Neanderthal Violence - was he gored instead?

[Rich Travs]

Would this be consistent with the evidenced injuries?

[Lorenzo L.]

Rich Travsky wrote:
>
> Would this be consistent with the evidenced injuries?

On top of the head, with enough velocity to break the skull?
If he was diving head first out of a tall tree on to a ...
what, cow, wooly rhinoceros, mammoth looking up? Or maybe he
was in a cave with a really high ceiling and a stalactite
broke off and impaled his skull. Or maybe he was hit by a
meteorite. Yeah, that was it.

If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do you
expect to see a unicorn?

Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

It's frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody
bothers to ask you the questions.

[Ejudy]

And another possibility which would be more likey to set the
guy up to be nursed back to help by his people, would be a
scenario of some sort of game. There are alot of cultures
which have games which cause very dramatic injuries.

ejudy

[Ejudy]

(ejudy) wrote:
>And another possibility which would be more likey to set the
>guy up to be nursed back to _help_

My ussual stupid typo! I meant to say "to be nursed back to
_health_."

One would think that with a short post the likelihood of typo
errors and freudian slips would diminish.....but apparently
not! ;-)))

ejudy

[Rich Travs]

"Lorenzo L. Love" wrote:
>
> Rich Travsky wrote:
> >
> > Would this be consistent with the evidenced injuries?
>
> On top of the head, with enough velocity to break the skull?
> If he was diving head first out of a tall tree on to a ...
> what, cow, wooly rhinoceros, mammoth looking up? Or maybe he
> was in a cave with a really high ceiling and a stalactite
> broke off and impaled his skull. Or maybe he was hit by a
> meteorite. Yeah, that was it.
>
> If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do you
> expect to see a unicorn?

He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up. Probably
several hunting type scenarios that could account for the
placement.

[Philip Dei]

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:25:37 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
<lllove@thegrid.net> wrote:

>Rich Travsky wrote:
>>
>> Would this be consistent with the evidenced injuries?
>
>On top of the head, with enough velocity to break the skull?
>If he was diving head first out of a tall tree on to a ...
>what, cow, wooly rhinoceros, mammoth looking up? Or maybe he
>was in a cave with a really high ceiling and a stalactite
>broke off and impaled his skull. Or maybe he was hit by a
>meteorite. Yeah, that was it.

Yes but being gored in the head by an Ox would be consistent
with other 'rodeo-pro' injuries. From my view of the skull it
does look consistent.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[John H. Wi]

"Lorenzo L. Love" <lllove@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:3CC599A1.9FF24699@thegrid.net...
>
> If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do you
> expect to see a unicorn?
>
Not referring to the question of whether the cut was due
to horn. This analogy has always seemed foolish to me.
Wait and see what one gets - preconceptions can blind
one. If one waits for the evidence, one can generally
distinguish between a horse and a zebra. Interesting
point in the article. Hafted tool. Cheers John GW

[Philip Dei]

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:42:16 -0600, Rich Travsky
<traRvskyE@hotMOVEmail.com> wrote:

>> If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do you
>> expect to see a unicorn?
>
>He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up.
>Probably several hunting type scenarios that could account
>for the placement.

Before this came up, I gave alot of thought about how a
'very' robust human might get injuries of the nature of
neadertals. If the types of injuries that are described are
so common its either the result of ritual (like games, or
ritualized warfare) or something the individuals had to do in
everyday life to survive, such as getting food. I doubt human
inflicted the wounds. These types of wounds are different
from the type of wounds inflicted on humans by other humans.
In addition were is this tool that is shaped like a horn that
causes such injuries.

I came up with this scenario, laughable as it may seem. I
think that these neandertals may have tried to jump large
fauna (but probably not megafuana). Probably one individual
did the jumping and grabbed horns, ears or something and tried
to disrupt the animals flight while the other individuals
joined together to kill the animal. Because the individual who
jumped the animal is most vulnerable he might have suffered
all kinds of head, neck and torso injuries. In addition the
injuries can also be cause by the ground, as in falling on a
hard object.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Lorenzo]

Philip Deitiker wrote:

> Yes but being gored in the head by an Ox would be consistent
> with other 'rodeo-pro' injuries. From my view of the skull
> it does look consistent.
>
> Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

Alternative explainations for so called 'rodeo injuries'
include club fighting, with downward blows fracturing the
forearm as it is instnctively raised to protect the head. A
horn hook to the skull is more likely to fracture the plate
and tear it. A gore injury from the front is somewhat likely
to be accompanied by crushing from the massive auroch skull.
Bulls (in particular) kill farmers every year by such
crushing, usually after the farmer is knocked to the ground.

Lorenzo (NAt Fd Hb)

[Lorenzo L.]

Rich Travsky wrote:
>
> "Lorenzo L. Love" wrote:
> >
> > Rich Travsky wrote:
> > >
> > > Would this be consistent with the evidenced injuries?
> >
> > On top of the head, with enough velocity to break the
> > skull? If he was diving head first out of a tall tree on
> > to a ... what, cow, wooly rhinoceros, mammoth looking up?
> > Or maybe he was in a cave with a really high ceiling and a
> > stalactite broke off and impaled his skull. Or maybe he
> > was hit by a meteorite. Yeah, that was it.
> >
> > If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do
> > you expect to see a unicorn?
>
> He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up.
> Probably several hunting type scenarios that could account
> for the placement.

Earlier articles make it sound like the skull was fractured,
but newer articles like http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/-
articles/A31521-2002Apr22.html give more details:

Zollikofer said the team was doing a
computer-assisted reconstruction of the St.
Cesaire skull when it noticed a
2.7-inch-long scar in the bone on the top
right-hand side of the head.

The position of the cut all but ruled out
an accidental fall, while the shape of the
wound and the fact that the rest of the
skull was neither fractured nor misshapen
indicated a slashing or hacking motion with
a sharp, bladelike tool or weapon, rather
than a club or ax.

"There was almost certainly a flint cutting
edge, and it was hafted onto a wooden
handle," said Neanderthal specialist Erik
Trinkaus of Washington University in St.
Louis, commenting on yesterday's
announcement. "What you had was a large
machete-like implement, except that we
don't have the wood."

In either case, it is damn hard to inflict that kind of damage
to a skull by being gored with a horn. You just can't get that
kind of velocity that would prevent the head from bouncing off
or rolling to the side before cutting into or breaking the
skull. You might get a mighty big chunk of scalp torn off, but
cutting into the bone with a horn not much harder then the
bone itself? No way. I got a box of deer antlers in the garage
if someone wants to donate their head for some experimental
archeology tests. I think that you will find that to inflict
that type of damage, you will need something harder then the
bone your are damaging, i.e. stone. Probably someone with a
Neandertal's musculature could easily strike hard enough with
a hand axe or scraper to do this, but a hafted tool provides
an enormous increase in velocity and therefore impact. That's
why we haft tools.

Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

[Rich Travs]

Philip Deitiker wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:42:16 -0600, Rich Travsky
> <traRvskyE@hotMOVEmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do
> >> you expect to see a unicorn?
> >
> >He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up.
> >Probably several hunting type scenarios that could account
> >for the placement.
>
> Before this came up, I gave alot of thought about how a
> 'very' robust human might get injuries of the nature of
> neadertals. If the types of injuries that are described are
> so common its either the result of ritual (like games, or
> ritualized warfare) or something the individuals had to do
> in everyday life to survive, such as getting food. I doubt
> human inflicted the wounds. These types of wounds are
> different from the type of wounds inflicted on humans by
> other humans. In addition were is this tool that is shaped
> like a horn that causes such injuries.
>
> I came up with this scenario, laughable as it may seem. I
> think that these neandertals may have tried to jump large
> fauna (but probably not megafuana). Probably one individual
> did the jumping and grabbed horns, ears or something and

Or antlers...

> tried to disrupt the animals flight while the other
> individuals joined together to kill the animal. Because the
> individual who jumped the animal is most vulnerable he might
> have suffered all kinds of head, neck and torso injuries. In
> addition the injuries can also be cause by the ground, as in
> falling on a hard object.

