watchman may be right

[Wuzzy]

Insulin resistance is strongly associated with liver iron
overload syndrome. associations that have been reported
between increased body iron stores and cancerous,
cardio-vascular and hepatic disorders. T

Also I ran stepwise regression on ALL variables and how they
predict insulin levels and only lead and iron and the
following showed up as significant in decreasing order of
significance it accounted for 40% of the variance in insulin..
i've emailed a person who is doing research on population
studies and insulin to see what they think:

Lead (ug/dL)(+) Serum iron (ug/dL(+) Lead (ug/dL)(-)
SerumIron(+) Serum TIBC (ug/dL)(+) SerumLead(+) Lead
(ug/dL)(+) Serum folate (ng/mL)(+) Erythrocyte protoporphyrin
(ug/dL)(+)

[Martin Ban]

>Insulin resistance is strongly associated with liver iron
>overload syndrome.

Liver is supposed to respond to insulin. A vanadium
deficiency or an iron excess may impair this response. I
don't think that your observation that iron over load is
linked to insulin resistence is new because iron over load
syndrome is an area of research that has been and continues
to be intensely studied because this may be the most common
genetic defect in humans.

I'd be interested to learn what kind of response you get from
your email. Marty B "You are what you eat"

[Wuzzy]

> Lead (ug/dL)(+) Serum iron (ug/dL(+) Lead (ug/dL)(-)
> SerumIron(+) Serum TIBC (ug/dL)(+) SerumLead(+) Lead
> (ug/dL)(+) Serum folate (ng/mL)(+) Erythrocyte
> protoporphyrin (ug/dL)(+)

Here, lead=iron=tibc=protoporphyrin

so that,

x y z 1 1 2 2 50 50 3 1 1 4 50 50 5 1 1 6 50 50 7 1 1 8 50 50
9 1 1 10 50 50 11 1 1 12 50 50 13 1 1

x=y+z R^2=0.45

multicollinearity.. in fact x does NOT equal y+z.. but there
is an infinite amount of equations to force x=y+z..

[Wuzzy]

hehe that was pointed out to me quite mildly in an
e-mail.. i'm obviously new to stats.. interesting
literature review though :)

[Jay Tanzma]

mypcos@hotmail.com (Wuzzy) wrote ...

"Watchman may be right."

Well, I suppose "iron" is bound to be the right answer to
some question.

-Jay

[Wuzzy]

mbansch314@aol.com (Martin Banschbach Ph.D.) wrote in message
news:<20020203141100.21471.00000940@mb-fa.aol.com>...
> >Insulin resistance is strongly associated with liver iron
> >overload syndrome.
>
> Liver is supposed to respond to insulin.

Apparently I'm the only one that didn't know this:

Correlations ahve been found in several population studies..
1: Diabetes Care 1997 Mar;20(3):426-8 Body iron stores are
associated with serum insulin and blood glucose
concentrations. Population study in 1,013 eastern
Finnish men.

Tuomainen TP, Nyyssonen K, Salonen R, Tervahauta A, Korpela H,
Lakka T, Kaplan GA, Salonen JT.

Research Institute of Public Health, University of
Kuopio, Finland.

OBJECTIVE: To study if there is an association between mildly
elevated body iron and glucose homeostasis indexes. RESEARCH
DESIGN AND METHODS: A cross-sectional population study was
conducted in 1,013 middle-aged men, and an association of
serum ferritin with concentrations of serum insulin, blood
glucose, and serum fructosamine was tested. RESULTS: The mean
concentration of fasting serum insulin was 21.6% higher (95%
CI 7.3-37.9%, P < 0.001) in the 5th quintile of serum ferritin
compared with the 1st quintile. The elevation in blood glucose
was 6.1% (95% CI 2.3-9.9%, P < 0.001) and in serum
fructosamine 3.9% (1.5-6.9%, P < 0.01). CONCLUSIONS: Mildly
elevated body iron stores are associated with statistically
significant elevations in glucose homeostasis indexes.

PMID: 9051399 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Wuzzy]

Small search turned up:

Low iron status and enhanced insulin sensitivity in lacto-ovo
vegetarians BRIT J NUTR 86 (4): 515-519 OCT 2001

Plasma ferritin and type 2 diabetes mellitus: A critical
review ENDOCR RES 27 (1-2): 91-97 2001

Gestational diabetes mellitus in the last trimester - a
feature of maternal iron excess? DIABETIC MED 18 (3):
218-223 MAR 2001

Association of serum ferritin and indices of body fat
distribution and obesity in Mexican American men - the Third
National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey INT J OBESITY
25 (5): 639-645 MAY 2001

Is diabetes mellitus a sufficient condition to suspect
hemochromatosis? DIABETES METAB 26 (4): 318-321 SEP 2000

Excess iron storage in patients with type 2 diabetes unrelated
to primary hemochromatosis NEW ENGL J MED 343 (12): 891-891
SEP 21 2000

C virus, iron and sugar MED CLIN-BARCELONA 115 (1): 25-26
JUN 3 2000

Serum ferritin in healthy subjects and type 2 diabetic
patients YONSEI MED J 41 (3): 387-392 JUN 2000

Diabetes and serum ferritin concentration among US adults
DIABETES CARE 22 (12): 1978-1983 DEC 1999

Insulin resistance-associated hepatic iron overload
GASTROENTEROLOGY 117 (5): 1155-1163 NOV 1999

Insulin resistance-associated hepatic iron overload
GASTROENTEROLOGY 117 (5): 1155-1163 NOV 1999

Macdonald GA, Powell LW More clues to the relationship
between hepatic iron and steatosis: An association
with insulin resistance? GASTROENTEROLOGY 117 (5):
1241-1244 NOV 1999

Iron loading and disease surveillance EMERG INFECT DIS 5 (3):
346-352 MAY-JUN 1999

Effect of phlebotomy on plasma glucose and insulin
concentrations DIABETES CARE 21 (12): 2190-2190 DEC 1998

Relation between iron stores and non-insulin dependent
diabetes in men: case-control study BRIT MED J 317 (7160):
727-727 SEP 12 1998

Association between body iron stores and the risk of acute
myocardial infarction in men CIRCULATION 97 (15): 1461-1466
APR 21 1998

Serum ferritin as a component of the insulin resistance
syndrome DIABETES CARE 21 (1): 62-68 JAN 1998

Its even been done on my population so i wasted my time
running the query..

