Could Eating Soya Be Harmful To Men?

[Raymond]

Could Eating Soya Be Harmful To Men?

Soya and soya derived products are a staple food in many Asian
countries. Today, soya is believed to have wide-ranging health
benefits ranging from lowering blood pressure to cancer
prevention to maintaining healthy skin. But there is an
additional effect of eating soya that should be of concern to
men, especially men from an Asian background, who are used to
eating soya regularly.

In the West, doctors are increasingly advocating the
consumption of soya to women as a supplement to hormone
replacement therapy. This is because soya, when consumed, is
believed to act in a similar way to the female sex hormone
oestrogen. This is explained by a British doctor on the
respected health website http://www.netdoctor.co.uk:

"Your friend is right to say that Tofu (soya) contains
phytoestrogens. You are also correct to assume that these
substances might have a beneficial effect upon menopausal
symptoms and the development of osteoporosis. Unfortunately,
clear evidence on the effects of different phytoestrogens and
the quantities that are required for a beneficial response is
not currently available.

Phytoestrogens are plant substances that are similar in
structure and function to oestradiol, the main female sex
hormone. The two main classes of phytoestrogens are lignanes
and isoflavones. Lignanes are found in oilseeds and to a
lesser extent in cereals, vegetables, legumes and fruits.
Isoflavones are found in soybeans, chickpeas, legumes and
clovers. Populations that consume a diet high in isoflavones,
the Japanese for example, have a lower incidence of menopausal
symptoms, cardiovascular disease and osteoporosis. These
populations also have a lower incidence of cancers of the
breast, uterus, colon, and ovary. There is currently a lot of
interest in phytoestrogens, and it is possible that these
substances could be used in the future for the treatment of
menopausal symptoms." - Dr Joanne Lee, GP

Whilst soya may be extremely beneficial to menopausal
women, the benefit to men of eating soya is, at the very
least, debatable. How many men would voluntarily eat
something if they knew it was akin to ingesting a dose of
oestrogen? How many parents would feed their developing,
male children soya products, if they knew it might disrupt
their hormonal balance?

Asian men are on average smaller in stature than their male
counterparts. This is particularly noticeable in countries
where soya is consumed heavily
e.g. Japan. In fact, recent increases in average male height
and weight in Asia are believed to stem from the gradual
adoption of western diets (and by implication, a
simultaneous reduction in the consumption of traditional
foods, including soya)

Here is another medical opinion taken from
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk:

"Soya beans contain compounds called isoflavones, which mimic
the effects of the female sex hormone oestrogen. These effects
may help to prevent a number of conditions including the
unpleasant symptoms of the menopause.

It has been suggested that the trend toward lower male
fertility is due to environmental oestrogens, including soya
isoflavones. There is some evidence to show that isoflavones
can disrupt the process of testosterone synthesis and that two
in particular, genstein and daidzein are toxic to human sperm.
Although there is still a significant question mark over
isoflavones affecting male fertility, it is theoretically
possible that they may be contributing to the worldwide
decrease in male fertility." - Dr John Pillinger, GP.

Make of this what you will, but I have almost eliminated soya
completely from my diet, and I would be extremely wary of
feeding it to any developing male children. Food for
thought...

[PLEASE COPY AND FORWARD THIS TO ANYONE YOU KNOW WHO MAY BE
INTERESTED]

[Jojo]

"Raymond" <fake@yahoo.moc> wrote in message
news:B8C11DE7.6689%fake@yahoo.moc...
> Could Eating Soya Be Harmful To Men?

http://www.rense.com/health/soydanger.htm
http://www.rense.com/general9/soys.htm
http://www.rense.com/general4/soys.htm
http://www.rense.com/general6/soyy.htm
http://www.rense.com/general/notsoygood.htm
http://www.rense.com/general16/estrogeninsoy.htm

[Ehre]

I must say, this is truly bizzare...I simply don't know
what to do!

But then again, how did we get a billion Chinese, not to
mention all those Asians over there, if soya's so damned
harmful? Seems like folks would have became extinct a long
time ago....

Thanks for the post.

[Mbansch314]

> Could Eating Soya Be Harmful To Men?

"Raymond"

There appears to be much more variability in the quantity and
quality of human sperm than these is for any other animal
species on this planet.

Problems with male fertility have more than doubled in the
past 30-50 years.

Some argue that this decline is due to exposure of the male
fetus to phytoestrogens in utero.