Is the rest of the chap available? Or just the skull? The rest
of the remains might give insight to that.

[Firstjois]

"Philip Deitiker" <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:jlibcu44vgki9q6aqdm2a1ku69c5qspefc@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:42:16 -0600, Rich Travsky
: <traRvskyE@hotMOVEmail.com> wrote:
:
:
: >> If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do
: >> you expect to see a unicorn?
: >
: >He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up.
: >Probably several
hunting
: >type scenarios that could account for the placement.
:
: Before this came up, I gave alot of thought about how a
: 'very' robust human might get injuries of the nature of
: neadertals. If the types of injuries that are described are
: so common its either the result of ritual (like games, or
: ritualized warfare) or something the individuals had to do
: in everyday life to survive, such as getting food. I doubt
: human inflicted the wounds. These types of wounds are
: different from the type of wounds inflicted on humans by
: other humans. In addition were is this tool that is shaped
: like a horn that causes such injuries.
:
: I came up with this scenario, laughable as it may seem. I
: think that these neandertals may have tried to jump large
: fauna (but probably not megafuana). Probably one individual
: did the jumping and grabbed horns, ears or something and
: tried to disrupt the animals flight while the other
: individuals joined together to kill the animal. Because the
: individual who jumped the animal is most vulnerable he might
: have suffered all kinds of head, neck and torso injuries. In
: addition the injuries can also be cause by the ground, as in
: falling on a hard object.
:
: Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
: http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

Your scenario may not be too far from what others suspect was
the usual method (due to injuries seen on fossils)
Neanderthals used for hunting. Yet, this seems very wasteful
to me. If the Neanderthals lived in groups of about a dozen
and butchered a beast every couple of weeks, wouldn't they run
out of hunters?

Jois

[Philip Dei]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:32:29 +1200, Lorenzo
<lorenzo@naturalhub.com> wrote:

>Alternative explainations for so called 'rodeo injuries'
>include club fighting, with downward blows fracturing the
>forearm as it is instnctively raised to protect the head. A
>horn hook to the skull is more likely to fracture the plate
>and tear it. A gore injury from the front is somewhat likely
>to be accompanied by crushing from the massive auroch skull.
>Bulls (in particular) kill farmers every year by such
>crushing, usually after the farmer is knocked to the ground.

They "said" it looked like a Machete chop, but from the image
I saw it looked like a gore as primary injury and a chop as
superficial, This could have happened if and individual feel
to the ground or gore in the head while on the ground.

I am not neccesarily convinced of their interpretation by the
image presented, nor should anyone be convinced.

Why would Neandertals spend so much time caring for
individuals injured within their own group? That is a sort of
self defeating thing.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Philip Dei]

On Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:32:29 +1200, Lorenzo
<lorenzo@naturalhub.com> wrote:

>A gore injury from the front is somewhat likely to be
>accompanied by crushing from the massive auroch skull. Bulls
>(in particular) kill farmers every year by such crushing,
>usually after the farmer is knocked to the ground.

Human yes, Neandertal probably no. We have to remember that
Neandertals survived massive injury meaning that, I speculate,
the selection on neandertal body plan is to survive such
injuries by whatever methodology that they are exposed.

If a human were to take on a neandertal they would do so with
the same strategy they would take on megafauna, spears, bow
and arrow, repeated puncture injuries and distal forms of
debilitation. If they got close to neandertals, the neandertal
would like be stirring their dinner pot with [broken] human
bones. Plus these types of injuries go far back in time before
humans appear on the seen in eurasia. So it is either N/N or
N/Other animal. Other animals that might have caused such
injuries, wild boars. One also has to remember that
this individual survived. Now put yourself in the
position of a cromagnon man or competitive neandertal.
You've just clobbered a Neandertal, sliced his skull up
and put a ballpen hammer injury in his skull, he's on
the ground. Do you:

O. Leave him to tell his friends and family who got him
P. Give him a few whacks, and us that machete on his throat to
finish off the job. Dead men tell not tells.

Now put yourself in the position of the Neandertal who was
just clobbered by some wild animal. You've obviously lost the
battle do you:

Q. Continue to struggle, and risk getting womped again.
R. Play dead, let the animal knock you a few times and then go
away (obviously with multiple porcids your going to be
lunch), and wait for your clan mates to find you and help
you back into shape.

Most animals who are not going to eat you will leave you for
dead if you play dead.

Most humans will finish the job. If Neandertals are
constantly surviving and healing from heavy blunt force
traumas the most likely explanation is that the 'responsible'
party is not a competitor or a predator but a prey who just
wants to be left alone.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Richard Wa]

"Lorenzo L. Love" wrote:

> Rich Travsky wrote:
> >
> > "Lorenzo L. Love" wrote:
> > >
> > > Rich Travsky wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Would this be consistent with the evidenced injuries?
> > >
> > > On top of the head, with enough velocity to break the
> > > skull? If he was diving head first out of a tall tree on
> > > to a ... what, cow, wooly rhinoceros, mammoth looking
> > > up? Or maybe he was in a cave with a really high ceiling
> > > and a stalactite broke off and impaled his skull. Or
> > > maybe he was hit by a meteorite. Yeah, that was it.
> > >
> > > If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do
> > > you expect to see a unicorn?
> >
> > He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up.
> > Probably several hunting type scenarios that could account
> > for the placement.
>
> Earlier articles make it sound like the skull was fractured,
> but newer articles like http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy-
> n/articles/A31521-2002Apr22.html give more details:
>
> Zollikofer said the team was doing a
> computer-assisted reconstruction of the
> St. Cesaire skull when it noticed a
> 2.7-inch-long scar in the bone on the top
> right-hand side of the head.
>
> The position of the cut all but ruled out
> an accidental fall, while the shape of
> the wound and the fact that the rest of
> the skull was neither fractured nor
> misshapen indicated a slashing or hacking
> motion with a sharp, bladelike tool or
> weapon, rather than a club or ax.
>
> "There was almost certainly a flint
> cutting edge, and it was hafted onto a
> wooden handle," said Neanderthal
> specialist Erik Trinkaus of Washington
> University in St. Louis, commenting on
> yesterday's announcement. "What you had
> was a large machete-like implement,
> except that we don't have the wood."
>
> In either case, it is damn hard to inflict that kind of
> damage to a skull by being gored with a horn. You just can't
> get that kind of velocity that would prevent the head from
> bouncing off or rolling to the side before cutting into or
> breaking the skull. You might get a mighty big chunk of
> scalp torn off, but cutting into the bone with a horn not
> much harder then the bone itself? No way. I got a box of
> deer antlers in the garage if someone wants to donate their
> head for some experimental archeology tests. I think that
> you will find that to inflict that type of damage, you will
> need something harder then the bone your are damaging, i.e.
> stone. Probably someone with a Neandertal's musculature
> could easily strike hard enough with a hand axe or scraper
> to do this, but a hafted tool provides an enormous increase
> in velocity and therefore impact. That's why we haft tools.
>
> Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>
> I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

Anything rule out a glancing blow from a bear or lion? A claw
sounds like a dandy 'blade like instrument' to me. And Ns
probably had to dispossess lions and bears of their caves on
numerous occasions - like every fall.

Rick Wagler

[Rich Travs]

"Lorenzo L. Love" wrote:
> [...] In either case, it is damn hard to inflict that kind
> of damage to a skull by being gored with a horn. You just
> can't get that kind of velocity that would prevent the head
> from bouncing off or rolling to the side before cutting into
> or breaking the skull. You might get a mighty big chunk of
> scalp torn off, but cutting into the bone with a horn not
> much harder then the bone itself? No way. I got a box of
> deer antlers in the garage if someone wants to donate their
> head for some experimental archeology tests. I think that
> you will find that to inflict that type of damage, you will
> need something harder then the bone your are damaging, i.e.
> stone. Probably someone with a Neandertal's musculature
> could easily strike hard enough with a hand axe or scraper
> to do this, but a hafted tool provides an enormous increase
> in velocity and therefore impact. That's why we haft tools.