[Wuzzy]

From the Brit J Nutrition article, " Vegetarians often consume
considerable amounts of Ca-enriched products (in particular,
cheese). A variety of studies have shown that Ca salts also
significantly inhibit intestinal Fe absorption as well
(Anderson et al. 1940; Cook et al. 1991; Hallberg et al.
1991). Thus, low v. high dietary Fe bioavailability is likely
to account for differences in Fe status among vegetarians and
meat-eaters."

So the association of calcium with body weight appears to
parrallel inversely with association with iron..

basically vegetarians get more phytates that inhibit
non-haeme iron absorption as well as meat-eaters having
higher haeme iron.

Is haeme iron present in non-red meats? This further
supports reducing red meat diets, but i'm not sure what to
say about poultry..

Also the relationship appears to be causal as can be inferred
from phlebotomy and how it improves sensitivity to insulin..

"In conclusion, LO vegetarians are more insulin sensitive than
meat-eaters. This metabolic feature appears to be secondary to
decreased body Fe in LO vegetarians compared with
meat-eaters."

[Wuzzy]

One theory about the protective effects of wine on diabetes is
that it reduces iron stores:

Effect of wine ethanol on serum iron and ferritin levels in
patients with coronary heart disease NUTRITION METABOLISM AND
CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASES
11 (3): 176-180 JUN 2001 Background and Aim: The association
between high body iron stores and coronary heart disease
(CHD) is a subject of intense debate whereas wi I ne
consumption is known to be associated with a low CHD
rate. It has been suggested that the inhibition of iron
absorption is one of the possible mechanisms of the
CHD-protective effects of drinking.

Methods and Results: We analysed the interrelationships of
wine ethanol intake and fasting serum ferritin, iron and gamma
glutamyl transferase (GGT) in patients enrolled in the Lyon
Diet Heart Study, a secondary prevention trial designed to
test whether a Mediterranean-type diet may protect against
CHD. The intake of wine ethanol was evaluated in the 24 hours
preceding blood sampling, and expressed as a percentage of the
total daily energy, intake. Data were obtained from 437
consecutive patients. There was a positive relationship
(Spearman statistics) between wine ethanol and the serum
levels of iron (r=0.21, p <0.0001), ferritin (r=0.23, p
<0.0001) and GGT (r=031, p <.0001). Uni- and multilinear
regression analyses after excluding non-drinkers and log
transforming the variables Yielded similar results.

Conclusions: The available data showing positive relationships
between wine ethanol intake and serum concentrations of both
ferritin and iron in patients with CHD tend to disprove the
hypothesis that wine ethanol consumption could decrease iron
stores and thereby the risk of CHD. Further studies are
required to investigate the mechanism(s) by which wine
drinking reduces the risk of CHD.

[Justin Bon]

jtanzman@sph.llu.edu (Jay Tanzman) wrote in message
news:<b73f2751.0202041945.5d552cd5@posting.google.com>...
> mypcos@hotmail.com (Wuzzy) wrote ...
>
> "Watchman may be right."
>
> Well, I suppose "iron" is bound to be the right answer to
> some question.
>

What common household item is frequently used to remove
wrinkles from clothing?

Justin

[Watchman]

Wuzzy <mypcos@hotmail.com> wrote:

> basically vegetarians get more phytates that inhibit
> non-haeme iron absorption as well as meat-eaters having
> higher haeme iron.

The meat eater being found with higher iron .. stores .. you
mean?

> Is haeme iron present in non-red meats?

'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme. Heme
is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is heme iron.
Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated by the body in
its' rate of absorption .. then the iron stores slowly but
surely rise ..

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Justin Bon]

watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message
news:<3c5f854b@news.nucleus.com>...
> Wuzzy <mypcos@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > basically vegetarians get more phytates that inhibit
> > non-haeme iron absorption as well as meat-eaters having
> > higher haeme iron.
>
> The meat eater being found with higher iron .. stores ..
> you mean?
>
> > Is haeme iron present in non-red meats?
>
> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme. Heme
> is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is heme iron.
> Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated by the body in
> its' rate of absorption .. then the iron stores slowly but
> surely rise ..

My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of me...

There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron, one
of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form which is
found only in animal products, most particularly red meat.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db-
=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract

How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate digestive
structure for absorbing something found only in animal
products a proof that we're really meant to be vegetarians?

Justin

[Watchman]

Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme. Heme
>> is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is heme iron.
>> Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated by the body in
>> its' rate of absorption .. then the iron stores slowly but
>> surely rise ..

> My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of me...

> There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron, one
> of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form which is
> found only in animal products, most particularly red meat.

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
> db=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract

> How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate digestive
> structure for absorbing something found only in animal
> products a proof that we're really meant to be vegetarians?

The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption process
for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might be spilled
into the throat and gut through bleeding from the nose and
mouth. The body absorbs and stores a certain amount of iron.
There is an upper limit to the amount of iron the body can
safely store. This upper limit has recently been shown to be
when the transferrin reaches a point of 35% saturation at
which point the transferrin begins to 'leak' its cargo.. iron.
At this point 'free' iron / NTBI-non transferrin bound iron/
NPBI- non protein bound iron .. forms. This free iron forms
what is known as the LIP
- labile iron pool. So this mechanism we believe to have
evolved to absorb heme iron from blood .. has not evolved in
order to absorb blood from outside the body but is to
RECYCLE the iron which has spilled from our own bodies.

The UPPER LIMIT to the safe amount of iron which can be
stored .. is what proves man is a herbivore .. due to the
fact the iron from meat is shown to slowly but surely build
to toxic levels.

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Martin Ban]

watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message

> The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
> process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might
> be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding from the
> nose and mouth. The body absorbs and stores a certain amount
> of iron. There is an upper limit to the amount of iron the
> body can safely store.

I should have myself committed for trying to debate an ethical
vegan. You have spent some time studying iron to make it fit
your view (humans are herbivores). No amount of data will make
you change your mind. But I may learn something from you that
I did not know so I'll engage.

Why do chimps in the wild hunt down, kill and then eat
monkeys? Why do they kill and eat other chimps?