Lancet 1993 341:1392-1395. PMID:8098802.

In an adult male, the dietary intake of phytoestrogens does
not appear to have any significant impact on sperm quantity or
sperm quality.

Clin Sci 2001 100:613-618. PMID:11352776

Phytoestrogens appear to offer protection from developing
prostate cancer.

Zinc probably plays a much bigger role in male sperm count and
quality than anything else in the diet of man.

The man made chemicals, including the estrogen insecticides,
probably affect male reproductive health much more than the
natural phytoestrogens do.

Every thing that I have ever read suggests that as the male
fetus is forming, it's probably a good idea to try to
protect it from high levels of natural phytoestrogens but I
still think that the man made chemcials pose much more of a
threat to male reproductive health than the natural
phytoestrogens do.

[Peter Fack]

In article <B8C11DE7.6689%fake@yahoo.moc>, Raymond
<fake@yahoo.moc> wrote:

>Could Eating Soya Be Harmful To Men?
>
>Asian men are on average smaller in stature than their male
>counterparts. This is particularly noticeable in countries
>where soya is consumed heavily
>e.g. Japan. In fact, recent increases in average male height
> and weight in Asia are believed to stem from the gradual
> adoption of western diets (and by implication, a
> simultaneous reduction in the consumption of traditional
> foods, including soya)

It's not an advantage per se to be big and fat. The gradual
adaption of Western diet habits by Asian immigrants helps them
also to get more breast and prostate cancer.

>Here is another medical opinion taken from
>http://www.netdoctor.co.uk:
>
>"Soya beans contain compounds called isoflavones, which mimic
>the effects of the female sex hormone oestrogen. These
>effects may help to prevent a number of conditions including
>the unpleasant symptoms of the menopause.

Reread the term "mimic". The substantial estrogenic power of
phyto-agents is very low, therefore some call them weak
estrogens. When men get older, the testosterone is decreasing.
The estrogen increases slowly pushing the system out of
balance. So-called phyto-estrogenes dock to the relevant
receptors, so the system cannot build more real estrogen.

>It has been suggested that the trend toward lower male
>fertility is due to environmental oestrogens, including
>soya isoflavones. There is some evidence to show that
>isoflavones can disrupt the process of testosterone
>synthesis and that two in particular, genstein and daidzein
>are toxic to human sperm. Although there is still a
>significant question mark over isoflavones affecting male
>fertility, it is theoretically possible that they may be
>contributing to the worldwide decrease in male fertility."
>- Dr John Pillinger, GP.

Yes, and e.g. in China this isn't even enough. They have to
kill babies to squeeze the birth rate.

From SOCI 647, Lecture 2, Spring, 2001, Page 9

"In 1998, the World TFR (Total fertility rate) was 2.9, 3.2
for the developing countries, and 1.6 for the developed
countries. Specific values of the TFR around the year 2000
ranged from highs of 7.5 (Niger), 6.9 (Uganda) and 7.0
(Somalia) to lows of
1.3 (Japan, Lithuania, Austria, Germany, Belarus, Hungary,
Romania, Ukraine, Greece), 1.2 (Estonia, Latvia, Russia,
Andorra, Italy, San Marino, Slovenia, Spain, Georgia,
Macao), and 1.1 (Bulgaria, Czech Republic), and 1.0 (Hong
Kong. The TFR around the year 2000 for the US was 2.1, for
China 1.8, for Taiwan 1.5, for Hong Kong 1.0, for South
Korea 1.5, and for North Korea 2.3."

In Bulgaria, Italy, Slovenia, Spain, Czech Republic they don't
eat soy. The keywords are (un)developed countries, rural/urban
and more socio-economic items - last not least religion. And -
again - switching to Western diet. Try to find some older
statistics.

Journal of Biosocial Science

1.1.10 - English - D.A. COLEMAN, Department of Applied Social
Studies, University of Oxford, Oxford (U.K.)

