Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or anyone else please help

[Haresh Ram]

Hello all,

I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression & General
Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had this for a
long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a week and have
opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed to the med-meds
available. I work out 3-4 times a week and will start Yoga
once a week now.

For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort - I
know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks before
I see any results or consdier dismissing it.

My symtoms are:

~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
throughout the day ~ Easily startled

In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any results
as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier and deeper
and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have sleep issues
before but couldnt wake up on time - always felt like I could
sleep my troubles away.

I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was wondering
if I should try this out along with SJW or wait for the 6
weeks of SJW before trying this.

Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for you ??

Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.

Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
appreciated.

Thansk & best regards,

Haresh

[Inlimbo]

St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
sugar pill for treating depression.

[Andrew Aus]

*shameless plug warning*

I`d suggest trying some sort of cognitive therapy in
addition to dietry/herbal/excercise treatments. Depression
is no fun and often
psychologists aren`t exactly helpful when it comes to
changework - but then that might just be a personal
prejudice.

Check out the depression links at: http://www.23NLPeople.com
that might help point you in the right direction.

Kindest regards,

Andrew Austin.
--
__________________________________
Reply address: AndrewAustin@nospam23NLPeople.com Remove
NOSPAM to reply.

NLP, Neurology, Schizophrenia: http://www.23NLPeople.com

Haresh Ramchandani <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed
> to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a week and
> will start Yoga once a week now.
>
> For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort -
> I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
>
> My symtoms are:
>
> ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> throughout the day ~ Easily startled
>
> In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any results
> as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier and deeper
> and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have sleep issues
> before but couldnt wake up on time - always felt like I
> could sleep my troubles away.
>
> I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was wondering
> if I should try this out along with SJW or wait for the 6
> weeks of SJW before trying this.
>
> Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for you
> ??
>
> Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
>
> Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thansk & best regards,
>
> Haresh

[Gym Bob]

add some L-phenylanine to your diet (free form amino acid).
The more you take, the more undepressed you are going to be.
Watch out for the rebound after large doses. careful....go
slowly..it works.

Hang in there!

"Haresh Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed
> to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a week and
> will start Yoga once a week now.
>
> For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort -
> I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
>
> My symtoms are:
>
> ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> throughout the day ~ Easily startled
>
> In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any results
> as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier and deeper
> and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have sleep issues
> before but couldnt wake up on time - always felt like I
> could sleep my troubles away.
>
> I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was wondering
> if I should try this out along with SJW or wait for the 6
> weeks of SJW before trying this.
>
> Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for you
> ??
>
> Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
>
> Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thansk & best regards,
>
> Haresh

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow InLimbo rambled on about "Re:
Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or anyone else
please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
>sugar pill for treating depression.

Actually, "St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful
than a sugar pill for treating [MAJOR] depression" by "the
establishment" who gleefully spent tons of money to prove
something that we already know. :-(

St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD to MODERATE"
depression, ... ONLY.

Just my opinion, but I am right as usual. :-)
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!

Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people trying to
follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Health-with-Attitude/

[Doe]

>Subject: Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or
>anyone else please help From: InLimbo NONE@NOWHERE.COM Date:
>6/19/02 7:46 AM Mountain Daylight Time Message-id:
><1r21hu4rmkgonnflhdcv946knlaa7mpf71@4ax.com>
>
>St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
>sugar pill for treating depression.
>

Actually I believe the study COMPARED a common depression
prescribed drug .. St. Johns' .. and placebo .. and BOTH came
out behind the placebo .. ?

Which kind of makes one wonder as to the researchers ability
to actually judge or conduct a proper clinical study ..

Who loves ya. Tom











Jesus was a vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Faisal]

The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety and
depression. Some ppl may develop probs as a result of a
deficiency. Take Calcium/Magnesium at a 2:1 ratio- twice as
much calcium.

"Haresh Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed
> to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a week and
> will start Yoga once a week now.
>
> For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort -
> I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
>
> My symtoms are:
>
> ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> throughout the day ~ Easily startled
>
> In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any results
> as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier and deeper
> and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have sleep issues
> before but couldnt wake up on time - always felt like I
> could sleep my troubles away.
>
> I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was wondering
> if I should try this out along with SJW or wait for the 6
> weeks of SJW before trying this.
>
> Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for you
> ??
>
> Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
>
> Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thansk & best regards,
>
> Haresh

[Rick]

I've been on most of the natural remedies and most of the
various antidepressants for over 20 years (not to mention
years of "psychotherapy"). Finally found a doctor who knows
what he is doing. 60 mg/day Prozac did the trick!! "Haresh
Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed
> to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a week and
> will start Yoga once a week now.
>
> For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort -
> I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
>
> My symtoms are:
>
> ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> throughout the day ~ Easily startled
>
> In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any results
> as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier and deeper
> and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have sleep issues
> before but couldnt wake up on time - always felt like I
> could sleep my troubles away.
>
> I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was wondering
> if I should try this out along with SJW or wait for the 6
> weeks of SJW before trying this.
>
> Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for you
> ??
>
> Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
>
> Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thansk & best regards,
>
> Haresh

[Gym Bob]

Never underestimate the power of placebo. Cancer patients
especially whether they like to admit it or not!

"doe" <ironjustice@aol.comdoe> wrote in message
news:20020619152725.13108.00001718@mb-fg.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or
> >anyone else
please
> >help From: InLimbo NONE@NOWHERE.COM Date: 6/19/02 7:46 AM
> >Mountain Daylight Time Message-id:
> ><1r21hu4rmkgonnflhdcv946knlaa7mpf71@4ax.com>
> >
> >St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
> >sugar pill for treating depression.
> >
>
> Actually I believe the study COMPARED a common depression
> prescribed drug
..
> St. Johns' .. and placebo .. and BOTH came out behind the
> placebo .. ?
>
> Which kind of makes one wonder as to the researchers ability
> to actually
judge
> or conduct a proper clinical study ..
>
> Who loves ya. Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jesus was a vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman
> Moses was a mystic!
> http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Gym Bob]

Calcium is easy to get and causes big problems with many.
magnesium doesn't seem to have that problem.

Never take calcium without magnesium, 2:1 as stated or 1:1 as
some say now. Taking magnesium alone is OK

"Faisal" <fuz@nospamgmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1024516443.74031.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...
> The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety and
> depression. Some ppl may develop probs as a result of a
> deficiency. Take Calcium/Magnesium at a 2:1 ratio- twice as
> much calcium.
>
> "Haresh Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com...
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> > General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> > this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> > week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as
> > opposed to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a
> > week and will start Yoga once a week now.
> >
> > For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort
> > - I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> > before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
> >
> > My symtoms are:
> >
> > ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> > especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> > throughout the day ~ Easily startled
> >
> > In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any
> > results as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier
> > and deeper and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have
> > sleep issues before but couldnt wake up on time - always
> > felt like I could sleep my troubles away.
> >
> > I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was
> > wondering if I should try this out along with SJW or wait
> > for the 6 weeks of SJW before trying this.
> >
> > Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for
> > you ??
> >
> > Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
> >
> > Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Thansk & best regards,
> >
> > Haresh

[Haresh Ram]

Thank you all for your responses - I am taking Multi
Vitamin/Mineral Supplement as well as COnjugated
Linoleic Acid.

How much Calcium/Magnesium should I be looking at and at
what time ?

I am going through cognitive behavioural therapy with my
counselor as well.

Thanks again

[Chris Malc]

InLimbo <NONE@NOWHERE.COM> writes:

>St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
>sugar pill for treating depression.

In one study. Another (BMJ) showed it to be as useful as
tricyclic ADs. What makes you prefer one to the other?
--
Chris Malcolm cam@dai.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085 School of
Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics Edinburgh
University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205

[Larry Hoov]

"Haresh Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9af23d87.0206182230.5ecef42f@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,

I don't monitor this group very often, but I thought I'd reply
this time.....

> I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed
> to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a week and
> will start Yoga once a week now.

From a purely semantic perspective, herbs are treatments, but
are unlikely to be cures.

> For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort -
> I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.

It is my belief that if you are to test any drug/herb for
effectiveness, then you should do so systematically and
thoroughly. It is standard practice to ramp up the dosage of
an antidepressant until such time as relief of the presenting
symptoms occurs, or side-effects preclude dose increases. I
would argue that the same thing ought to apply to herbal
medication. Standard Paxil dose might be 20-40 mg/day, but
doses of 100 or more mg/day are not unheard of, for specific
individuals. Tolerances and responsivity vary widely.

For St. John's wort, there has never been a reported overdose.
There has never been a report of true toxic reaction. I used
to have a link to a study where daily SJW doses of 22,000 mg
were given (not a typo), in an effort to determine if the herb
had anti-retroviral effects against HIV. The only typical
side-effect at that dose was sun sensitivity. Unfortunately,
SJW induces certain liver enzymes that reduce the
effectiveness of other anti-HIV medication, so this approach
was abandoned. However, it should be noted that doses 25 times
the typical dose of 900 mg/day had no major adverse affects. I
personally use up to 2250 mg/day as needed, seasonally.

Another issue with respect to SJW, and herbs in general, is
the quality and standardization of the preparation used. It
has become the industry standard to regulate hypericin content
at 0.3%. However, it has recently been shown that another
constituent, hyperforin, may in fact be a more powerful
antidepressant substance, or perhaps in concert with
hypericin, there is a synergistic response. In any case, I
know of only one product that certifies standardization on
both hypericin and hyperforin content, and that is a brand
marketed in the United States as Perika. Surprisingly, it's
not too much more expensive than other brands. I have some on
order, but I have not yet tried it.

> My symtoms are:
>
> ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> throughout the day ~ Easily startled

These symptoms are remeniscent of either PTSD (milder forms)
and/or adrenal fatigue. You may want to consider those
syndromes for ideas on treatment modalities.