Some of the antlered critters of that time were a bit bigger
than today's antlered critters.

[Philip Dei]

On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:07:07 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
<lllove@thegrid.net> wrote:

>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31521-2002Apr-
>22.html give more details:
>
Zollikofer said the team was doing a computer-assisted
reconstruction of the St. Cesaire skull when it noticed a
2.7-inch-long scar in the bone on the top right-hand side
of the head.

The position of the cut all but ruled out an accidental fall,
while the shape of the wound and the fact that the rest of the
skull was neither fractured nor misshapen indicated a slashing
or hacking motion with a sharp, bladelike tool or weapon,
rather than a club or ax.

"There was almost certainly a flint cutting edge, and it
was hafted onto a wooden handle," said Neanderthal
specialist Erik Trinkaus of Washington University in St.
Louis, commenting on yesterday's announcement. "What you
had was a large Machete- like implement, except that we
don't have the wood."

With all due respect to Trink . ., actually with no due
respect to Trinkhaus, this is absolute BullCaca. END QUOTE

Based on a computer reconstruction the wound had to be made
with flint. What is the confidence interval on that argument?
These are the types of arguments and finds that have gotten
Paleoanthropology in deep do-do red faces in the past. Did the
computer find evidence of flint knap in the fracture itself?
Trust me on this one someone out there has got a favorite
theory they are trying to pet, and others have got a bit of
genuflectation going on.

I like the idea of a big cat also. Before trinkhaus can make
this assertion, I think we need to see the tool that can
specifically cause this type of wound, before we are so
confident that a flint tool actually made this wound.

Get the bulldozer out Trinkhaus is back in town.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Ejudy]

"Lorenzo L. Love" <lllove@thegrid.net> wrote:

>
> In either case, it is damn hard to inflict that kind of
> damage to a skull by being gored with a horn. You just can't
> get that kind of velocity that would prevent the head from
> bouncing off or rolling to the side before cutting into or
> breaking the skull. You might get a mighty big chunk of
> scalp torn off, but cutting into the bone with a horn not
> much harder then the bone itself? No way. I got a box of
> deer antlers in the garage if someone wants to donate their
> head for some experimental archeology tests. I think that
> you will find that to inflict that type of damage, you will
> need something harder then the bone your are damaging, i.e.
> stone. Probably someone with a Neandertal's musculature
> could easily strike hard enough with a hand axe or scraper
> to do this, but a hafted tool provides an enormous increase
> in velocity and therefore impact. That's why we haft tools.
>
> Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>
> I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

;-) ok..... and deitiker wrote elsewhere:
>
> "There was almost certainly a flint cutting edge, and it
> was hafted onto a wooden handle," said Neanderthal
> specialist Erik Trinkaus of Washington University in St.
> Louis, commenting on yesterday's announcement. "What you
> had was a large Machete- like implement, except that we
> don't have the wood."
>
>With all due respect to Trink . ., actually with no due
>respect to Trinkhaus, this is absolute BullCaca. END QUOTE
>
>I like the idea of a big cat also. Before trinkhaus can make
>this assertion, I think we need to see the tool that can
>specifically cause this type of wound, before we are so
>confident that a flint tool actually made this wound.
>
Yeah ok but we can narrow the possibilities....... there
wasn't the whole gamut of materials to choose from like in
these all too foolish modern times....

So somebody should just make a simple list. Then you don't
need to argue right??? Call in the local
geologist/archaeologist for that region and be done with it,
eh? To make too much of these things or be too sure like
Mr. T seems like a lousey waste of good time.

ejudy

[Lorenzo L.]

firstjois wrote:
>
> "Philip Deitiker" <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
> news:jlibcu44vgki9q6aqdm2a1ku69c5qspefc@4ax.com...
> : On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:42:16 -0600, Rich Travsky
> : <traRvskyE@hotMOVEmail.com> wrote:
> :
> :
> : >> If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do
> : >> you expect to see a unicorn?
> : >
> : >He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up.
> : >Probably several
> hunting
> : >type scenarios that could account for the placement.
> :
> : Before this came up, I gave alot of thought about how a
> : 'very' robust human might get injuries of the nature of
> : neadertals. If the types of injuries that are described
> : are so common its either the result of ritual (like games,
> : or ritualized warfare) or something the individuals had to
> : do in everyday life to survive, such as getting food. I
> : doubt human inflicted the wounds. These types of wounds
> : are different from the type of wounds inflicted on humans
> : by other humans. In addition were is this tool that is
> : shaped like a horn that causes such injuries.
> :
> : I came up with this scenario, laughable as it may seem. I
> : think that these neandertals may have tried to jump large
> : fauna (but probably not megafuana). Probably one
> : individual did the jumping and grabbed horns, ears or
> : something and tried to disrupt the animals flight while
> : the other individuals joined together to kill the animal.
> : Because the individual who jumped the animal is most
> : vulnerable he might have suffered all kinds of head, neck
> : and torso injuries. In addition the injuries can also be
> : cause by the ground, as in falling on a hard object.
> :
> : Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> : http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth
>
> Your scenario may not be too far from what others suspect
> was the usual method (due to injuries seen on fossils)
> Neanderthals used for hunting. Yet, this seems very wasteful
> to me. If the Neanderthals lived in groups of about a dozen
> and butchered a beast every couple of weeks, wouldn't they
> run out of hunters?
>
> Jois

We haven't run out of rodeo riders and they get stomped the
same way. It happens, but not every time.

I think Philip has it basically right, but it's likely there
were spears involved, since we know that they have been in use
for a long time. I imagine that several individuals would
burst out of cover and throw spears at the prey, probably wood
pointed javelins, hopefully knocking it down. Because
Neandertals were not built for a chase, someone had to run up
and jump on the wounded animal before it could get up and run
away, in order to hold it down while his buddies came up and
finished it off with stone tipped thrusting spears. It would
have been over with in seconds. Sapiens, on the other hand,
more physically suited for running and less suited for
bulldogging, would be more likely to let the wounded animal
get away and chase it until it collapsed, then finishing it
off. Same type of weapons, used basically the same way, but
with different hunting tactics imposed by different physical
forms resulting in different injury patterns.

Maybe they were doing something else to get so beat up but
hunting injuries seem the simplest explanation.

Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't
believe in tolerance and free speech," David Brin

[Richard Wa]

firstjois wrote:

> "Philip Deitiker" <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
> news:jlibcu44vgki9q6aqdm2a1ku69c5qspefc@4ax.com...
> : On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:42:16 -0600, Rich Travsky
> : <traRvskyE@hotMOVEmail.com> wrote:
> :
> :
> : >> If you are on a horse track and hear hoofs clopping, do
> : >> you expect to see a unicorn?
> : >
> : >He could've been ducking and got hit as he raised up.
> : >Probably several
> hunting
> : >type scenarios that could account for the placement.
> :
> : Before this came up, I gave alot of thought about how a
> : 'very' robust human might get injuries of the nature of
> : neadertals. If the types of injuries that are described
> : are so common its either the result of ritual (like games,
> : or ritualized warfare) or something the individuals had to
> : do in everyday life to survive, such as getting food. I
> : doubt human inflicted the wounds. These types of wounds
> : are different from the type of wounds inflicted on humans
> : by other humans. In addition were is this tool that is
> : shaped like a horn that causes such injuries.
> :
> : I came up with this scenario, laughable as it may seem. I
> : think that these neandertals may have tried to jump large
> : fauna (but probably not megafuana). Probably one
> : individual did the jumping and grabbed horns, ears or
> : something and tried to disrupt the animals flight while
> : the other individuals joined together to kill the animal.
> : Because the individual who jumped the animal is most
> : vulnerable he might have suffered all kinds of head, neck
> : and torso injuries. In addition the injuries can also be
> : cause by the ground, as in falling on a hard object.
> :
> : Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> : http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth
>
> Your scenario may not be too far from what others suspect
> was the usual method (due to injuries seen on fossils)
> Neanderthals used for hunting. Yet, this seems very wasteful
> to me. If the Neanderthals lived in groups of about a dozen
> and butchered a beast every couple of weeks, wouldn't they
> run out of hunters?
>
> Jois

This scenario proves that Ns had complex, stratified
societies. How but with a complex system of
rewards/punishments or status/ no status would it be
decided which gormless dolt would do the leaping onto the
beast in question?