Trends in Fertility and Intermarriage among Immigrant
Populations in Western Europe as Measures of Integration
(p. 107-136)

Demographic data on fertility and intermarriage are useful
measures of integration and assimilation. This paper reviews
trends in total fertility and intermarriage of foreign
populations in Europe and compares them with the trends in
fertility of the host population and the sending country. In
almost all cases fertility has declined. The fertility of most
European immigrant populations and of some West Indian and
non-Muslim Asian populations has declined to a period level at
or below that of the host society. Muslim populations from
Turkey, North Africa and South Asia have shown the least
decline. Intermarriage is proceeding faster than might be
expected in immigrant populations which seemed in economic
terms fo be imperfectly integrated. Up to 40% of West Indians
born in the UK, for example, appear to have white partners as
do high proportions of young Maghrebians in France. (WESTERN
EUROPE, IMMIGRANTS, MIGRANT ASSIMILATION, FERTILITY DECLINE,
MIXED MARRIAGE)

I like GPs, but statistics is certainly not in their CV.

Here is another one from British Journal of Cancer, 83(1),
July 2000 ,-)

"The study measured testosterone levels in 696 Oxford
University men. Of the study participants, 233 were vegan (ate
no animal products) and 237 were vegetarian (ate milk and
dairy products). The remaining 237 subjects were men who ate
meat on most days of the week...vegans had higher testosterone
levels than vegetarians and meat eaters."

Peter

[Louise Bre]

Raymond <fake@yahoo.moc> wrote:

> Asian men are on average smaller in stature than their male
> counterparts. This is particularly noticeable in countries
> where soya is consumed heavily e.g. Japan. In fact, recent
> increases in average male height and weight in Asia are
> believed to stem from the gradual adoption of western
> diets...

I've been told that the recent increase in height of Japanese
children is due to the adoption of Western lifestyles, but not
specifically Western diet. Most of the increase is in
leg-length, and it's been suggested that may be because
children no longer spend long hours in the *seiza* position
(sitting back on the heels), which tends to impede the flow of
nutrients in the bloodstream to the legs.

_____________________________________________________________-
___________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com) If you
want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my
Yahoo address!

[Geowcherry]

There's a "dark side" to soy. Look at the following.

George

Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption.

White LR, Petrovitch H, Ross GW, Masaki K, Hardman J, Nelson
J, Davis D, Markesbery W.

National Institute on Aging, NIH, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To examine associations of midlife tofu consumption
with brain function and structural changes in late life.
METHODS: The design utilized surviving participants of a
longitudinal study established in 1965 for research on heart
disease, stroke, and cancer. Information on consumption of
selected foods was available from standardized interviews
conducted 1965-1967 and 1971-1974. A 4-level composite intake
index defined "low-low" consumption as fewer than two servings
of tofu per week in 1965 and no tofu in the prior week in
1971. Men who reported two or more servings per week at both
interviews were defined as "high-high" consumers. Intermediate
or less consistent "low" and "high" consumption levels were
also defined. Cognitive functioning was tested at the
1991-1993 examination, when participants were aged 71 to 93
years (n =
3734). Brain atrophy was assessed using neuroimage (n = 574)
and autopsy (n =
3735) information. Cognitive function data were also analyzed
for wives of a sample of study participants (n = 502)
who had been living with the participants at the time of
their dietary interviews. RESULTS: Poor cognitive test
performance, enlargement of ventricles and low brain
weight were each significantly and independently
associated with higher midlife tofu consumption. A
similar association of midlife tofu intake with poor
late life cognitive test scores was also observed among
wives of cohort members, using the husband's answers to
food frequency questions as proxy for the wife's
consumption. Statistically significant associations were
consistently demonstrated in linear and logistic
multivariate regression models. Odds ratios comparing
endpoints among "high-high" with "low-low" consumers
were mostly in the range of 1.6 to 2.0. CONCLUSIONS: In
this population, higher midlife tofu consumption was
independently associated with indicators of cognitive
impairment and brain atrophy in late life.

PMID: 10763906 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Jojo]

"mbansch314" <mbansch314@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jr1n8.12597$DX6.216916@news2.east.cox.net...
> > Could Eating Soya Be Harmful To Men?
>
> "Raymond"
>
> There appears to be much more variability in the quantity
> and quality of human sperm than these is for any other
> animal species on this planet.
>
> Problems with male fertility have more than doubled in the
> past 30-50
years.
>
> Some argue that this decline is due to exposure of the male
> fetus to phytoestrogens in utero.
>
> Lancet 1993 341:1392-1395. PMID:8098802.
>
> In an adult male, the dietary intake of phytoestrogens does
> not appear to have any significant impact on sperm quantity
> or sperm quality.
>
> Clin Sci 2001 100:613-618. PMID:11352776
>
> Phytoestrogens appear to offer protection from developing
> prostate cancer.
>
> Zinc probably plays a much bigger role in male sperm count
> and quality
than
> anything else in the diet of man.
>
> The man made chemicals, including the estrogen insecticides,
> probably
affect
> male reproductive health much more than the natural
> phytoestrogens do.
>
> Every thing that I have ever read suggests that as the male
> fetus is forming, it's probably a good idea to try to
> protect it from high levels
of
> natural phytoestrogens but I still think that the man made
> chemcials pose much more of a threat to male reproductive
> health than the natural phytoestrogens do.

Probably correct, but from what I've read, there is still not
enough research in this area. One thing I've heard is that
pre-op transvestites taking quantities of OTC herbal
supplements, like Black Cohosh, Wild Yam, etc., can get doses
of phytoestrogens high enough to seriously foul up their sperm
count. And we do know that such products can help women with
hot-flash symptoms by moderating Estrogen levels. These
natural plant based extracts are extremely powerful. Soy is
considered one of the weaker sources among the list.

>

[Jojo]

"Peter Fackelmann" <PeterFackelmann@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:B8C2850C9668134237@0.0.0.0...
> In article <B8C11DE7.6689%fake@yahoo.moc>, Raymond
> <fake@yahoo.moc> wrote:
>
> >Could Eating Soya Be Harmful To Men?
> >
> >Asian men are on average smaller in stature than their male
> >counterparts. This is particularly noticeable in countries
> >where soya is consumed
heavily
> >e.g. Japan. In fact, recent increases in average male
> > height and weight
in
> >Asia are believed to stem from the gradual adoption of
> >western diets (and
by
> >implication, a simultaneous reduction in the consumption of
> >traditional foods, including soya)
>
> It's not an advantage per se to be big and fat.
>
> The gradual adaption of Western diet habits by Asian
> immigrants helps them also to get more breast and
> prostate cancer.

The "western diet" is too general for any accurate description
of the problem. For example, Mediteranian diets, e.g. Greek,
has been indentified as generally very healthy, one that has
been connected with low rates of heart disease and other
positive health benefits. Yogurt and olive oil particularly
have been mentioned time and time again as two staple food
sources that have positive health effects. Ditto for certain
fish, and red wine. This _is_ a "western diet", relatively
speaking, yet this is not what you're really speaking about.
What you're probably speaking about, at least in part, is
"Fast Food Culture", of which the US is ground zero. Diets
high in red meat, fried red meat, french fries, high
carb/starch buns, rolls, pies, and other highly processed
foods, etc., is largely to blame here. So are the hormones
that are in the meat, and the milk. In a more general sense,
saturated animal fats have been linked to breast cancer, and
hydrogenated oils and trans-fatty acids have been linked to
many different health problems, including heart disease,
diabetes, and immune system dysfunction.

> >Here is another medical opinion taken from
> >http://www.netdoctor.co.uk:
> >
> >"Soya beans contain compounds called isoflavones, which
> >mimic the effects
of
> >the female sex hormone oestrogen. These effects may help to
> >prevent a
number
> >of conditions including the unpleasant symptoms of the
> >menopause.
>
> Reread the term "mimic". The substantial estrogenic power of
> phyto-agents is very low, therefore some call them weak
> estrogens. When men get older, the testosterone is
> decreasing. The estrogen increases slowly pushing the system
> out of balance. So-called phyto-estrogenes dock to the
> relevant receptors, so the system cannot build more real
> estrogen.

There is still much uncertainty in the way these
estrogen-like compounds behave in the body, and the research
is limited. 10 years ago, estrogen supplements were viewed by
much of the medical community as beneficial to older women,
especially menopausal women. Then, some in the medical
community had a change of heart, deciding that estrogen could
actually increase a woman's chances for breast cancer. I
don't have the research handy, this is something I recall
reading over the years.

Phyto-agents can be very toxic in high-doses. And there are
some in the medical and research community that believe they
can cause cancer.

>
> >It has been suggested that the trend toward lower male
> >fertility is due
to
> >environmental oestrogens, including soya isoflavones. There
> >is some
evidence
> >to show that isoflavones can disrupt the process of
> >testosterone
synthesis
> >and that two in particular, genstein and daidzein are toxic
> >to human
sperm.
> >Although there is still a significant question mark over
> >isoflavones affecting male fertility, it is theoretically
> >possible that they may be contributing to the worldwide
> >decrease in male fertility." - Dr John Pillinger, GP.

Getting back to soy, the arguments over any impact on sperm
count is just one of the supposed problems with soy some
researches point to. There are others (some of which don't
necessarily have to do with soy as a nutrient, but in the
way it's prepared). Quotes taken from above listed URLs -
in thread:

-"potent enzyme inhibitors, which block the action of trypsin
and other enzymes needed for protein digestion."

-"Soy products also contain another chemical, hemaglutinin
which promotes clumping of red blood cells. These clumped red
cells are unable to fully take up oxygen and carry it in the
blood stream to all tissues. Hemaglutinin has also been
observed to act as a growth depressant. Fermentation
deactivates these enzyme inhibitors, or at least reduces the
amounts present."

-"Soybeans are also high in phytic acids which is present in
the bran of hulls of all seeds. This material blocks the
uptake of essential minerals in the intestinal tract,
including such important ones as calcium, magnesium, iron
and especially zinc. Again, only the process of fermentation
will significantly reduce the phytate content of soy
products. Soybeans have a higher content of phytates than
any other legumes, making them of questionable safety and
nutritional value. "

-"During the production of soy milk, in order to remove as
much of the trypsin inhibitor as possible, the puréed beans
are soaked in an alkaline solution, then heated to about 115º
C. in a pressure cooker. Unfortunately, even though most (but
not all) of the antinutrients are destroyed, this processing
also denatures the proteins, so the remaining soy protein is
very difficult to digest. The phytate content remains in soy
milk to block the uptake of essential minerals. Worse, the
alkaline soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine,
and reduces the cystine (an amino acid) content in the
soybean. Without cystine, the protein complex is virtually
useless unless the diet is fortified with meat, eggs or dairy
products, an unlikely situation for vegetarians."

-"By April 29 of this year, Fox News published its version of
the soy debate, acknowledging that soy products like tofu and
tempeh have "moved out of the vegetarian ghetto," but also
warned that some experts claimed that "soy can mimic powerful
human hormones and yield unpredictable results." The wind was
changing. Was the soybean craze just a fad? Fox News quoted
Dr. Lon White as saying that soy isoflavones, one of the
active hormonal ingredients in soy, are "true drugs that are
sold without warning." [Fox News April 29,
2000]"

-"David Zava, PhD, a biochemist, chimes in on the anti-soy
bandwagon in the www.JohnLeeMD.com newsletter. A specialist in
breast cancer, Zava accurately points out that occasional soy
consumption is probably the best course to get the benefits
out of soy without any undesirable side effects. But he,
unfairly and inaccurately characterizes some of the components
of soy as being nothing short of poison. Zava says soy
contains allergens, mineral blockers, enzyme inhibitors,
hormone modifiers, and iodine blockers that interfere with
normal thyroid function. Zava says soy is a medicine in
moderation and a potential poison in excess.
[www.johnleemd.com] The wording is alarming. Soy is beginning
to be compared to hemlock. "

There are also some who point to the production process of soy
milk, which in some cases use chemcials containing alumninum,
and as such have been linked to Alzheimers.

/snip/

[Somewhat U]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 07:04:07 +0900, dame_zumari@yahoo.com
(Louise Bremner) wrote:

>I've been told that the recent increase in height of Japanese
>children is due to the adoption of Western lifestyles, but
>not specifically Western diet. Most of the increase is in
>leg-length, and it's been suggested that may be because
>children no longer spend long hours in the *seiza* position
>(sitting back on the heels), which tends to impede the flow
>of nutrients in the bloodstream to the legs.

This, at first blush, looks like a reach.

[Peter Fack]

In article <zj4n8.2871$n8.438@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, "jojo"
<usenet_replies@hotmail.com> wrote:

>The "western diet" is too general for any accurate
>description of the problem. For example, Mediteranian diets,
>e.g. Greek, has been indentified as generally very healthy,

"Western" and "Mediterranean" diets are quite different
indeed. I should have mentioned both. I would never mix them
up.

>There is still much uncertainty in the way these
>estrogen-like compounds behave in the body, and the research
>is limited.

In this moment, the epidemiological data about Asians are
enough for me.

>Phyto-agents can be very toxic in high-doses.

Even NaCl is.

>Zava says soy is a medicine in moderation and a potential
>poison in excess.

Sounds like Hippocrates,-)

Regards

Peter