Basque, Cornish, Welch, Pict. Prehistoric Western European

[Philip Dei]

There has been alot of commentary about the origin of
the Basque.

In my never ending desire to trump my fellow scientist and
come to a conclusion before some other dude presents his stuff
in some Journal.

This is not mtDNA, but because of disclosure stuff I can't say
exactly what I am working on at the moment. If you scrape
common N.european and Celtic allele frequencies off of the
basque you find that the Basque are a relatively isolated
group in europe, but when you further correct for those
influences you find Basque specific alleles at high
frequencies in welch, cornish, french and spanish.

[The number below are percent in haplotype frequencies of 5
genes in the human population, the highest is 11.4% in the,
guess who, sardinians), * = haplotype of highest freq in a
given pop] Basque haplotype freq (5 genes) (Ld = 3 to 5) pop
hap 1 hap 2 hap 3 Basque 5.4 4.7 4.5 (corr.) 7.7 6.7 6.5
Spanish 3.0 1.5 <1.0 Portugu 2.2 <1.0 <1.0 French 2.2 <1.0
<1.0 Danish 2.0 <1.0 <1.0 Cornish 4.4 <1.0 <1.0 English,
Austrian, German, Rest of world the same
<1. <1.0 <1.0

hap 2 is derived from sardinian (the most common allele in
sardinian is specific to sardinians and itself derived
from africa)

In addition there is a 4th Haplotype. Basque 3.7 (corr) 5.3
Cornish 3.6 (about or more mixed with British as Basque with
non-Basque) Spanish 1.6 British <1.0

None of these major Basque or shared haplotypes of
non-scandinavian origins are derived from Uralic or Mongolian
Peoples. Nor are the mongolian or Uralic haplotypes found in
basque or vice versa.

In addition these haplotype analysis indicate that the Basque,
Cornish and other groups were once connected peoples within a
wider european population that has been largely displaced. The
haplotype analysis does not indicate recent ancestry (within
last 15,000 years) to Indoeuropean enriched groups, but does
indicate that these groups once occupied a major portion of
western europe and especially Iberia. If Iberia was the
'safehouse' in the last ice age, then I suggest that the
Basque were probably responsible for resettlement of europe
after the 'thaw'. So to all these PA looking for connections
between Neandertals and Europeans. I offer up the basque as
the descendants of ICE-AGE western europe, the last bastion of
the Neandertals, the last people who saw Neandertal Alive, the
people who cohabitated with LV child. Are these your
Neandertals?



Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Pete]

on Wed, 08 May 2002 18:34:00 -0500, Philip Deitiker
<pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> sez: ` There has been alot of commentary
about the origin ` of the Basque. ` [...] ` ` In addition
these haplotype analysis indicate that ` the Basque, Cornish
and other groups were once ` connected peoples within a wider
european ` population that has been largely displaced. The `
haplotype analysis does not indicate recent ` ancestry (within
last 15,000 years) to ` Indoeuropean enriched groups, but does
indicate ` that these groups once occupied a major portion of
` western europe and especially Iberia. ` If Iberia was the
'safehouse' in the last ice ` age, then I suggest that the
Basque were probably ` responsible for resettlement of europe
after the ` 'thaw'. So to all these PA looking for connections
` between Neandertals and Europeans. I offer up the ` basque
as the descendants of ICE-AGE western ` europe, the last
bastion of the Neandertals, the ` last people who saw
Neandertal Alive, the people ` who cohabitated with LV child.
Are these your ` Neandertals?

Forty years ago, school kids were taught that the aboriginal
european population subsequently displaced by the Celts were
a short, dark haired people called the "Iberians", as the
last recorded evidence of them (presumably from classical
era writings) was as inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula,
as well as western britain. They spoke a language which
predated gaelic (ie not celtic indo-european), which was
lost in britain. Sounds like this group corresponds to your
molecular analysis.

--
==========================================================================

vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

[Leif]

Philip,

this is an utterly stupid way to discuss Neanderthals in
Europe. Why would any of the populations in Europe be isolated
islands for 40ky? There is certainly no physical barrier that
could explain this. Our Neanderthal heritage is basically part
of ALL OF US to some extent. It's behavoirs that are
concentrated to psychiatric diagnosis, and due to their nature
as "species determinants", stay together. Those are not
concentrated to ethnical groups either, and are found in all
groups AT VARYING EXTENTS.

Leif

[Mb]

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote:

> There has been alot of commentary about the origin of
> the Basque.
>
> In my never ending desire to trump my fellow scientist and
> come to a conclusion before some other dude presents his
> stuff in some Journal.
>

That´s great =:-O

Do you believe that presenting something in a ng is equal to
copy right or primary submission to a journal?

> ...If you scrape common N.european and Celtic allele
> frequencies off of the basque you find that the Basque are a
> relatively isolated group in europe, but when you further
> correct for those influences you find Basque specific
> alleles at high frequencies in welch, cornish, french and
> spanish.
>

This has been pointed out by several analyses. One of the
extensivest is this one:

Zoë H. Rosser et al. Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is
Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by
Language Am. J. Hum. Genet. (2000) 67, 1526-1543

So what are the news?