Just a thought......:-))

Rick Wagler

[Lorenzo L.]

Philip Deitiker wrote:
>
> They "said" it looked like a Machete chop, but from the
> image I saw it looked like a gore as primary injury and a
> chop as superficial, This could have happened if and
> individual feel to the ground or gore in the head while on
> the ground.
>
> I am not neccesarily convinced of their interpretation by
> the image presented, nor should anyone be convinced.
>
> Why would Neandertals spend so much time caring for
> individuals injured within their own group? That is a sort
> of self defeating thing.
>
> Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

I don't know how anyone could tell anything from the images in
these articles.

What percentage of the GNP does the US spend on health care?
15%? Isn't that sort of self defeating? Shouldn't we just let
sick people die? Think of all the beer and video games that
money would buy!

Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

An optimist thinks that this is the best possible world. A
pessimist fears that this is true.

[Lorenzo L.]

Richard Wagler wrote:
> Anything rule out a glancing blow from a bear or lion? A
> claw sounds like a dandy 'blade like instrument' to me. And
> Ns probably had to dispossess lions and bears of their caves
> on numerous occasions - like every fall.
>
> Rick Wagler

A claw sounds a lot more likely then a horn. It would be a lot
sharper and I'm sure that a cave bear could slap even the
burliest Neandertal into next week. Maybe microscopic analysis
can distinguish between a point gouging out a groove and an
edge cutting a groove.

Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

An optimist thinks that this is the best possible world. A
pessimist fears that this is true.

[Rich Travs]

Richard Wagler wrote:
> [...] Anything rule out a glancing blow from a bear or lion?
> A claw sounds like a dandy 'blade like instrument' to me.
> And Ns probably had to dispossess lions and bears of their
> caves on numerous occasions - like every fall.

A claw? Wouldn't there be signs of more than one, simply
because paws have more than claw? (The reconstructed remains
don't look like such would be preserved, tho.)

[Bob Keeter]

in article nchdcu4ddb8en3u81h2n2ub7lhcrpbj9kb@4ax.com, Philip
Deitiker at pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu wrote on 4/24/02 9:57 AM:

Snippage. . . . . . .

>
> With all due respect to Trink . ., actually with no due
> respect to Trinkhaus, this is absolute BullCaca. END QUOTE
>

Not so fast there , Batman!

> Based on a computer reconstruction the wound had to be made
> with flint. What is the confidence interval on that
> argument? These are the types of arguments and finds that
> have gotten Paleoanthropology in deep do-do red faces in the
> past. Did the computer find evidence of flint knap in the
> fracture itself? Trust me on this one someone out there has
> got a favorite theory they are trying to pet, and others
> have got a bit of genuflectation going on.
>

Not saying that this is what happened, just POSSIBLY it might
have been! If you see a cut in a hard material you can make
some pretty good guestimates as to some of the characteristics
of the tool that made the cut. One of those old trade school
courses on selecting the right lathe tool and turning speed or
something like that. If the cutting tool and the cuttee (geez,
looks like I invented a new technical word. . . actually just
could not see using the term billet for a HN skull! ;-) ) are
about the same hardness, you can very easily get a sort of
crumbly cut, a ragged "tear" if you will. If the cutting tool
is much harder than the material being cut, its much easier to
get a clean "knife edge" cut. Now teeth and bone are fairly
close to the same hardness, as would be bone and bone. The
keritin in a big cat or bears claws is considerably softer
than bone. Nobody (at least none that I know of say that HN
had bronze so. . . .) we might just be left with stone, and
specifically those stones considerably harder than human bone.

That leaves such things as obsidian, quartz, and flint as
likely materials If this were an area with a lot of obsidian,
that would be my bet from the get go. easier to put and edge
on than flint and in areas where there is any significant
ammount of obsidian, tends to be much more common than flint.

> I like the idea of a big cat also. Before trinkhaus can make
> this assertion, I think we need to see the tool that can
> specifically cause this type of wound, before we are so
> confident that a flint tool actually made this wound.
>

A big cat's teeth might not be "sharp" enough I think and
perhaps the claws might be too soft. Same with a bear, of
course a broken tooth with a really sharp edge MIGHT do the
trick, but even then there would probably be some gouges from
the other, blunter teeth.

Anyway, I believe that there is a small apith skull that shows
exatly what a primate skull looks like after a big cat has had
a go at it! 8-)

> Get the bulldozer out Trinkhaus is back in town.
>
> Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

'Twoud be a very busy bulldozer I fear!

Macquahuitl, yep, macquahuitl (I believe the spelling might
even be right, just dont ask me to pronounce it!). And the
question was. . . . . . . . what kind of weapon might leave
such a slicing cut in a neanderthal head? A macquahuitl was an
Aztec obsidian-edged, wooden sword or war club. Worked quite
nicely (which was possibly one of the reasons for their
headdresses and certainly one for their quilted textile armor!

[Firstjois]

"Lorenzo L. Love" <lllove@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:3CC5F18C.7F92139C@thegrid.net...
: Philip Deitiker wrote:
[snip]

: > Why would Neandertals spend so much time caring for
: > individuals injured within their own group? That is a sort
: > of self defeating thing.
: >
: > Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
: > http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth
:
[snip]

: What percentage of the GNP does the US spend on health care?
: 15%? Isn't that sort of self defeating? Shouldn't we just
: let sick people die? Think of all the beer and video games
: that money would buy!
:
: Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
:
I don't know if this is such a big deal for even lions have
been found with injuries that must have required the group to
provide food to the injured.

Jois

[Rich Travs]

"Lorenzo L. Love" wrote:
> [...] it down. Because Neandertals were not built for a
> chase, someone had to run up and jump on the wounded animal
> before it could get up and run

Actually, a chase isn't necessary, ambush could be used too.

> [...]

[Richard Wa]

Rich Travsky wrote:

> Richard Wagler wrote:
> > [...] Anything rule out a glancing blow from a bear or
> > lion? A claw sounds like a dandy 'blade like instrument'
> > to me. And Ns probably had to dispossess lions and bears
> > of their caves on numerous occasions - like every fall.
>
> A claw? Wouldn't there be signs of more than one, simply
> because paws have more than claw? (The reconstructed remains
> don't look like such would be preserved, tho.)

But the wound is healed. Which is why I suggest a glancing
blow. Had this chap taken a full force multi-clawed swipe to
the head I should think the result would be more than
Neanderthal medecine was capable of dealing with. In any case
the abstract seems to be a massive jump to a conclusion.
Perhaps the full article rules out many of the myriad ways a
fellow in the rough and tumble world of the Middle
Palaeolithic could get his skull creased.

Rick Wagler

[Anne V. Gi]

Rich:

> A claw? Wouldn't there be signs of more than one, simply
> because paws have more than claw? (The reconstructed remains
> don't look like such would be preserved, tho.)

And would't a lion or a cave bear be more likely to try to hit
the face or go for the eyes? I don't know, of course, and I
suppose it would depend on the position the victim was
in(whether or not he was standing). Anne G

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG
anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 /
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[Lorenzo L.]