I have both. And both respond to magnesium supplementation.
Chronic stress causes loss of magnesium in the urine. Low
blood magnesium levels reduce the ability of the body to
absorb more magnesium. A vicious cycle of low magnesium is
established, which can only be broken by routine
supplementation over a period of time. At first, only passive
uptake of magnesium can occur, as the active transport
mechanism is inhibited by low blood magnesium (via increased
calcium circulation). A few hundred miligrams of elemental
magnesium per day, over a number of weeks, should begin to
reverse that trend. Best forms of magnesium are amino
chelates (e.g. magnesium aspartate, magnesium taurate). Next
best are highly soluble magnesium citrate and magnesium
sulphate, but these must be used with caution as some people
are very sensitive to them, in that they induce fluid
movement into the bowels, resulting in diarrhea. If you use
these forms, you'll guickly know if the dose is too high
<wink>. However, some tolerance does establish itself, as
your body adjusts. Least acceptable is magnesium oxide.
Studies have shown that no more than 6% of this form are
bioavailable, as it requires high stomach acidity to
dissolve. The prior forms are all water soluble.

BTW, IBS can respond to magnesium as well, if anyone from that
thread is watching here.

Other candidates to reduce anxiety are phospholipids, and
licorice root. The former are four different constituents of
cell membranes, which also serve as signalling chemicals.
Three of the four are found in good concentrations in soya
lecithin granules. These are cheap, and quite pleasant
tasting, with a mild nutty taste. Six teaspoons a day, perhaps
added to cereal or a smoothie, or straight up, like I do. The
fourth, but most important one (and most expensive) is
phosphatidyl serine. It's often synthesized from soya
lecithin, but that process is costly. Anyway, 200-400 mg/day.
This has a real calming effect on me.

Licorice root helps to regulate hyper-responsivity of the HPA
axis (hypthalamus/pituitary/adrenal). The startle response and
tremor are associated with diminishing sensitivity to
cortisol-feedback. Licorice root blocks a liver enzyme that
breaks down cortisol, tricking the hypothalamus into thinking
the adrenals are doing a fine job. The adrenals get a rest,
and stop being so "twitchy" in response to stimuli. Take
licorice root for no more than 3-4 weeks, then stop again.

> In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any results
> as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier and deeper
> and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have sleep issues
> before but couldnt wake up on time - always felt like I
> could sleep my troubles away.

SJW restores many people to more restive sleep cycles. There
are numerous stages of sleep, and you may not have been
getting enough of the more restive forms before taking SJW.

> I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was wondering
> if I should try this out along with SJW or wait for the 6
> weeks of SJW before trying this.

Some people swear by rhodiola, and some swear at it.
Unfortunately, I had the (I hate the term) paradoxical
response of hyper-stimulation rather than calming. We all
differ. Do the experiment, and you will know. But wait until
you've come to understand the effects of any other changes
you're making. If you change more than one thing at a time,
you won't have any idea what does what.

> Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for you
> ??

Yes. I get insomnia. <frown>

> Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.

One last thing, re: fatigue. It is my experience that those
remedies for fatigue may also make some other symptoms worse
(e.g. insomnia, for those prone to it). DLPA, or
d-,l-phenylalanine is an excellent and safe energizer, serving
as precursor to a number of neurochemicals. 1 gram/day might
be a reasonable dose (but be prepared to test other doses to
find a personal fit). Also, TMG, trimethyl glycine (a.k.a.
betaine, but *not betaine hydrochloride!*) is a good
energizer. Simply put, it promotes the formation of endogenous
SAMe (and many other products as well, all beneficial).
Warning! It can cause hyperstimulation in sensitive
individuals. Dose makes the poison, so be careful with this
one. Best taken with vitamin B-complex for maximum
effectiveness.

> Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thansk & best regards,
>
> Haresh

You're welcome.

Larry

P.S. email address is fake. larryhoover@(blob)nexicom.net You
know what to do with blobs.

[Larry Hoov]

"InLimbo" <NONE@NOWHERE.COM> wrote in message
news:1r21hu4rmkgonnflhdcv946knlaa7mpf71@4ax.com...
> St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
> sugar pill for treating depression.

One study, conducted by conservative medical practitioners,
funded by pharmaceutical companies, does not show very
much, IMHO.

No one seems to take much notice of the fact that the already
approve prescription antidepressant Serzone was also shown to
be just as ineffective in the same study. I would have
thought that this would be the more noteworthy conclusion
from the study.

There were some fundamental flaws in the study, only
discovered if you read the full text. For example, in the SJW
treatment arm, the SJW was standardized at a minimum of 0.12%
hypericin, quite below the market standard of 0.3%. Giving 900
or even 1200 mg/day of 0.12% hypericin falls far below the
standard dose for mild to moderate depression, and must
therefore be substantially less than that required for
full-blown major depression as defined in the DSM. Not quite a
fair trial, eh?

Just as in the prior study published by the AMA, where SJW was
said to ineffective, despite a finding that significant
positive effects were observed. This positive statistic was
abolished by invoking the non-standard "intention to treat"
protocol, something I've never seen employed in any other
antidepressant trial. Under this protocol, the significance of
the outcome was diminished until it was merely a trend. Again,
this study was funded by pharmaceutical companies, and
conducted by their most loyal, uhhh, supporters (based on
prior research grants).

Until people of the United States wake up to the fact that
only group which benefits from an unregulated herbal
supplement market are the major pharmaceutical companies,
nothing can or will change. The Germans have provided a clear
and simple model for approving and regulating herbal products.
Instead, as time goes on, consumer and professional confidence
in non-standard treatments are gradually eroded because
rampant fraud and exorbitant claims go wholly unchallenged.
The wealthy rule.

<rant mode off>

Larry

[Larry Hoov]

"Faisal" <fuz@nospamgmx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1024516443.74031.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...
> The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety and
> depression. Some ppl may develop probs as a result of a
> deficiency. Take Calcium/Magnesium at a 2:1 ratio- twice as
> much calcium.

Magnesium is an essential nutrient, required for the proper
functioning of over 300 enzymes, including those involved in
the synthesis of neurotranmsitters. Magnesium deficiency is
correlated with type 2 diabetes, asthma, anxiety disorders,
chronic hyperexcitability (as seen in PTSD), weakness and
fatigue (CFS), neuromuscular disorders (FMS), depression, and
more. Among other effects, magnesium deficiency disrupts the
synthesis of dopamine, leads to hyper-excitability of NMDA
receptors, and down-regulates opioid and GABA receptors.

The best supplements are amino acid or HVP protein chelates.
300 mg/day elemental magnesium, or more. Concurrent calcium
supplementation is contra-indicated.

Regards, Larry

Here's some abstracts:

Magnes Trace Elem 1991-92;10(2-4):287-301

Magnesium, stress and neuropsychiatric disorders.

Galland L.

Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratory, Asheville, N.C.

Magnesium has a profound effect on neural excitability; the
most characteristic signs and symptoms of Mg deficiency are
produced by neural and neuromuscular hyperexcitability. These
create a constellation of clinical findings termed tetany
syndrome (TS). TS symptoms include muscle spasms, cramps and
hyperarousal, hyperventilation and asthenia. Physical signs
(Chvostek's, Trousseau's or von Bonsdorff's) and abnormalities
of the electromyogram or electroencephalogram can usually be
elicited. Signs and symptoms of TS are frequently encountered
in clinical practice, especially among patients with
functional or stress-related disorders. The role of Mg deficit
in TS is suggested by relatively low levels of serum or
erythrocyte Mg and by the clinical response to oral Mg salts,
which has been demonstrated in controlled studies. Among the
more serious neurologic sequelae of TS are migraine attacks,
transient ischemic attacks, sensorineural hearing loss and
convulsions. Mg deficiency may predispose to hyperventilation
and may sensitize the cerebral vasculature to the effects of
hypocarbia. Mg deficiency increases susceptibility to the
physiologic damage produced by stress, and Mg administration
has a protective effect; studies on noise stress and
noise-induced hearing loss are taken as an example. In
addition, the adrenergic effects of psychological stress
induce a shift of Mg from the intracellular to the
extracellular space, increasing urinary excretion and
eventually depleting body stores. Drugs used in neurology and
psychiatry may affect Mg levels in blood and may diminish
signs of tetany, making assessment of Mg status more
difficult. Pharmacologic use of Mg can decrease neurologic
deficit in experimental head trauma, possibly by blockade of
N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors. In conjunction with high doses
of pyridoxine, Mg salts benefit 40% of patients with autism,
possibly by an effect on dopamine metabolism.

Magnes Res 1992 Dec;5(4):303-13

Brain and CSF magnesium concentrations during magnesium
deficit in animals and humans: neurological symptoms.

Morris ME.

Department of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, State
University of New York, Buffalo, Amherst.