Michael

[Richard Wa]

leif wrote:

> Philip,
>
> this is an utterly stupid way to discuss Neanderthals in
> Europe. Why would any of the populations in Europe be
> isolated islands for 40ky? There is certainly no physical
> barrier that could explain this.

While it is true that the Scandinavian and Alpine ice sheets
never coalesced the corridor between them could well have
been uninhabitable thus sealing off N populations into
Italy, Iberia and southwest France. The Caspian sea also
expanded southward providing a significant water barrier. In
short in the

higher latitudes it would have been all too easy for
populations to be cut off

and hemmed in. And previous to the Ns the occupation of Europe
may have been restricted to warm climate periods. If the gene
flow concept of the MREH requires continuous contact between
all populations more or less all the time it is in a bit of
trouble. The Sahara also plays a role. In good times it

was savannah and , in all likelihood, had significant hominid
populations. Then when conditions collapsed to their present
state these populations would be expelled in all directions
and effectively sealed off from each other. In short there are
*Lots* of reasons to think that hominids that don't have the
technological foundation of modern humans - Inuit, Bedouins
etc etc - could not inhabit the same range of biotopes as
modern humans which would lead to, at times, highly
discontinuous distribution of populations.

Rick Wagler

[Philip Dei]

On Fri, 10 May 2002 21:08:11 +0200,
musta@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de (mb) wrote:

>Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote:
>
>> There has been alot of commentary about the origin of the
>> Basque.
>>
>> In my never ending desire to trump my fellow scientist and
>> come to a conclusion before some other dude presents his
>> stuff in some Journal.

>That´s great =:-O

I knew I could count on you, BTW did you get that hairdo from
Bob "8^)" Keeter, he seems to have a sale on the smiley faces.

>Do you believe that presenting something in a ng is equal to
>copy right or primary submission to a journal?

The problem is that I have to be careful about what I put here
because we have a rule that we cannot present publishable
material prior to publication, ahem someone things you guys
might steal it. hah-ha right. I am being very careful what I
present, so parts of the picture will be left out.

>> ...If you scrape common N.european and Celtic allele
>> frequencies off of the basque you find that the Basque are
>> a relatively isolated group in europe, but when you further
>> correct for those influences you find Basque specific
>> alleles at high frequencies in welch, cornish, french and
>> spanish.
>>
>
>This has been pointed out by several analyses. One of the
>extensivest is this one:

Y chromosome is one of the slowest evolving and is not very
reliable for typing things that are new.

OK so mikey I know how you like to quibble in the details.
You'll enjoy this.

The super B8 Haplotype is

A1-Cw7-B8-DRB1_0301-DRB3_0101-DQA0501-DQ0201-DPA0101-DPB0401

For short we can say A1-C7-B8-DR3-DRB3_01-DQA5-DQ2-DPA1-DPB4

Sort of obvious for the haplotype data were alleles came from
and went to. But when we came to Cornish the haplotype
frequency for B8 was curiously higher than expected. So I was
kind of curious and began tracing the haplotype back. The
closest link outside of africa, as it turns out is once again
the Basque and Sardinians. The Sardinian Haplotype is
A2-C7-B18-DR3-DRB3_01-DQA5-DQ2-DPA1-DPB4

Where the haplotype:

However A1 can crossed in the B8 hapotype has to undergo gene
conversion from the B7, which means the A1 Cw7-B7 has to be
crossed in. This haplotype in niether found in the sardinians
or the Basque, but the remainder of the haplotype is not
present in great degree in the rest of the world (except at
low levels in korea, northern mongolia and manchu regions,
heavily recombined) and B8 is not present in sardinia,
although it has back migrated into the basque. So if we scan
the database for a source of A1 Cw7-B7 we find it in the
austrians (no data on switzerland).There are other ways to
recombine the allele but all the templates tend to come from
east of germany. The haplotpye frequency of A1 Cw7 B7 in
germany, france and italy is low. Even though you cannot see
this haplotype in the Cornish, there are other haplotypes
present suggest some ancestors of the cornish must have
possessed the type. Which then leads to the conclusion that
the cornish (removing common british haplotypes] are a
combination of both SW european and Alpine alleles. But
sweden, the previously described 'source' of SuperB8 does not
have all the templates required. And austria has a lower than
expected abundance of the superB8 as a point of origin. The
cornish and the austrians share a rather unusual allele in
europe, A1 cw6 B57 haplotype (about 2.5%). So what does this
have to do with the price of tea in china. Based on the allele
frequencies of the Basque in Cornwall, the SuperB8 Haplotype
so commonly attributed to the swedes and slovs(almost by
definition now) Is about 50% higher in abundance, in fact its
abundance is more like that of the point of origin than a
point of dilution. In addition one should argue based on the
Basque alleles and recombination that Cornish should have at
least 1 haplotype the forms a nodal center in cornwall. When
one forces the argument the answer is the B8 Haplotype.

So what is the abundance of this haplotype elsewhere. Its
abundance drops precipitously once one moves out of areas
the Vikings had once traveled through. It is abundant in
europe, but less so in iberia, and not at all in greece,
anatolia. Early derivatives of the B8 haplotype can be found
amoungst the Manchu, Mongols (not inner) and Koreans (but
not Japanese to any degree). Stronger ties are seen in the
Uygars of western china, but this is not surprising since
they have found brownish-redhaired mummifications. Thus I
think the connection between the Cornish and the
Scandanavians is more recent. In addition the connection
seems to be direct, the alleles typical of the templates and
the haplotype is lower than expected amoungst the danes and
germans, therefore one could argue that scandanavia may have
been settled directly by the people of central england and
then possibly mixed with peoples from eastern asia.

