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Philip Dei
Thu, Jul-18-02, 01:04
I just want to make a side point about mtDNA, to micheal and
to John. If you will think way back before Tishkoff, before
ZFY and the other genetic studies very few people took the
mtDNA studies very seriously. And Micheal in and of itself
Vigilante et al does not define human expansion.

Its the other studies The fact that Y chromosome was recently
fixed. The fact that Tishkoff et al shows diversity in africa
for at least one loci is 8 times that outside of africa. The
fact that 1/3rd of autosomals and X-linked loci have fixed
within the last 400 ky.

These give the mtDNA studies the legs it needs to stand on.
Almost all the composite molecular studies agree that humans
went through a constricted population size. Any fool can
compare human variation to chimpazee (at 2 to 3 magnitudes
small pop size) and realize that there must have been a
constriction. The issue in not that it occurred but where.

The power of mtDNA, particularly HV1 is there is alot of
information about population movements in a very compact
segment of DNA, thats why we use it. More or Less it
recombines at a fraction of the rate of autosomals, but [ahem,
Gisele] its not clear what fraction that is. Given there are
now 6000 mtDNA HV1 or HV2 sequences out there, someone other
than myself thinks these are important. If you MREH guys were
so sure of PDAH1 is so important, why haven't we seen more
PDAH1 sequences published [ahem].

mtDNA is useful in tracing the movement of populations and it
is generally (but not always) useful in creating the temporal
qualifiers on those movements. Someday in the near future we
will start getting whole genome studies of the 100s or 1000s
of mtDNA which we can then trace to 1000s of years versus 10s
of 1000s of years human migrations. By that time I sure hope
you guys have figured it out.

Or Mikey, let me put it to you like this, since you HATE mtDNA
so much (chuckle), Why don't you do for PDAH1 what was done
for mtDNA HV1, put the ole money where your mouth is?

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

Jim McGinn
Thu, Jul-18-02, 01:04
"Philip Deitiker" <pdeitik@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3eb6d57c.279585@netnews.worldnet.att.net...

<snip>

> These give the mtDNA studies the legs it needs to stand on.
> Almost all the composite molecular studies agree that humans
> went through a constricted population size. Any fool can
> compare human variation to chimpazee (at 2 to 3 magnitudes
> small pop size) and realize that there must have been a
> constriction. The issue in not that it occurred but where.

Not so fast there my fine feathered Texan. Relative to chimps
the nature of human selection is considerably more group
oriented. I'm not saying this dictates one conclusion one way
or another but we have to consider the possibiliy that this
unique form of selection may be what produces this narrowing
of human variation. Constrictions, bottlenecks, are not a
forgone conclusion.

<snip>

Jim

When everybody thinks alike nobody thinks.

Leif
Thu, Jul-18-02, 01:04
Philip Deitiker:
> Its the other studies The fact that Y chromosome was
> recently fixed.

Doesn't mean a thing

> The fact that Tishkoff et al shows diversity in africa for
> at least one loci is 8 times that outside of africa.

Doesn't mean a thing

> The fact that 1/3rd of autosomals and X-linked loci have
> fixed within the last 400 ky.
>
> These give the mtDNA studies the legs it needs to stand on.
> Almost all the composite molecular studies agree that humans
> went through a constricted population size. Any fool can
> compare human variation to chimpazee (at 2 to 3 magnitudes
> small pop size) and realize that there must have been a
> constriction. The issue in not that it occurred but where.
>
> The power of mtDNA, particularly HV1 is there is alot of
> information about population movements in a very compact
> segment of DNA, thats why we use it. More or Less it
> recombines at a fraction of the rate of autosomals, but
> [ahem, Gisele] its not clear what fraction that is. Given
> there are now 6000 mtDNA HV1 or HV2 sequences out there,
> someone other than myself thinks these are important. If you
> MREH guys were so sure of PDAH1 is so important, why haven't
> we seen more PDAH1 sequences published [ahem].

There are other examples just like PDHA1, you just don't want
to look at them. Does DRD4 sound familiar?

> mtDNA is useful in tracing the movement of populations and
> it is generally (but not always) useful in creating the
> temporal qualifiers on those movements. Someday in the near
> future we will start getting whole genome studies of the
> 100s or 1000s of mtDNA which we can then trace to 1000s of
> years versus 10s of 1000s of years human migrations. By that
> time I sure hope you guys have figured it out.

mtDNA will never tell us anything of the validity of OoA or
MREH. In fact, there are examples from recent history that
shows the uselessness of mtDNA.

Leif

Philip Dei
Thu, Jul-18-02, 01:04
On Sun, 05 May 2002 18:15:31 GMT, "leif" <leif@rdos.net>
wrote:

>> The fact that Y chromosome was recently fixed.
>Doesn't mean a thing

Leif is , , ,

>> The fact that Tishkoff et al shows diversity in africa
>> for at least one loci is 8 times that outside of africa.
>Doesn't mean a thing

trying to shove . . . .

>There are other examples just like PDHA1, you just don't want
>to look at them. Does DRD4 sound familiar?

his head up . . . .

>mtDNA will never tell us anything of the validity of OoA or
>MREH. In fact, there are examples from recent history that
>shows the uselessness of mtDNA.

his ass.

[Sound of Lief gasping for air]

He must have succeeded.

Don't bother to reply, I've updated my killfile. Philip
<pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

Leif
Thu, Jul-18-02, 01:04
Philip:

> Don't bother to reply, I've updated my killfile.

I knew you wouldn't reply. You just look the other way when
uncomfortable evidence is presented. You hope they will just
disappear as you stick your head in the sand...

BTW, that's also the reason I didn't bother to give you all
the evidence once more. "Don't mean a thing" is good enough
when people don't bother to read.

Leif