Magnesium is an essential cofactor for many enzymatic
reactions, especially those involved in energy metabolism.
Deficits of magnesium are prevalent due to inadequate intake
or malabsorption and due to the renal loss of magnesium that
occurs in certain disease states (alcoholism, diabetes) and
with drug therapy (diuretics, aminoglycosides, cisplatin,
digoxin, cyclosporin, amphotericin B). Protracted deficits of
magnesium in humans and animals result in neurological
disturbances, including hyperexcitability, convulsions and
various psychiatric symptoms ranging from apathy to
psychosis, some of which can be reversed with magnesium
supplementation, others requiring correction of the
dysregulation mechanism. Although the role of magnesium in
neuronal function is not completely understood, a lowering
of CSF or brain magnesium can induce epileptiform activity
and there is an association between decreased CSF magnesium
and the development of seizures. CSF concentrations of
magnesium are normally higher than magnesium plasma
ultrafiltrate (diffusible) concentrations due to the active
transport of magnesium across the blood-brain barrier. Under
conditions of magnesium deficiency, CSF concentrations
decline, although this decline lags behind and is less
pronounced than the changes observed in plasma magnesium
concentrations. Decreases in CSF magnesium concentrations
correlate with the alterations observed in extracellular
brain magnesium concentrations in animals following the
dietary deprivation of magnesium. CSF magnesium
concentrations can readily be repleted following magnesium
supplementation, although high dose magnesium therapy, such
as that used in the treatment of convulsions in eclampsia,
will only increase CSF magnesium concentrations to a very
limited degree (approximately 11-18 per cent) above
physiological concentrations. Greater increases in CSF
magnesium may occur in neonates since neonatal swine,
following treatment with magnesium, have CSF magnesium
concentrations that are similar to their plasma
concentrations. There has been a recent resurgence of
interest in magnesium deficiency and its neurological
consequences due to the finding that magnesium, at
physiological concentrations, blocks N-methyl-D-aspartate
(NMDA) receptors in neurones. NMDA receptors are normally
activated by glutamate and/or aspartate which represent the
principal neurotransmitters for excitatory synaptic
transmission in vertebrate CNS. Magnesium deficiency
produces epileptiform activity in the CNS which can be
blocked by NMDA receptor antagonists. Other mechanisms,
including alterations in Na+/K(+)-ATPase activity, cAMP/cGMP
concentrations and calcium currents in pre- and postsynaptic
membranes, may also be at least partially responsible for
the neuronal effects associated with low brain magnesium.
Further studies are necessary to increase our understanding
of the neurological implications of magnesium deficit in the
central nervous system.

Wis Med J 1990 Oct;89(10):579-83

Magnesium metabolism.

Reinhart RA.

Cardiology Department, Marshfield Clinic, WI 54449.

Magnesium is the second most abundant intracellular cation in
the human body and is necessary as a cofactor in more than 300
enzymatic reactions. The generation and use of adenosine
triphosphate is dependent on the presence of magnesium. The
assessment of the magnesium status of a patient is problematic
because there are no easily performed tests that reliably
predict the intracellular concentration. There are recognized
molecular and cellular actions of magnesium that explain
clinically recognizable problems when a magnesium deficiency
or excess is present. Guidelines for therapy of magnesium
deficiency are given. Future directions in research are given.

Magnes Res 2000 Dec;13(4):293-302

Physiopathology of symptomatic and latent forms of central
nervous hyperexcitability due to magnesium deficiency: a
current general scheme.

Durlach J, Bac P, Bara M, Guiet-Bara A.

SDRM, H pital Saint-Vincent-de-Paul, Paris, France.

Symptomatic forms of central nervous hyperexcitability (NHE)
due to magnesium deficiency results from the sum of direct
cellular effects and of local and systemic mediated effects
inducing depolarization and NHE. Direct effects associate
decreased energy and cationic gradient with disturbances in Ca
distribution, decreased second messenger nucleotidic ratio and
increased susceptibility to peroxidation. Local mediated
effects associate increased activity of excitatory
neuromediators: acetylcholine, catecholamines and ionotropic -
(NMDA and non-NMDA) - receptors of excitatory aminoacids
(EAA), with decreased activity of inhibitory neuromediators:
GABA, taurine, glutaurine, adenosine and K receptors of
opioids. Systemic mediated effects associate increased
production of inflammatory mediators: neuropeptides,
prostanoids, cytokines Th 1, aldehydes with decreased activity
of oxidant and antialdehyde defences. Compensatory factors
instrumental in the latency of NHE due to magnesium deficiency
may also be direct or mediated. Increased intracellular pH,
modif ications of Ca and Mg binding proteins, increase in
'magnesium-like' polyamines, stimulation of cellular
antioxidant system; decreased activity of EAA metabotropic
receptors and of opioid mu (and delta) receptors, increased
activity of inhibitory neuromediators, increased production of
anti-inflammatory mediator such as cytokines Th 2, stimulation
of systemic antioxidant and antialdehyde defences. A lot of
diverse compounds are able to palliate symptomatic NHE due to
magnesium deficiency either by pharmacodynamic effects or
through physiopathological intervention. The efficiency of
these treatments can be evaluated on multiple disparate
parameters. The pattern of NHE due to magnesium deficiency
differs according to species, strains, gender, age and
intensity of magnesium deficiency. For example: hot plate test
showed a hypoalgesia 'morphine-like' pattern induced by
magnesium deficiency cured by magnesium acetyltaurinate in
mice whilst paw pressure test showed a hyperalgic pattern
caused by magnesium deficiency cured by dizolcipine in rats.
Now it seems difficult to rank hierarchically the various
physiopathological mechanisms of NHE due to magnesium
deficiency. But the proposed general scheme of the factors
controlling this NHE provides a possible explanation of both
diffuse symptomatic and latent forms and stresses the
complexity of the physiopathological mechanisms of central NHE
due to magnesium deficiency.

[Larry Hoov]

"John 'the Man'" <DeMan[67]@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l5v0huotplqm2rjdae0g6mku847j984d0a@4ax.com...
> Once upon a time, our fellow InLimbo rambled on about "Re:
> Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or anyone else
> please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
> sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>
> >St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
> >sugar pill for treating depression.
>
> Actually, "St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less
> useful than a sugar pill for treating [MAJOR] depression" by
> "the establishment" who gleefully spent tons of money to
> prove something that we already know. :-(
>
> St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD to MODERATE"
> depression, ... ONLY.
>
> Just my opinion, but I am right as usual. :-)

No John, you're merely opinionated as usual, and fixated on an
irrelevant criterion of your words.

Like any medication, there is dose-responsiveness. Dose should
be matched to symptom severity, something that no American
study has really addressed appropriately. European studies
often employ doses of 1800 mg/day, and I've used more than
that on a symptomatic basis. Mild to moderate doses of SJW are
appropriate for mild to moderate depression is likely to be a
more reasonable conclusive statement.

Larry

[Sir John]

"Larry Hoover" <larryhoover@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:XkDQ8.6555$TL6.1895339@news20.bellglobal.com...

> > >St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
> > >sugar pill for treating depression.

> > Actually, "St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less
> > useful than a sugar pill for treating [MAJOR] depression"
> > by "the establishment" who gleefully spent tons of money
> > to prove something that we already know. :-(

> > St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD to
> > MODERATE" depression, ... ONLY.

> > Just my opinion, but I am right as usual. :-)

> No John, you're merely opinionated as usual, and fixated on
> an irrelevant criterion of your words.

Listen you Big, Fat, pile of Shit!

We both replied to the same post. We both said essentially
the same thing. The *only* difference between moi and you
was that my post was timely, but your's was about a month
late as usual.

I didn't comment on dosage, nor type of St Johns Wort.

Nor, did the poster of the comment that I replied to ever
identify the study in question.

Larry, you are Full-of-Shit as usual. :-)

You can go back to sleep, now!

[Larry Hoov]

"Sir John" <Sir John@GetStev.com> wrote in message news:sWDQ8-
.53597$UT.3627042@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Listen you Big, Fat, pile of Shit!

Pardon me? Did your mother teach you to speak like that?

> We both replied to the same post. We both said essentially
> the same
thing.

No, we didn't.

> The *only* difference between moi and you was that my post
> was timely, but your's was about a month late as usual.

Two days, John. Hyperbole like that is unnecessary. I was out
of town on assignment.

[Sir John]

"Larry Hoover" <larryhoover@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1REQ8.6280$bh2.661741@news20.bellglobal.com...

> > We both replied to the same post. We both said essentially
> > the same
> thing.

> No, we didn't.

Yes, we did. :-)

> > The *only* difference between moi and you was that my post
> > was timely,
but
> > your's was about a month late as usual.
>
> Two days, John. Hyperbole like that is unnecessary. I was
> out of town on assignment.

Late is late!

The thread ended two days ago. :-)

Now, the Twit Arguments begin. :-(

[Gym Bob]

nice one!