The B18 haplotype as well as the B44 haplotype likewise have
some low frequency of occurance within the northern mongolian,
manchu korean region, with about the same drop off as one
moves south and east ward. This suggests that some back mixing
occurred between the later Basque alleles before these alleles
traveled eastward. But even more interesting, if you did not
catch the jest of the previous post is that the drop off in
allele frequencies is unlike that seen in mtDNA where Japan
often has more evidence of west eurasian alleles relative to
mongols and koreans. This suggest either large multifaceted
groups or several waves of west eurasians traveling eastward.

I know how you like me to stick my neck out so you can take
a whack at it but certain inconsistancies in the single
easterly wave theories in mtDNA bothered me, So I would like
to propose a model that several waves of migration from
western eurasia, specifically originating in sardonia or
iberia traveling inland either via iberia or italy and then
moving eastward on occasion. The Quasi B8 movement I suspect
was recent, within the last 6000 years. Other waves may have
occurred so early that a unique haplotype coming in would be
so recombined you would not be able to detect it unless it
was the result of a novel allele generated in the west.

So this is much more than identifying the source of preIE
europeans. By anchoring 'nodes' within the westeurasian
populations it might be possible to tell which specific asian
waves came, approximately, from where. I am not trying to say
that asians came from europe. At most I see 15% of asian
makeup from the transcontinental route. It is none-the-less
interesting.

Secondariuly the more haplotypes I look at the more links I
see back to the Basque, with lessor links specifically to the
portuguese and Italians. Which strongly suggest that this
group is the remnant phenotypic patterns of western eurasia.
This is indifference to many anthropologist who bring forth IE
morphology as exemplary. At best the basque are protoIE
morphology. In addition they mention this morphology in the
context of cranial facial similarities between Ns and humans.
But the basque have few specific craniofacial similarities.
Finally the genetic links of the basque and sardonians in
africa is somewhat inegmatic in the sense that they appear to
have transited through an undetected or lost population in
africa. Some of the haplotype has the highest frequency with
the Khoi, and infrequently with N. Africans.

Thirdly I am not so sure that the earlyIE are even of basque
derivativation. The reason I say this is their allelic makeup
is very tight, and if IE were also of basque their leaving
isolation and returning would produce haplotypes as tight as
the basque. They do not and there are no basque typical
haplotypes found of IE peoples who traveled south (greece) or
east (persia or indus valley). Whereas the sardonian
population appears to be alot older than the basque. Sardonian
specific haplotypes (not found in basque) appear in india. The
mt DNA studies allign with this, they suggest some alleles
traveled through northern spain into western eurasia. However
some alleles that can be linked with Niger/Nigerian population
and those in iberia do not show direct connectors except,
occasionally sardinia. So I am going to make another
prediction.

Either the protosardinians settled in N. africa and some move
westward as far as india (and via basque, the far east and
possibly new world) and others either traversed directly into
iberia (later) or into sardinia (early) and then into
southwestern europe (later). The question that then comes up
is a question of argument. Because the settlement of eurasia
is a statistical argument based on the derivation of alleles.
So the argument then hinges on the treatment of sardinaia as
a part of eurasia or africa. Similarly other islands like
corsica, malta and cicily may have been stopping points, for
which we have little demographic imformation. So one
potential error in the dating is treating the eurasian entry
as a singular event, or events that transited intermediate
islands and movement that might have been initially linked,
but eventually unlinked as people moved directly onto the
continent.



Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Paul Crowl]

"leif" <leif@rdos.net> wrote in message
news:6WrC8.6197$p56.1538910@newsb.telia.net...

> Philip,
>
> this is an utterly stupid way to discuss Neanderthals in
> Europe. Why would any of the populations in Europe be
> isolated islands for 40ky?

There are two populations of humans in a region adjacent to
the eastern edge of the Mediterranean which are quite
indistinguishable in any physical manner or using any
biological measure. Yet they don't interbreed at all. Jared
Diamond makes the point that many populations of modern Hss in
Papua N.G. isolated themselves so effectively that they
developed quite distinct genetic diseases.

So why couldn't Neanderthals have behaved in much the same
way?

> There is certainly no physical barrier that could
> explain this.

There are no physical barriers in Israel, nor in Papua N.G.

Paul.

[Leif]

Richard:
> While it is true that the Scandinavian and Alpine ice
> sheets never
coalesced
> the corridor between them could well have been uninhabitable
> thus sealing off N populations into Italy, Iberia and
> southwest France. The Caspian sea also expanded southward
> providing a significant water barrier. In short in
the
>
> higher latitudes it would have been all too easy for
> populations to be cut
off
>
> and hemmed in. And previous to the Ns the occupation of
> Europe may have been restricted to warm climate periods. If
> the gene flow concept of the
MREH
> requires continuous contact between all populations more or
> less all the time it is in a bit of trouble. The Sahara also
> plays a role. In good
times it
>
> was savannah and , in all likelihood, had significant
> hominid populations. Then when conditions collapsed to their
> present state these populations would
be
> expelled in all directions and effectively sealed off
> from each other. In short there are *Lots* of reasons to
> think that hominids that don't have the technological
> foundation of modern humans - Inuit, Bedouins etc etc -
> could not inhabit
the
> same range of biotopes as modern humans which would lead to,
> at times,
highly
> discontinuous distribution of populations.