Your theory of why the human gut absorbs heme intact with the
iron still in it is not valid based on the data collected for
other primates and pigs. Pigs are omnivores just like us and
their digestive system is closer to ours than any other animal
other than other primates.

I have gotten into this debate with ethical vegans in the past
and it really pissed them off, but facts are facts, wild
primates are not herbivores. Us modern primates have
apparently lost the instinct to get what we need (according to
some nutrition experts) but the wild primates still have that
instinct. If wild primates ate nothing but plant food, I would
be more inclined to agree with you but the fact of the matter
is that they get their hands on meat or insects whenever the
opportunity presents itself. If the opportunity is not there,
they will kill and eat their own species. Explain that Tom.
Wild primates do not believe in a higher power. They do not
make ethical choices when they decide to eat something.

> This upper limit has recently been shown to be when the
> transferrin reaches a point of 35% saturation at which point
> the transferrin begins to 'leak' its cargo.. iron.

Transferrin saturation determines how much of the iron stored
in the gut and other tissues can safely come out. It's a hell
of a lot more complex than you imagine. Ceruloplasmin (copper)
also has to get involved.

Gut is not supposed to release it's iron unless it's
absolutely safe to do so. Other tissues where iron is stored
do not have this safety mechanism built into them like the
gut does. But all tissues where iron is stored will respond
to the stop iron release signal during an infection (very
place that has it stored holds it until after the infection
is over). Tom, look at the iron levels in human blood when an
infection occurs.

People with a genetic defect have lost this gut control. The
theory is that this gave them a selective advantage when iron
was hard to come by. Now that iron is not hard to come up, it
puts them at risk for iron over load. The human genome project
is supposed to tell us what the genetic defect is and how
prevelant it is. People (huminoids)with this defect would have
been less inclined to kill another huminoids to get the iron
that they needed (so the theory goes). Theories are nice
because you can usually find one to fit your point of view.
But as facts (data) accumulate, you may have to throw a
particular theory out the window. Of course if you want to
hold onto that theory for ethical reasons, you will never
discard it. There may be some people who still think that the
world is flat. If someone came here with this claim you would
have a hard time convincing them otherwise unless you put them
on an airplane or up in the space shutte.

> The UPPER LIMIT to the safe amount of iron which can be
> stored .. is what proves man is a herbivore .. due to the
> fact the iron from meat is shown to slowly but surely build
> to toxic levels.
>
> Who loves ya. Tom

Okay Tom, here is your chance to show me what you have.
What is the UPPER LIMIT for iron in humans? Since this is
a critical part of your claim that humans are herbivores,
you must know the answer to this question because the
answer is the central point to your claim that human
digestion is not designed for handling heme and we should
therefore eat only plants.

I can tell you that the answer is not a transferrin saturation
of 35% or more because transferrin is only invovled in moving
iron, it is not involved in storing iron.

The "over flow" that you like to cite as the toxic level is
not linked to how the gut handles iron, it's more related to
the load coming back to the liver for the destruction of red
blood cells. Even with a vegan level of stored iron, you are
gowing to see "iron overflow" if excessive red blood cell
destruction occurs.

If you know anything about iron you must surely understand
this iron road (reuse of iron coming from red blood cell
destruction).

Lets see what you have stored in your memory banks. The last
time I got into this issue with vegans I decided that the
average storage value for iron in vegans put them at higher
risk for iron deficiency anemia but the average value for iron
stored in omnivores may give too much free iron during the
iron reuse process so I personally am trying to get my serum
ferritin a little lower but I am not going to eat like a
herbivore to do this.

[Justin Bon]

watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message
news:<3c5ffd8e@news.nucleus.com>...
> Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme.
> >> Heme is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is
> >> heme iron. Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated
> >> by the body in its' rate of absorption .. then the iron
> >> stores slowly but surely rise ..
>
> > My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of me...
>
> > There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron,
> > one of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form
> > which is found only in animal products, most particularly
> > red meat.
>
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retriev-
> > e&db=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract
>
> > How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate digestive
> > structure for absorbing something found only in animal
> > products a proof that we're really meant to be
> > vegetarians?
>
> The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
> process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might
> be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding from the
> nose and mouth.

I knew this was going to be good ;)

You honestly believe that we evolved a specialized digestive
structure just for those times when we get a bloody nose
and/or mouth and swallow our blood?

Justin

[Watchman]

Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
> watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message
> news:<3c5ffd8e@news.nucleus.com>...
>> Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme.
>> >> Heme is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is
>> >> heme iron. Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated
>> >> by the body in its' rate of absorption .. then the iron
>> >> stores slowly but surely rise ..
>>
>> > My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of
>> > me...
>>
>> > There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron,
>> > one of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form
>> > which is found only in animal products, most particularly
>> > red meat.
>>
>> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrie-
>> > ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract
>>
>> > How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate digestive
>> > structure for absorbing something found only in animal
>> > products a proof that we're really meant to be
>> > vegetarians?
>>
>> The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
>> process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might
>> be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding from
>> the nose and mouth.

> I knew this was going to be good ;)

> You honestly believe that we evolved a specialized digestive
> structure just for those times when we get a bloody nose
> and/or mouth and swallow our blood?

> Justin

No .. I don't think we evolved this .. it has been with us
forever. It is part and parcel of the recycling of the iron in
our bodies. The body controls the iron it has in it by
absorption .. and has no effective way to rid the body of it
.. once it gets past the gut. Since man is NOT SUPPOSED to eat
blood.. the specialized structure is part and parcel of the
body guarding its' iron ... so when we do get a bleeding nose
.. the iron is reabsorbed .. almost totally.. to MAKE VERY
SURE we don't lose any of the precious iron.

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Watchman]

Martin Banschbach <mbansch314@aol.com> wrote:
> watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message

>> The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
>> process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might
>> be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding from
>> the nose and mouth. The body absorbs and stores a certain
>> amount of iron. There is an upper limit to the amount of
>> iron the body can safely store.

> I should have myself committed for trying to debate an
> ethical vegan. You have spent some time studying iron to
> make it fit your view (humans are herbivores). No amount of
> data will make you change your mind. But I may learn
> something from you that I did not know so I'll engage.

> Why do chimps in the wild hunt down, kill and then eat
> monkeys? Why do they kill and eat other chimps?

