Philip Dei
Thu, Jul-18-02, 01:04
I probably should have responded to these post sooner, but
. . . . . .
With all the pontification that is going one here by people
who know everything about every paper ever published, there
are more mtDNA sequences in the Database than there are papers
that describe them.
The mtDNA patterns show a clear link between some mongols
(rare), koreans, japanese and certain Alpine groups in europe.
The issue is which group moved from which direction. These
sequences tend to tie into the Niger/Nigerian/Senegalese
sequences that most West eurasians tie into. So if I had to
make a real educated guess I say they originated west of the
Ural Mountains and not east.
On the Issue of the Ainu and Jomon, as per the discussion of
myself and Gisele we realized that there is not enough overlap
of Jomon with the 'commonly' sequenced region of HV1 to draw a
reasonable conclusion, she has been working toward
establishing a comprehesive database which comprises all the
asia/oceanian sequence and I think she is very close to
completing this task.
I, on the other hand, am pooped. Since the beginning of the
year I have been 'burning' the midnight oil on many nights to
add stuff to the site and I consider it complete (not
withstanding hundreds of spelling and grammatical errors) and
I will catch these later on. I would like to append the base
information on humans and later hominids with bone
information, and comparative morphology sometime this year.
Prior to January noone ever ask me to write up pages
concerning the migrations of peoples in NE asia and this came
after my site was published, so in all probability the study
of this database will come next winter. However, even though
I am part NA, i really have not too much desire to parse
every sequence of NA and NE asia inorder to define the
perfect migration scenarios, as described below I already
know the settlement of Japan, Korea, Eastern Siberia and N.
America was complex. This is obvious. What we are arguing
over is minutia within that overall complexity. My primary
interest is in the expansion within africa, since this founds
every other expansion. If NA were not mixed prior to
columbus, they are certainly mixed now, and mixed populations
are very difficult to study.
Let me tell you what I did do. I managed to get the database
to shave off alleles that had no derivatives and/or not many
representatives in the human population.
There are 2 basic waves, as Ingman reports; however in the
'western wave' mtDNA appears to travel from West africa into
europe as a bifork. One set of mtDNA seem to have grown rather
robustly from the start, and it represents the majority of
eurasians. Another smaller group seems to have undergone some
isolation and then appears to have expanded eastward with many
hits amoungst north asia peoples, Japanese, and north america.
Then this trend breaks and we see peoples from brazil and
argentina with the same alleles found in swiss alps. These
alleles seem to diminish as they go southward down the
japan/rkyukuian islands set with only one instance found
amoungst ryukiuans.
The remaining alleles are found arrive from the south and
there are multiple instances of these alleles amounst the
Ainu as Gisele has pointed out and also very plentiful in
the New World.
The culture of Japan sort of aligns with this and also
contradicts this. Japans archeology to 10 to 15,000 years
ago reflects the settlement from points south in asia. One
of the obvious cultural elements in that early culture were
the earthen keyhole mounds that were distributed from from
SE asia to china, korean and japan. The presense of these
mounds diminished somewhat from southern to northern Japan,
but the statistics on this are not convincing. The secondary
culture to the earthen keyhole culture was the shell and
shell tool culture that is evident in the ryukyu region to
taiwan and throughout much of the islandic region of the
western pacific. This culture indicates that people must
have had watercraft capable of travel up to 100 miles over
open ocean. Isuspect this shell culture was the first to
settle the americas and left little evidence because they
were primarly coastal dwellers.
Somewhere between 15,000 and 10,000 years ago the culture and
morphology of paleoJapanese undergoes a shift, the shift is
two part. The first part of the shift comes down from the
north, or is most notable in the north part of japan. The
simple stone tools of pre-'protojomonese' were replaced by
refined stone tools typical of western europe from 25 kya and
also clovis culture of <13kya. This culture penetrated
southward on both sides of the sea of Japan, and at times
might have made incursions farther south. After the arrival of
these peoples the culture of southern koreans and southern
japanese shifts. While the keyhole tombs remain along with the
shell tool culture, the Jomon (fishbone earthen wear pot)
culture arises. This culture appears to be associated with
some sort of agricultue. In more preserved pots are found a
lentil type bean similar types of lentils, have apparently
been found in alaska. These might have been transported to or
from the new world.