Of course there could be traces of old populations in Europe,
and Basque might be one. The problem is that even though some
populations might have more Neanderthal heritage than others,
all will still be very mixed-up with 40ky of at least some
breeding between populations. There has been 18ky without ice
in most of Europe, giving ample of time for mixing.

What I object to is the method of trying to find Neanderthal
heritage in this way or refute it.

I don't really subscribe to MREH. I think weak OoA is the
right description of what happened.

Leif

[Pete]

Philip Deitiker wrote:

> slovs

You misspelled "Slavs" "Slave" is etymologically derived from
"Slav" That's what the Slavs were to the Vikings, in that age.

--
pete

[Leif]

Paul Crowley:
> There are two populations of humans in a region adjacent to
> the eastern edge of the Mediterranean which are quite
> indistinguishable in any physical manner or using any
> biological measure. Yet they don't interbreed at all. Jared
> Diamond makes the point that many populations of modern Hss
> in Papua N.G. isolated themselves so effectively that they
> developed quite distinct genetic diseases.

You must be yoking. I don't think there ever was any
populations that where totally isolated from other groups.
This is as much against human nature as you can get.

The issue of morph & genetic diseases doesn't tell us there is
total isolation. If you knew anything about interbreeding, you
would know that if a hybrid backcrosses into a population, his
descendants morph will become indistunguishable from that
population in the 3rd generation. This has been shown in
various primate species.

Leif

[Philip Dei]

On Thu, 09 May 2002 17:01:44 GMT, "leif" <leif@rdos.net>
wrote:

>Of course there could be traces of old populations in Europe,
>and Basque might be one. The problem is that even though some
>populations might have more Neanderthal heritage than others,
>all will still be very mixed-up with 40ky of at least some
>breeding between populations. There has been 18ky without ice
>in most of Europe, giving ample of time for mixing.

I have taken the liberty to parse the eastern derivative
alleles from the western derivative alleles which means The
allelic makeup of the basque is comparable to what one
might expect
>3000 ybp. The last neandertal artifacts are found
in Germany and Croatia meaning they existed in the proximity
up to 28, kya, probably later. Which means the temporal
differential is only about 25,000 years. So in essence we need
to see a reason why Neandertal would go from Classic to
essentially the Basque morphology in that time. In addition
>30% of Basque morphology has been recently influenced by the
eastern sources, including cletic and scandinavian. So one
also may need to extrapolate these backwards.

I can give you one example why I can suggest that a majority
of the Basque came from sardinia.

1. WIthin 3000 years one expects a 5 gene haplotype to dwindle
in the population as a result of recombination, therefore
this 5 gene allele was once an extremely dominant allele in
that population like its ancestor is in sardinian, but less
diluted by invasions relative to the sardinians. But the
second gene in the haplotype has been 'blanked', and it is
difficult to go from loss of function back to function,
whereas it is easy to go from function to loss of function.
Since the functional haplotype is rare in Basque, I would
suggest a small subset of sardinians settled in iberia and
then that population expanded (alternatively they might
have settled elsewhere and a subset migrated to iberia).
The overriding conclusion one has to draw is that the
basque have more recently migrated from sardinia than the
conclusion that they have been occupants of other places
and migrated in. In addition, it looks as if they have
repopulated western europe after the last ice age. IOW the
cornish and danish populations have components that appear
to have moved in from the south as opposed to have moved in
from the east.

BTW, I have even better evidence than this, however it in the
very exhaustive database I have uncovered but it will take
more time to flesh it out.

>What I object to is the method of trying to find Neanderthal
>heritage in this way or refute it.

No, what you object to is the fact that those cave paintings
that everyone thinks were the result of blond/blue eyed
scandinavian forms are the probable result of the Basque.
Short, curly, black haired people with dark skin and dark
eyes that are not all that different from the people from NW
africa and the southwestern mediterranian region. That's what
bothers you.

>I don't really subscribe to MREH. I think weak OoA is the
>right description of what happened.

What's this, are we doing a Wolpoffian Back Paddle here. And
if I told you that caucasians as you know them spent their
time during the last ice ages 1000s of miles away from
Neandertals, that would also not bother you? heh-heh.

I would point to a tiny, itty bity flaw in your statement at
the top of the post. The base assumption that ProtoBasque and
ProtoIE were or were not separated by some barrier presumes
that you know all the component groups of europeans. It is
possible that a third group bridged the distance between them,
but was later consumed between the expansion of IE groups and
the remnant of the Basque. One reason on can make such claims
is that even historical the Middle easterners seem to have had
the closest relationship to IE in the South whereas the Uralic
peoples (namely sami) appear to have the greatest similarity
in the north. Therefore the IE core population may have once
lived 1000 miles from the alps with other groups living
between them and the basque. Since we don't know with
certainty where the protoIE lived before the last ice age
(although we see aged information as far east as western
china), one cannot argue whether it was terraine and climate
or simply distance that separated the 2 groups.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Philip Dei]

On Fri, 10 May 2002 21:48:57 -0400, pete
<pfiland@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Philip Deitiker wrote:
>
>> slovs
>
>You misspelled "Slavs" "Slave" is etymologically derived
>from "Slav" That's what the Slavs were to the Vikings, in
>that age.

