[CKD] Carb up/Fat

[mista]

I am pretty psyched to be back on a low carb diet. I just have on quick question regarding the carb up! I keep reading that you should keep your fat intake relatively low on carbup days but when i hear realtively low I autmtaically think of 20g's or less? I used the calculator site and it worked out to 60grams? Is this correct? Im 188 pounds so i was wondering what would be the proper amount of fat to consume on my carb up days? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Trainerdan]

60 grams is low-fat. Have fun on the carb-ups. They are supposed to be fun, this is not a deprivation diet.

If you are eating 6 meals per day (YOU ARE, RIGHT?!). this means 10g of fat per meal. That's not much.

Now go eat some Healthy Choice Ice Cream and Twizzlers. :D

[mista]

Thanx a lot for replying man i really appreciate it! Damn this weekends gonna be fun :P Oh by the way is there a percentage breakdown for the carbups like 70% carbs etc etc?

[mista]

Oops! Just one more thing? does the source of the hi GI carb matter? Like would the results vary if i used sucrose or dextrose? I know fructose isn't that good of a selection becuase it would refill the liver rather then the muscle glycogen!

[Trainerdan]

Liquid glucose, sucrose, and small amounts of fructose maximize blood glucose and insulin secretion.

Carb-ups should start with high-glycemic liquid carbs, and progress over the weekend to solid low-glycemic carbs.

As far as ratios, use the calculator to figure your weekend intake. I linked to it in the "Calories" thread at the top of the forum.

Have fun, and let me know how it goes ... I am REALLY looking forward to my carb-up this weekend. It's been a rough week. :p

Maybe I'll post my menu for this weekend here ... LOL ...

[Trainerdan]

I went to the calculator, and these are the ratios it gave for me
(225 lbs, 12.6% bf, male):

FOR THE FIRST 24 HOURS OF CARB-UP:

Carbs: 70% (3,575 cals, or 893 grams) :)
Protein: 15% (192 grams)
Fat: 15% (85 grams)


FOR THE SECOND 24 HOURS OF CARB-UP:

Carbs: 60% (536 grams)
Protein: 20% (179 grams)
Fat: 20% (79 grams)

[mista]

Thanx again man!! :) Man the only thing i don't miss about these diets are the crossovers into ketosis land! Damb im feeling like crap hehe which we'll make the weekend that much sweeter :P thanx a lot man

[Zeus]

I'm on a TKD...no weekend goodness for me :cry: ...oh well.

[mista]

Zeus, I've often thought about switching to a tkd! Are you pleased with the results you're getting and are you able to feul your workouts a lot better then on the ckd? Because thats my main reason for wanting to switch! Maybe you can give me some info on the tkd diet. All i know is that you take in carbs before or after your workout session! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Chantel]

"Carb-ups should start with high-glycemic liquid carbs, and progress over the weekend to solid low-glycemic carbs."

Question, would skim milk be a good liquid carb to start with?

tia

[Zeus]

Zeus, I've often thought about switching to a tkd! Are you pleased with the results you're getting and are you able to feul your workouts a lot better then on the ckd? Because thats my main reason for wanting to switch! Maybe you can give me some info on the tkd diet. All i know is that you take in carbs before or after your workout session! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

-Yes, I am pleased with the results I'm getting thus far with the TKD. However, I do not think that it's any better than a CKD as far as enhancing performance during the workout. Personally, the carbohydrates don't do THAT much for me in terms of energy. Keep in mind that just because it doesn't boost my energy; it [the pre-workout carbohydrates] won't boost your energy levels. I do believe that the TKD is a more efficient approach at losing fat compared to the CKD.

I summed up the TKD on another thread; I'll reiterate it here:

Ok here's the TKD in a nutshell- You follow a SKD (Standard Ketogenic Diet) like Atkins. The only difference is that you ingest pre-workout carbohydrates (5 grams for every 2 sets performed during weight training). The idea of the pre-workout carbohydrates is to promote post-workout glycogen synthesis without interferring with ketosis for very long. I plan on popping 6 rolls of sweet-tarts 30 minutes before workouts. Why sweet-tarts? They are high glycemic carbohydrates (primarily dextrose) and get absorbed into the bloodstream rather quickly.

Key points-

1) You need carbohydrates to train with weights or your workout WILL SUFFER.

2) Taking in pre-workout carbohydrates lets you get some energy and does not interrupt ketosis for very long (ketosis usually resumes several hours after your workout). Your body will easily use up those carbohydrates while you are lifting weights.