"Larry Hoover" <larryhoover@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:vXCQ8.6549$TL6.1893207@news20.bellglobal.com...
> "Haresh Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9af23d87.0206182230.5ecef42f@posting.google.com...
> > Hello all,
>
> I don't monitor this group very often, but I thought I'd
> reply this time.....
>
> > I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> > General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> > this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> > week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as
> > opposed to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a
> > week and will start Yoga once a week now.
>
> From a purely semantic perspective, herbs are treatments,
> but are unlikely to be cures.
>
> > For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort
> > - I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> > before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
>
> It is my belief that if you are to test any drug/herb for
> effectiveness, then you should do so systematically and
> thoroughly. It is standard
practice
> to ramp up the dosage of an antidepressant until such time
> as relief of
the
> presenting symptoms occurs, or side-effects preclude dose
> increases. I
would
> argue that the same thing ought to apply to herbal
> medication. Standard Paxil dose might be 20-40 mg/day, but
> doses of 100 or more mg/day are not unheard of, for specific
> individuals. Tolerances and responsivity vary widely.
>
> For St. John's wort, there has never been a reported
> overdose. There has never been a report of true toxic
> reaction. I used to have a link to a
study
> where daily SJW doses of 22,000 mg were given (not a typo),
> in an effort
to
> determine if the herb had anti-retroviral effects against
> HIV. The only typical side-effect at that dose was sun
> sensitivity. Unfortunately, SJW induces certain liver
> enzymes that reduce the effectiveness of other anti-HIV
> medication, so this approach was abandoned. However, it
> should be noted that doses 25 times the typical dose of 900
> mg/day had no major adverse affects. I personally use up to
> 2250 mg/day as needed, seasonally.
>
> Another issue with respect to SJW, and herbs in general, is
> the quality
and
> standardization of the preparation used. It has become the
> industry
standard
> to regulate hypericin content at 0.3%. However, it has
> recently been shown that another constituent, hyperforin,
> may in fact be a more powerful antidepressant substance, or
> perhaps in concert with hypericin, there is a synergistic
> response. In any case, I know of only one product that
certifies
> standardization on both hypericin and hyperforin content,
> and that is a brand marketed in the United States as Perika.
> Surprisingly, it's not too much more expensive than other
> brands. I have some on order, but I have
not
> yet tried it.
>
> > My symtoms are:
> >
> > ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> > especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> > throughout the day ~ Easily startled
>
> These symptoms are remeniscent of either PTSD (milder
> forms) and/or
adrenal
> fatigue. You may want to consider those syndromes for ideas
> on treatment modalities.
>
> I have both. And both respond to magnesium supplementation.
> Chronic stress causes loss of magnesium in the urine. Low
> blood magnesium levels reduce
the
> ability of the body to absorb more magnesium. A vicious
> cycle of low magnesium is established, which can only be
> broken by routine supplementation over a period of time. At
> first, only passive uptake of magnesium can occur, as the
> active transport mechanism is inhibited by low blood
> magnesium (via increased calcium circulation). A few hundred
miligrams
> of elemental magnesium per day, over a number of weeks,
> should begin to reverse that trend. Best forms of magnesium
> are amino chelates (e.g. magnesium aspartate, magnesium
> taurate). Next best are highly soluble magnesium citrate and
> magnesium sulphate, but these must be used with caution as
> some people are very sensitive to them, in that they induce
fluid
> movement into the bowels, resulting in diarrhea. If you use
> these forms, you'll guickly know if the dose is too high
> <wink>. However, some
tolerance
> does establish itself, as your body adjusts. Least
> acceptable is magnesium oxide. Studies have shown that no
> more than 6% of this form are bioavailable, as it requires
> high stomach acidity to dissolve. The prior forms are all
> water soluble.
>
> BTW, IBS can respond to magnesium as well, if anyone from
> that thread is watching here.
>
> Other candidates to reduce anxiety are phospholipids, and
> licorice root.
The
> former are four different constituents of cell membranes,
> which also serve as signalling chemicals. Three of the four
> are found in good
concentrations
> in soya lecithin granules. These are cheap, and quite
> pleasant tasting,
with
> a mild nutty taste. Six teaspoons a day, perhaps added to
> cereal or a smoothie, or straight up, like I do. The fourth,
> but most important one
(and
> most expensive) is phosphatidyl serine. It's often
> synthesized from soya lecithin, but that process is
> costly. Anyway, 200-400 mg/day. This has a real calming
> effect on me.
>
> Licorice root helps to regulate hyper-responsivity of the
> HPA axis (hypthalamus/pituitary/adrenal). The startle
> response and tremor are associated with diminishing
> sensitivity to cortisol-feedback. Licorice
root
> blocks a liver enzyme that breaks down cortisol, tricking
> the hypothalamus into thinking the adrenals are doing a fine
> job. The adrenals get a rest, and stop being so "twitchy" in
> response to stimuli. Take licorice root for no more than 3-4
> weeks, then stop again.
>
> > In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any
> > results as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier
> > and deeper and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have
> > sleep issues before but couldnt wake up on time - always
> > felt like I could sleep my troubles away.
>
> SJW restores many people to more restive sleep cycles. There
> are numerous stages of sleep, and you may not have been
> getting enough of the more restive forms before taking SJW.
>
> > I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was
> > wondering if I should try this out along with SJW or wait
> > for the 6 weeks of SJW before trying this.
>
> Some people swear by rhodiola, and some swear at it.
> Unfortunately, I had the (I hate the term) paradoxical
> response of hyper-stimulation rather
than
> calming. We all differ. Do the experiment, and you will
> know. But wait
until
> you've come to understand the effects of any other changes
> you're making.
If
> you change more than one thing at a time, you won't have any
> idea what
does
> what.
>
> > Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for
> > you ??
>
> Yes. I get insomnia. <frown>
>
> > Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
>
> One last thing, re: fatigue. It is my experience that those
> remedies for fatigue may also make some other symptoms worse
> (e.g. insomnia, for those prone to it). DLPA, or
> d-,l-phenylalanine is an excellent and safe energizer,
> serving as precursor to a number of neurochemicals. 1
> gram/day might be a reasonable dose (but be prepared to test
> other doses to find a personal fit). Also, TMG, trimethyl
> glycine (a.k.a. betaine, but *not betaine hydrochloride!*)
> is a good energizer. Simply put, it promotes the formation
> of endogenous SAMe (and many other products as well, all
> beneficial). Warning! It can cause hyperstimulation in
> sensitive individuals. Dose makes the poison, so be careful
> with this one. Best
taken
> with vitamin B-complex for maximum effectiveness.
>
> > Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Thansk & best regards,
> >
> > Haresh
>
> You're welcome.
>
> Larry
>
> P.S. email address is fake. larryhoover@(blob)nexicom.net
> You know what to do with blobs.
>

[Evelyn Ruu]

"Haresh Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com...
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed
> to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a week and
> will start Yoga once a week now.
>
> For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort -
> I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
>
> My symtoms are:
>
> ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> throughout the day ~ Easily startled
>
> In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any results
> as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier and deeper
> and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have sleep issues
> before but couldnt wake up on time - always felt like I
> could sleep my troubles away.
>
> I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was wondering
> if I should try this out along with SJW or wait for the 6
> weeks of SJW before trying this.
>
> Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for you
> ??
>
> Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
>
> Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thansk & best regards,
>
> Haresh

Dear Haresh,

Just a couple of all natural suggestions.

First of all, don't forget that the best way to fight
depression is with exercise, which induces the brain to
release natural antidepressant endorphins.

Take care of yourself.

Be kind to yourself.

Eat at regular times and sleep at regular times. Nothing
caffeinated at night. Especially be careful with soda's. They
are often full of caffeine which exacerbate anxiety.

Go to bed early to be sure you are getting enough sleep.

Avoid caffeine from coffee, tea is better instead... has less
of a jangling effect on the nerves.

Meditation is very helpful.

Stay away from alcohol. You will be up while you are drinking
it, but down the next day.

Don't think too much.

Get out into nature and take long walks. No cell phone or
music - just silence and nature.

Being near water especially is good. Walk near a river
or a lake.

Try Bach rescue remedy (from the health food store) when you
feel anxiety.

Believe in your own inherent goodness and open your mind to a
higher spiritual power.

Good luck, Evelyn

[Pramesh Ru]

"InLimbo" <NONE@NOWHERE.COM> wrote in message
news:1r21hu4rmkgonnflhdcv946knlaa7mpf71@4ax.com...
> St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
> sugar pill for treating depression.

New St. John's Wort Study Misleads Public
http://www.cassmd.com/html/news.php?story=1

Herbs, drugs and severe depression
http://www.msnbc.com/news/736379.asp?0si=-

The SSRI Zoloft/sertraline did worse than placebo as well..

St Johns Wort is recommend for the treatment of mild to
moderate depression, not severe depression. Zoloft failed on
severe depression as well. It was a "meta" study with
inconsistent data sources. Too bad for the Zoloft though - it
must be a waste money. LOL.

--

Pramesh Rutajit - p2976221tongue@newsguy.com - remove
tongue to reply.

[Haresh Ram]

Larry & everyone,

Thank you very much for all the responses and suggestions. I
guess I have a lot of information to understand & digest.

I will go through all of this and try and use some of the
remedies as a lot of the stuff mentioned here is not
avaialable in Hong kong.

Thanks very much again - your ideas and suggestions are much
appreciated.

Best regards,

Haresh

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow Pramesh Rutajit rambled on about
"Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or anyone else
please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>St Johns Wort is recommend for the treatment of mild to
>moderate depression, not severe depression. Zoloft failed on
>severe depression as well. It was a "meta" study with
>inconsistent data sources. Too bad for the Zoloft though - it
>must be a waste money. LOL.

Read this Larry Hoover, 'the Buffoon!'

[Larry Hoov]

"John 'the Man'" <DeMan[70]@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:di8dhug0rdsaek81e2ual30tgecq3vgbf5@4ax.com...
> Once upon a time, our fellow Pramesh Rutajit rambled on
> about "Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or
> anyone else please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
> sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>
> >St Johns Wort is recommend for the treatment of mild to
> >moderate
depression,
> >not severe depression. Zoloft failed on severe depression
> >as well. It
was
> >a "meta" study with inconsistent data sources. Too bad for
> >the Zoloft though - it must be a waste money. LOL.
>
> Read this Larry Hoover, 'the Buffoon!'

John, I'm beginning to wonder if you can read. I certainly
know you can't comprehend.

From a previous posting in this thread, I said: "One study,
conducted by conservative medical practitioners, funded by
pharmaceutical companies, does not show very much, IMHO.

No one seems to take much notice of the fact that the already
approve prescription antidepressant Serzone was also shown to
be just as ineffective in the same study. I would have
thought that this would be the more noteworthy conclusion
from the study.

There were some fundamental flaws in the study, only
discovered if you read the full text. For example, in the SJW
treatment arm, the SJW was standardized at a minimum of 0.12%
hypericin, quite below the market standard of 0.3%. Giving 900
or even 1200 mg/day of 0.12% hypericin falls far below the
standard dose for mild to moderate depression, and must
therefore be substantially less than that required for
full-blown major depression as defined in the DSM. Not quite a
fair trial, eh?

Just as in the prior study published by the AMA, where SJW was
said to ineffective, despite a finding that significant
positive effects were observed. This positive statistic was
abolished by invoking the non-standard "intention to treat"
protocol, something I've never seen employed in any other
antidepressant trial. Under this protocol, the significance of
the outcome was diminished until it was merely a trend. Again,
this study was funded by pharmaceutical companies, and
conducted by their most loyal, uhhh, supporters (based on
prior research grants).

Until people of the United States wake up to the fact that
only group which benefits from an unregulated herbal
supplement market are the major pharmaceutical companies,
nothing can or will change. The Germans have provided a clear
and simple model for approving and regulating herbal products.
Instead, as time goes on, consumer and professional confidence
in non-standard treatments are gradually eroded because
rampant fraud and exorbitant claims go wholly unchallenged.
The wealthy rule."