> Your theory of why the human gut absorbs heme intact with
> the iron still in it is not valid based on the data
> collected for other primates and pigs. Pigs are omnivores
> just like us and their digestive system is closer to ours
> than any other animal other than other primates.

> I have gotten into this debate with ethical vegans in the
> past and it really pissed them off, but facts are facts,
> wild primates are not herbivores. Us modern primates have
> apparently lost the instinct to get what we need (according
> to some nutrition experts) but the wild primates still have
> that instinct. If wild primates ate nothing but plant food,
> I would be more inclined to agree with you but the fact of

So .. in the same vein then .. you believe homosexuality is
'natural' due to the fact these self same monkeys .. partake?
Or .. murder .. since again these self same monkeys are known
to kill baby monkeys in order for the mothers to again come
into heat ?

> the matter is that they get their hands on meat or insects
> whenever the opportunity presents itself. If the opportunity
> is not there, they will kill and eat their own species.
> Explain that Tom. Wild primates do not believe in a higher
> power. They do not make ethical choices when they decide to
> eat something.

>> This upper limit has recently been shown to be when the
>> transferrin reaches a point of 35% saturation at which
>> point the transferrin begins to 'leak' its cargo.. iron.

> Transferrin saturation determines how much of the iron
> stored in the gut and other tissues can safely come out.
> It's a hell of a lot more complex than you imagine.
> Ceruloplasmin (copper) also has to get involved.

> Gut is not supposed to release it's iron unless it's
> absolutely safe to do so. Other tissues where iron is stored
> do not have this safety mechanism built into them like the
> gut does. But all tissues where iron is stored will respond
> to the stop iron release signal during an infection (very
> place that has it stored holds it until after the infection
> is over). Tom, look at the iron levels in human blood when
> an infection occurs.

> People with a genetic defect have lost this gut control. The
> theory is that this gave them a selective advantage when
> iron was hard to come by.

My theory is that the body has evolved this due to the fact
that man eats blood. The human body recognized.. man was
eating blood. This means .. there is not enough plants on
Earth to sustain the amount of people on Earth and therefore
they have begun to eat each other to survive. This leads to
a genetic change which allows one to absorb PLENTY of iron
from the plants we eat .. thereby making it such that we
need not kill and eat each other because we are NOW getting
PLENTY of iron from our plants.. what little plant food we
DO get to eat.

> Now that iron is not hard to come up, it puts them at risk
> for iron over load. The human genome project is supposed to
> tell us what the genetic defect is and how prevelant it is.
> People (huminoids)with this defect would have been less
> inclined to kill another huminoids to get the iron that they
> needed (so the theory goes). Theories are nice because you
> can usually find one to fit your point of view. But as facts
> (data) accumulate, you may have to throw a particular theory
> out the window. Of course if you want to hold onto that
> theory for ethical reasons, you will never discard it. There
> may be some people who still think that the world is flat.
> If someone came here with this claim you would have a hard
> time convincing them otherwise unless you put them on an
> airplane or up in the space shutte.

>> The UPPER LIMIT to the safe amount of iron which can be
>> stored .. is what proves man is a herbivore .. due to the
>> fact the iron from meat is shown to slowly but surely build
>> to toxic levels.
>>
>> Who loves ya. Tom

> Okay Tom, here is your chance to show me what you have.
> What is the UPPER LIMIT for iron in humans? Since this is
> a critical part of your claim that humans are herbivores,
> you must know the answer to this question because the
> answer is the central point to your claim that human
> digestion is not designed for handling heme and we should
> therefore eat only plants.

> I can tell you that the answer is not a transferrin
> saturation of 35% or more because transferrin is only
> invovled in moving iron, it is not involved in storing iron.

Well it seems you and I disagree. The latest study found
'free' iron does not appear UNTIL the transferrin is 35% full.
Whether this 'marker' is THE marker to use which tells FOR
SURE there is too much iron in the body .. seems to be what we
have .. for now. I have been looking into apoferritin which by
what I understand isn't produced UNTIL the body is LONG TERM
LOADING iron .. and so apoferritin or lack thereof might be
the marker to use to ascertain excess iron? Or it may be
simply testing for this 'free' iron /NTBI- non protein bound
iron / NPBI - non proteins bound iron .. ? Since this free
iron forms what is known as the LIP - labile iron pool .. then
a simple test which test for the LIP .. may be all that is
needed. So far .. though .. it seems to me .. since 35%
saturation of transferrin begins to show free iron .. then the
saturation of 35% must be the marker to use for now?

> The "over flow" that you like to cite as the toxic level is
> not linked to how the gut handles iron, it's more related to
> the load coming back to the liver for the destruction of red
> blood cells. Even with a vegan level of stored iron, you are
> gowing to see "iron overflow" if excessive red blood cell
> destruction occurs.

Cite please .. even one .. which shows 'free' iron / NTBI
/NPBI or LIP in a person who does not consume blood.

> If you know anything about iron you must surely understand
> this iron road (reuse of iron coming from red blood cell
> destruction).

BUT .. with a low level of iron which is encountered it seems
in EVERY vegetarian .. even TOTAL destruction of red blood
cells would not cause an overflow .. due to the fact there
simply isn't ENOUGH iron in the body to BE ABLE TO 'overtax'
the control mechanism of UPPER LIMIT saturation of 35%.

> Lets see what you have stored in your memory banks. The last
> time I got into this issue with vegans I decided that the
> average storage value for iron in vegans put them at higher
> risk for iron deficiency anemia but the average value for
> iron stored in omnivores may give too much free iron during
> the iron reuse process so I personally am trying to get my
> serum ferritin a little lower but I am not going to eat like
> a herbivore to do this.

Since they have now begun to say .. " Even though we appear to
be healthy .. plenty of red blood cells .. UNLESS we have a
'certain amount' of stored iron .. then we can STILL be ..
anemic." .. would make 'sense' .. to you? ;)

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Watchman]

watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote:
> Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message
>> news:<3c5ffd8e@news.nucleus.com>...
>>> Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme.
>>> >> Heme is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is
>>> >> heme iron. Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated
>>> >> by the body in its' rate of absorption .. then the iron
>>> >> stores slowly but surely rise ..
>>>
>>> > My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of
>>> > me...
>>>
>>> > There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron,
>>> > one of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form
>>> > which is found only in animal products, most
>>> > particularly red meat.
>>>
>>> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retri-
>>> > eve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract
>>>
>>> > How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate
>>> > digestive structure for absorbing something found only
>>> > in animal products a proof that we're really meant to be
>>> > vegetarians?
>>>
>>> The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
>>> process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might
>>> be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding from
>>> the nose and mouth.

>> I knew this was going to be good ;)

>> You honestly believe that we evolved a specialized
>> digestive structure just for those times when we get a
>> bloody nose and/or mouth and swallow our blood?

>> Justin

> No .. I don't think we evolved this .. it has been with us
> forever. It is part and parcel of the recycling of the iron
> in our bodies. The body controls the iron it has in it by
> absorption .. and has no effective way to rid the body of it
> .. once it gets past the gut. Since man is NOT SUPPOSED to
> eat blood.. the specialized structure is part and parcel of
> the body guarding its' iron ... so when we do get a bleeding
> nose .. the iron is reabsorbed .. almost totally.. to MAKE
> VERY SURE we don't lose any of the precious iron.

> Who loves ya. Tom
> --
> Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman
> Moses was a Mystic!
> http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Martin Ban]

watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message

> Since they have now begun to say .. " Even though we appear
> to be healthy .. plenty of red blood cells .. UNLESS we have
> a 'certain amount' of stored iron .. then we can STILL be ..
> anemic." .. would make 'sense' .. to you? ;)
>
> Who loves ya. Tom

This is actually one of your more sensible statements Tom. I
can't believe what you stooped to to try to explain wild
primate behavior. Vegans get malaria, look at the red cell
loss and the free unbound iron in these patients Tom. Know why
malaria sets you up for secondary infections? Iron is supposed
to be kept out of the blood but if red cell destruction is too
high, you are going to see it and bacteria will get it. Your
iron storage level has nothing to do with what happens during
excessive red blood cell destruction. To handle this very high
influx of iron internally, apoferritin has to be formed. As
you indicated, there is a lag, what do you think happens to
the extra iron coming out of red blood cells Tom?

Even a serum ferritin of 12 does not mean that you have iron
deficiency anemia. The serum ferritin is always checked in
anyone with anemia to rule out iron as the cause. A 12 means
that iron is low, you may or may not have anemia.

If you were going to be sensible, I'd be willing to talk more
with you but bringing up homosexuality and baby killing in a
thread on iron goes beyound the relm of rational thought. Good
bye Tom you have just been voted off the weakest link.

[Justin Bon]

watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message
news:<3c605ffe@news.nucleus.com>...
> Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message
> > news:<3c5ffd8e@news.nucleus.com>...
> >> Justin Bond <justin_bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme.
> >> >> Heme is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is
> >> >> heme iron. Since the heme iron in meat is not
> >> >> regulated by the body in its' rate of absorption ..
> >> >> then the iron stores slowly but surely rise ..
>
> >> > My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of
> >> > me...
>
> >> > There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for
> >> > iron, one of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme
> >> > form which is found only in animal products, most
> >> > particularly red meat.
>
> >> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retr-
> >> > ieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract
>
> >> > How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate
> >> > digestive structure for absorbing something found only
> >> > in animal products a proof that we're really meant to
> >> > be vegetarians?
> >>
> >> The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
> >> process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which
> >> might be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding
> >> from the nose and mouth.
>
> > I knew this was going to be good ;)
>
> > You honestly believe that we evolved a specialized
> > digestive structure just for those times when we get a
> > bloody nose and/or mouth and swallow our blood?
>
> > Justin
>
> No .. I don't think we evolved this .. it has been with us
> forever.

Oh, you're a creationist. Its all coming together.

FWIW, I think it takes a lot of guts to stake out such
contrary views. I hope when you're looking back on all this
that it was worth it.

Justin

[Watchman]

Martin Banschbach <mbansch314@aol.com> wrote:
> watchman <watchman@nucleus.com> wrote in message

>> Since they have now begun to say .. " Even though we appear
>> to be healthy .. plenty of red blood cells .. UNLESS we
>> have a 'certain amount' of stored iron .. then we can STILL
>> be .. anemic." .. would make 'sense' .. to you? ;)
>>
>> Who loves ya. Tom

> This is actually one of your more sensible statements Tom. I
> can't believe what you stooped to to try to explain wild
> primate behavior.

YOU brought up behavior in monkeys being relevant .. and I
showed through 'behavior' .. all behavior is not proper.

> Vegans get malaria, look at the red cell loss and the free
> unbound iron in these patients Tom. Know why malaria sets
> you up for secondary infections? Iron is supposed to be kept
> out of the blood but if red cell destruction is too high,
> you are going to see it and bacteria will get it. Your iron
> storage level has nothing to do with what happens during
> excessive red blood cell destruction.

So when the lactoferrin has been shown to rendered ineffective
in the body by being overly saturated .. this is a 'common'
thing.. a 'defect' in the bodies immune system response? It is
NOT the fact when there appears 'unbound' / free iron in the
body the lactoferrin is forever 'shuttling' this iron around
and thereby not 'being prepared' by being 'unsaturated' .. ALL
OF THE TIME in a healthy person?

> To handle this very high influx of iron internally,
> apoferritin has to be formed. As you indicated, there is a
> lag, what do you think happens to the extra iron coming out
> of red blood cells Tom?

This is what I say about apoterritin . It is not formed UNLESS
it is needed for LONG TERM STORAGE.. and apoferritin would not
normally appear in a vegetarian. As to the malaria... those
with higher iron stores cannot 'kick' malaria and quinine is
an iron chelator/binder.

Since the UPPER LIMIT of iron has been shown to be much lower
than what was previously thought to be 'safe' .. then the
percentage of 'anemic' people based on iron parameters
properly checked would fall far lower than reported today.

Since they are actively looking for an iron gene 'defect' in
Africa I would assume they have noticed a significant amount
of iron disorder in that continent.

And checking the incidence of malaria in the records they
came to the correlation of iron supplementation inb certain
areas of Africa led to a significnt rise in malaria which
was endemic.

> Even a serum ferritin of 12 does not mean that you have iron
> deficiency anemia. The serum ferritin is always checked in
> anyone with anemia to rule out iron as the cause. A 12 means
> that iron is low, you may or may not have anemia.

According to those researchers in the iron field .. if you
have ANY ferritin then this means you are 'storing' iron and
it is not be used ACTIVELY in the body. Thusly .. if you have
ZERO ferritin BUT have good high blood parameters .. you have
PRECISELY 'enough' iron on board.. and SHOULD NOT be
considered to be 'anemic' BECAUSE you are NOT 'anemic' .. in
the blood.

> If you were going to be sensible, I'd be willing to talk
> more with you but bringing up homosexuality and baby killing
> in a thread on iron goes beyound the relm of rational
> thought. Good bye Tom you have just been voted off the
> weakest link.

I'm one of the most sensible guys I know .. ;)

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Drceephd]

>Subject: Re: watchman may be right From: mbansch314@aol.com
>(Martin Banschbach Ph.D.) Date: 2/3/02 1:11 PM Central
>Standard Time Message-id:
><20020203141100.21471.00000940@mb-fa.aol.com>

> I don't think that your observation that iron over load is
> linked to insulin resistence is new because iron over load
> syndrome is an area of research that has been and continues
> to be intensely studied because this may be the most common
> genetic defect in humans.
>

Why is it that each time we define a modern disease of
affluence like heme iron and iron overload we get someone
proposing a genetic defect to explain it?

I would agree that humans have a very characteristic genetic
defect. We are not carnivores.

Cee

[Justin Bon]

drceephd@aol.com (DRCEEPHD) wrote in message
news:<20020203185839.28571.00000699@mb-mn.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: watchman may be right From: mbansch314@aol.com
> >(Martin Banschbach Ph.D.) Date: 2/3/02 1:11 PM Central
> >Standard Time Message-id:
> ><20020203141100.21471.00000940@mb-fa.aol.com>
>
> > I don't think that your observation that iron over load is
> > linked to insulin resistence is new because iron over load
> > syndrome is an area of research that has been and
> > continues to be intensely studied because this may be the
> > most common genetic defect in humans.
> >
>
> Why is it that each time we define a modern disease of
> affluence like heme iron and iron overload we get someone
> proposing a genetic defect to explain it?
>
> I would agree that humans have a very characteristic genetic
> defect. We are not carnivores.

Apparantly the Masai didn't get your memo ;)

Justin

[Martin Ban]

drceephd@aol.com (DRCEEPHD) wrote in message
> Why is it that each time we define a modern disease of
> affluence like heme iron and iron overload we get someone
> proposing a genetic defect to explain it?
>
> I would agree that humans have a very characteristic genetic
> defect. We are not carnivores.
>
> Cee

Hemochromatosis is considered to be a genetic defect.

To see the kind of ferritin levels needed to make a diagnosis
of hemochromatosis, the regulation of iron release into the
blood from gut cells has to be defective. Look up the
regulation of iron release into blood Cee. If not needed, the
iron stays in the cells that line the gut and comes out in
feces when the gut cells slough off.

Iron is stored in many tissues in the human body using
ferritin. If too little is stored, iron deficiency
anemia occurs.

Now, what is a safe storage pool? A 300 ferritin where
hemochromatosis is diagnosed is certainly not safe.

I've seen some say that a level below 100 is safe.

I've had two serum ferritins run, the first was 54 and the
second several years later was 42.

The average ferritin for vegans is in the middle 20's and it's
in the middle 40's for omnivors.

My goal is to try to go as low as I can go by not using foods
like breakfeast cereals that have added iron. I would like to
see the U.S. do what Sweden did and get iron out of flour. I
am not willing to give up meat.

A serum ferritin of 12 or less says that you do not have
enough iron to support heme synthesis. Because iron can react
with so many things, I personally think that the best
approach is to keep it as low as possible. One way I do this
is by donating blood. Not only do I help someone else, but I
help myself.

[Justin Bon]

drceephd@aol.com (DRCEEPHD) wrote in message
news:<20020203231431.13504.00001076@mb-bg.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: watchman may be right From:
> >justin_bond@hotmail.com (Justin Bond) Date: 2/3/02 7:47 PM
> >Central Standard Time Message-id:
> ><9e410988.0202031747.162df51@posting.google.com>
>
> >Apparantly the Masai didn't get your memo ;)
> >
> >Justin
>
> Interesting. What nutritional school of thought do the Masai
> fund and teach other than survival?
>
> I have seen some videos of them bleeding their animals and
> eating the blood clots. However, as a farm kid, we never
> bled our animals, nor drank their blood. Grandpa did
> sometimes make "blood pudding", but I politely refused to
> eat the crap.
>
> Did you post have any other value?

The Masai also regard liver as being where the soul is stored
and too pure to be touched with human hands, and the liver is
the bodies richest store of iron.

But my point about the Masai is they eat a carnivorous diet -
they don't eat plant foods - and they are a very tall, lean,
muscular and healthy people. I can't imagine putting a truly
herbivorous species like, say, rabbits, on a carnivorous diet
and expect that they would show good health. I suppose you
could argue that they'll still keel over from heart disease,
but with average blood cholesterol levels of 145 mg/dl, that
isn't too likely. Of course I don't think humans are
carnivores but omnivores, but its interesting to note that
people who exclude plant foods from their diet are extremely
healthy and robust, whereas vegans get progressively more and
more frail over time.

Justin

[Martin Ban]

drceephd@aol.com (DRCEEPHD) wrote in message
> I do not donate blood. I need all that I have. Why should I
> contribute to the stupidity of those who may want my blood?
> I do accept that in the case of accidents, someone may
> benefit. However, those who benefit the most are those in
> the medical profession. How else can they carry out their
> perverse blood sacrifices without killing their vicims?
>
> Cee

Dear Cee,

With time, I can usually get a pretty good feel for the person
that I'm interacting with. Few people are willing to be open
to others in this kind of forum. I have always shared, even
when that cost me dearly.

Since I was having problems with my son while he was growing
up I decided to try to spend more time with him after he was
diagnosed with ADD (mis-diagnosis). I would take him fishing
with me but he could not last long unless the fish were
biting very good. He wanted to hunt so I decided to try this
activity with him.

He did not really like to fish and I did not really like to
hunt but I decided that if the only way to spend an entire day
with him was to hunt, then that is what I would do.

Well, once the ethical vegans found this out, the attacks
really started. The flames thrown my way had no impact but
once the flames were directed at my son, I decided that
participation in UseNet was no longer an option for me and I
agreed to serve as a moderator for a newsgroup.

Cee, iron is exactly the same as cholesterol, once the blood
level gets high enough, diet can not be responsible for the
elevation, bad genes are the real cause. There are at least 5
different genetic defects in humans that lead to high
cholesterol. For iron, gene mapping is probably going to give
us at least one gene maybe more.

Anyone who got a valid Ph.D. in nutrition would know this.

You want to make a living as a nutritionist. Fine, I have no
problem with that. You probably decided that you needed a
diploma on your office wall to impress your clients. That's
not illegal, even if the degree is bogus.

The U.S. allows it's citizens to have a lot of freedom. If the
title of nutritionist is regulated, you will just have to come
up with another title but you can continue to do business.

John does the same thing that you do but too his credit, he
does not claim an advanced degree in the area of nutrition.

Some people that I interact with in UseNet send me their
personal story via email because they do not want everyone in
the world knowing what they consider to be personal
information. I like to get to know people better because once
I do, it helps with the public interaction.

Ron Roth was willing to talk with me via email. He did not
have to tell me that he had problems with local media
challenging what he was doing. It took courage for him to
share that with me. I never once used that against him in a
public forum.

I did bring it up recently but only to point out that he was
not listed in Quackwatch and that yes he had to deal with
people who did not accept what he was doing as being valid. He
dealt with it and his practice is thriving.

My personal opinion is that he is thriving in part because
of the type of person that he is. Getting results does not
hurt either.

I don't know how your business is going Cee. You are probably
helping some people but if you interact with your clients the
way you interact with people in UseNet, you are not reaching
your full potential.

[Jedilworth]

Nobody "wants" a blood transfusion. They have them because
they could die without one. Why does that make them stupid?
Yes, in the case of accidents MANY people owe their lives to
transfusions. I remember a patient back in the 70's that
received over 150 units of blood. He lay in the ICU for
months, and had every infection you could think of. We all
thought he would die for sure. One day he just started getting
better. Two weeks later he was out of ICU and he eventually
went home. He would NEVER have survived without all of these
transfusions. He had been in a very bad car wreck and was the
passenger in a car that ended up wrapping around a tree.

How does the medical profession benefit from blood
transfusions or donations? I don't understand where you're
coming from with this "blood sacrifices" and "killing their
victims" crap. WHAT are you referring to here? Are you
referring to blood donation? The units are weighed while the
bag is filling, and when it weighs enough the donation is
ended. People donate blood daily without adverse
consequences. If you don't want to donate blood, then fine.
Lots of people don't donate. Why make all these awful
statements that make no sense?

Patients survive daily due to transfusions of packed cells and
platelets. Not all transfusions go to accident victims. Many
are to cancer patients to help them get through chemotherapy.
Some are for different types of anemia; some are due to sickle
cell crises. There are many many reasons people need blood
transfusions. Obviously you've never been in or around a
hospital blood bank, because you don't know whereof you speak.
You'd better hope you never get cancer or get in an accident.

My most memorable moment in blood bank was when I was a med
tech student in 1974. This was before hospitals had
designations like trauma centers, and patients just ended up
at the closest place for medical attention. There was a strike
going on locally, and someone on the picket line tried to
block a truck. He ended up getting shoved into a loading dock
and suffered a crushed chest. The man was brought into our ER
and shoved up to the operating room. He was an O Neg and we
only had one unit on the shelf, as we had been begging Red
Cross for them, but they were allocated to other hospitals.
With an actively bleeding patient on the table, it was an
entirely different story. We put in a STAT call to the ARC and
within about an hour, hospitals all over the city were sending
their O neg's to our blood bank by cab. I watched in awe as
one of the seasoned technologists worked on this STAT. The
rule with blood bank stats was that no one talked to the tech
and fielded the phone for them, if possible, so they could do
their job getting the blood ready. They signed out all blood
themselves and did all paperwork. All units that came in from
other hospitals had to be retyped and then crossmatched
against the patient specimen. At the time we were doing a five
tube X-match (it's done much differently nowadays), so there
were tubes everywhere - 5 for each unit and tubes for each
unit to be typed. She did it all. They were coming down from
the OR taking 5-8 units at a time for this patient. She ended
up X-matching 21 units. I believe the patient made it.

I decided on that day that blood bank would NOT be my first
choice as far as a department I would want to work in, as I'm
not into huge adrenalin rushes. It is literally a life and
death job to work in there, and to hear you denigrate this
just makes my blood boil. Dedicated laboratory people work
their butts off to get blood ready so patients can live. Who
do you think does this when the trauma helicopters come in?
The doctors only put in the orders for blood; it's medical
technologists who get it ready for transfusion. You have no
idea what you're talking about.

Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology

DRCEEPHD wrote:
>
> I do not donate blood. I need all that I have. Why should I
> contribute to the stupidity of those who may want my blood?
> I do accept that in the case of accidents, someone may
> benefit. However, those who benefit the most are those in
> the medical profession. How else can they carry out their
> perverse blood sacrifices without killing their victims?
>
> Cee

[Watchman]

Martin Banschbach <mbansch314@aol.com> wrote:

> Cee, iron is exactly the same as cholesterol, once the blood
> level gets high enough, diet can not be responsible for the
> elevation, bad genes are the real cause. There are at least
> 5 different genetic defects in humans that lead to high
> cholesterol. For iron, gene mapping is probably going to
> give us at least one gene maybe more.

> Anyone who got a valid Ph.D. in nutrition would know this.

So this means your Phd .. is invalid?

Because .. diet HAS been shown to lead to excess iron /
elevated iron in the body. One of the studies was done in
Greenland .. in which they studied the iron .. stored iron
levels of those who ate meat , more meat and then lots of
meat. There was a degree of elevated iron levels relative to
amount of meat eaten. It is called secondary siderosis .

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

[Jay Tanzma]

justin_bond@hotmail.com (Justin Bond) wrote ...

> ...its interesting to note that people who exclude plant
> foods from their diet are extremely healthy and robust,
> whereas vegans get progressively more and more frail
> over time.

Both of those generalizations are absurd.

-Jay

[Drceephd]

mbansch314@aol.com (Martin Banschbach) wrote in message
news:<cba7fed1.0202040848.3a2fa62e@posting.google.com>...
> drceephd@aol.com (DRCEEPHD) wrote in message
> > I do not donate blood. I need all that I have. Why should
> > I contribute to the stupidity of those who may want my
> > blood? I do accept that in the case of accidents, someone
> > may benefit. However, those who benefit the most are those
> > in the medical profession. How else can they carry out
> > their perverse blood sacrifices without killing their
> > vicims?
> >
> > Cee
>
> Dear Cee,
>
> With time, I can usually get a pretty good feel for the
> person that I'm interacting with. Few people are willing to
> be open to others in this kind of forum. I have always
> shared, even when that cost me dearly.
>

My comments concerning our esteemed medical MDs may sound
harsh, but then there are reasons. First, the egotistical SOBs
killed my mother...and yes I won the malpractice suit. They
could not even diagnose peritonitis. Medicine in the US is a
monopoly. I object to that. I view modern medicine as a grand
deception. The germ theory of disease if false. In the same
way that humanity has been lulled into believing that disease
is not the fault of the individual, it is some nasty germ or
virus doing the deed, we now have the "gene" theory of
disease. It is not you fault that you are sick, it is your
faulty genes that is causing you to be sick. Baloney. Maybe we
should sue our parents and grandparents for our faulty genes.

> Since I was having problems with my son while he was growing
> up I decided to try to spend more time with him after he was
> diagnosed with ADD (mis-diagnosis). I would take him fishing
> with me but he could not last long unless the fish were
> biting very good. He wanted to hunt so I decided to try this
> activity with him.
>
> He did not really like to fish and I did not really like to
> hunt but I decided that if the only way to spend an entire
> day with him was to hunt, then that is what I would do.
>
> Well, once the ethical vegans found this out, the attacks
> really started. The flames thrown my way had no impact but
> once the flames were directed at my son, I decided that
> participation in UseNet was no longer an option for me and I
> agreed to serve as a moderator for a newsgroup.
>
> Cee, iron is exactly the same as cholesterol, once the blood
> level gets high enough, diet can not be responsible for the
> elevation, bad genes are the real cause. There are at least
> 5 different genetic defects in humans that lead to high
> cholesterol. For iron, gene mapping is probably going to
> give us at least one gene maybe more.

Anyone with common sense can see the fallacy. Cholesterol and
iron are not similar at all.

Cholesterol does not cause CHD. High cholesterol is a symptom
of CHD. The better question is to ask why has the body
elevated the circulation level of this material? Dietary
cholesterol is not the factor. The artificial lowering of
cholesterol may be a negative since you may well be fighting
the body in doing whatever it is doing. Iron, on the other
hand, is not something that the body can synthesize. Iron can
only come from the dietary. Pity you do not know what toxemia
is. You can map all the genes you want, but you will not
change the facts.

>
> Anyone who got a valid Ph.D. in nutrition would know this.
>

Correction. You think anyone with a valid PhD would AGREE with
that is what you are really saying. My reputation and paycheck
is not dependant upon being a duck in a flock where we all go
quack, quack, quack.

> You want to make a living as a nutritionist. Fine, I have no
> problem with that. You probably decided that you needed a
> diploma on your office wall to impress your clients. That's
> not illegal, even if the degree is bogus.

Bogus??? Damn. I've been had. Do you know how I can get back
the 15 years of my life spent in universities? How can I apply
for a refund for all the tuition, books, etc.? Should I cancel
my alumni dues?

>
> The U.S. allows it's citizens to have a lot of freedom. If
> the title of nutritionist is regulated, you will just have
> to come up with another title but you can continue to do
> business.
>
> John does the same thing that you do but too his credit, he
> does not claim an advanced degree in the area of nutrition.
>
> Some people that I interact with in UseNet send me their
> personal story via email because they do not want everyone
> in the world knowing what they consider to be personal
> information. I like to get to know people better because
> once I do, it helps with the public interaction.
>
> Ron Roth was willing to talk with me via email. He did not
> have to tell me that he had problems with local media
> challenging what he was doing. It took courage for him to
> share that with me. I never once used that against him in a
> public forum.
>
> I did bring it up recently but only to point out that he was
> not listed in Quackwatch and that yes he had to deal with
> people who did not accept what he was doing as being valid.
> He dealt with it and his practice is thriving.
>
> My personal opinion is that he is thriving in part because
> of the type of person that he is. Getting results does not
> hurt either.
>
> I don't know how your business is going Cee. You are
> probably helping some people but if you interact with your
> clients the way you interact with people in UseNet, you are
> not reaching your full potential.

I am doing the best that I can. My clients are interested in
regaining or maintaining their health. Since the nutrition
taught in the universities cannot do this, they use my
services. Very few complaints except that they wished that I
had some magic pill like the docs push. Others usually comment
that they wished they had come to me before they went so far
down the yellow brick road of modern medicine.

Cee

[John 'The]

x-no-archive: yes

Snobs be gone!

Once upon a time, our fellow drceephd rambled on about "Re:
watchman may be right." Our champion being bored in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

>My comments concerning our esteemed medical MDs may sound
>harsh, but then there are reasons.

Quack, Quack, Quack!

>Medicine in the US is a monopoly. I object to that. I view
>modern medicine as a grand deception.

Agreed!

>The germ theory of disease if [sic] false.

Agreed, *only* if you mean that a weak immune system is what
causes diseases.

Be plain, good son, and homely in they drift; Riddling
confession finds but riddling shrift. -- Romeo and Juliet

>In the same way that humanity has been lulled into believing
>that disease is not the fault of the individual, it is some
>nasty germ or virus doing the deed, we now have the "gene"
>theory of disease. It is not you fault that you are sick, it
>is your faulty genes that is causing you to be sick. Baloney.

Agreed!

Most doctors offices would be empty if everyone took their
health seriously.

Where we disagree is that DrCeePhd would be just as much out
of work as MDs would be. :-)

Everyman is there own doctor!
--
John Gohde, Achieving good health is an Art, NOT a Science!

The www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com website is a
cross-browser, cross-platform friendly site.

[Mark Doran]

"Martin Banschbach" <mbansch314@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cba7fed1.

> but bringing up homosexuality and baby killing in a thread
> on iron goes beyound the relm of rational thought.

Damn! I wish I hadn't killfiled him now: that must have been
worth seeing!

M.