[BFL] More carby ?'s

[tonil]

I was in the gym this morning and talking to one of the trainers there. He was very positive and had a lot of great things to say, HOWEVER . . . he bashed my beloved Atkins WOE and did say 'fat makes you fat'. Argh! However he did make some good points, I just want to make sure I am on the right track . . .
He suggested I eat a low glycemic carb meal before weightlifting (a bowl of oatmeal) and drink something high carb right after. I understand the preworkout carbs, but not the after workout. I have done so well with Atkins and am truly terrified of carbs especially simple carbs. Since I am following a modified Atkins with lower fat and more low glycemic carbs, I don't want to mess up. What do y'all think? I tell you, the nutrition part of this is harder than the workouts! -- Toni

[Natrushka]

Toni, I'm sure you've heard the saying 'if it's not broke, don't fix it". It applies here. If what you're doing is providing the results you wanted then leave it be. Information overload can mess with your head - big time.

You'll find that everyone at the gym will have an opinion - some will be more vocal than others and some will be more acredited than others ;) If your plan is working, it is working.

The post workout carbs are to quelsh the cortisol that is produced when your body has been stressed. Carbs produce glucose which creates insulin, which renders your body anabolic (muscle growing). Cortisol is catabolic (muscle wasting) as is working out. By producing a controlled insulin spike you're setting your body to muscle building ASAP and helping it shuttle the amino acids from the protein into the muscle.

I've done BFL both ways - low carbs and higher carbs (90-100g) and I've grown muscle both ways. By eating low carb (30-40g) and high fat I lost more fat and maintained muscle mass. It all depends on your goals.

Nat

[tokenyanke]

I've been checking out a really good website on natural bodybuilding and find the same thing... they bash the LC lifestyle... or at least what they call the "very low carb" WOE. So, I skip over that and just figure they probably have never even tried the LC WOE and have no idea.

As long as I'm still feeling good doing it "my way", I don't intend to change.
:daze:

[Inigo]

Originally posted by tokenyanke
I've been checking out a really good website on natural bodybuilding and find the same thing... they bash the LC lifestyle... or at least what they call the "very low carb" WOE. So, I skip over that and just figure they probably have never even tried the LC WOE and have no idea.

As long as I'm still feeling good doing it "my way", I don't intend to change.
:daze:

Well, most bodybuilding sites bash "LC" diets because LC diets alone simply don't lead to the well muscled bodies that are the norm in bodybuilding circles. The problem is that most people that come to LC diets come wanting to lose fat. Plain and simple. How often do you see a person jumping into a LC diet to gain muscle (which burns away fat in the long run)? I've never seen a muscular, healthy person come up and say they were on Atkins... or any other "LC" diet for that matter. If you take on the other hand how many people step directly towards bodybuilding and don't focus on the "LC" aspect of losing fat, they usually achieve excellent results and burn massive amounts of fat without severely restricting their carbs... at least healthy low GI carbs. Think about it. :)

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Inigo
The problem is that most people that come to LC diets come wanting to lose fat. Plain and simple.


This is not true, Inigo. You are making generalizations on a subject that you don't know that much about - it's dangerous. Take a look through our Health forum - you'll see why many of us are here: Cholesterol/Heart Disease, Crohn's and IBS, Arthritis, Thyroid Disease, Diabetes, PCOS, Fybro, S.A.D., Candida, Hypoglycemia, and the biggie, Insulin Resistance.

I've never seen a muscular, healthy person come up and say they were on Atkins... or any other "LC" diet for that matter You just met one. Brenda (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55337). This kinda makes me chuckle, if you must know - the most common comment I get these days is "Do you ever look fit and healthy"

If you want to meet a few more of us muscular, healthy LCers check out:

My Gym Log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=484993#post484993) - I've been low carbing for a year now.
Marlaine's gym log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=485315#post485315) - M is coming up to her year anniversary on Atkins and has completed 2 Challenges
Judy's gym log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41274)
D's gym log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48587)
Lisaf's gym log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22665) - Lisa completed a BFL Challenge
Niky's Gym log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50580) - Niky is doing BSBW
KT's gym log (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41658) - KT is doing BodyRx

Nat

[Inigo]

Originally posted by Natrushka


This is not true, Inigo. You are making generalizations on a subject that you don't know that much about - it's dangerous. Take a look through our Health forum - you'll see why many of us are here: Cholesterol/Heart Disease, Crohn's and IBS, Arthritis, Thyroid Disease, Diabetes, PCOS, Fybro, S.A.D., Candida, Hypoglycemia, and the biggie, Insulin Resistance.