I could give you abstracts from a number of meta-analyses of
SJW in the treatment of depression, but this one is
representative:

Int Clin Psychopharmacol 2001 Sep;16(5):239-52

A systematic review and meta-analysis of Hypericum perforatum
in depression: a comprehensive clinical review.

Whiskey E, Werneke U, Taylor D.

Pharmacy Department, Maudsley Hospital, London, UK.

The herbal remedy St John's wort is widely used as an
antidepressant but its efficacy has not been systematically
investigated. Meta-analyses and systematic reviews of
published trials strongly suggest St John's wort is more
effective than placebo although comparative efficacy to
standard antidepressants is less clearly established. We
updated and expanded previous meta-analyses of St John's wort,
scrutinised the validity of published reports and examined
possible mechanisms of action. Twenty-two randomised
controlled trials were identified. Meta-analysis showed St
John's wort to be significantly more effective than placebo
(relative risk (RR)
1.98 (95% CI 1.49-2.62)) but not significantly different in
efficacy from active antidepressants (RR 1.0 (0.90-1.11)). A
sub-analysis of six placebo-controlled trials and four
active comparator trials satisfying stricter methodological
criteria also suggested that St John's wort was more
effective than placebo (RR 1.77 (1.16-2.70)) and of similar
effectiveness to standard antidepressants (RR 1.04
(0.94-1.15)). There was no evidence of publication bias.
Adverse effects occurred more frequently with standard
antidepressants than with St John's wort. The mechanism of
action of St John's wort remains unknown. Future research
should include large scale, appropriately powered
comparisons of St John's wort and standard antidepressants.

Second, it is untrue that SJW has never been tested in the
context of severe depression. As I stated elsewhere, the dose
should be adjusted to the severity of symptoms, as these
researchers implicitly understood, using twice the dose
recommended for milder depression.

Pharmacopsychiatry 1997 Sep;30 Suppl 2:81-5

Efficacy and tolerability of St. John's wort extract LI 160
versus imipramine in patients with severe depressive episodes
according to ICD-10.

Vorbach EU, Arnoldt KH, Hubner WD.

Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Ev. Krankenhaus
Elisabethenstift, Darmstadt, Germany.

The special extract of St. John's wort, LI 160, exhibited a
superior antidepressant efficacy compared to placebo in
several controlled trials. Two further trials demonstrated a
similar reduction of depressive symptomatology under LI 160
compared to tricyclics. All these trials were performed in
mildly to moderately depressed patients. The present
investigation was a randomized, controlled, multicentre,
6-week trial comparing 1800 mg LI 160/die to 150 mg
imipramine/die in severely depressed patients according to
ICD-10. The main efficacy parameter, a reduction of the total
score of the Hamilton Depression Scale, proved both treatment
regimens very effective at the end of the 6 week treatment
period (mean values 25.3 to 14.5 in the LI 160 group and 26.1
to 13.6 in the imipramine group), but not statistically
equivalent within a a-priori defined 25% interval of
deviation. The analysis of subgroups with more than a 33% and
50% reduction of the HAMD total score justified the assumption
of equivalence within a 25% deviation interval. This view was
also supported by the global efficacy ratings from patients
and investigators. Regarding adverse events, the nonrejection
of the nonequivalence hypothesis denotes a superiority of the
herbal antidepressant. These main result indicate that LI 160
might be a treatment alternative to the synthetic tricyclic
antidepressant imipramine in the majority of severe forms of
depressions. However, more studies of this type must be
performed before a stronger recommendation can be made.

Now, whatever it is that you are criticizing me about (it's
certainly not obvious from your churlish ad hominem comments
just what it is you're getting at), try making an explicit
argument, or shut the fuck up.

With all due respect (none), Larry

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow Larry Hoover 'the Buffoon'
rambled on about "Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry
Hoover or anyone else please help." Our champion
De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>>St Johns Wort is recommend for the treatment of mild to
>>moderate depression, not severe depression. Zoloft failed on
>>severe depression as well. It was a "meta" study with
>>inconsistent data sources. Too bad for the Zoloft though -
>>it must be a waste money. LOL.

>Read this Larry Hoover, 'the Buffoon!'>

>John, I'm beginning to wonder if you can read. I certainly
>know you can't comprehend.

The *only* thing that counts Larry is that I said virtually
the same thing, as this person did.

I wrote: "St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD to
MODERATE" depression, ... ONLY."

Numerous, recent articles in the media said virtually the same
thing. I have heard an audio file of Andrew Weil, MD say
virtually the same thing.

So, why don't you Larry just go to Hell! Am I
communicating, Yet?

So, I don't take kindly to FatSo Larry 'the Buffoon'
maliciously attacking me, for making a simple statement that
is totally valid.
--
John Gohde Email: Ngs@NaturalHealthPerspective.com (((((((((((
Left-Brain Mode ON )))))))))))) Richmond, Virginia, USA,
Planet Earth, The Sun, Milky Way galaxy The *only* thing that
counts Larry is that you got in my face. And, Brother I am
returning the favor, Shit Head!

[Larry Hoov]

"John 'the Man'" <DeMan[70]@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6uvdhucpgv823jf69glea5241rgg7ci24f@4ax.com...
> >John, I'm beginning to wonder if you can read. I certainly
> >know you can't comprehend.
>
> The *only* thing that counts Larry is that I said virtually
> the same thing, as this person did.
>
> I wrote: "St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD to
> MODERATE" depression, ... ONLY."

But John, it is this statement which I have been refuting:

"Actually, "St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less
useful than a sugar pill for treating [MAJOR] depression" by
"the establishment" who gleefully spent tons of money to
prove something that we already know. :-( "

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We *don't*
know what you are claiming to be true. The pharmaceutical
company-funded "establishment" couldn't even show that Serzone
works, in this particular trial, yet we are to believe that
*subclinical* doses of SJW as treatment of major depression
are sufficient proof that SJW doesn't work?

Comprends-tu?

[Ken H]

You know John, perhaps if you took that autoheader off your
posts that starts every one of your posts as an insult that
would lend some credibility to what you have to say. People,
including yourself as is obvious, don't take kindly to being
insulted. Kindness and politeness go a long way towards
effective communication and being taken seriously.

Just a suggestion.

Ken Hassman

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow Larry Hoover rambled on about
"Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or anyone else
please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>> The *only* thing that counts Larry is that I said virtually
>> the same thing, as this person did.

>> I wrote: "St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD
>> to MODERATE" depression, ... ONLY."

>But John, it is this statement which I have been refuting:

> "Actually, "St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less
> useful than a sugar pill for treating [MAJOR] depression" by
> "the establishment" who gleefully spent tons of money to
> prove something that we already know. :-( "

>The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We
>*don't* know what you are claiming to be true. The
>pharmaceutical company-funded "establishment" couldn't even
>show that Serzone works, in this particular trial, yet we are
>to believe that *subclinical* doses of SJW as treatment of
>major depression are sufficient proof that SJW doesn't work?

Listen You Dick-Head, that was a quote from InLimbo who wrote:
"St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
sugar pill for treating depression."

You don't like my additions?

Then go to Hell!!! You Shit-Head!

Am I communicating, Yet?

[Sir John]

Go to Hell Ken H!

"Ken H" <ken@removehassman.com> wrote in message
news:af7if5$r9m$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> You know John, perhaps if you took that autoheader off your
> posts that starts every one of your posts as an insult that
> would lend some
credibility
> to what you have to say. People, including yourself as is
> obvious, don't take kindly to being insulted. Kindness and
> politeness go a long way towards effective communication and
> being taken seriously.
>
> Just a suggestion.
>
> Ken Hassman

[Ken H]

Is that really your answer to me when I am trying to help you
be taken more seriously? Wow.

kh

[Sir John]

Mind your own business, Shit Head!

Anybody who thinks tthat hey have the right to dictate how
somebody else formats their posts is Anal!

"Ken H" <ken@removehassman.com> wrote in message
news:af7nmn$e3k$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Is that really your answer to me when I am trying to help
> you be taken
more
> seriously? Wow.
>
> kh

[Gym Bob]

What an asshole. Look in the fucking mirror.

"John 'the Man'" <DeMan[70]@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6uvdhucpgv823jf69glea5241rgg7ci24f@4ax.com...
> Once upon a time, our fellow Larry Hoover 'the Buffoon'
> rambled on about "Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry
> Hoover or anyone else please help." Our champion
> De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
>
> >>St Johns Wort is recommend for the treatment of mild to
> >>moderate
depression,
> >>not severe depression. Zoloft failed on severe depression
> >>as well. It
was
> >>a "meta" study with inconsistent data sources. Too bad for
> >>the Zoloft though - it must be a waste money. LOL.
>
> >Read this Larry Hoover, 'the Buffoon!'>
>
> >John, I'm beginning to wonder if you can read. I certainly
> >know you can't comprehend.
>
> The *only* thing that counts Larry is that I said virtually
> the same thing, as this person did.
>
> I wrote: "St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD to
> MODERATE" depression, ... ONLY."
>
> Numerous, recent articles in the media said virtually the
> same thing. I have heard an audio file of Andrew Weil, MD
> say virtually the same thing.
>
> So, why don't you Larry just go to Hell! Am I
> communicating, Yet?
>
> So, I don't take kindly to FatSo Larry 'the Buffoon'
> maliciously attacking me, for making a simple statement that
> is totally valid.
> --
> John Gohde Email: Ngs@NaturalHealthPerspective.com
> ((((((((((( Left-Brain Mode ON )))))))))))) Richmond,
> Virginia, USA, Planet Earth, The Sun, Milky Way galaxy The
> *only* thing that counts Larry is that you got in my face.
> And, Brother I am returning the favor, Shit Head!
>
>

[Gym Bob]

I previously told him that very politely.