Bob Keeter wrote:
>
> in article nchdcu4ddb8en3u81h2n2ub7lhcrpbj9kb@4ax.com,
> Philip Deitiker at pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu wrote on 4/24/02
> 9:57 AM:
>
> Snippage. . . . . . .
>
> >
> > With all due respect to Trink . ., actually with no due
> > respect to Trinkhaus, this is absolute BullCaca. END QUOTE
> >
>
> Not so fast there , Batman!
>
> > Based on a computer reconstruction the wound had to be
> > made with flint. What is the confidence interval on that
> > argument? These are the types of arguments and finds that
> > have gotten Paleoanthropology in deep do-do red faces in
> > the past. Did the computer find evidence of flint knap in
> > the fracture itself? Trust me on this one someone out
> > there has got a favorite theory they are trying to pet,
> > and others have got a bit of genuflectation going on.
> >
>
> Not saying that this is what happened, just POSSIBLY it
> might have been! If you see a cut in a hard material you
> can make some pretty good guestimates as to some of the
> characteristics of the tool that made the cut. One of
> those old trade school courses on selecting the right
> lathe tool and turning speed or something like that. If
> the cutting tool and the cuttee (geez, looks like I
> invented a new technical word. . . actually just could not
> see using the term billet for a HN skull! ;-) ) are about
> the same hardness, you can very easily get a sort of
> crumbly cut, a ragged "tear" if you will. If the cutting
> tool is much harder than the material being cut, its much
> easier to get a clean "knife edge" cut. Now teeth and bone
> are fairly close to the same hardness, as would be bone
> and bone. The keritin in a big cat or bears claws is
> considerably softer than bone. Nobody (at least none that
> I know of say that HN had bronze so. . . .) we might just
> be left with stone, and specifically those stones
> considerably harder than human bone.
>
> That leaves such things as obsidian, quartz, and flint as
> likely materials If this were an area with a lot of
> obsidian, that would be my bet from the get go. easier to
> put and edge on than flint and in areas where there is any
> significant ammount of obsidian, tends to be much more
> common than flint.
>
> > I like the idea of a big cat also. Before trinkhaus can
> > make this assertion, I think we need to see the tool that
> > can specifically cause this type of wound, before we are
> > so confident that a flint tool actually made this wound.
> >
>
> A big cat's teeth might not be "sharp" enough I think and
> perhaps the claws might be too soft. Same with a bear, of
> course a broken tooth with a really sharp edge MIGHT do the
> trick, but even then there would probably be some gouges
> from the other, blunter teeth.
>
> Anyway, I believe that there is a small apith skull that
> shows exatly what a primate skull looks like after a big cat
> has had a go at it! 8-)
>
> > Get the bulldozer out Trinkhaus is back in town.
> >
> > Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> > http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth
>
> 'Twoud be a very busy bulldozer I fear!
>
> Macquahuitl, yep, macquahuitl (I believe the spelling might
> even be right, just dont ask me to pronounce it!). And the
> question was. . . . . . . . what kind of weapon might leave
> such a slicing cut in a neanderthal head? A macquahuitl was
> an Aztec obsidian-edged, wooden sword or war club. Worked
> quite nicely (which was possibly one of the reasons for
> their headdresses and certainly one for their quilted
> textile armor!

Actually teeth are a good bit harder then bone, they are
hardest biological material there is. That's why so often it's
the only thing left. But if a big cat had a good enough grip
on this guy's head to gouge the bone like that, well I kind of
doubt that there would have been any sign of healing cause the
guy would have probably been killed.

You can find weapons somewhat similar to Macquahuitls in
Europe but not for 20 odd thousand years after this event.
What is wrong with a good old Mousterian point?

Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"A government that does not trust its law-abiding citizens to
keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust." James Madison

[Richard Sw]

"Richard Wagler" <taxidea3@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3CC5ED2C.CB886E3E@shaw.ca...

<clip...clip>
> How but with a complex system of rewards/punishments or
> status/ no status would it be decided which gormless dolt
> would do the leaping onto the beast in question?
<...clip...clip>

> Rick Wagler

GORMLESS...[British informal] (Gaumless ... by speakers with
r-less accents)

GAUMLESS...lacking in vitality or intelligence; stupid, dull,
or clumsy.

All the above from: Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged
Dictionary of the English Language. Gramercy Books; New
York, 1996

[Lorenzo L.]

Rich Travsky wrote:
>
> "Lorenzo L. Love" wrote:
> > [...] it down. Because Neandertals were not built for a
> > chase, someone had to run up and jump on the wounded
> > animal before it could get up and run
>
> Actually, a chase isn't necessary, ambush could be used too.
>
> > [...]

An ambush was exactly what I was describing. But an ambush
doesn't mean that the prey walks up and steps on you. How
close do you think an animal with an acute sense of smell like
a deer or a horse will come to someone in an ambush? Which is
more likely, thrusting spear range (less then 2m) or throwing
spear range (maybe 20m)? For reasons previously discussed,
stone tipped spears are not practical for throwing (the points
break), so a throwing spear would just have a wood point, like
the Schoningen javelins. The problem is, these wood javelins
aren't likely to kill even a small deer outright. They don't
penetrate all that well compared to a razor sharp flint point.
The animal would have plenty of time to run off and bleed to
death in private and Neandertals just weren't built for
running after them. But Neandertals probably weren't all that
bad at a short sprint. So that's why I think they would throw
their javelins (yes, from ambush) and try to knock down or
temporarily stun the animal, then who ever was closest would
sprint up and jump on it and keep if from running off until
the others could come up and spear the animal with their
deadly but fragile stone tipped thrusting spears.

Sapiens, prior to the invention of truly long distance weapons
like atlatls or bows, could ambush the prey the same, but as
really phenomenal endurance runners, had no need to risk
injury. They could follow the wounded prey for hours until it
dropped from blood loss or exhaustion.

All this is supposition, but it takes into account the
realities of primitive weapons and the physical differences
between Neandertals and sapiens and explains the unique injury
pattern found in Neandertals. Anyone with a better story?

Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"A government that does not trust its law-abiding citizens to
keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust." James Madison

[Bob Keeter]

in article
BRox8.66455$ro5.6049034@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com, firstjois
at firstjoisyikes@hotmail.com wrote on 4/23/02 9:35 PM:

>
> "Lorenzo L. Love" <lllove@thegrid.net> wrote in message
> news:3CC5F18C.7F92139C@thegrid.net...
> : Philip Deitiker wrote:
> [snip]
>
> : > Why would Neandertals spend so much time caring for
> : > individuals injured within their own group? That is a
> : > sort of self defeating thing.
> : >
> : > Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
> : > http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth
> :
> [snip]
>
> : What percentage of the GNP does the US spend on health
> : care? 15%? Isn't that sort of self defeating? Shouldn't we
> : just let sick people die? Think of all the beer and video
> : games that money would buy!
> :
> : Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
> :
> I don't know if this is such a big deal for even lions have
> been found with injuries that must have required the group
> to provide food to the injured.
>
> Jois
>
>

Actually over in the paleontology world there is an
interesting situation in which a T. rex skeleton was found
with a really gory (and at least partially healed) displaced,
compound fracture of the femur. IOW, the animal had to have at
least had enough food delivered to allow the bones to begin to
knit, and essentially fuze, before it died! (By the way that
was the infamouse "Sue" fossil!)

http://www2.worldbook.com/features/features.asp?feature=dinos-
aurs&page=html/ trex.htm&direct=yes

It would appear that even this T.rex had enough care bestowed
on her by her own, to outlive starvation after such an injury!
Having survived the critique of Darwin's swift sword for a
100my or so, perhaps even instinctual as well as the more
"human" intellectually motivated care and comfort are not such
a self defeating thing, in spite of the far more erudite and
logical view. ;-)

Regards bk

[Philip Dei]

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 04:45:16 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
<lllove@thegrid.net> wrote:

>"A government that does not trust its law-abiding citizens to
>keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust."

You think this was an instance of Justice at work. Lets
conjure up that image.

"Ok unga, you leered at my daughter just a few seconds to
long, bend over, if you are worthy of her affection you will
survive this [Thump, splat]
. . . . . otherwise ole woof-woof isn't going to go
hungry tonight".

[4 months later]

"Ohhhhhh, Unga, you have awaken from you long sleep, daddy
has agreed, ummm, no daddy got gored by an Ox, so now we can
be hitched"

UNga "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, who are you?"