I am not speaking for people with medical conditions. If I were in the Healtl forum making these statements I could see your point.



You just met one. Brenda (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55337). This kinda makes me chuckle, if you must know - the most common comment I get these days is "Do you ever look fit and healthy"


Hmm.. I didn't really think BFL was a "LC diet". I know they stress eating low glycemic carbs for a stable metabolism, but other than that... ?? Resistance training is the most important factor in BFL... as it should be.



If you want to meet a few more of us muscular, healthy LCers check out:


Are there any photos in these logs? Not sure if I'm accessing the right thing here...

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Inigo
Resistance training is the most important factor in BFL... as it should be.

The most important part of any exercise program is always the nutrition. We do the BFL (or other program) exercise but use LC nutrition - because this is a LC forum and LC nutrition is what works for us.

I am not sure if there are pictures in the gym logs - they are usually posted in the members' journals.

Nat

[Natrushka]

Originally posted by Inigo
I am not speaking for people with medical conditions. If I were in the Healtl forum making these statements I could see your point.

You cannot separate the members doing BFL from their illnesses. Some of THEM - the women doing BFL - have PCOS, Thyroid diesease, diabetes, cholesterol problems.

I think you may be missing the point that LC came first - BFL exercise is something that was added to complement a LC WOL (way of life).

N

[itsjoyful]

Just have to jump in here....


YES!! I was very much low carb the whole time. If you click on my www, then you can look through my fitday food journal for the entire challenge.

Peace,
Brenda

edit~ the entire CKD area is low carb too. Just look at dan, et al.

[Natrushka]

In the event you missed it, Inigo, on the main forum page (where you have to register then access the BFL suforum) you see this:

Exercise Forums: Active Low-Carbers
Tips and discussion of exercise to help you lose/maintain your weight while low-carbing.

Nat

[HulaGirl]

Actually, compared to the way that most Amercian's eat, I'd say the Body For Life diet is pretty low carb.

Even Dr. Atkins in DANDR says that a vigorously active person can intake 90-100 g of carbs and potentially still lose weight. It depends on the individual.

Considering that a Big Mac, Fries, and a coke has over 300 grams of carbs, the 125 that I eat on the BFL plan per day still falls in the low carb category.

The Zone, BFL, SP, and Atkins Maintenance are all low carb eating plans. You just have to find the degree of low carb that works for you.

Agree?

And wow! This BFL forum finally heated up! Let me hear a shout out for all of the BFLers out there!

BFLing, and feelin' fine! :daze:

[tonil]

What is the 'T-Dawg' plan you are on? Sounds interesting!! -- Toni

[missatc]

Toni, I'm not Nat, but I can point you in the right direction. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do hot-links (I keep trying but they don't work), but I can tell you that starting about page 132 or 134 (or so) in Nat's journal you will find the info you are looking for on the "T-Dawg".

HTH,

[Inigo]

Originally posted by HulaGirl
Actually, compared to the way that most Amercian's eat, I'd say the Body For Life diet is pretty low carb.


I'd agree 100%. And also, compared to the way most Americans eat, BFL could be considered pretty high protein.... and high cardio, and high resistance training. Get my point?

However, it makes me shudder to hear someone compare the BFL program to the Atkins Diet. BFL has a sensible approach to carbohydrates and fats. BFL is teaching you the best types of foods to eat... where Atkins would have you almost completely removed from carbohydrates of any type... and I'm saying that I think this is dangerous. I see otherwise healthy people who might be 10-20-30 pounds jumping to Atkins because of the "success" stories. I'm here to say there are more sensible approaches to a LONG TERM healthy, lean, muscular body. If you are simply on the "Atkins diet", with little or no weight training, you are causing your metabolism to creep. Guess what. God forbid you ever start eating more that the spinkle of carbs you're currently on because you will balloon. Your metabolism is so low that your body is actually less "capable" of burning fat than before you started the Atkins diet.