Asshole = grudge against the world + know it all = can't be
told nothin' and can't learn

"Ken H" <ken@removehassman.com> wrote in message
news:af7if5$r9m$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> You know John, perhaps if you took that autoheader off your
> posts that starts every one of your posts as an insult that
> would lend some
credibility
> to what you have to say. People, including yourself as is
> obvious, don't take kindly to being insulted. Kindness and
> politeness go a long way towards effective communication and
> being taken seriously.
>
> Just a suggestion.
>
> Ken Hassman

[Sir John]

Fuck You Ass-Hole!

"Gym Bob" <noney@spam.com> wrote in message
news:94MR8.231$RI7.55112764@radon.golden.net...
> What an asshole. Look in the fucking mirror.
>
> "John 'the Man'" <DeMan[70]@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6uvdhucpgv823jf69glea5241rgg7ci24f@4ax.com...
> > Once upon a time, our fellow Larry Hoover 'the Buffoon'
> > rambled on about "Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry
> > Hoover or anyone else please help." Our champion
> > De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...
> >
> > >>St Johns Wort is recommend for the treatment of mild to
> > >>moderate
> depression,
> > >>not severe depression. Zoloft failed on severe
> > >>depression as well.
It
> was
> > >>a "meta" study with inconsistent data sources. Too bad
> > >>for the Zoloft though - it must be a waste money. LOL.
> >
> > >Read this Larry Hoover, 'the Buffoon!'>
> >
> > >John, I'm beginning to wonder if you can read. I
> > >certainly know you
can't
> > >comprehend.
> >
> > The *only* thing that counts Larry is that I said
> > virtually the same thing, as this person did.
> >
> > I wrote: "St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD
> > to MODERATE" depression, ... ONLY."
> >
> > Numerous, recent articles in the media said virtually the
> > same thing. I have heard an audio file of Andrew Weil, MD
> > say virtually the same thing.
> >
> > So, why don't you Larry just go to Hell! Am I
> > communicating, Yet?
> >
> > So, I don't take kindly to FatSo Larry 'the Buffoon'
> > maliciously attacking me, for making a simple statement
> > that is totally valid.
> > --
> > John Gohde Email: Ngs@NaturalHealthPerspective.com
> > ((((((((((( Left-Brain Mode ON )))))))))))) Richmond,
> > Virginia, USA, Planet Earth, The Sun, Milky Way galaxy The
> > *only* thing that counts Larry is that you got in my face.
> > And, Brother I am returning the favor, Shit Head!
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Slenon]

gohde:
>You don't like my additions? Then go to Hell!!! You
>Shit-Head! Am I
communicating, Yet?

No, you're not. You never have. You never will. You remain a
prophet in your own mind, a meltdown happening in nearly real
time for our amusement. How does it feel to be regarded as as
the logical successor to Watchworm?

What degrees, what universities, what disciplines? A simple
question anyone else could answer. Too bad you can't.
--
Stev Still dancing in the Phil Zone & scattering Garcia ashes
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) - In healthcare the ultimate bottom line
is patients not profit Save a cow, eat a PETA member
slenon@tampabay.rr.com http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/ind-
ex.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Sir John]

Fuck You Ass-Hole!

"Gym Bob" <noney@spam.com> wrote in message
news:46MR8.232$fJ7.55137351@radon.golden.net...
> I previously told him that very politely.
>
> Asshole = grudge against the world + know it all = can't be
> told nothin'
and
> can't learn
>
> "Ken H" <ken@removehassman.com> wrote in message
> news:af7if5$r9m$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > You know John, perhaps if you took that autoheader off
> > your posts that starts every one of your posts as an
> > insult that would lend some
> credibility
> > to what you have to say. People, including yourself as is
> > obvious,
don't
> > take kindly to being insulted. Kindness and politeness go
> > a long way towards effective communication and being taken
> > seriously.
> >
> > Just a suggestion.
> >
> > Ken Hassman
> >
>

[Slenon]

gohde:
>Fuck You Ass-Hole!

How wonderfully intelligent. Which of your other screen
names helped you write that marvelous post? It's obviously
to complex for any single screen name to have written it
without help.

--
Stev Still dancing in the Phil Zone & scattering Garcia ashes
Stev Lenon MT(ASCP) - In healthcare the ultimate bottom line
is patients not profit Save a cow, eat a PETA member
slenon@tampabay.rr.com http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/ind-
ex.html/slhomepage92kword.htm

[Suzee]

Ken H wrote:
>
> Is that really your answer to me when I am trying to help
> you be taken more seriously? Wow.
>
> kh

It's usually his answer to everything.

sue

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow Larry 'the Buffoon' rambled on
about "Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or
anyone else please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>Am I communicating, Yet?

http://www.daniellelin.com/tunein/audio/512a04-13-02.ram

Andrew Weil, MD says the same thing in person, that I
wrote in words.
:-)

[Ken H]

Uh John,

I can see that it is pointless to attempt intelligent
discourse with you but I have noticed as I have been reading
this group for at least a few years now that you a) aren't
taken seriously by many and perhaps have useful things to say
and b) are often hostile and call people names.

I was just attempting, which I certainly won't do anymore,
to be helpful, you know as in helpful. Pardon my attempts
at friendliness, I won't make that mistake as regards you
any longer.

Ken

[Pbeyer]

Larry Hoover wrote:

> "Faisal" <fuz@nospamgmx.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1024516443.74031.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...
> > The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety and
> > depression. Some ppl may develop probs as a result of a
> > deficiency. Take Calcium/Magnesium at a 2:1 ratio- twice
> > as much calcium.
>
> Magnesium is an essential nutrient, required for the proper
> functioning of over 300 enzymes, including those involved in
> the synthesis of neurotranmsitters. Magnesium deficiency is
> correlated with type 2 diabetes, asthma, anxiety disorders,
> chronic hyperexcitability (as seen in PTSD), weakness and
> fatigue (CFS), neuromuscular disorders (FMS), depression,
> and more. Among other effects, magnesium deficiency disrupts
> the synthesis of dopamine, leads to hyper-excitability of
> NMDA receptors, and down-regulates opioid and GABA
> receptors.
>
> The best supplements are amino acid or HVP protein chelates.
> 300 mg/day elemental magnesium, or more. Concurrent calcium
> supplementation is contra-indicated.
>
> Regards, Larry

Larry-- I read your abstracts (and others before about
magnesium and deficiency). I've seen magnesium deficiency,
both with obvious clinical effects and "laboratory" deficiency
without obvious clinical manifestations. The question is, at
what point does an individual benefit from supplementation?
This issue is appropriate whenever we start saying supplement
x works when there is a "deficiency". Pete

[Larry Hoov]

"pbeyer" <pbeyer@kumc.edu> wrote in message
news:3D188539.3D426918@kumc.edu...
>
>
> Larry Hoover wrote:
>
> > "Faisal" <fuz@nospamgmx.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1024516443.74031.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...
> > > The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety and
> > > depression.
Some
> > > ppl may develop probs as a result of a deficiency. Take
Calcium/Magnesium
> > > at a 2:1 ratio- twice as much calcium.
> >
> > Magnesium is an essential nutrient, required for the
> > proper functioning
of
> > over 300 enzymes, including those involved in the
> > synthesis of neurotranmsitters. Magnesium deficiency is
> > correlated with type 2
diabetes,
> > asthma, anxiety disorders, chronic hyperexcitability (as
> > seen in PTSD), weakness and fatigue (CFS), neuromuscular
> > disorders (FMS), depression,
and
> > more. Among other effects, magnesium deficiency disrupts
> > the synthesis
of
> > dopamine, leads to hyper-excitability of NMDA
> > receptors, and
down-regulates
> > opioid and GABA receptors.
> >
> > The best supplements are amino acid or HVP protein
> > chelates. 300 mg/day elemental magnesium, or more.
> > Concurrent calcium supplementation is contra-indicated.

I should have revised that last sentence......on further
study, the "common knowledge" that calcium supplements reduce
uptake of magnesium taken simultaneously appears to be
without foundation. High blood levels of calcium inhibit
magnesium uptake.

> > Regards, Larry
>
> Larry-- I read your abstracts (and others before about
> magnesium and deficiency). I've seen magnesium deficiency,
> both with obvious clinical
effects
> and "laboratory" deficiency without obvious clinical
> manifestations. The question is, at what point does an
> individual benefit from
supplementation?
> This issue is appropriate whenever we start saying
> supplement x works when
there
> is a "deficiency". Pete

I've seen estimates of 10-70% of people being magnesium
deficient. It really depends on your perspective upon the
issue, how you define the terms. Westernized medicine seems to
hold that a deficiency in a nutrient only exists if clinical
manifestations exist. For example, if solely to prevent
scurvy, only 10's of mg of vitamin C are required daily.
Optimal functioning with respect to vitamin C may lie in g/day
range. The flaw in our conceptualization is that there is no
way to prove optimal functioning. Certainly, symptomatic
subjects should be treated even if laboratory parameters seem
normal. If it looks like a duck..... I know of a number of
people with clinical manifestations of thyroid dysfunction
remaining untreated because of "normal" TSH levels. That's
another topic, however.

With something like magnesium, which functions almost like a
silent partner in concert with other nutrients, compartmental
deficiencies may well exist despite "approved" blood
concentrations. I used that word, "approved", because we do
not know just how variable individual requirements for
nutrients really are. Moreover, standardization of the norm
may well have included magnesium-deficient subjects. We don't
know enough to define norms rigidly, IMHO.

If an individual experiments with supplemental nutrition, and
finds better health thereby, that is more important than
whether or not the supplemental dose exceeds arbitrary
concepts such as RDA.

There are certain issues which must be raised when considering
relatively high doses of any nutrient. For example, impaired
renal function might make magnesium supplementation dangerous,
for a particular individual. When we collapse any study, of
any medical intervention, down to its most basic level, we are
dealing with individuals. Applying generalizations to
individuals as an argument against "doing the experiment" is
unsupportable.