Daughter "Why, I am your mat . . [hestitating], your god,
thats right, you must whorship me, do everyhitng that I say"

Unga "Now why didn't that old basturd hit me harder
[Thinking] . . . . . Umm is that Ox that killed your father,
is it still around"

Daughter "Yes he is still on the other hill, mean as ever"

Unga [Jumping out of bed and running to the OX] "Good, god,
Ill see you in the afterlife"

[The sound of an OX goring a Neandertal and stomping him into
a hole in the ground]

Like this kind of Justice?


Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Bob Keeter]

in article 3CC78A5F.2307A975@thegrid.net, Lorenzo L. Love at
lllove@thegrid.net wrote on 4/24/02 11:45 PM:

Snippage. . . . .

>>
>> 'Twoud be a very busy bulldozer I fear!
>>
>> Macquahuitl, yep, macquahuitl (I believe the spelling might
>> even be right, just dont ask me to pronounce it!). And the
>> question was. . . . . . . . what kind of weapon might leave
>> such a slicing cut in a neanderthal head? A macquahuitl was
>> an Aztec obsidian-edged, wooden sword or war club. Worked
>> quite nicely (which was possibly one of the reasons for
>> their headdresses and certainly one for their quilted
>> textile armor!
>
> Actually teeth are a good bit harder then bone, they are
> hardest biological material there is. That's why so often
> it's the only thing left. But if a big cat had a good enough
> grip on this guy's head to gouge the bone like that, well I
> kind of doubt that there would have been any sign of healing
> cause the guy would have probably been killed.
>

Yeah, tooth enamel is a bit harder than your basic bone, I
suspect even the dentine underneath might be pretty tough
stuff, but have you ever really looked at the teeth of a big
cat? The fangs are sort of blunted from wear and tear, NOTHING
like the sharp little fangs of a kitten. On the other hand, as
you of course pointed out, if a big cat got its shearing teeth
on that skull there would be no mystery why it was in
fragments, BUT then the healing becomes a big problem!

> You can find weapons somewhat similar to Macquahuitls in
> Europe but not for 20 odd thousand years after this event.
> What is wrong with a good old Mousterian point?
>

I think perhaps it might be the shape and regularity of the
cut. Now that you mention it though, with a mousterian point,
particularly if in a throwing spear it might leave just such a
gouge. If you get right down to it, unless there is better
evidence than offered, Id just about bet on this fellow having
lost a round of javelin catching. You would get a fairly
straight gash as the spear bounced off that very substantial
noggin. Having been thrown, it could explain the placement of
the cut if tossed from a significant distance.

Regards bk

[Richard Wa]

Richard Swigart wrote:

> "Richard Wagler" <taxidea3@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:3CC5ED2C.CB886E3E@shaw.ca...
>
> <clip...clip>
> > How but with a complex system of rewards/punishments or
> > status/ no status would it be decided which gormless dolt
> > would do the leaping onto the beast in question?
> <...clip...clip>
>
> > Rick Wagler
>
> GORMLESS...[British informal] (Gaumless ... by speakers with
> r-less accents)
>
> GAUMLESS...lacking in vitality or intelligence; stupid,
> dull, or clumsy.
>
> All the above from: Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged
> Dictionary of the English Language. Gramercy Books; New
> York, 1996

Yer right....'gormless dolt' is redundant.

Rick Wagler

[John H. Wi]

"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B8ECC5D8.C2F3%rkeeter@earthlink.net...
> in article
> BRox8.66455$ro5.6049034@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com,
> firstjois
at
> firstjoisyikes@hotmail.com wrote on 4/23/02 9:35 PM:
>
> >
> > "Lorenzo L. Love" <lllove@thegrid.net> wrote in message
> > news:3CC5F18C.7F92139C@thegrid.net...
> > : Philip Deitiker wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> > : > Why would Neandertals spend so much time caring for
> > : > individuals injured within their own group? That is a
> > : > sort of self defeating thing.
> > : >
> > :
> > I don't know if this is such a big deal for even lions
> > have been found
with
> > injuries that must have required the group to provide food
> > to the
injured.
> >
> > Jois
> >
> >
>
>
> Actually over in the paleontology world there is an
> interesting situation
in
> which a T. rex skeleton was found with a really gory (and
> at least
partially
> healed) displaced, compound fracture of the femur. IOW, the
> animal had to have at least had enough food delivered to
> allow the bones to begin to
knit,
> and essentially fuze, before it died!

Hugh Glass received no care and survived terrible
injuries. The father of one of my mother's children (she
was a teacher, incidentally) killed a Kodiak bear who had
suffered terrible injuries. Rifle bullet wounds and three
revolver bullets in the gristle of his jaw - Old Groaner,
1. - Trapper, 0. I doubt if any other Kodiaks nursed Old
Groaner. Cheers john GW

[Bob Keeter]

in article BJJx8.41392$t65.24054@nwrddc02.gnilink.net, John
H. Wilson at
j.gissw@verizon.net wrote on 4/24/02 9:20 PM:

Snippage. . . . . .

>
> Hugh Glass received no care and survived terrible injuries.

And quite probably far more of Hugh's buddies ended up
bear bait! ;-)

But you are right, taking on a griz with a hunting knife is
not the healthiest of hobbies.

> The father of one of my mother's children (she was a
> teacher, incidentally) killed a Kodiak bear who had suffered
> terrible injuries. Rifle bullet wounds and three revolver
> bullets in the gristle of his jaw - Old Groaner,
> 1. - Trapper, 0. I doubt if any other Kodiaks nursed Old
> Groaner.

Yep. A big griz or kodiak can absorb a lot of punishment. On
the other hand, a few pistol bullets to the jaw and even a
rifle shot into the shoulder will not completely imobilize a
bear (a lot of less fortunate "Hugh Glass"'s have proven
that!). In the case of a 8 ton or more bipedal dinosaur, to
have the fibia completely sheared with the bone ends displaced
and passing each other. . . . . . . Dont see a T.rex pulling
itself along by virtue of those relatively puny front "arms"
do you? A bear with one leg out of business is going to have
to satisfy his hunger on the salad bar, or with some well aged
meat, but he can get to food and water. A t.rex with a
shattered femur is not going anywhere!

Regards bk

[Zolota]

Bob Keeter <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B8EE383B.C399%rkeeter@earthlink.net...
> in article BJJx8.41392$t65.24054@nwrddc02.gnilink.net, John
> H. Wilson at
> j.gissw@verizon.net wrote on 4/24/02 9:20 PM:
>
> Snippage. . . . . .

Why is a natural accident not being considered? We have all
see rocks with very straight edges, they are common in some
outcrops. If our Neaderthal happened to be standing under a
cliff and even a small rock fell any distance it would easily
shatter bone plus form a linear break. It's not so unlikely as
it sounds if he was below another climber. Also, he could have
been the object that fell and landed on a sharp edge. I know
of a geologist that died when he fell a couple of meters down
a road embankment and skewered himself on a small sappling,
severing an artery.

Z

[John H. Wi]

"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B8EE383B.C399%rkeeter@earthlink.net...
> in article BJJx8.41392$t65.24054@nwrddc02.gnilink.net, John
> H. Wilson at
> j.gissw@verizon.net wrote on 4/24/02 9:20 PM:
.
>
> > The
>
In the case of a 8 ton or more bipedal
> dinosaur, to have the fibia completely sheared with the
> bone ends
displaced
> and passing each other. . . . . . . Dont see a T.rex pulling
> itself along by virtue of those relatively puny front "arms"
> do you? A bear with one
leg
> out of business is going to have to satisfy his hunger on
> the salad bar,
or
> with some well aged meat, but he can get to food and water.
> A t.rex with
a
> shattered femur is not going anywhere!
>
Don't imagine so, unless it is pretty good at hopping on
one leg.. Might have some difficulty getting up to hop in
any case. Of course, it might take an 8 ton animal a
while to die, provided some water around. Depends on
whether it was warm blooded or not. Cheers John GW

[Philip Dei]

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:46:30 GMT, "John H. Wilson"
<j.gissw@verizon.net> wrote:

> In the case of a 8 ton or more bipedal
>> dinosaur, to have the fibia completely sheared with the
>> bone ends
>displaced
>> and passing each other. . . . . . . Dont see a T.rex
>> pulling itself along by virtue of those relatively puny
>> front "arms" do you? A bear with one
>leg
>> out of business is going to have to satisfy his hunger on
>> the salad bar,
>or
>> with some well aged meat, but he can get to food and water.
>> A t.rex with
>a
>> shattered femur is not going anywhere!
>>
> Don't imagine so, unless it is pretty good at hopping on
> one leg.. Might have some difficulty getting up to hop
> in any case. Of course, it might take an 8 ton animal a
> while to die, provided some water around. Depends on
> whether it was warm blooded or not.

