Ainu, Origin of

[Philip Dei]

I really hadn't intended to spend much time more on mtDNA,
but since the blowhard killfile material, YPARK, got a big
burr up all into his ass and couldn't get it loose no matter
how ferociously he tried, I decided to put my sniffer
program to work.

The program basically gives me a list of the 20 or so most
closely related sequences within the region of 16125 to 16392.

Gisele, who seems alot more dedicated to studying HV1 than
insulting people, ahem, kindly gave me the highlighted
alignments, which I selected sequences from to sniff. The
sniffer compares a sequence the 1900 nonredundant sequences of
mtHV1 submitted prior to 2000 plus the sequences that Gisele
has given to myself by email as aligmments,the majority of
these are Japanese. It displays these differences from my own
derived human concensus, and the difference of the query
sequence to 'hits'. ?marks in sequence are treated as
homologies, so matches with excessive numbers of ? marks in
'variant' positions are ignored.

Here are some of the results.

Ainu66 11ME deep. (meaning each difference with the following
other sequences is worth about 9000 years.

1. Japan 1575 3 differences
2. Switzerland-Oberwalls 622 4 differences
3. Chile-Chilean 1321 4 differences
4. Japan 1565 4 differences
5. Austrian/Fin/Karelian 618/674 4 differences
6. Korean/Turkic 1582/1639 4 differences
7. Switzerland_Oberwalls 623 5 differences
8. Switzerland_tessin 649 5 differences
9. Switzerland_tessin 652 5 differences
10. Russia-Karelian 5 differences

Ainu03 is descended from Ainu66

Ainu 07 7 me deep each difference worth 17,000 years
11. Japan 1565 4 differences

Ainu 178 (each difference worth 9000 years)
12. Nigeria-Fulbe 5 differences
13. Finland-Saami 827 5
14. Russia-Karelian 873 5

Ainu79 See cladogram 2 of
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/mtDNAgeneconv.html 2nd
example Ainu79 is 1 ME off the 100 ky old lateral. It is a
member of this unique derivative african clad.

Ainu40 (because of an obvious reverse mutation this allele is
difficult to place)
15. German 759, Karelian 867, India-Havik 1388 1 difference
16. Switzerland-Unterwall 655 2 difference
17. Indian-Mukri 1390 2 difference
18. Japan 1564 2 difference
19. Cantonese (also multiple reversions) 2 differences
20. Nigeria-Kanuri, Turkic, England/Wht, Switzerland-Alps 2
differences
21. England wht(2) 2 differences.

Ainu10
22. Japan 1564 1 difference
23. Russian Karelian 876 2 differences
24. Apache 1202 2 differences
25. Nu-Chu-Nu 1213 2 differences
26. Taiwan-Ami 1718 2 differences
27. Vanatu-Island 1915 2 differences.
28. German 759, Karelian 867, India-Havik 1388 2
29. Han/Evenk/Japan 2 differences
30. India-Havik(2) 2 differences

Conclusions. YPARK is an ass (obvious, but . . . . .) Gisele,
if you want to continue to discuss these sequences we need to
migrate over to the PaleoAnthro group in Yahoo, where the
discussion is moderated and where it is likely to be more
appreciated better than the trampled pearls around here.
Otherwise we move this to email.

Of the Ainu hits that are not Native american, Japanese or
Koreans. Switzerland had the majority of hits, Karelians come
a close second. Very few hits from indonesia, in fact fewer
hits than from africa.

Many of you here might think, geeze, this is interesting. I
would comment no geeze its pretty damn obvious. Ainu look like
caucasians, have a number of features similar to the people
who radiated from north of the black sea after 7000 kya. These
ainu are linked to a culture that entered Japan from the
north, a culture which is similar to that culture that entered
the new world via siberia or proximal maritime routes.

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Ejudy]

(Philip Deitiker) wrote:

> Gisele, if you want to continue to discuss these sequences
> we need to migrate over to the PaleoAnthro group in Yahoo,
> where the discussion is moderated and where it is likely to
> be more appreciated better than the trampled pearls around
> here. Otherwise we move this to email.
>
> Of the Ainu hits that are not Native american, Japanese or
> Koreans. Switzerland had the majority of hits, Karelians
> come a close second. Very few hits from indonesia, in fact
> fewer hits than from africa.
>
> Many of you here might think, geeze, this is interesting.
> I would comment no geeze its pretty damn obvious. Ainu
> look like caucasians, have a number of features similar to
> the people who radiated from north of the black sea after
> 7000 kya. These ainu are linked to a culture that entered
> Japan from the north, a culture which is similar to that
> culture that entered the new world via siberia or proximal
> maritime routes.
>

This has been a really fine set of postings between you and
Gisele. Do you think it would be at all useful to edit and
archive, for the paleoanthro group, the most worthwhile parts
of the posts to back up the conversation if you will be moving
it there? I hope you will move it there. I would be willing to
try to piece it together and then let someone look at it and
then put it over in the file in paleoanthro if anyone would
like that. Or, at least maybe we should keep it referenced as
to where it is in the google archive if you continue over
there. Paleoanthro can be found at this URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paleoanthro/

Thank you. ejudy

[Ejudy]

When using DNA is there much chance to use "older" DNA so you
could get less global mixing from modern travel?