Regards, Larry

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow InLimbo rambled on about "Re:
Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or anyone else
please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful than a
>sugar pill for treating depression.

Actually, "St Johns Wort was recently shown to be less useful
than a sugar pill for treating [MAJOR] depression" by "the
establishment" who gleefully spent tons of money to prove
something that we already know. :-(

St Johns Wort is recommended for treating "MILD to MODERATE"
depression, ... ONLY.

Just my opinion, but I am right as usual. :-)

And Larry Hoover, Mind your own Damn business, this time!!!
--
John Gohde, Achieving good Health is an Art, NOT a Science!

Health-with-Attitude is a support group for people trying to
follow a Healthy Lifestyle.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Health-with-Attitude/

[Larry Hoov]

"John 'the Man'" <DeMan[70]@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9fhhusnpdhb63j6h6k9q8tol90ifh3mfv@4ax.com...
> And Larry Hoover, Mind your own Damn business, this time!!!

John, you twit, the original question was specifically
directed to me. Mind your own business.

[Larry Hoov]

"pbeyer" <pbeyer@kumc.edu> wrote in message
news:3D188539.3D426918@kumc.edu...
> Larry-- I read your abstracts (and others before about
> magnesium and deficiency). I've seen magnesium deficiency,
> both with obvious clinical
effects
> and "laboratory" deficiency without obvious clinical
> manifestations. The question is, at what point does an
> individual benefit from
supplementation?
> This issue is appropriate whenever we start saying
> supplement x works when
there
> is a "deficiency". Pete
>

A thought-provoking essay on the concept of "nutrient":

http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/hoffer.html

[Pbeyer]

Larry Hoover wrote:

> "pbeyer" <pbeyer@kumc.edu> wrote in message
> news:3D188539.3D426918@kumc.edu...
> > Larry-- I read your abstracts (and others before about
> > magnesium and deficiency). I've seen magnesium deficiency,
> > both with obvious clinical
> effects
> > and "laboratory" deficiency without obvious clinical
> > manifestations. The question is, at what point does an
> > individual benefit from
> supplementation?
> > This issue is appropriate whenever we start saying
> > supplement x works when
> there
> > is a "deficiency". Pete
> >
>
> A thought-provoking essay on the concept of "nutrient":
>
> http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/hoffer.html

I understand that many nutrients may have value beyond
resolving the most basic deficiency disease. The new approach
by scientists is to evaluate the current literature and
determine when a nutrient not only cures a specific
deficiency but also when it might also be helpful in
preventing or resolving other health-related problems. In the
latter case, I see lots of folks in the Western countries who
eat less magnesium (or other nutrients) without obvious
clinical or laboratory signs. I like to see studies in which
large numbers of folks who ate less ( without obvious signs
of inadequacy) were compared to people who ate (or were
supplemented with) more of the stuff to see if some problem
was resolved or prevented when all other factors were
accounted for-- like possible differences in age, gender,
etc. Any of those around ? Pete

[Larry Hoov]

"pbeyer" <pbeyer@kumc.edu> wrote in message
news:3D18C48A.F9C86E3B@kumc.edu...
>
> I understand that many nutrients may have value beyond
> resolving the most
basic
> deficiency disease. The new approach by scientists is to
> evaluate the
current
> literature and determine when a nutrient not only cures a
> specific
deficiency
> but also when it might also be helpful in preventing or
> resolving other health-related problems. In the latter case,
> I see lots of folks in the
Western
> countries who eat less magnesium (or other nutrients)
> without obvious
clinical
> or laboratory signs. I like to see studies in which large
> numbers of
folks who
> ate less ( without obvious signs of inadequacy) were
> compared to people
who ate
> (or were supplemented with) more of the stuff to see if some
> problem was resolved or prevented when all other factors
> were accounted for-- like
possible
> differences in age, gender, etc. Any of those around ? Pete

Not that I've seen. I don't think we're that far along the
curve yet. Anecdote and inference is all I've had to go on.

Larry

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow Larry Hoover rambled on about
"Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - Larry Hoover or anyone else
please help." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

Your comments are retarded as usual.

[John 'The]

Once upon a time, our fellow Larry Hoover rambled on about
"Re: Anxiety/Depression - Herbal - ." Our champion
De-Medicalizing in sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>"John 'the Man'" <DeMan[70]@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:b9fhhusnpdhb63j6h6k9q8tol90ifh3mfv@4ax.com...
>> And Larry Hoover, Mind your own Damn business, this time!!!

>John, you twit, the original question was specifically
>directed to me. Mind your own business.

Spoken like the true Megalomaniacs that you Academics are!

The final determination of what is best for the patient is
both the right and responsibility of the individual patient.
--
John Gohde, Patient Empowerment Advocate
http://home.naturalhealthperspective.com/empowerment.html
Email: Ngs@NaturalHealthPerspective.com
www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering
De-Medicalization by handing back the power to the people,
encouraging self care and autonomy, and resisting the
categorization of life's problems as medical.

[Dr. Christ]

Do you take any nutritional supplements? It sounds like you
may have a B vitamin deficiency. Also, what is your diet like?
If you eat procesed foods with food additives in them, you may
be reacting to the additives.
--
Christine H. Farlow, D.C. KISS For Health Publishing
Specializing in brief, practical and easy-to-use nutrition
information www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00084.htm
www.healthyeatingadvisor.com
dr.cfarlow@cox.net

"Evelyn Ruut" <mama_lion@ulster.net> wrote in message
news:6VXQ8.9978$17.4401068@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
>
> "Haresh Ramchandani" <haresh_r@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com...
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> > General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> > this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> > week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as
> > opposed to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a
> > week and will start Yoga once a week now.
> >
> > For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort
> > - I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> > before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
> >
> > My symtoms are:
> >
> > ~ Constant feeling of impending doom/crisis/argument
> > especially when I awake ~ Tremors in my hands ~ Fatigue
> > throughout the day ~ Easily startled
> >
> > In the last 2 weeks I am not sure if I am seeing any
> > results as such with SJW, but I have been sleeping easier
> > and deeper and waking up wihout a problem. I did not have
> > sleep issues before but couldnt wake up on time - always
> > felt like I could sleep my troubles away.
> >
> > I have read somewhere about Rhodiola Rosea - I was
> > wondering if I should try this out along with SJW or wait
> > for the 6 weeks of SJW before trying this.
> >
> > Larry, I think you have tried this - did this work for
> > you ??
> >
> > Also does anyone have any suggestions I could try.
> >
> > Any assistance anyone can provide would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Thansk & best regards,
> >
> > Haresh
>
>
> Dear Haresh,
>
> Just a couple of all natural suggestions.
>
> First of all, don't forget that the best way to fight
> depression is with exercise, which induces the brain to
> release natural antidepressant endorphins.
>
> Take care of yourself.
>
> Be kind to yourself.
>
> Eat at regular times and sleep at regular times. Nothing
> caffeinated at night. Especially be careful with soda's.
> They are often full of
caffeine
> which exacerbate anxiety.
>
> Go to bed early to be sure you are getting enough sleep.
>
> Avoid caffeine from coffee, tea is better instead... has
> less of a
jangling
> effect on the nerves.
>
> Meditation is very helpful.
>
> Stay away from alcohol. You will be up while you are
> drinking it, but
down
> the next day.
>
> Don't think too much.
>
> Get out into nature and take long walks. No cell phone or
> music - just silence and nature.
>
> Being near water especially is good. Walk near a river
> or a lake.
>
> Try Bach rescue remedy (from the health food store) when you
> feel anxiety.
>
> Believe in your own inherent goodness and open your mind to
> a higher spiritual power.
>
> Good luck, Evelyn
>

[Gym Bob]

Sounds excellent. retrain your brain chemistry!

"PJALCH" <pjalch@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020627022410.21857.00000475@mb-ml.aol.com...
> The best treatment for depression and anxiety has been
> used by all
successful
> members in my family for decades. Those who haven't used the
> method have worsened over time, some have committed suicide.
> The method takes focus
and
> discipline, but for limited periods of time per day -
> starting at ten
minutes
> and reaching 30 minutes.
>
> Choose one positive aspect about yourself, your career, your
> family, your
past,
> or your present situation (often at the start it is just
> being alive).
Write
> down that one thing at night. In the morning spend 3
> minutes before
leaving
> the house just concentrating and focusing on that 1 aspect.
> Spend 3 more minutes focused in midday, and 3 at night.
> Increase the time by 1 minute
per
> session per week, until you get to 3 - 10 minute sessions
> per day.
Whenever
> the anxiety/depression starts to take hold, think about how
> you were able
to
> focus on the 1 positive issue for that day.
>
> Be patient. Most of us have had years of suffering, and want
> a quick fix,
or a
> "fresh start." You can do it, and you must support yourself
> and feel
proud
> every day that you make the effort to get better. Patting
> yourself for
working
> on yourself has a synergistic effect, and really
> increases the
effectiveness of
> the self therapy you will be doing. As for herbs/ meds/etc,
> if you choose to use these to help you along, then
be
> proud of that as well.

[Dr. Christ]

The first thing to look at with anxiety and depression is
diet. Are you eating processed foods abundant with food
additives? Are you using artificial sweeteners, like
aspartame? Are you allergic/sensitive to foods you are eating
or products you are using for personal care?

You need to find the cause of the anxiety/depression rather
than just take a few supplements to give it a "band aid."

If you eat junk food, processed food or anything that comes
in a package you need to read the label and get rid of all
the chemical additives and processed stuff. You may even
need to get rid of all the harmful chemicals in your
personal care products.

A "band aid" (supplement) for symptomatic relief may be
helpful until you find the cause of the problem, but it is
not a solution. You have to eliminate the cause of the
problem to solve it.