Talk about being glad I killfiled Bob.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Ejudy]

Bob Keeter wrote:
>
> Once I offered you the opportunity to be my conscience, to
> decide if a jab or a stab from your buddy, PHilip, was
> worthy of response. You declined. If you are saying ex post
> facto that somehow I was not reasonable in responding to
> good ole PHilip in this case? If so, again I offer you the
> right of arbitration, not mediation or anything less
> powerful; simple all-powerful, deity-like arbitration of my
> actions.

May i suggest a very accomplished psychiatrist?

> What you say goes! I will leave poor ole Philip to his own
> devices, untouched by my unclean typing fingers and evil
> vile thoughts, until YOU say he deserves a spanking for
> socially unacceptable behavior.

I'd like to see "The Rock" throw you off the cliff. No, on
second thought, i would just like to see "The Rock" walking
around with some nice hollywood costume knives and swords
with you nowhere in the same hemisphere..... No, i would have
liked to have been his makeup artist or costume fitter
(yeah!) for that silly recent movie..... measure here and
under there ;-)) Hmmmmm...this is gonna take a long
time.....lets see if there's enough freedom of movement in
the costume...hmmm etc...

Forgot what we were talking about...nevermind....hehe....

e~rockess~judy

[Bob Keeter]

in article buticu48u168qpmse60j4coi1qp3a7cnmm@4ax.com, Philip
Deitiker at pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu wrote on 4/26/02 10:53 AM:

> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:46:30 GMT, "John H. Wilson"
> <j.gissw@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> In the case of a 8 ton or more bipedal
>>> dinosaur, to have the fibia completely sheared with the
>>> bone ends
>> displaced
>>> and passing each other. . . . . . . Dont see a T.rex
>>> pulling itself along by virtue of those relatively puny
>>> front "arms" do you? A bear with one
>> leg
>>> out of business is going to have to satisfy his hunger on
>>> the salad bar,
>> or
>>> with some well aged meat, but he can get to food and
>>> water. A t.rex with
>> a
>>> shattered femur is not going anywhere!
>>>
>> Don't imagine so, unless it is pretty good at hopping on
>> one leg.. Might have some difficulty getting up to hop in
>> any case. Of course, it might take an 8 ton animal a while
>> to die, provided some water around. Depends on whether it
>> was warm blooded or not.
>
> Talk about being glad I killfiled Bob.
>
>

Tsk, tsk tsk. Looks like you've been sniffing the
formaldehyde again.

One small bit of warning, even in the USAF they make people
use oxygen over 9k ft. From where I sit, that Ivory Tower of
yours looks downright hypoxic! 8-)

kma, out! bk

[John H. Wi]

"Philip Deitiker" <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
news:buticu48u168qpmse60j4coi1qp3a7cnmm@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:46:30 GMT, "John H. Wilson"
> <j.gissw@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > In the case of a 8 ton or more bipedal
>
> Talk about being glad I killfiled Bob.
>
>
Don't follow you - thought his point about Sue was well
taken, though I'm very dubious about one tyrannosaurus rex
feeding another. Somewhat irrelevant to men, though, since
man is social. Still, will admit rather a problem why Sue
survived after breaking her leg. Cheers John GW

[Ejudy]

Bob Keeter wrote:

> Oh, Philip just DOES not like to deal with the ugly,
> ignorant, unwashed, politically warped, ethically decrepit,
> intellectually challenged, and utterly un-worshipful pesants
> like me. Its totally unthinkable and unforgivable that any
> of us irreverant and disrespectful subhumans are able to pay
> an ISP and actually read/post in such a hallowed and
> sanctified inner sanctum as SAP! 8-) Who knows what might
> happen to the "ivory tower" if someone like me is allowed to
> breath air much less type! 8-)
>
> Isnt that right there Philip, ole buddy, ole pal! 8-)
>
> ANYWAY, I certainly do not consider it my loss! Matter of
> fact, given the circumstances and the source, rather
> proud of the honor and the fact that he seems so driven
> to brag about the fact! ;-) Makes me warm inside just to
> know that such an all knowing, all seeing,
> self-proclaimed deity cares!
>
> Hehehehehehehe! Perhaps I do get carried away. . . . . . . .
> 8-))))) But that, fortunatly is "another story"!
>
> Anyway, enough of that rot. . . . . .
>
Is it possible, bob, since i see you get ~set off~ rather
easily, and regularly, not to mention predictably ;-), that
maybe you suffer from some sort of brain encumberment which
blasts you into these weird, ice shattering little hissy fits?
Best not to have guns in the closets when one has a certain
temper-typing disposition.....

Maybe in the end, we will all become deities, after all is
said and done and the archives survive our physical demise, so
it may just be a good idea to strive towards exemplary
behavior ;-) And don't just consider this as merely one deity
shaking a monitory finger at another as we are here on these
rocky slopes enjoying the views and watching our footing so as
to not cause landslides and even the occasional deity over the
cliff scenario as its a long way down to PHUOMP! onto the
rocks below... Anyway just a thought ;^] (were you thinking
you were roped in? i don't recall anybody using beeners and
lining the group do you? Probably best not to imagine the
gorey possibilities in too much detail....).

ejudy hehe.... oops!

[Bob Keeter]

in article 46e43451.0204271821.5a0edd7b@posting.google.com,
ejudy at ejudy@my-deja.com wrote on 4/27/02 9:21 PM:

> Bob Keeter wrote:
>>
>> Once I offered you the opportunity to be my conscience, to
>> decide if a jab or a stab from your buddy, PHilip, was
>> worthy of response. You declined. If you are saying ex post
>> facto that somehow I was not reasonable in responding to
>> good ole PHilip in this case? If so, again I offer you the
>> right of arbitration, not mediation or anything less
>> powerful; simple all-powerful, deity-like arbitration of my
>> actions.
>
> May i suggest a very accomplished psychiatrist?
>

8-) Sounds like overkill to me! We are talking a really
simple and uncomplicated subject here and frankly in this
particular case it aint rocket science! A merely servicable
one will be more than adequate! ;-) Save the really good,
high powered shrinks for the "royalty". . . .but then would
that be the psychiatrist or the proctologist or would you
really need both? ;-)

>
>> What you say goes! I will leave poor ole Philip to his own
>> devices, untouched by my unclean typing fingers and evil
>> vile thoughts, until YOU say he deserves a spanking for
>> socially unacceptable behavior.
>
> I'd like to see "The Rock" throw you off the cliff. No, on
> second thought, i would just like to see "The Rock" walking
> around with some nice hollywood costume knives and swords
> with you nowhere in the same hemisphere.....

8-) We agree on SOMETHING! Actually, after this evening the
same hemisphere is probably too close. Had the opportunity to
watch a couple of the inner Jovian satelites come out from
behind the planet! made my evening! Saturn was bright but sort
of low on the horizon and there was a bit of haze obscuring
detail. Could make out the rings and a couple of moons that
was about it! The mosquitos were even in cold storage! 8-)

Oh wait a minute, this was the "I love the Rock" newsgroup and
I dragged it off to the outer planets. . . .just cant keep on
topic. Faulty neurons, misrouted synapses, bad upbringing and
acquired habits of old age make a terrible mix! 8-))) Still I
think that the view from a low orbit around Europa would be
infinitely preferable to scoping out mere "pebbles"!