I will relay that back to the author of the paper that
haplotyped the slovic.

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Paul Crowl]

"leif" <leif@rdos.net> wrote in message
news:CSoD8.37420$n4.8156749@newsc.telia.net...

> Paul Crowley:
> > There are two populations of humans in a region adjacent
> > to the eastern edge of the Mediterranean which are quite
> > indistinguishable in any physical manner or using any
> > biological measure. Yet they don't interbreed at all.
> > Jared Diamond makes the point that many populations of
> > modern Hss in Papua N.G. isolated themselves so
> > effectively that they developed quite distinct genetic
> > diseases.
>
> You must be yoking. I don't think there ever was any
> populations that where totally isolated from other groups.

Jared Diamond's "Third Chimpanzee". Page 207 about Papua
New Guinea:

>"While most pre-contact peoples had trade relations with
>their neighbors, many thought that they were the only humans
>in existence . . . . to venture outside of one's territory to
>meet [other] humans, even if they lived only a few miles
>away, was equivalent to suicide . . . Such isolation bred
>great genetic diversity. Each valley in New Guinea has not
>only its own language and culture, but also its own genetic
>abnormalities and local diseases."

The 'breeding boundaries' between groups of Paleo Hss (and
between groups of Hsn) would have been at least as strong.
Those between Hss and Hsn were probably a good bit stronger.

> This is as much against human nature as you can get.

Your conception of 'human nature' is the problem.

Where do you live? If you had experienced a strongly racially
divided society -- such as exist in many (most?) countries
where (for example) the Chinese only marry Chinese, those of
Indian descent only marry others of Indian descent, and those
of African descent only marry those of African descent, and
where within each racial group, everyone only marries within
their particular social strata -- then your concept of 'human
nature' might be different.

Paul.

[Gordo]

"leif" <leif@rdos.net> wrote in message
news:CSoD8.37420$n4.8156749@newsc.telia.net...
> Paul Crowley:
> > There are two populations of humans in a region adjacent
> > to the eastern edge of the Mediterranean which are quite
> > indistinguishable in any physical manner or using any
> > biological measure. Yet they don't interbreed at all.
> > Jared Diamond makes the point that many populations of
> > modern Hss in Papua N.G. isolated themselves so
> > effectively that they developed quite distinct genetic
> > diseases.
>
> You must be yoking. I don't think there ever was any
> populations that where totally isolated from other groups.
> This is as much against human nature as you can get.

Not quite leif. Tribal interaction is keyed to the aggressive
mode even today. You can see those territorial behaviours
displayed in the sequence of this thread. Human tribal nature
is isolationist that is why they are tribes.

The classic case of this social aversion was the extinction of
the Beothuks of Newfoundland Canada. It is supposed that these
peoples were once the remnants of the great Maritime Archaic
nation. Even when faced with starvation they failed to seek
help which was available to them.

In today's society Amish and certain like sects are
definitively isolationist. Japanese are largely xenophobic to
the nth degree.

I have led groups in the wilderness, on hiking or camping,
the first tendency of almost all people enroute when a
confrontation is to seek to hide and grab something for a
weapon. The very first thing I do is check that tendency then
to take a mental roll call in case some one succumbed to that
emotion. Groups always tighten up. It is so neat to feel that
change. Also there is a very high level of anxiety within
both groups. The key is that the first instinct which calls
is too hide.

Searches are conducted by search and rescue teams in this
desolate wilderness that I live close too. About fifty percent
of the time the people lost are found by accident, and they
were hiding. Search methods have changed to reduce that
tendency but it points to individual emotions that can effect
a whole group.

It is all based upon fear too. I am quite sure an afternoons
read of anything by Wade Davis can throw more light on this
than I can.

>
> The issue of morph & genetic diseases doesn't tell us there
> is total isolation. If you knew anything about
> interbreeding, you would know that if a hybrid backcrosses
> into a population, his descendants morph will become
> indistunguishable from that population in the 3rd
> generation. This has been shown in various primate species.
>
> Leif
>
>
>

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[Leif]

Philip:
> So in essence we need to see a reason why Neandertal would
> go from Classic to essentially the Basque morphology in
> that time.

I certainly don't have any idea why they would. I don't
subscribe to the idea that Neanderthals on their own changed
to Basque. Basque might instead be the remaint of an isolated
population of Neanderthal x AMH hybrids.

> I can give you one example why I can suggest that a
> majority of the Basque came from sardinia.

That's perfectly reasonable.

> In addition, it looks as if they have repopulated western
> europe after the last ice age. IOW the cornish and danish
> populations have components that appear to have moved in
> from the south as opposed to have moved in from the east.

That also seems perfectly reasonable

> BTW, I have even better evidence than this, however it in
> the very exhaustive database I have uncovered but it will
> take more time to flesh it out.