The Zone, BFL, SP, and Atkins Maintenance are all low carb eating plans. You just have to find the degree of low carb that works for you.

Agree?


Sorry but I don't agree. The Zone and BFL should not be considered in the same light as the Atkins diet. Maybe it's just that we see "LC" in a different way. You refer to LC as it compares to the "normal" American way of eating. I refer to it as a program that disregards the complex nature of carbohydrates and tries to remove carbs from your diet... turning "carbohydrate" itself into a "bad" word.

I, for the most part, subscribe to the BFL program. There are other "programs" out there that seem very sensible and healthy as well. Atkins ain't one of 'em. I've read on this very forum where people are in "induction" for several weeks and MONTHS at a time. It's ridiculous people. Less than 20 grams of carbs a day? :thdown: :mad:

[HulaGirl]

I'm not sure that you've actually read DANDR. If you had, you would understand that 20 grams of carbs/day is what is recommended for the 2 week induction period. That two week period is used as an adjustment period, and is meant to help you get over carbohydrate cravings, and give your body a period of time to adjust to the low carb way of eating.

Atkins recommends adding in as many carbs as you can handle and still lose weight or maintain weight. To say that the Atkins plan is limited to 20 carbs/day, and that is what the plan is 100% about is uninformed.

I was not comparing BFL and Atkins. I was saying that even Atkins talks about upping your carb levels for vigorous exercise, and states that a person can go up to 100 grams of carbs/day and still lose weight. 100 grams/day is about what I find myself coming to on the BFL plan. Not comparing the plans....just comparing the carb level that works for me under the conditions of vigorous exercise.

I think that it is a common misconception for people to dismiss the Atkins diet because they do not realize that the diet goes so far beyond the 2 weeks of 20 g/day induction phase.

[Inigo]

Originally posted by HulaGirl
I'm not sure that you've actually read DANDR. If you had, you would understand that 20 grams of carbs/day is what is recommended for the 2 week induction period. That two week period is used as an adjustment period, and is meant to help you get over carbohydrate cravings, and give your body a period of time to adjust to the low carb way of eating.


Then why are so many people on this board staying at these low levels for months? And many here encourage this. Nat says that you can do just fine on 20-30 grams a day. PERIOD. She says that you don't need carbs for anything that a few vital organs. [ edited by Administrator. See **note** below ]


Atkins recommends adding in as many carbs as you can handle and still lose weight or maintain weight. To say that the Atkins plan is limited to 20 carbs/day, and that is what the plan is 100% about is uninformed.


I understand the "maintenance" period of this plan. I also think that this diet overall is the "easy way out" yet again. How many times have we seen this? Just about every Atkins dieter that I have known does not lift weights. I'm saying increase your weight training intensity and your lower GI carbs. You'll get the same effect, plus the benefits of a healthy amount of carbohydrate intake.


and still lose weight. 100 grams/day is about what I find myself coming to on the BFL plan. Not comparing the plans....just comparing the carb level that works for me under the conditions of vigorous exercise.


If you are doing the BFL to the "T" then you are performing intense weight training workouts. You get the advantage of being able to build your muscle while burning fat AND taking in a healthy amount of carbs to fuel your body. You are not the typical Atkins dieter that I am talking about.

[Trilbe]

Hey, y'all!

I've been following the recent BFL threads. And it sounds like we are all, really, on the same page here.

We all believe in:
• Monitoring our carbs
• Eating low-gi carbs
• Combining weight-training/resistance and cardio
• Eating 5 - 6 small meals per day

It seems that we've all refined our plans in one way or another. And I think we've all had to experiment to find the "right" level of carbs. I find Nat's posts very informative, and I've been reading them for quite a while. Nat has said that she increased her carb intake, somewhat, for her strenuous weight-training workouts. I think that's, pretty much, what Inigo is also saying. Maybe Inigo would recommend a different (higher) carb intake than Nat. But I think we all agree that controlling carbs, and modulating the insulin response, is vital to good health and to fat loss.

