

curtadams@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message
news:<20020514215951.02590.00012145@mb-dh.aol.com>...
> rkeeter@earthlink.net writes:
>
> >Particularly liked the part about the fact that "trading
> >communitiies" with relatively low numbers could end up
> >"seeding" the local gerome under the right circumstances.
> >The one part that still has me scratching my stupid head is
> >that the female gerome did not show any real traceability
> >(at least not in the same terms as the Jewish male
> >gerome!). Really not sure how that might play.
>
> I'm going to hypothesize the observations result from small
> effective population sizes, interbreeding, and male
> rabbinical descent. Jewish populations must interbreed with
> local non-Jews, simply as they look pretty much like the
> locals. If the population size is small and interbreeding
> rare within a generation, though, you'll have little
> diversity just from stocastic extinction. So Jews end up
> with the observed mtDNA distribution in all non-Y genes - a
> small number of alleles in each population, with no obvious
> related population as drift has munged the frequencies.
>
> With the Y, though, there's a different phenomenom.
> Stochastic extinction of all Palestine-origin Y's means
> extinction of the rabbinical lineage. So one gets
> imported. The rabbinical Y's, thus, cannot go extinct.
> Non-rabbinical Ys, however, can. So the rabbinical Y keeps
> getting rescued until all other Ys die out; then it's
> fixed and it stays. End result: low diversity genes of
> unclear orgin everywhere except the Y, where you have low
> diversity of Palestinian origin.
>
> Curt Adams (curtadams@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong
> than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

But if the mitochondrial DNA came from the local population
how come the researchers were not able to trace it? From what
I read in the article the researchers put forth the
possibility that the women may have been locals but do not say
that they were definitely locals.

[Bob Keeter]

in article
6d220a72.0205151059.61ed0f8b@posting.google.com, Diarmid
Logan at diarmidlogan@yahoo.com wrote on 5/15/02 1:59 PM:

> curtadams@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message
> news:<20020514215951.02590.00012145@mb-dh.aol.com>...
>> rkeeter@earthlink.net writes:
>>
>>> Particularly liked the part about the fact that "trading
>>> communitiies" with relatively low numbers could end up
>>> "seeding" the local gerome under the right circumstances.
>>> The one part that still has me scratching my stupid head
>>> is that the female gerome did not show any real
>>> traceability (at least not in the same terms as the Jewish
>>> male gerome!). Really not sure how that might play.
>>
>> I'm going to hypothesize the observations result from small
>> effective population sizes, interbreeding, and male
>> rabbinical descent. Jewish populations must interbreed with
>> local non-Jews, simply as they look pretty much like the
>> locals. If the population size is small and interbreeding
>> rare within a generation, though, you'll have little
>> diversity just from stocastic extinction. So Jews end up
>> with the observed mtDNA distribution in all non-Y genes - a
>> small number of alleles in each population, with no obvious
>> related population as drift has munged the frequencies.
>>
>> With the Y, though, there's a different phenomenom.
>> Stochastic extinction of all Palestine-origin Y's means
>> extinction of the rabbinical lineage. So one gets imported.
>> The rabbinical Y's, thus, cannot go extinct. Non-rabbinical
>> Ys, however, can. So the rabbinical Y keeps getting rescued
>> until all other Ys die out; then it's fixed and it stays.
>> End result: low diversity genes of unclear orgin everywhere
>> except the Y, where you have low diversity of Palestinian
>> origin.
>>
>> Curt Adams (curtadams@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong
>> than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
>
>
> But if the mitochondrial DNA came from the local population
> how come the researchers were not able to trace it? From
> what I read in the article the researchers put forth the
> possibility that the women may have been locals but do not
> say that they were definitely locals.

Just a cockeyed conjecture, since of course only qualified
people can offer up hypotheses and it appears that only
lunatics bother with theories! ;-)

Could it possibly be that the "mixing" kept the mtDNA stirred
up enough, with enough "newcommer" contribution that it just
sort of settled into the "grey" area. i.e. if the Jewish
population was somewhat transient, reaching out into an area,
acquiring some "outlander" wives, moving back into the fold to
mingle with the other travelers that took other directions,
etc, etc, etc. Instead of having invaders bring "alien" dna to
the party, a trading community might just bring in the new
material on its own. Enough contributors, all mixed up, and
you end up with gray!

Told you it was crazy, of course if you look at some of the
more multi-racial, multi-ethnic countries and areas today, for
example England, Holland, and even the big cities of the US, I
would not be too surprised where a given strand of DNA might
have its roots! Perhaps we are even headed for a "gray" mix of
genes across the species. You know given all of the bad things
that have happened because of such minor differences in
people, might not be a bad idea. 8-)

Regards bk