> No, i would have liked to have been his makeup artist or
> costume fitter (yeah!) for that silly recent movie.....

Or better, his accountant!

> measure here and under there ;-)) Hmmmmm...this is gonna
> take a long time.....lets see if there's enough freedom of
> movement in the costume...hmmm etc...
>

Lemme guess, you went to see "Bambi" huh? Somehow I think that
the real Scorpion might have been a little bit less "hunky"
and a little bit more real than even the Rock's Hollywood
persona (not to mention his WWF facade!). But then back then
they didnt have agents and publicity hounds!

> Forgot what we were talking about...nevermind....hehe....
>
>
> e~rockess~judy

Oh, please missy Ejudy, dont whip me! PLEEEEEEEEASE dont whip
me! I'll be a good little lap dog and only go off and bark at
the boogie man when you say so!

8-))))))))))))))) , yep thats a ROTFLMAO!

Woof-woof at the watch! 8-)

Regards bk

[Bob Keeter]

in article Flky8.3081$iJ.624@nwrddc02.gnilink.net, John
H. Wilson at
j.gissw@verizon.net wrote on 4/26/02 5:17 PM:

>
> "Philip Deitiker" <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message
> news:buticu48u168qpmse60j4coi1qp3a7cnmm@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:46:30 GMT, "John H. Wilson"
>> <j.gissw@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In the case of a 8 ton or more bipedal
>>
>> Talk about being glad I killfiled Bob.
>>
>>
> Don't follow you - thought his point about Sue was well
> taken, though I'm very dubious about one tyrannosaurus rex
> feeding another. Somewhat irrelevant to men, though, since
> man is social. Still, will admit rather a problem why Sue
> survived after breaking her leg. Cheers John GW
>
>

Oh, Philip just DOES not like to deal with the ugly, ignorant,
unwashed, politically warped, ethically decrepit,
intellectually challenged, and utterly un-worshipful pesants
like me. Its totally unthinkable and unforgivable that any of
us irreverant and disrespectful subhumans are able to pay an
ISP and actually read/post in such a hallowed and sanctified
inner sanctum as SAP! 8-) Who knows what might happen to the
"ivory tower" if someone like me is allowed to breath air much
less type! 8-)

Isnt that right there Philip, ole buddy, ole pal! 8-)

ANYWAY, I certainly do not consider it my loss! Matter of
fact, given the circumstances and the source, rather proud of
the honor and the fact that he seems so driven to brag about
the fact! ;-) Makes me warm inside just to know that such an
all knowing, all seeing, self-proclaimed deity cares!

Hehehehehehehe! Perhaps I do get carried away. . . . . . . .
8-))))) But that, fortunatly is "another story"!

Anyway, enough of that rot. . . . . .

Actually, there are also trackways, somewhere in England IIRC,
that seem to suggest that a smaller tyranosaurid-like dino
might well have been a "pack hunter" as well. The Deinonychus
line, aka the"Raptors", are generally accepted to have been
pack hunters, although we might be pressed to find a lot of
evidence of the fact. (its mostly based on the magnum-caliber,
big-game-killing claws on these rather small, for dinos
anyway, carnivores! Hard to imagine a solitary carnivore of
that size needing to take down prey that would have been very
much threatened by "the claw"! Now if there were a BUNCH of
hungry little toothy mouths to feed. . . . . . . . .)

A single lion is definitely able to bring down an antelope,
but a pride of lions does it much easier, and more frequently!
Early hominid social behavior would have been a great boon in
any conversion to hunter/gatherer from simple gatherer. The
teamwork would have made the hunting much easier for a
definitely non-predator-adapted hominid. (i.e. no claws, no
fangs, not even very fast!) A little bit of brains, a club or
two, with some numbers cooperating, and that gazelle starts
looking like more and more like a steady lunch ticket! ;-)

Hows that little hook for redirecting the thread back into
paleoanthro and away from dinosaurs, extinct and
otherwise! ;-)

Regards bk

[Bob Keeter]

in article 46e43451.0204270828.3c690307@posting.google.com,
ejudy at ejudy@my-deja.com wrote on 4/27/02 11:28 AM:

> Bob Keeter wrote:
>
Snippage. . . .
>>
> Is it possible, bob, since i see you get ~set off~ rather
> easily, and regularly, not to mention predictably ;-), that
> maybe you suffer from some sort of brain encumberment which
> blasts you into these weird, ice shattering little hissy
> fits? Best not to have guns in the closets when one has a
> certain temper-typing disposition.....
>

Well, lets see. . . . . . Brain encumberments, yep. Got my
share. Any of them prone to spontaneous combustion? Nope. Dont
think so. USUALLY those kind of people end up with a nice long
police record. So. . .must be mostly benign. One encumberment
Ive noticed I most decidedly do not have, and that is a
tendency to sit back and "take it" or for that matter let
others "take it". That USUALLY does lead to a little bit of a
reversion to one of our more head knocking mindsets from the
past. Guess its just one of those diseases of small minds and
common people. 8-)

By the way, there is an interesting documentary (vice
hollywood screenplay) coming up, I believe this Sunday on the
PBS covering the real life John Nash. Very good mathematician,
but Im afraid that you might find not all that plesant of a
person in ways that might amaze you. Somehow I think that he
might be very pained to think that his "win-win" game theory
was being applied to political/social issues since as I read
the article, seems he had a much more basic, i.e. one that
even I could understand, mindset; even if I violently disagree
with his conclusion.

> Maybe in the end, we will all become deities, after all is
> said and done and the archives survive our physical demise,
> so it may just be a good idea to strive towards exemplary
> behavior ;-)

We may all strive toward being deities! Last I checked though
is is usually frowned upon by even the worshipful if one
unilaterially decrees oneself to have achieved that goal!

> And don't just consider this as merely one deity shaking a
> monitory finger at another as we are here on these rocky
> slopes enjoying the views and watching our footing so as to
> not cause landslides and even the occasional deity over the
> cliff scenario as its a long way down to PHUOMP! onto the
> rocks below...

I have no delusions of reaching nirvana, godhood, or even some
mystical enlightnemnt. I prefer a much less illustrious role.
On a good day, perhaps, Im the stupid, uneducated, unclean and
uncouth little street urchin that doesnt know any better than
to point out that the Emperor is naked! 8-)

> Anyway just a thought ;^] (were you thinking you were
> roped in?

Me roped in? Nah. . . .Dont think so. Roping is one of those
Texas things isnt it! Just responded to a post. We all have
the right to read and post and I hold that right very
precious, not just to my own purposes but also to the fact
that you needed to step in to "defend" poor ole Philip. You
see, I would even defend your right to do that, otherwise it
would be a bit hypocritical now wouldnt it? That is another
one of those many brain flaws and personality disorders that I
try very hard to avoid and suppress in myself, even if not
totally eliminate. ;-)

> i don't recall anybody using beeners and lining the group do
> you? Probably best not to imagine the gorey possibilities in
> too much detail....).
>

Once I offered you the opportunity to be my conscience, to
decide if a jab or a stab from your buddy, PHilip, was worthy
of response. You declined. If you are saying ex post facto
that somehow I was not reasonable in responding to good ole
PHilip in this case? If so, again I offer you the right of
arbitration, not mediation or anything less powerful; simple
all-powerful, deity-like arbitration of my actions. What you
say goes! I will leave poor ole Philip to his own devices,
untouched by my unclean typing fingers and evil vile thoughts,
until YOU say he deserves a spanking for socially unacceptable
behavior. You dont even have to apply my standards or any
other standards but your own! I trust that your judgement,
when called directly to task, will be more than adequate to
keep me from stirring the pot unjustifiably and at the same
time, not to don that very ugly, uncomfortable and ill-sized
shoe of hypocracy.

Go for it! What can it hurt? 8-)

Regards bk