Like these inca mummies: http://crater.nationalgeographic.com-
/news/2002/04/0410_020417_incamummies.html

I would think you would run into cultural taboos all over the
world about digging up graves of ancestors then submitting
them to DNA tests but doesn't it seem like a reasonable way to
get useful samples? I bet all around the world there are 400
year old bones. Think of the catacombs! And then when you talk
about the ainu and the jomon are there old bones which could
add more to this investigation?

Or do you get alot less from old DNA than from new? I guess
that's my specific question.

thanks again, ejudy

[Ypark]

pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote in message
news:<3e9f8f82.10151618@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> Ainu look like caucasians, have a number of features similar
> to the people who radiated from north of the black sea after
> 7000 kya.

This is before human-chimpanzee split(7000K = 7 million).
Are you saying that caucasians are chimps or something
equivalent?

Y. Park

[Philip Dei]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:23:36 GMT, pdeitik@worldnet.att.net
(Philip Deitiker) wrote:

>people who radiated from north of the black sea after 7000

Everyone else here probably figured out the error, and as for
what YPARK beleives I couldn't give a rats ass, but meant 7
kya not 7000 kya. I am sure the anal retents around here have
blood screaming out of their eyes, and as those here not I
really couldn't give a damn.

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Philip Dei]

On 18 Apr 2002 18:21:52 -0700, yparkrhad@yahoo.com
(ypark) wrote:

>pdeitik@worldnet.att.net (Philip Deitiker) wrote in message
>news:<3e9f8f82.10151618@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
>> Ainu look like caucasians, have a number of features
>> similar to the people who radiated from north of the black
>> sea after 7000 kya.
>
> This is before human-chimpanzee split(7000K = 7 million).
> Are you saying that caucasians are chimps or something
> equivalent?
>
Normally that would be considered a typo, but if it will make
you go away then, yes for you 7 million years.

7 million years ago the Ainu got on Jumbo jets from africa
and traveled to northern Japan, avoiding all points in
between and any contact what-so-ever, except leaving an
ingraved stone underneath your pillow proclaiming they have
no relationship whatsoever to caucasians despite their
obvious appear and your racism.

Does that make your feel better, now go to the little medicine
cabinet, yes the one in the corner. Yes, now open the bottle
called Prozac, take a glass of water, right, open mouth,
swallow pill and drink water, then go to bed and it will all
be better in the morning. night-night.

Philip <pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu

[Ejudy]

ejudy@my-deja.com (ejudy) wrote >
> This has been a really fine set of postings between you and
> Gisele. Do you think it would be at all useful to edit and
> archive, for the paleoanthro group, the most worthwhile
> parts of the posts to back up the conversation if you will
> be moving it there? I hope you will move it there. I would
> be willing to try to piece it together and then let someone
> look at it and then put it over in the file in paleoanthro
> if anyone would like that. Or, at least maybe we should keep
> it referenced as to where it is in the google archive if you
> continue over there. Paleoanthro can be found at this URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paleoanthro/
>
> Thank you. ejudy

a calliche encrusted tower there?

It really doesn't matter for me.......... easier to breath
here on the outside especially when one hears folks like the
ypark who cares more about spelling and gramatical mistakes
than keeping nazism from rising from the grave and
disintegrating the connections of trust. I'd say its more than
a mere prozac problem. People like than tarnish the whole
field of molecular tinkerers with their utter depravity of
social consciousness.

Sorta like when i used to be serious about martial arts.. the
best teachers wouldn't allow the talented yet mentally
dangerous and depraved individual's thru the filtering system.
It is a reflection on the teacher and a shame for the society.
One teacher i know's very talented star pupil killed his wife
senselessly with the tools given by the foolish teacher. The
~best~ teachers do not let these mistakes happen. There may be
a price we all may have to pay. Its not just an arrogance
problem....

We are all merely travelers awash momentarily on a
common shore...

;-) ejudy

[Philip Dei]

On 19 Apr 2002 09:31:23 -0700, ejudy@my-deja.com (ejudy)
wrote:

>One teacher i know's very talented star pupil killed his wife
>senselessly with the tools given by the foolish teacher. The
>~best~ teachers do not let these mistakes happen. There may
>be a price we all may have to pay. Its not just an arrogance
>problem....