Could you give a hint on it's location?

> No, what you object to is the fact that those cave paintings
> that everyone thinks were the result of blond/blue eyed
> scandinavian forms are the probable result of the Basque.

Perfectly reasonable too.

> Short, curly, black haired people with dark skin and dark
> eyes that are not all that different from the people from NW
> africa and the southwestern mediterranian region. That's
> what bothers you.

No, that doesn't bother me either. No doubt most people at
that time where black. The introduced alleles for light skin
took some time to spread to the entire population. They were
not that much of an advantage after all.

> >I don't really subscribe to MREH. I think weak OoA is
> >the right
description
> >of what happened.
>
> What's this, are we doing a Wolpoffian Back Paddle here. And
> if I told you that caucasians as you know them spent their
> time during the last ice ages 1000s of miles away from
> Neandertals, that would also not bother you? heh-heh.

Not really. If you've read my theory, you would know that
hybridization started in Middle East. Unless you propose they
originated in Senegal or something, I wouldn't object.

> I would point to a tiny, itty bity flaw in your statement at
> the top of the post. The base assumption that ProtoBasque
> and ProtoIE were or were not separated by some barrier
> presumes that you know all the component groups of
> europeans. It is possible that a third group bridged the
> distance between them, but was later consumed between the
> expansion of IE groups and the remnant of the Basque.

I don't have any objections to that either. I leave the later
history to others. I'm not really very interested in more
recent migrations. The base of my theory is small amounts of
interbreeding, which is primarily seen in auto-immune
disorders, cold-adaptions and psychiatric "disorders".

Leif

[Leif]

Paul:
> Where do you live? If you had experienced a strongly
> racially divided society -- such as exist in many (most?)
> countries where (for example) the Chinese only marry
> Chinese, those of Indian descent only marry others of Indian
> descent, and those of African descent only marry those of
> African descent, and where within each racial group,
> everyone only marries within their particular social strata
> -- then your concept of 'human nature' might be different.

Go get a look at black in the US, or indians. Are they pure? I
hardly think so. To find a pure indian or black is much less
likely than to find somebody of mixed origin.

Leif

[Philip Dei]

On Wed, 15 May 2002 23:59:39 -0400, "Gordo"
<gordsracing@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>In today's society Amish and certain like sects are
>definitively isolationist. Japanese are largely xenophobic to
>the nth degree.

Japanese are not genetically isolated, they are one of the
most intermixed groups of people in asia. Secondarily Japanese
were forced into isolation by the subversive forces of the
continent, such as continentalism in the 4th to 7th centuries
AD and as a result of attempted Catholicism in the 16-17th
century. Japanese have population markers from every part of
the exoafrican world (either as derivatives or are as
ancestors) and there are a couple of mtDNA markers that
suggest a more or less direct connection with african. Japan
of the 1st A.D. would have been akin in diversity to the U.S.
during the 1800s, excepting slavery and including native
americans. So in some aspect looking at Japan you may be
seeing americas future, lol. I would argue that Japan in the
5th to 7th Century did a wonderful job on inclusion of
different ethnic groups. You can see this in Japan today, you
can have a chinese buddist temple, a korean/japanese style
buddist temple down the road. A shinto shrine to properity, in
the town a christian church, etc. The non-western temples and
shrines, in many instances are 100s to 1000s of years old. So
this is not a result of western influences. But one thing that
is apparenty amoungst Japanese is the will to be unified. An
example is in Hirado. Legend has it that the catholics in
Japan were slaughtered. This was not the whole story, many
Japanese Christians retreated to the island of Hirado, which
was defendable and had the protection of a warlord. Once the
Japanese realized that the hiradoins were not a threat they
settled peacefully and allowed the catholics to remain as the
dominant political force on that island. So when I went to
Hirado I expected to see a 'different' culture of people. Well
there is a small 15th century church, true to form in
emaculate condition, as if it were built yesterday. But that
was the only thing about Hirado that was out of place, the
rest of the island was so Japanese. The market was like any
market, the houses like any other japanese houses, etc. By
moving these catholics to hirado they essentially innoculated
themselves against a disruptive influence in Japan. It was not
specifically catholicism that Japanese society hates, but its
desire to dominate all other beliefs. In this respect it
mirrors what happened in the 6th and 7th centuries, when the
Soga clan became an agent of continental buddhism, the
shintoist and other minor Uji of Japane felt threatened, more
or less the buddist would not have been sad to see the other
'tribal' religions perish since the competed for devotion and
tributes. However in the 7th Century the emperor all but
promoted Buddhism to state religion, but essentially put a
stop to the continental connections and secured a place for
both beliefs. In doing this the newly empowered emperial
government reversed many of the laws created by the Soga clan
and created new laws of its own. This allowed buddhism in
Japan to evolve into a japanese form, with a number of
japanese sects appearing, some with shinto elements to them.
From the 5th century to the 20th century, Japan in essence was
never invaded, several attempts failed, most notable the
attempt by the mongols, which devistated the naval forces.
With a large population on a very small set of lands, I would
argue that Japanese strategy for internal unification,
externally defensive posture has been one of the most
effective governing strategies in the world up to date. THere
have been lapses at times, alot of bloody infighting, but the
bottom line is that all groups that have come into Japan, the
chinese, the korean, preYayoi elements have survived and
flourished in most capacities.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:

Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author: Tim
Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve Abortion
Aquatic aquatic

[Paul Crowl]

"leif" <leif@rdos.net> wrote in message
news:qCwD8.37482$n4.8173485@newsc.telia.net...
> Paul:
> > Where do you live? If you had experienced a strongly
> > racially divided society -- such as exist in many (most?)
> > countries where (for example) the Chinese only marry
> > Chinese, those of Indian descent only marry others of
> > Indian descent, and those of African descent only marry
> > those of African descent, and where within each racial
> > group, everyone only marries within their particular
> > social strata -- then your concept of 'human nature' might
> > be different.
>
> Go get a look at black in the US, or indians. Are they pure?
> I hardly think so. To find a pure indian or black is much
> less likely than to find somebody of mixed origin.

And how do you think that arose? Some happy 'natural' Arcadian
society where everyone married at random, not caring (nor
perhaps even noticing) the ethnic origin of their spouses?

You have allowed your ideology to wipe out whatever capacity
you ever had to observe facts.

They are the product of slavery (or something similar) where
the males of one race were able to sexually exploit the
females of others. (Has anyone done an mtDNA study? Or is it
too politically sensitive? Mixed-race Americans will have
hardly any European female mtDNA.)

Such societies don't exist in Papua N.G. nor in Israel (to
follow my earlier examples); nor would anything like them have
existed in palaeolithic times.

Paul.

[Bob Keeter]

in article u1l7eug4uilqeqi76jk7i0d6dfabe17s2t@4ax.com, Philip
Deitiker at pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu wrote on 5/16/02 11:14 AM:

> On Wed, 15 May 2002 23:59:39 -0400, "Gordo"
> <gordsracing@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> In today's society Amish and certain like sects are
>> definitively isolationist. Japanese are largely xenophobic
>> to the nth degree.
>
> Japanese are not genetically isolated, they are one of the
> most intermixed groups of people in asia.

Snippage. . . . . .. . . .

Philip, my man! Did some checking and woe-is-me, the citation
I offered you is oncorrect. That period you were talking about
that I THOUGHT had started about 700 AD actually is pegged to
some royal successions or some such and actually ENDED in 710
AD. Mea culpa, Mea Maximum culpa!

I WAS WRONG! . . . . . Geezopete, guess what! Those three
little words are not a suicidal death curse! You ought to try
them sometime, it takes a great deal of pressure off when you
dont have to be PERFECT!

Very refreshing.

>
> Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth
>
> For those folks that have Agent here is my filter file:
>
> Author: Algis Kuliukas Author: Bob Keeter Author: Jabriol
> Author: jabriol Author: James Michael Howard Author: Jim
> McGinn Author: marc verhaegen Author: Paul Crowley Author:
> Tim Tyler Author: Watch Tower AAT Creation CreationEvolve
> Abortion Aquatic aquatic

Then you remind me of how deeply I do appreciate your astute
attention!

Due regards bk

--
In all of the right places,
. . . . . my name is Mudd!

[RubeLloyd]

Lief, I am afraid you are wrong my friend. A recent dna study,
showed that the people of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and the
Basque, are more related to each other as a group than to any
other people in europe!

Get a copy of Caesars Commentaries on the Gallic
Wars..especially as translated by Davis and read it. On the
pages on the left side of the book is the latin and on the
right is the translations. When it got to the part where
Caesar described the people Britain...Mr Davis skipped over
the description entirely, however, it is easy two translate
the description yourself. Caesar describes the inhabitants
like this: "The people of the shore, are as the people of the
mainland, and have only been here less than 200 years. But,
the people of the interior, are of Coperan in colour". I make
"Coperan" to be a dark reddish brown..how do you see it?

The only reason that Mr Davis did not translate this..that I
can think of is that Mr Davis is Welsh...and did not like
the idea that his ancestors were described as being of
Coperan in colour:-)

Rube

[Gordo]

<RubeLloyd@webtv.net> wrote in message news:12904-3CDA9338-13-
1@storefull-2311.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Lief, I am afraid you are wrong my friend. A recent dna
> study, showed that the people of Scotland, Ireland, Wales
> and the Basque, are more related to each other as a group
> than to any other people in europe!
>
> Get a copy of Caesars Commentaries on the Gallic
> Wars..especially as translated by Davis and read it. On
> the pages on the left side of the book is the latin and on
> the right is the translations. When it got to the part
> where Caesar described the people Britain...Mr Davis
> skipped over the description entirely, however, it is easy
> two translate the description yourself. Caesar describes
> the inhabitants like this: "The people of the shore, are
> as the people of the mainland, and have only been here
> less than 200 years. But, the people of the interior, are
> of Coperan in colour". I make "Coperan" to be a dark
> reddish brown..how do you see it?
>
> The only reason that Mr Davis did not translate this..that I
> can think of is that Mr Davis is Welsh...and did not like
> the idea that his ancestors were described as being of
> Coperan in colour:-)
>
> Rube
>

I found Livy's The War with Hannibal, an interesting text when
it came to providing material for you. Hannibal Barca's main
thrust into Italy came out of the Iberian Peninsula. Is order
of battle, is exotic and eclectic to say the least.