I've never heard anyone here tell anyone, exactly, what level of carbs that INDIVIDUAL should consume--with the exception of doing Dr. A's induction. Other than that, even Dr. A says that each individual has to find the carb-level that he/she will be able to handle.

So, anyhow, I've enjoyed the spirited debate here! But it, ultimately, sounds like we're all just saying the same thing in different ways...
;)

Trilbe

[TeriDoodle]

I've never understood why there are people who post on this LC site who are opposed to LCing. I wouldn't dream of running over to the WeightWatcher's website and posting my views over there....that would be a waste of my energy and would illustrate a total lack of respect. I respect that they are at least halfway intelligent and have done whatever research necessary to satisfy their own needs, knowing their own bodies, health issues and goals. I don't pretend to know THE ANSWER and then go try to convert everyone who doesn't believe like I do.

But then again, not everyone was raised the way I was.

[doreen T]

**Note from Administrator -

Flaming and personal attacks of our members is not permitted. This is clearly stated in the registration agreement. Persisting in such behavior will result in immediate removal of posting priveleges.

originally posted by Inigo
Nat says that you can do just fine on 20-30 grams a day. PERIOD. She says that you don't need carbs for anything that a few vital organs. THIS IS WRONG .. etc [ edited by Admin. ]...
Before you make such statements, it would be good to do some research first :) Nat is right because she HAS done her research. There are only a few tissues in the body that require glucose to function ... specifically anaerobic cells without mitochondria -- red blood cells and certain parts of the mid-brain. BTW, the cerebral cortex - which is the largest part of the human brain - functions very well on ketones. In general, the glucose requirement for these specific tissues is less than 20g per day.

It's well-known that the liver can make any necessary glucose from protein through the process of gluconeogenesis, so it's not biologically necessary to consume ANY carbohydrate at all. In the case of benign dietary ketosis the liver will use incoming protein from the diet to accomplish this task.

Doreen

[Inigo]

Originally posted by doreen T
**Note from Administrator -

Flaming and personal attacks of our members is not permitted. This is clearly stated in the registration agreement. Persisting in such behavior will result in immediate removal of posting priveleges.


Excuse me? Flaming and personal attacks? Are you saying that's what I'm doing? Simply disagreeing with someone means that I'm flaming them?

It's quite obvious in your message that you want to remove me anyway. Why not remove the misleading lie on the Duke research on the main page while you are at it?

[doreen T]

Originally posted by Inigo

Excuse me? Flaming and personal attacks? Are you saying that's what I'm doing? Simply disagreeing with someone means that I'm flaming them?

It's quite obvious in your message that you want to remove me anyway. Why not remove the misleading lie on the Duke research on the main page while you are at it? Disagreeing with someone is one thing. Stating that a member is wrong without providing any evidence to support that assertion, and then going on to slur that member's contributions to our forums is insulting and yes, inflammatory.

As for the "lie" on the website's main page ... while I cannot speak for the webmaster, I will say that I see nothing that is false or misleading. The Duke University study showed that Atkins' diet is effective for weight loss and for reducing blood lipid levels and blood pressure. That sounds healthy to me. The comments by the researchers about unknown long-term effects of ketosis and that further study is warranted is a standard disclaimer to journalists' questions at a press release. IMHO, the developers of new drugs, especially some of the cholesterol-lowering drugs should be held to such a standard .. but these drugs are released as "safe" WITHOUT further study, and with KNOWN untoward effects. Yet we are told that these are safe and effective. (Until the deaths are tallied, and the drug is finally pulled off the market ... Memories of Baycol)

Doreen

[Rosebud]

Originally posted by Inigo

I've never seen a muscular, healthy person come up and say they were on Atkins... or any other "LC" diet for that matter.

Check out Dan from Dan and Karen's Story. (http://www.lowcarb.ca/stories/story015.html)
Dan looks pretty muscular and healthy to me...

:rose:Rosebud:rose:

[judy130]

Well, that seems to be the end of this argument, anyway. And we haven't even bothered to mention the fact that Bill Phillips' company, EAS, is now manufacturing Very Low Carb products which are selling much better than his original high-carb ones (here at least!!) Maybe his BFLers are changing their thinking...??