The reports of the Japanese are that the primatives to the
north were fairskinned and hairy, like the Ainu, the people in
the south would of the per Yayoi period would be easily
distinquishable from the continental invaders, though they do
not show an outstanding similarity with either Ainu or
Europeans. I suspect there was inbreeding because some of the
pictures of samurai show a few with very dense beards which
would be comparable. In understanding Japanese culture one has
to understand how intermixing is possible. The emperial
Japanese court, which is highly dominated by Koreans, though
highly outbred with other klans, claims to have come from the
Hiuga area where they claimed to have settled in 660
B.C. approximately 200 years before evidence for settlement of
Japan appears in Japanese archeology. Around the 4th
century they make a move upward to the Osaka/Nara region.
The power of the Yamato clan comes from the rapidity at
which they displaced primatives from the land in which
they settled. But in the great land rushes of the
Yayoi/Hakata period the number of Feudal Lords increased
and infigthing also increased and this made Japan
vulnerable to outside influences. The rapid succession of
Buddhism over preexisting Uji of Japan can be used as
evidence. Between the 4th to 6th century marked the
turning point in Japanese history that defines Japan as
it is today. Under the Emperor the 'fighting between'
shinto/quasishinto/buddist clans for control over royal
court was diminished by emperial rule. But Japanese
emperial rule only steps in when the people of the
islands were threatened, and in this case the threat was
from china in the form of support for feudal groups. As a
result the emperor acts more as a cultural symbol to
define what is tolerable and intolerable, IOW, creates a
code of behavior. From this point japanese stop
identifying themselves from where they came but as to
where they now live. By Japanese tradition one can see
the law of the land is to 'fit behavior in', the nail
sticks up hammer it down. This ethos is tolerant of
racial differences, but not tolerant of cultural
differences. Therefore it does appear that a certain
number of preexisting groups 'crossed' over from
primative tribes into the norm of japanese culture
without to much difficulty. This hybrid character of
Japanese may actually be inspired by the emperial court,
who may have adopted preYayoi religious symbols into its
religious beliefs.
Therefore many of the primative were probably absorbed into
japanese society and that is the reason we still see
multidirectional gene flow in Japan. But more to the issue.
The critical issue in this debate is the morphology and
makeup of Northern Japanese. I have seen skeleta of Northern
Jomon and while they are noticably dissimilar to the Yayoi
settlers, they lack some of the feature described in
kenniwick man. Likewise they lakc some features of the Ainu.
However these remains have generally come from coastal or
lowland regions and may have been admixture of southern
Jomonese who favored the wet-lowland regions extending
north, and between open range hunters whose tools and
encampments characterized the north. In addition, The Jomon
sequences are associated with a site, which I went and
looked up in the Japanese web sites (since my wife is from
Japan it helpes to interpret some of this) that the 3500 yo
site north of Tokyo is associated with a shell midden and
the males from the site had markedly different mtDNA from
the females, suggesting a matriarchal society, in which
women who settled lowlands might have taken mates who ranged
the highlands looking for game.
Therefore I see a basic problem in the mtDNA comparisons of
Japan. It is clear that west eurasians mtDNA seqeunces have
filtered into Japan and Korea from the north, and if we
could get samples of the peoples as soon as a given wave
arrives, we might have a good chance of positively
establishing genetic makeup. But both mtDNA and culture
show that japan has been settled by Chinese, Koreans,
Continental SE asians, West Pacific Islanders, and At least
one wave from the north, and (or overlapping) from mtDNA
some wave from western eurasia. Some of the complexities of
these migrations will be difficult to parse out of the
data. As with the Ainu, if they are counterparts with other
NA groups, then mtDNA representation might have resulted
from Wife Stealing of lowland dwellers, as a countermeasure
to the matriarchal societies that dwelled in the coastal
regions to the south. IOW there are mtDNA trends in the
data, like north/south cline of westeurasian verses SE
asian alleles frequencies but they do not exactly match up
to extant groups in the region. This is why I have not
posted more on this, and I hope that by next winter I will
have (with alot of help from Gisele) gotten enough sequence
info to do this. We are using the base region of
16124-16392 to allign the database, this represents the
fastest evolving region of HV1, if there is additional
genomic or extended coding region we may be able to alling
these Jomon sequences with something that is comparable to
the rest of the database. But I see this as a couple of
months, minimally of gut-wrenching work.
I am sure that all kind of folks here are going to find a
dissagreement with what I said. If your data is not some
spewing fascist statement of Indonesian or Sino-Korean
supremecy I might actually follow up, but for the most part I
have kill filed a number of you because of past fascist
activities here.
Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth
. . . . . .
With all the pontification that is going one here by people
who know everything about every paper ever published, there
are more mtDNA sequences in the Database than there are papers
that describe them.
The mtDNA patterns show a clear link between some mongols
(rare), koreans, japanese and certain Alpine groups in europe.
The issue is which group moved from which direction. These
sequences tend to tie into the Niger/Nigerian/Senegalese
sequences that most West eurasians tie into. So if I had to
make a real educated guess I say they originated west of the
Ural Mountains and not east.
On the Issue of the Ainu and Jomon, as per the discussion of
myself and Gisele we realized that there is not enough overlap
of Jomon with the 'commonly' sequenced region of HV1 to draw a
reasonable conclusion, she has been working toward
establishing a comprehesive database which comprises all the
asia/oceanian sequence and I think she is very close to
completing this task.
I, on the other hand, am pooped. Since the beginning of the
year I have been 'burning' the midnight oil on many nights to
add stuff to the site and I consider it complete (not
withstanding hundreds of spelling and grammatical errors) and
I will catch these later on. I would like to append the base
information on humans and later hominids with bone
information, and comparative morphology sometime this year.
Prior to January noone ever ask me to write up pages
concerning the migrations of peoples in NE asia and this came
after my site was published, so in all probability the study
of this database will come next winter. However, even though
I am part NA, i really have not too much desire to parse
every sequence of NA and NE asia inorder to define the
perfect migration scenarios, as described below I already
know the settlement of Japan, Korea, Eastern Siberia and N.
America was complex. This is obvious. What we are arguing
over is minutia within that overall complexity. My primary
interest is in the expansion within africa, since this founds
every other expansion. If NA were not mixed prior to
columbus, they are certainly mixed now, and mixed populations
are very difficult to study.
Let me tell you what I did do. I managed to get the database
to shave off alleles that had no derivatives and/or not many
representatives in the human population.
There are 2 basic waves, as Ingman reports; however in the
'western wave' mtDNA appears to travel from West africa into
europe as a bifork. One set of mtDNA seem to have grown rather
robustly from the start, and it represents the majority of
eurasians. Another smaller group seems to have undergone some
isolation and then appears to have expanded eastward with many
hits amoungst north asia peoples, Japanese, and north america.
Then this trend breaks and we see peoples from brazil and
argentina with the same alleles found in swiss alps. These
alleles seem to diminish as they go southward down the
japan/rkyukuian islands set with only one instance found
amoungst ryukiuans.
The remaining alleles are found arrive from the south and
there are multiple instances of these alleles amounst the
Ainu as Gisele has pointed out and also very plentiful in
the New World.
The culture of Japan sort of aligns with this and also
contradicts this. Japans archeology to 10 to 15,000 years
ago reflects the settlement from points south in asia. One
of the obvious cultural elements in that early culture were
the earthen keyhole mounds that were distributed from from
SE asia to china, korean and japan. The presense of these
mounds diminished somewhat from southern to northern Japan,
but the statistics on this are not convincing. The secondary
culture to the earthen keyhole culture was the shell and
shell tool culture that is evident in the ryukyu region to
taiwan and throughout much of the islandic region of the
western pacific. This culture indicates that people must
have had watercraft capable of travel up to 100 miles over
open ocean. Isuspect this shell culture was the first to
settle the americas and left little evidence because they
were primarly coastal dwellers.
Somewhere between 15,000 and 10,000 years ago the culture and
morphology of paleoJapanese undergoes a shift, the shift is
two part. The first part of the shift comes down from the
north, or is most notable in the north part of japan. The
simple stone tools of pre-'protojomonese' were replaced by
refined stone tools typical of western europe from 25 kya and
also clovis culture of <13kya. This culture penetrated
southward on both sides of the sea of Japan, and at times
might have made incursions farther south. After the arrival of
these peoples the culture of southern koreans and southern
japanese shifts. While the keyhole tombs remain along with the
shell tool culture, the Jomon (fishbone earthen wear pot)
culture arises. This culture appears to be associated with
some sort of agricultue. In more preserved pots are found a
lentil type bean similar types of lentils, have apparently
been found in alaska. These might have been transported to or
from the new world.