--
Christine H. Farlow, D.C. KISS For Health Publishing
Specializing in brief, practical and easy-to-use nutrition
information www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00084.htm
www.healthyeatingadvisor.com
dr.cfarlow@cox.net

"pbeyer" <pbeyer@kumc.edu> wrote in message
news:3D188539.3D426918@kumc.edu...
>
>
> Larry Hoover wrote:
>
> > "Faisal" <fuz@nospamgmx.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1024516443.74031.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...
> > > The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety and
> > > depression.
Some
> > > ppl may develop probs as a result of a deficiency. Take
Calcium/Magnesium
> > > at a 2:1 ratio- twice as much calcium.
> >
> > Magnesium is an essential nutrient, required for the
> > proper functioning
of
> > over 300 enzymes, including those involved in the
> > synthesis of neurotranmsitters. Magnesium deficiency is
> > correlated with type 2
diabetes,
> > asthma, anxiety disorders, chronic hyperexcitability (as
> > seen in PTSD), weakness and fatigue (CFS), neuromuscular
> > disorders (FMS), depression,
and
> > more. Among other effects, magnesium deficiency disrupts
> > the synthesis
of
> > dopamine, leads to hyper-excitability of NMDA
> > receptors, and
down-regulates
> > opioid and GABA receptors.
> >
> > The best supplements are amino acid or HVP protein
> > chelates. 300 mg/day elemental magnesium, or more.
> > Concurrent calcium supplementation is contra-indicated.
> >
> > Regards, Larry
>
> Larry-- I read your abstracts (and others before about
> magnesium and deficiency). I've seen magnesium deficiency,
> both with obvious clinical
effects
> and "laboratory" deficiency without obvious clinical
> manifestations. The question is, at what point does an
> individual benefit from
supplementation?
> This issue is appropriate whenever we start saying
> supplement x works when
there
> is a "deficiency". Pete

[Gym Bob]

In the 2-3 years that would take I would probably be hung by
the neck somewhere. Been there done that.......Funny my
parents never ate the stuff I ate. they lived on
vegetables...always knew about nutrition and good eating.

I got my mother from the psycho wing of the
crisis unit last year and put her in a
home. She is now on antianxiety meds after
her whole life of sufferring with this
shit. She is doing much better. She can
take an elevator with somebody else to push
the buttons and reasure her it won't run
away and shoot through the roof now. She
can walk though a crowd of people if you
push her or hold her hand now. her totally
unrelated pains subside when she is drugged
to the point of dopiness. That is too much
but she's 77 and probably too late for a
cure now. We comprimise.

Don't get me wrong...I have searched every nutrition book on
my own cure. I totally believe in nutrition and I gobble many
supplements each day, juice etc..but some of this shit is
genetic ...the brain needs rewiring with med or psycho
retraining.

"Dr. Christine H. Farlow" <dr.cfarlow@cox.net> wrote in
message news:rBJS8.50430$Ok1.3900289@news2.west.cox.net...
> The first thing to look at with anxiety and depression is
> diet. Are you eating processed foods abundant with food
> additives? Are you using artificial sweeteners, like
> aspartame? Are you allergic/sensitive to foods you are
> eating or products you are using for personal care?
>
> You need to find the cause of the anxiety/depression rather
> than just take
a
> few supplements to give it a "band aid."
>
> If you eat junk food, processed food or anything that comes
> in a package
you
> need to read the label and get rid of all the chemical
> additives and processed stuff. You may even need to get rid
> of all the harmful chemicals in your personal care products.
>
> A "band aid" (supplement) for symptomatic relief may be
> helpful until you find the cause of the problem, but it is
> not a solution. You have to eliminate the cause of the
> problem to solve it.
>
> --
> Christine H. Farlow, D.C. KISS For Health Publishing
> Specializing in brief, practical and easy-to-use nutrition
> information www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00084.htm
> www.healthyeatingadvisor.com
> dr.cfarlow@cox.net
>
>
> "pbeyer" <pbeyer@kumc.edu> wrote in message
> news:3D188539.3D426918@kumc.edu...
> >
> >
> > Larry Hoover wrote:
> >
> > > "Faisal" <fuz@nospamgmx.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:1024516443.74031.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...
> > > > The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety
> > > > and depression.
> Some
> > > > ppl may develop probs as a result of a deficiency.
> > > > Take
> Calcium/Magnesium
> > > > at a 2:1 ratio- twice as much calcium.
> > >
> > > Magnesium is an essential nutrient, required for the
> > > proper
functioning
> of
> > > over 300 enzymes, including those involved in the
> > > synthesis of neurotranmsitters. Magnesium deficiency is
> > > correlated with type 2
> diabetes,
> > > asthma, anxiety disorders, chronic hyperexcitability (as
> > > seen in
PTSD),
> > > weakness and fatigue (CFS), neuromuscular disorders
> > > (FMS), depression,
> and
> > > more. Among other effects, magnesium deficiency disrupts
> > > the synthesis
> of
> > > dopamine, leads to hyper-excitability of NMDA
> > > receptors, and
> down-regulates
> > > opioid and GABA receptors.
> > >
> > > The best supplements are amino acid or HVP protein
> > > chelates. 300
mg/day
> > > elemental magnesium, or more. Concurrent calcium
> > > supplementation is contra-indicated.
> > >
> > > Regards, Larry
> >
> > Larry-- I read your abstracts (and others before about
> > magnesium and deficiency). I've seen magnesium deficiency,
> > both with obvious clinical
> effects
> > and "laboratory" deficiency without obvious clinical
> > manifestations.
The
> > question is, at what point does an individual benefit from
> supplementation?
> > This issue is appropriate whenever we start saying
> > supplement x works
when
> there
> > is a "deficiency". Pete
>

[Jimbo]

"Dr. Christine H. Farlow" <dr.cfarlow@cox.net> wrote in
message news:NNIS8.50383$Ok1.3895373@news2.west.cox.net...
> Do you take any nutritional supplements? It sounds like you
> may have a B vitamin deficiency. Also, what is your diet
> like? If you eat procesed
foods
> with food additives in them, you may be reacting to the
> additives.

Bullshit! You're a moron!!!

[Jimbo]

"Dr. Christine H. Farlow" <dr.cfarlow@cox.net> wrote in
message news:rBJS8.50430$Ok1.3900289@news2.west.cox.net...
> The first thing to look at with anxiety and depression
> is diet.

Bullshit! You're a moron!!!

Are you
> eating processed foods abundant with food additives? Are you
> using artificial sweeteners, like aspartame? Are you
> allergic/sensitive to foods you are eating or products you
> are using for personal care?
>
> You need to find the cause of the anxiety/depression rather
> than just take
a
> few supplements to give it a "band aid."
>
> If you eat junk food, processed food or anything that comes
> in a package
you
> need to read the label and get rid of all the chemical
> additives and processed stuff. You may even need to get rid
> of all the harmful chemicals in your personal care products.
>
> A "band aid" (supplement) for symptomatic relief may be
> helpful until you find the cause of the problem, but it is
> not a solution. You have to eliminate the cause of the
> problem to solve it.
>
> --
> Christine H. Farlow, D.C. KISS For Health Publishing
> Specializing in brief, practical and easy-to-use nutrition
> information www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00084.htm
> www.healthyeatingadvisor.com
> dr.cfarlow@cox.net
>
>
> "pbeyer" <pbeyer@kumc.edu> wrote in message
> news:3D188539.3D426918@kumc.edu...
> >
> >
> > Larry Hoover wrote:
> >
> > > "Faisal" <fuz@nospamgmx.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:1024516443.74031.0@dyke.uk.clara.net...
> > > > The minerals calcium and magnesium help with anxiety
> > > > and depression.
> Some
> > > > ppl may develop probs as a result of a deficiency.
> > > > Take
> Calcium/Magnesium
> > > > at a 2:1 ratio- twice as much calcium.
> > >
> > > Magnesium is an essential nutrient, required for the
> > > proper
functioning
> of
> > > over 300 enzymes, including those involved in the
> > > synthesis of neurotranmsitters. Magnesium deficiency is
> > > correlated with type 2
> diabetes,
> > > asthma, anxiety disorders, chronic hyperexcitability (as
> > > seen in
PTSD),
> > > weakness and fatigue (CFS), neuromuscular disorders
> > > (FMS), depression,
> and
> > > more. Among other effects, magnesium deficiency disrupts
> > > the synthesis
> of
> > > dopamine, leads to hyper-excitability of NMDA
> > > receptors, and
> down-regulates
> > > opioid and GABA receptors.
> > >
> > > The best supplements are amino acid or HVP protein
> > > chelates. 300
mg/day
> > > elemental magnesium, or more. Concurrent calcium
> > > supplementation is contra-indicated.
> > >
> > > Regards, Larry
> >
> > Larry-- I read your abstracts (and others before about
> > magnesium and deficiency). I've seen magnesium deficiency,
> > both with obvious clinical
> effects
> > and "laboratory" deficiency without obvious clinical
> > manifestations.
The
> > question is, at what point does an individual benefit from
> supplementation?
> > This issue is appropriate whenever we start saying
> > supplement x works
when
> there
> > is a "deficiency". Pete
>

[Victoria]

haresh_r@yahoo.com (Haresh Ramchandani) wrote in message
news:<9af23d87.0206182230.701ec58@posting.google.com>...
> Hello all,
>
> I have recently been diagnosed with mild depression &
> General Anxiety Disorder (even though I am sure I have had
> this for a long time now) - I see a pshychologist once a
> week and have opted for the natural herbal cures as opposed
> to the med-meds available. I work out 3-4 times a week and
> will start Yoga once a week now.
>
> For about 2 weeks now I have started to take St.Johns Wort -
> I know I am supposed to take this for at least 4-6 weeks
> before I see any results or consdier dismissing it.
I've had anxiety disorder and clinical depression in the past.
SJW worked for the anxiety but not for the depression from
what I could tell. I then took Paxil which worked a miracle
for my mental health except I couldn't 'feel' anything and the
side effects were severe in my case; numbness, sleeplessness,
nervousness, and mood swings.

Victoria