3) As stated earlier pre-workout carbohydrates will promote post-workout glycogen synthesis. Meaning, ingesting protein post-workout is a good idea as the pre-workout carbs will have elevated blood glucose and insulin and will push the protein/amino acids right into the muscle.

4) You get the same benefits of a CKD (wherein you have some carbohydrates in your body for workouts). BUT, you also get the benefits of a low-carb diet where you're in ketosis for a much longer period of time (compared to a CKD). Longer time in ketosis=more fat burned!

[mista]

Thanks a lot for the reply! :) So the you'd only do the carb ups before resistance training seesions or would you also do them before your cardio? And im glad to hear about you success and its also good to hear that this diet is evenn better then a ckd!!

[Zeus]

Thanks a lot for the reply! So the you'd only do the carb ups before resistance training seesions or would you also do them before your cardio? And im glad to hear about you success and its also good to hear that this diet is evenn better then a ckd!!

-Only take in [pre-workout] carbohydrates before weight-training.
If you have any more questions ...ask away.

[RANDY]

The problem I see with ingestig carbs before you train is a sure fire way to inhibit the production of growth hormone. No growth hormone= less muscle and less fat burned.

[Zeus]

The problem I see with ingestig carbs before you train is a sure fire way to inhibit the production of growth hormone. No growth hormone= less muscle and less fat burned.

-Firstly, let me point out the fact that when one is on a ketogenic diet- building muscle is not the goal- fat-loss is the goal. Not to mention the fact that building muscle on a ketogenic diet is not the best way to go about putting on muscle-mass. Very little (if any) muscle will be gained on any type of ketogenic diet. Secondly, the ingestion of pre-workout carbohydrates allows better muscle fiber recruitment during training while preventing fatigue. Also, pre-workout carbohydrates promote post-workout glycogen synthesis. All in all, this allows one to perform intense weight-training while on a ketogenic diet (while preserving muscle and preventing catabolism). As far as burning fat- well, if you're on a 'TKD' and the only time you ingest carbohydrates is pre-workout; you're burning fat constantly (as you never leave ketosis and if you do- you only get 'kicked' out of ketosis for a short period of time). So, as far as fat burning is concerned- it is not negatively affected despite pre-workout carbohydrates.

[BigDaddy32]

Im using an ECA with a 20/200/40 ratio, should I not use it during the carb up?

[Zeus]

Im using an ECA with a 20/200/40 ratio, should I not use it during the carb up?

-'Ephedrine' may lower insulin sensitivity and you do NOT want this to happen during the 'carb-up'. Also, 'ECA' stacks are known to blunt hunger and you do not want this to happen on the 'carb-up' either.

[BigDaddy32]

Originally posted by Zeus


-'Ephedrine' may lower insulin sensitivity and you do NOT want this to happen during the 'carb-up'. Also, 'ECA' stacks are known to blunt hunger and you do not want this to happen on the 'carb-up' either.

cool...thanks for that zeus!

[cmorera]

Originally posted by Zeus


-Firstly, let me point out the fact that when one is on a ketogenic diet- building muscle is not the goal- fat-loss is the goal. Not to mention the fact that building muscle on a ketogenic diet is not the best way to go about putting on muscle-mass. Very little (if any) muscle will be gained on any type of ketogenic diet.

I disagree with this, I am on this diet for the anti-catabolic properties that result, so being a body-builder, muscle catabolization is the sworn enemy, but you don't see this as your body will use stored fat before breakdown of amino acids to glycogen, thus saving muscles, as in the presence of insulin your body will not tap into its own resoviors of energy. The Anabolic Diet (CKD) optimizes Testosterone, Growth Horamone, and Insulin levels for gains in lean muscle mass. And also many people say this technique for gaining muscle is far better than the bulking and cutting/pre-contest phases pro-bodybuilders go through, simply because there is a 'running in place' effect that kinda happens with these types of methods, gain muscle then lose muscle.....and especially since I am not contesting, I just want a consisten gain of muscle, while maintaining (or perhaps slightly lowering first) my body fat percentages.

I have heard awesome testomonials also of people on the Anabolic Diet (basically CKD) gaining lean mass AND reducing body fat simultaneously. Obviously, a strait Ketosis diet would hasten fat loss, but this supercompensation period on the weekends reportedly is similar in effect to steroids due to the extreme hypersensitivity to insulin your body has at the depletion point, and insulin is the most anabolic substance after all. OK, this is my view point from what I have researched and heard other people say, hope this rings a bell to a FEW of you out there!

[fridayeyes]

I know I'm definitely gaining muscle while doing this. In fact, I'm gaining a little over half a pound of muscle for every pound of fat I lose. I know I'm reaping the newbie bonus here, but I'll take every scrap of muscle I can get, LOL! :D

I started this primarily as a way to hasten fat loss, and to get my exercise w/o having to do aerobics, which I utterly LOATHE. I'm a total convert now. When I get lean enough to be a little gym-bunny, I want to be a gym-bunny who can LIFT! :)

Cheers,

Friday

[Zeus]

In response to the 'I can build lots 'o' muscle notion on a 'CKD''...well, I once again, disagree with both of you (fridayeyes and cmorera). I will retort with a few excerpts from Lyle McDonald's book ('The Ketogenic Diet'):

-"Irrespective of the mechanisms by which the carb-load might cause muscle growth, a question which must be asked is just how much additional true contractile tissue (i.e. the part of muscle which is not glycogen, water and electrolytes) can be synthesized during a 24-36 hour period of carbohydrate overfeeding. In all likelihood, the answer is very little."

-"Ultimately the question must be asked as to just how much new muscle can be synthesized during the carb-up of 24 to 48 hours. Even assuming zero muscle breakdown during the ketogenic week, the amount of new muscle synthesized is likely to be small. So while individuals may gain a small amount of muscle during a CKD, it should not be expected or counted on."

[fridayeyes]

First off, I agree that the purpose and function of a CKD is to burn fat, not to build muscle. However, as to whether or not you CAN...

That may be what your book says, and I'm sure it's probably true in MOST cases, but I know that some people can indeed build muscle on a CKD because I'm wearing it! I only started lifting in April/May, and we all know that newbs get a bonus in the first 6-9 months. I'm sure I'll eventually hit a point where I can't build and cut at the same time anymore, but unless I've suddenly grown an extra femur, I've got some pretty respectable new pounds of lean stuff. :)

I'm not trying to argue or ruffle feathers here, so I guess all I'm saying is never say never. :)

Cheers,

Friday

[Trainerdan]

My stance is that the CKD is a muscle sparing/fat loss diet.

That said, typically one does not experience a high level of muscle growth during a CKD.

However, you cannot deny the "newbie bonus". If this is someone's first foray into intense weight training -- especially when coupled with the high protein/high fat nature of this diet -- gains in muscle mass can be expected.

In a well-trained individual looking to gain lean mass, a better approach may be to cut-and-bulk. Alternate periods of the CKD with periods of slightly increased nutrient intake (read: overeat) and ultra-intense training.

To build muscle, you need a surplus of calories (again, assuming a seasoned trainee here) and proper stimulus. If you are working in a caloric defecit (at or slightly below AMR), where will your body get the nutrients from to build that new muscle?

[cmorera]

Originally posted by Trainerdan

To build muscle, you need a surplus of calories (again, assuming a seasoned trainee here) and proper stimulus. If you are working in a caloric defecit (at or slightly below AMR), where will your body get the nutrients from to build that new muscle?

So what if the calories are maintained slightly above AMR, say excess of 300 calories a day. You will be gaining weight by 1st law of thermodynamics. One should expect to gain at least some muscle and not have all the gained weight be fat. So I am doing 1.5:1 ration of fat grams to protein, so if I wanted to bulk, I would maintain this ration just up my total caloric intake. Why would I want to do this? To avoid that muscle catabolism that is harbored by carbohydrate diet by taking advantage of the protein sparing effect the CKD has.

Anyways, I have heard success stories about people gaining weight with CKD, and they specefically state they are not endorsing any book or product, just stating their results that occured to them. I don't think adequate research has been done to report the effects of bulking on CKD, so I guess I will see for myself in a while.

[Trainerdan]

So if you are above AMR, and all metabolic needs have been met, you will want to take in your excess calories in a form that will least likely to be stored as fat.

Normally, that would be protein since it requires more metabolically to process.

Once you hit the ceiling on protein intake (depending on your personal needs, dietary history, current anabolic status, etc), then you move to the next macronutrient that require requires substantial energy to process ... carbs.

The last in line ... again, after the required EFA intake & metabolic demands are met ... to be consumed as excess calories is fat.

Fat requires very little for the body to process and store, so why would one want to eat excess fat calories if he/she was looking to maximize lean mass gains without getting excessively fat?

[cmorera]

Originally posted by Trainerdan


Fat requires very little for the body to process and store, so why would one want to eat excess fat calories if he/she was looking to maximize lean mass gains without getting excessively fat?

HHHmmmmm, good point, I will sit on this one for a while...........meanwhile I will see if I can meander a retort........