The reports of the Japanese are that the primatives to the
north were fairskinned and hairy, like the Ainu, the people in
the south would of the per Yayoi period would be easily
distinquishable from the continental invaders, though they do
not show an outstanding similarity with either Ainu or
Europeans. I suspect there was inbreeding because some of the
pictures of samurai show a few with very dense beards which
would be comparable. In understanding Japanese culture one has
to understand how intermixing is possible. The emperial
Japanese court, which is highly dominated by Koreans, though
highly outbred with other klans, claims to have come from the
Hiuga area where they claimed to have settled in 660
B.C. approximately 200 years before evidence for settlement of
Japan appears in Japanese archeology. Around the 4th
century they make a move upward to the Osaka/Nara region.
The power of the Yamato clan comes from the rapidity at
which they displaced primatives from the land in which
they settled. But in the great land rushes of the
Yayoi/Hakata period the number of Feudal Lords increased
and infigthing also increased and this made Japan
vulnerable to outside influences. The rapid succession of
Buddhism over preexisting Uji of Japan can be used as
evidence. Between the 4th to 6th century marked the
turning point in Japanese history that defines Japan as
it is today. Under the Emperor the 'fighting between'
shinto/quasishinto/buddist clans for control over royal
court was diminished by emperial rule. But Japanese
emperial rule only steps in when the people of the
islands were threatened, and in this case the threat was
from china in the form of support for feudal groups. As a
result the emperor acts more as a cultural symbol to
define what is tolerable and intolerable, IOW, creates a
code of behavior. From this point japanese stop
identifying themselves from where they came but as to
where they now live. By Japanese tradition one can see
the law of the land is to 'fit behavior in', the nail
sticks up hammer it down. This ethos is tolerant of
racial differences, but not tolerant of cultural
differences. Therefore it does appear that a certain
number of preexisting groups 'crossed' over from
primative tribes into the norm of japanese culture
without to much difficulty. This hybrid character of
Japanese may actually be inspired by the emperial court,
who may have adopted preYayoi religious symbols into its
religious beliefs.
Therefore many of the primative were probably absorbed into
japanese society and that is the reason we still see
multidirectional gene flow in Japan. But more to the issue.
The critical issue in this debate is the morphology and
makeup of Northern Japanese. I have seen skeleta of Northern
Jomon and while they are noticably dissimilar to the Yayoi
settlers, they lack some of the feature described in
kenniwick man. Likewise they lakc some features of the Ainu.
However these remains have generally come from coastal or
lowland regions and may have been admixture of southern
Jomonese who favored the wet-lowland regions extending
north, and between open range hunters whose tools and
encampments characterized the north. In addition, The Jomon
sequences are associated with a site, which I went and
looked up in the Japanese web sites (since my wife is from
Japan it helpes to interpret some of this) that the 3500 yo
site north of Tokyo is associated with a shell midden and
the males from the site had markedly different mtDNA from
the females, suggesting a matriarchal society, in which
women who settled lowlands might have taken mates who ranged
the highlands looking for game.
Therefore I see a basic problem in the mtDNA comparisons of
Japan. It is clear that west eurasians mtDNA seqeunces have
filtered into Japan and Korea from the north, and if we
could get samples of the peoples as soon as a given wave
arrives, we might have a good chance of positively
establishing genetic makeup. But both mtDNA and culture
show that japan has been settled by Chinese, Koreans,
Continental SE asians, West Pacific Islanders, and At least
one wave from the north, and (or overlapping) from mtDNA
some wave from western eurasia. Some of the complexities of
these migrations will be difficult to parse out of the
data. As with the Ainu, if they are counterparts with other
NA groups, then mtDNA representation might have resulted
from Wife Stealing of lowland dwellers, as a countermeasure
to the matriarchal societies that dwelled in the coastal
regions to the south. IOW there are mtDNA trends in the
data, like north/south cline of westeurasian verses SE
asian alleles frequencies but they do not exactly match up
to extant groups in the region. This is why I have not
posted more on this, and I hope that by next winter I will
have (with alot of help from Gisele) gotten enough sequence
info to do this. We are using the base region of
16124-16392 to allign the database, this represents the
fastest evolving region of HV1, if there is additional
genomic or extended coding region we may be able to alling
these Jomon sequences with something that is comparable to
the rest of the database. But I see this as a couple of
months, minimally of gut-wrenching work.
I am sure that all kind of folks here are going to find a
dissagreement with what I said. If your data is not some
spewing fascist statement of Indonesian or Sino-Korean
supremecy I might actually follow up, but for the most part I
have kill filed a number of you because of past fascist
activities here.
Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth