Niacin

[Arto Raisk]

just trying to get my facts straight re: niacin and the
various types

for example, lef mix contains (the mix w/niacin) each tablet :

Niacin (vitamin B3) (as 53% niacinamide, 40% niacin, 7%
niacinamide ascorbate)

why the different types ? ok, I did read that niacinamide was
created to offset the flush effect of capillaries dilating
and/or histamine response

with Twinlab, it's all niacinamide (either 500 or 1000
mg/caps)

anyone make a 'pure' niacin (not niacinamide) product ?

Arto
--
.

[Paul Chefu]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:57:59 +0200, "Arto Raiskio"
<arto@raiskio.com> wrote:

>anyone make a 'pure' niacin (not niacinamide) product ?

They're all over the place. Most of the major vitamin
suppliers make a pure niacin product - in Canada that includes
Jameison, Organika, Swiss Herbal, and even the local
supermarket no-name supplier. Just look for niacin on the
label - if it contains niacinamide it will be labeled as such.

Paul

[Martin Ban]

>anyone make a 'pure' niacin (not niacinamide) product ?
>
>Arto

Niacinamide is animal niacin. It's can't cause the niacin
flush because it's already been detoxified.

Nicotinic acid is plant niacin. Plants produce it as an
insecticide. If you see the term niacin on a lable, it's all
nicotinic acid.

>lef mix contains (the mix w/niacin) each tablet :
>
>Niacin (vitamin B3) (as 53% niacinamide, 40% niacin, 7%
>niacinamide ascorbate)

>why the different types ?

It's pretty common to see a niacin/niacinamide mix. Nicotinic
acid as a plant insecticide is toxic. Niacinamide has much
less toxicity. If you really want to push niacin without the
flush, you have to use a mix.

No other company that I know of uses niacinamide-ascorbate.
Ascorbate adds quite a bit of volume and it's the most
expensive form of niacin.

Life Extension Foundation Products use mixes and promotions
for their mixes that I don't approve of. They get you to pay a
lot more for a supplement that looks more complete but is all
window dressing.

If you want to use niacin to lower LDL and raise HDL just get
the plain old niacin but watch the dose and remember that just
like the statins, nicotinic acid can cause liver damage.

Marty B "You are what you eat"

[Db]

Martin Banschbach Ph.D. wrote:

>
> If you want to use niacin to lower LDL and raise HDL just
> get the plain old niacin but watch the dose and remember
> that just like the statins, nicotinic acid can cause
> liver damage.
>
>
> Marty B "You are what you eat"

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that it
requires like 2-4 grams of niacin a day to effect cholesterol.
Also, Steve Harris mentioned a study that showed that
combining antioxidants with niacin therapy reduced the
benefits. He speculated that this *may* be due to the
antioxidants reducing liver inflammation that could actually
be the trigger for the body to produce higher HDL.

One could also take inositol with niacin to prevent the flush
or use inositol hexonicotinate. Marty, do you think anyone
should really use cholesterol-lowering drugs or niacin when
policosanol apparently works just as well?

DB

[Steve Harr]

"Martin Banschbach Ph.D." <mbansch314@aol.com> wrote in
message news:20020222172808.20957.00000149@mb-cg.aol.com...
> >anyone make a 'pure' niacin (not niacinamide) product ?
> >
> >Arto
>
> Niacinamide is animal niacin. It's can't cause the niacin
> flush because
it's
> already been detoxified.
>
> Nicotinic acid is plant niacin. Plants produce it as an
> insecticide.

They produce nicotine as the insecticide. And oxidative
destruction of nicotinine does produce niacin. I know of no
evidence that plants make niacin in any quantity. It's
basically a manufactored substance made by oxidizing
m-methyl aniline.

If you
> see the term niacin on a lable, it's all nicotinic acid.

Probably.

> It's pretty common to see a niacin/niacinamide mix.
> Nicotinic acid as a
plant
> insecticide is toxic. Niacinamide has much less toxicity.

Not really. They're both about equally hepatotoxic, if you
must know. Yes, only nicotinin acid causes the flush, but you
shouldn't mistake the flush as early toxicty.

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[Paul Roger]

"DB" <wired123@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:FCBd8.4903$v32.2236021832@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Martin Banschbach Ph.D. wrote:
>
> >
> > If you want to use niacin to lower LDL and raise HDL just
> > get the plain old niacin but watch the dose and remember
> > that just like the statins, nicotinic acid can cause liver
> > damage.
> >
> >
> > Marty B "You are what you eat"
>
> I could be wrong but I was under the impression that it
> requires like 2-4 grams of niacin a day to effect
> cholesterol. Also, Steve Harris mentioned
a
> study that showed that combining antioxidants with niacin
> therapy reduced the benefits. He speculated that this *may*
> be due to the antioxidants reducing liver inflammation that
> could actually be the trigger for the
body
> to produce higher HDL.
>
> One could also take inositol with niacin to prevent the
> flush or use inositol hexonicotinate. Marty, do you think
> anyone should really use cholesterol-lowering drugs or
> niacin when policosanol apparently works
just
> as well?

Why do you think policosanol works just as well?

Paul R

[Peter Fack]

In article
<FCBd8.4903$v32.2236021832@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, DB
<wired123@pacbell.net> wrote:

>I could be wrong but I was under the impression that it
>requires like 2-4 grams of niacin a day to effect
>cholesterol. Also, Steve Harris mentioned a study that showed
>that combining antioxidants with niacin therapy reduced the
>benefits. He speculated that this *may* be due to the
>antioxidants reducing liver inflammation that could actually
>be the trigger for the body to produce higher HDL.

My HDL went down significantly after some months with a vegan
diet rich in antioxidants.

Regards

Peter

[Martin Ban]

"Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote
in message
>
> They produce nicotine as the insecticide. And oxidative
> destruction of nicotinine does produce niacin. I know of no
> evidence that plants make niacin in any quantity. It's
> basically a manufactored substance made by oxidizing
> m-methyl aniline.

Steve,

Plants produce both nicotine and it's oxidation product
nicotinic acid as insecticides. Humans and other animals have
learned not to eat the plants that have most of their
nicotinic acid free. The foods that we eat have most of the
nicotinic acid bound in a form that can not be absorbed in the
human gut. I think that corn is about 80% bound. Treating the
corn flour with alkali will release some of this bound
nicotinic acid and allow humans to absorb it.

> > It's pretty common to see a niacin/niacinamide mix.
> > Nicotinic acid as a
> plant
> > insecticide is toxic. Niacinamide has much less toxicity.
>
>
> Not really. They're both about equally hepatotoxic, if you
> must know. Yes, only nicotinin acid causes the flush, but
> you shouldn't mistake the flush as early toxicty.

Niacinamide has already been detoxified by the liver. I agree
that both nicotinic acid and niacinamide can cause liver
damage but I do not agree with your statement that they are
equally toxic to the liver on an identical dose basis.

[Martin Ban]

> One could also take inositol with niacin to prevent the
> flush or use inositol hexonicotinate. Marty, do you think
> anyone should really use cholesterol-lowering drugs or
> niacin when policosanol apparently works just as well?
>
> DB

Inositol is not going to prevent a nicotinic acid flush.
Inositiol hexanicotinate is just nicotinic acid that has been
put in a form that can not affect phosphodiesterase activity.
After the liver processes inositiol hexanicotinate to release
nicotinic acid, then some could escape and cause a niacin
fluch but it's not likely unless a very high dose is used.

Inositiol hexanicotinate is basically time release niacin. It
has the potential to have a greater effect on HDL than regular
niacin does but it also has a higher risk of causing liver
damage than regular niacin does.

[Steve Harr]

>In article
><FCBd8.4903$v32.2236021832@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, DB
><wired123@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>I could be wrong but I was under the impression that it
>>requires like 2-4 grams of niacin a day to effect
>>cholesterol. Also, Steve Harris mentioned
a
>>study that showed that combining antioxidants with niacin
>>therapy reduced the benefits. He speculated that this *may*
>>be due to the antioxidants reducing liver inflammation that
>>could actually be the trigger for the
body
>>to produce higher HDL.
>
>My HDL went down significantly after some months with a vegan
>diet rich in antioxidants.
>
>Regards
>
>Peter

That typically happens in switching to vegan diets with low
fat and high polyunsat fat. Both HDL and LDL drop, but the
ratio stays more or less the same. This does result in some
risk-reduction. It's probably not the same effect as was seen
in the niacin supplementation/statin/antioxidant study.

--
I welcome email from any being clever enough to fix my
address. It's open book. A prize to the first spambot that
passes my Turing test. Peter Fackelmann wrote in message ...

[Andy B]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:09:37 +0100, PeterFackelmann@gmx.net
(Peter Fackelmann) wrote:

>In article
><FCBd8.4903$v32.2236021832@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, DB
><wired123@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>I could be wrong but I was under the impression that it
>>requires like 2-4 grams of niacin a day to effect
>>cholesterol. Also, Steve Harris mentioned a study that
>>showed that combining antioxidants with niacin therapy
>>reduced the benefits. He speculated that this *may* be due
>>to the antioxidants reducing liver inflammation that could
>>actually be the trigger for the body to produce higher HDL.
>
>My HDL went down significantly after some months with a vegan
>diet rich in antioxidants.

Errr, HDL would be the good one. That went _down_ with a
vegan, antioxidant-rich diet?

Regards,

Andy

[Db]

Martin Banschbach wrote:

>> One could also take inositol with niacin to prevent the
>> flush or use inositol hexonicotinate. Marty, do you think
>> anyone should really use cholesterol-lowering drugs or
>> niacin when policosanol apparently works just as well?
>>
>> DB
>
> Inositol is not going to prevent a nicotinic acid flush.

Sorry for speading misinformation.

> Inositiol hexanicotinate is just nicotinic acid that has
> been put in a form that can not affect phosphodiesterase
> activity. After the liver processes inositiol hexanicotinate
> to release nicotinic acid, then some could escape and cause
> a niacin fluch but it's not likely unless a very high dose
> is used.
>
> Inositiol hexanicotinate is basically time release niacin.
> It has the potential to have a greater effect on HDL than
> regular niacin does but it also has a higher risk of causing
> liver damage than regular niacin does.

[Steve Harr]

Martin Banschbach wrote in message ...

>Niacinamide has already been detoxified by the liver. I agree
>that both nicotinic acid and niacinamide can cause liver
>damage but I do not agree with your statement that they are
>equally toxic to the liver on an identical dose basis.

Well, you're free to look the tox limits up. Somewhere up
around a couple of grams a day are where both of them
increasingly are dangerous.

--
I welcome email from any being clever enough to fix my
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[Martin Ban]

"Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote in
message news:<a5gorp$uor$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...

> Well, you're free to look the tox limits up. Somewhere up
> around a couple of grams a day are where both of them
> increasingly are dangerous.

Steve,

I have spent a lot of time going over nutrient toxicity, not
just for niacin but for every nutrient where toxicity has
been reported.

The Cornell nutrition website says that niacinamide appears to
be less toxic than nicotinic acid. I of course have read other
material where it is stated that niacinamide is definitely
less toxic than nictoinic acid.

Nicotinic acid is considered to be toxic at a dose of 1 gram
per day, niacinamide is not toxic at this dose. You have to
understand what these two forms of niacin are capable of
doing in humans before saying that a particular dose is
toxic. Actually any adverse effect is considered to be a
toxic effect.

Drugs are expected to display side effects, essential
nutrients are not expected to display side effects. If you
want to move into liver damage, then you have to up the
dose. Yes both nicotinic acid and niacinamide will damage
the liver and the dose needed to do this is similiar with a
healthy liver but once you start compromising liver
function, you see a different effect of these two. I never
could figure this out.

Alcohol use makes retinol much more toxic to the liver. The
only thing that I could figure out was that damage to the
liver makes nicotinic acid more toxic but the toxicity of
niacinamide remains the same. Why? I don't know.

[Baron Blac]

"Martin Banschbach" <mbansch314@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cba7fed1.0202261720.32754cd0@posting.google.com...
> "Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote
> in message
news:<a5gorp$uor$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
>
> > Well, you're free to look the tox limits up. Somewhere up
> > around a
couple of
> > grams a day are where both of them increasingly are
> > dangerous.
>
> Steve,
>
> I have spent a lot of time going over nutrient toxicity, not
> just for niacin but for every nutrient where toxicity has
> been reported.
>
> The Cornell nutrition website says that niacinamide appears
> to be less toxic than nicotinic acid. I of course have read
> other material where it is stated that niacinamide is
> definitely less toxic than nictoinic acid.
>
> Nicotinic acid is considered to be toxic at a dose of 1 gram
> per day, niacinamide is not toxic at this dose. You have to
> understand what these two forms of niacin are capable of
> doing in humans before saying that a particular dose is
> toxic. Actually any adverse effect is considered to be a
> toxic effect.
>
> Drugs are expected to display side effects, essential
> nutrients are not expected to display side effects. If you
> want to move into liver damage, then you have to up the
> dose. Yes both nicotinic acid and niacinamide will damage
> the liver and the dose needed to do this is similiar with a
> healthy liver but once you start compromising liver
> function, you see a different effect of these two. I never
> could figure this out.
>
> Alcohol use makes retinol much more toxic to the liver. The
> only thing that I could figure out was that damage to the
> liver makes nicotinic acid more toxic but the toxicity of
> niacinamide remains the same. Why? I don't know.
>
I just wanted to add that Flush-Free niacin (inosistol
nicotinate) at 1000 mg per day usually will not cause liver
damage. My wife has been taking that dose for over a year and
her liver enzymes are normal. She reduced her cholesterol from
290 to 220 and her LDL is 110, not too bad, and her LDL/HDL is
2.5 which is also not bad. I believe the research is showing
that the slow-release form of niacin may be less toxic at
theraputic levels. Considering that the statins also cauce
liver damage, and may also be be even more toxic than niacin
over the long run, I would give Flush-free niacin a try before
signing up for a statin straightaway.

[Steve Harr]

Baron Blackfang wrote in message ...

>I just wanted to add that Flush-Free niacin (inosistol
>nicotinate) at 1000 mg per day usually will not cause
>liver damage.

No, but you don't know for sure, because no large tox studies
of this have been undertaken. We know almost NOTHING about
inositol hexanicotinate in large populations, because nobody
has ever put out enough money to study it in them. Meanwhile,
I think that any dose of niacin large enough to affect
cholesterol is large enough for you to get your liver checked
at least once. You have to have blood drawn for the
cholesterol anyway, so why not include an AST with it?

> My wife has been taking that dose for over a year and her
> liver enzymes are normal. She reduced her cholesterol from
> 290 to 220 and her LDL is 110, not too bad, and her
LDL/HDL
>is 2.5 which is also not bad.

That's nice, but try not to be giving generalized advice based
on your wife's one-time experience, hey? Niacin in gram
quantities is a pharmaceutical, not a health-supplement. Treat
it with respect, or it will bite you. Anyone considering going
out and willy-nilly taking something with only a safety margin
of 2 or 3 with respect to what can make their liver cells die,
is a damn fool. That is NOT enough safety buffer zone for use
of any ingested substance, without some very strict safety
precautions.

> I believe the research is showing that the slow-release form
> of niacin may be less toxic at therapeutic levels.

No, if anything the opposite is the case. Nobody has yet done
a direct comparison study on inositol hexanicotinate. The
"intermediate release" niacins are more toxic than plain
niacin. Just how the modern so-called "slow release" (one a
day) niacins fit into the picture is not yet clear. They are
thought to be fairly innocuous, but that was thought true of
the first intermediate release preparations, too. They only
found the problems epidemiologically, and VERY large numbers
of patients. If one in 10 thousand people has liver tox
problems, you many not find it in phase III trial studies. And
it may not show in yer wife.

>Considering that the statins also cauce liver damage, and may
>also be be even more toxic than niacin over the long run,

That's not clear. We have tested statins in far larger numbers
of people, over far longer times. Their BENEFITS of statins on
coronary disease and life expectancy are FAR better proven
than those of niacin. So you're trading for a bigger piece of
pie. Not that I'm not recommending liver tests for anyone
taking a statin, too. Of course, I am.

> I would give Flush-free niacin a try before signing up for a
> statin straightaway.

That would depend on what your cholesterol problem is. Statins
are the gold standard of treatment for most high-LDL problems,
with niacin an add-on for low HDLs. Don't take fibrates (if
your doc wants you to, get second and third opinions; these
things are NOT proven). Get your blood tested periodically no
matter what you do pharmacologically. Stay away from milk fat
and hydrogenated fat. Triglyceride problems need additional
attention from the veiwpoint of sugar and alcohol abstinence,
and omega-3 supplementation. Don't forget to fix homocysteine
problems while you're at
it. That's a short but workable summary of advice for the
chemical part of atherosclerosis prevention.

SBH

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