When a privilidge is abused, it's retracted arrogance or not.
At this point in time I have more people in my kill-file than
actually post here routinely. A number of people are
borderline killfile material.

Arrogance here is that Gisele has spend a good amount of time,
I don't know for what reason, educating herself about
evolution and studying HV1. Whether or not she has anything
remarkable to add is another issue, but the point is that when
the group goes to the point in which someones presentations,
in good faith and good study are trashed by malcontents, sort
of trivialized by more or less disinterested lip service, it
is probably time to move the discussion elsewhere. Arrogance
here is that most of the folks in this NG won't lift a finger
before mouthing off about something they refuse to study.

She has apparently located 5000 HVR sequences which can be
added to the database of 2000, many of these are from NE asia
and the new world, so if anyone is interested there will
probably be a new site created for these and some discussion
of this in PaleoAnthro-L.

I think everyone here can learn a lesson about diligence
versus trivializing mouth-offs. In the long run what you say
will be alot more appreciated if the amount of work and study
you put into something than the verbosity of your commentary.
Admittedly when this discussion began 2 or 3 years ago here,
some of the statements were awkward. However, the power of
ones data eventually provides a foundation for serious study
and that can only be arrived at, by at times, some serious
hair pulling work.

Genuflectation at your favorite literature like YPARK has
demostrates a degree of concretized thinking typical of low
level or lesser trained scientist out there, pumpoing their
own lesser work or the work of someone they idolize. I am by
no means an expert in molecular evolution, but when I can sit
down with most papers and point out several obvious and fatal
flaws, flaws that attempt to conceal a political agenda, then
it means that one does not have to be the leading expert to
make a contribution. However, mouth-offs and critique with no
effort will not, in the end run be consider a contribution.

It seems to me that the membership of PaleoAnthro and the
moderation suffices now that this group is likely to become
obsolete in whatever function in might have. This group is as
important as its contributers want it to be, if the
contributers think that it is a playground or muse, then that
is what the group will become.

Philip [pdeitik at bcm.tmc.edu]
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth

[Ejudy]

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
<ogu0cuohvo0i6c0mkdcrnu1jpj35fmi2ob@4ax.com> :
>On 19 Apr 2002 09:31:23 -0700, ejudy@my-deja.com
>(ejudy) wrote:
>
>>One teacher i know's very talented star pupil killed his
>>wife senselessly with the tools given by the foolish
>>teacher. The ~best~ teachers do not let these mistakes
>>happen. There may be a price we all may have to pay. Its not
>>just an arrogance problem....
>
>When a privilidge is abused, it's retracted arrogance or not.
>At this point in time I have more people in my kill-file than
>actually post here routinely. A number of people are
>borderline killfile material.
>
>Arrogance here is that Gisele has spend a good amount of
>time, I don't know for what reason, educating herself about
>evolution and studying HV1. Whether or not she has anything
>remarkable to add is another issue, but the point is that
>when the group goes to the point in which someones
>presentations, in good faith and good study are trashed by
>malcontents, sort of trivialized by more or less
>disinterested lip service, it is probably time to move the
>discussion elsewhere. Arrogance here is that most of the
>folks in this NG won't lift a finger before mouthing off
>about something they refuse to study.
>

I was referring only to the ypark jerk as as a worse than
arrogant human who may have the ability to do very bad things
with his talent. I don't like it that our education system
allows folks with disasterous minds to achieve high degrees.
They may get more dangerous. You and Gisele are wonderful with
your work and discussions. They are worth alot for anybody
studying this area whether they know it or not. And there is
actually very little i could even hope to contribute because
this is not in any way my field of study or where my talents
are. I am a complete outsider. But i am interested enough to
try to follow the reasoning and i enjoy the people who work
together in the discussions. I have enjoyed trying to
contribute but i know its worthless as far as what you are
involved in. If i was to take what i learned here out and
interact with kids maybe i could contribute to their doing
well in science or maybe not. Please don't imagine my
criticism was for you or gisele. But you may not have
recognised i was trying to offer a contribution in my earlier
post. But nevermind cuz i don't think its understood. Its
always been difficult for me to use the way i communicate to
make sense to a scientifically minded group anyway. Maybe i
should try to think alot and talk alot less.

I just don't like that ypark guy and what he seems to
represent. And as far as you go, phil, i imagine i have been
killfiled probably for a few years so it is no big deal. ;-)

I remember when you first noticed me a couple years ago i
think you almost cussed my head off. ;-) you misinterpreted
me then and you probably will always. I said then as now, you
are the best read out there but you might do well with a bit
of editing once in a while ;-))) But its just a drop of water
in a big ocean so its ok. I'll read your stuff and keep my
mouth shut...

ejudy