As well Sertorus like wise came out of the Iberian Peninsula.
His cohorts were principally Iberian. He held them loyal by
the magic of a white fawn. The Iberian Peninsula was a rich
collage of tribal humanity.

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[Bob Keeter]

in article ceLE8.34$y31.32243@newsfeed.slurp.net, Gordo at
gordsracing@yahoo.ca wrote on 5/15/02 10:33 PM:

>
> I found Livy's The War with Hannibal, an interesting text
> when it came to providing material for you. Hannibal Barca's
> main thrust into Italy came out of the Iberian Peninsula. Is
> order of battle, is exotic and eclectic to say the least.
>
> As well Sertorus like wise came out of the Iberian
> Peninsula. His cohorts were principally Iberian. He held
> them loyal by the magic of a white fawn. The Iberian
> Peninsula was a rich collage of tribal humanity.
>
>

Well, at the start of Hanibal's little incursion into Italy,
the Iberian peninsula was to a great degree almost a colony of
Carthage, actually i THINK the relationship was closer to the
Algerian relationship with France prior to gaining
independence. IOW, essentially a "department" of Carthage.

Even then, I would suggest that the biggest "importer" of
Iberian genes into the Italian gerome was the Romans
themselves. A great lot of Spaniards played roles in roman
society ranging from slave to philosophers like Seneca to
soldiers and Caesars like Trajan and Hadrian. Even though it
might be inconvenient for some theories about regional
genetics, got a feeling that the cosmopolitan nature of the
Roman Empire stirred up the old gerone pretty good.

Regards bk

[Gordo]

"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B90AFBCE.DB0B%rkeeter@earthlink.net...
> in article ceLE8.34$y31.32243@newsfeed.slurp.net, Gordo at
> gordsracing@yahoo.ca wrote on 5/15/02 10:33 PM:
>
>
> >
> > I found Livy's The War with Hannibal, an interesting text
> > when it came
to
> > providing material for you. Hannibal Barca's main thrust
> > into Italy came
out
> > of the Iberian Peninsula. Is order of battle, is exotic
> > and eclectic to
say
> > the least.
> >
> > As well Sertorus like wise came out of the Iberian
> > Peninsula. His
cohorts
> > were principally Iberian. He held them loyal by the magic
> > of a white
fawn.
> > The Iberian Peninsula was a rich collage of tribal
> > humanity.
> >
> >
>
> Well, at the start of Hanibal's little incursion into Italy,
> the Iberian peninsula was to a great degree almost a colony
> of Carthage, actually i THINK the relationship was closer to
> the Algerian relationship with France prior to gaining
> independence. IOW, essentially a "department" of
Carthage.
>
Careful not to use the modern political systems applied to
periods of that time. So much of ancient culture relied on
familial relationships compared with now. Also Carthage itself
was the leader of a very loose Confederacy of allies. The city
state was still the pro forma political system then.

Romans were likely the first actual empire in that region to
apply some sort of "central" control. Hannibal was primarily a
Carthaginian agent belonging to a prominent family of
Carthage. Anyway the political - cultural development of man
can be studied in these conflicts.

> Even then, I would suggest that the biggest "importer" of
> Iberian genes
into
> the Italian gerome was the Romans themselves. A great lot of
> Spaniards played roles in roman society ranging from slave
> to philosophers like
Seneca
> to soldiers and Caesars like Trajan and Hadrian. Even though
> it might be inconvenient for some theories about regional
> genetics, got a feeling that the cosmopolitan nature of the
> Roman Empire stirred up the old gerone
pretty
> good.

Thats probably the understatement of the decamillenia bk. Both
Carthaginians and Romans moved people about quite liberally.
Also it shows that cultures that overcame natural indigenous
fears of outsiders tend to advance their culture, nation quite
markedly compared with others.

On the other hand, the topography of the Iberian peninsula is
quite rugged. It is quite possible for a fearful or
conservative group of people bent on self imposed isolation to
endure without much interaction with others. More powerful
groups might allow such isolated groups to exist with terms of
passive independence. Their lands not being "worth" the fight
for absolute control.

Every culture needs some trade. But I cannot think of a need
that the Basques would have of another culture since so much
of their culture today as it did then, revolves around being
herdsman. Basques could maintain themselves as independent as
a benign form of people as the hurricane of international
politics swirled around them.

This alone could be called xenophobia, but xenophobia
implies a deliberate fear and campaign of perceived racial
purity. I rather suspect that until the 1930s the Basques
region was a benign region comparable with the Ozarks, or
the Blue Ridge mountains in the US, or Canada's Northern
Ontario region. In that climate of interest or more
accurately a mutual disinterest a separate culture could and
did survive over millenia.

Another similar group that co-exists in similar manner are the
Lapp. Like the Basques they are a very self independent group,
with a herding culture. Like the Basques they are very self
reliant and teach their young to be so. It is noted that both
cultures are special and rather should be considered
indigenous while the swirl of empires whirled on their
periphery.

People of a single tribe do not interface with other groups
willingly unless that behaviour is either taught or sanctioned
by the elders or the leadership of that group.

>
> Regards bk
>

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