New member. Need help with cramp and dairy.

[Genvieve]

I've been on a low carb diet since 5th October after reading Gary Taubes's book. I'm aiming for paleolithic as it makes more sense to me, but at the moment I'm still eating cheese and cream. It's been a very big change for me, as I previously had very high carbs and virtually no meat. I'm eating meat, eggs, fish, cheese, cream, and occasional green vegetables. In the short time I've been doing it I've discovered that just about any carbs stop me losing weight.

I have two questions.

Firstly, I'm getting cramp in my legs most nights. It's not severe, and easily controlled by stretching, but I never used to get this, and I'm wondering if I could be deficient in something.

Secondly, I want to make an informed decision about giving up dairy altogether, as this will be a struggle for me, and I wonder if anyone has views or information that might help me.

I'm really happy to join this forum. I've been following it for a while, and it seems to me to be very supportive.

[fishercat]

Firstly, I'm getting cramp in my legs most nights. It's not severe, and easily controlled by stretching, but I never used to get this, and I'm wondering if I could be deficient in something.


Young thai coconuts, if you can get a hold of them. They are like giant anti-cramp pills.

[jellysoda]

Here's a link to an earlier thread where we argue for eternity about pros/cons of eating dairy and whether it fits into the paleo diet:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=400430

[Genvieve]

Thanks so much, both of you. I thought there would be a dairy thread somewhere, but didn't manage to find it on this vast site.

[big_man]

I had the same problem a few weeks ago and added in a calcium supplement and no more cramps. Usually cramps are a lack of calcium or possibly a potassium problem. I would go with the calcium supplement first and see if that did not fix the problem. The other thing is if you are not taking a vitamin d3 supplement I would consider that as that is the cascade vitamin and depending on how much time you spend inside at work you may be short on that one which you need to utilize the rest. Just a few ideas for you, have a great day.

[Nancy LC]

When you first go low carb you lose a lot of water that your body was storing along with glycogen (storage form of glucose). Anyway with that water goes a lot of minerals like magnesium, potassium, calcium and salt, the "electrolyte" minerals. So you can supplement those (if you take potassium, I'd recommend using potassium gluconate powder rather than tablets) or search out foods high in those.

[Nancy LC]

Here's a couple more threads on dairy/giving up foods:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=353663&highlight=giving
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=396613&highlight=giving

I seem to recall another one...

Oh yeah, when I gave up drinking coffee
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=392601

[jem51]

i have found that any cheap potassium supplement works for cramps (usually a small amt will do the trick), although, now i take a pot/mag supplement by Country Life.

re dairy:
you might look at the PaNu site as they go by steps and you do as much desire.
dairy really works for me and is easier for my digestion than anything else i consume. i home culture buttermilk and yogurt, use butter and eat long aged cheeses. i also use 1/2 & 1/2 in my coffee.
everyone is different.

[Kansas Deb]

I found the only thing that eased the leg cramps for me was a broad spectrum mineral supplement. I think the minerals just get out of balance when we change our diet drastically such as going from very high carb to vlc.

[Genvieve]

Thanks everyone. I've just eaten a high carb banana for potassium and bought some calcium and Vit D in sugar and starch tablets. Wikipedia thinks low blood sugar levels can also cause cramps, but the study was on people with diabetes. In any case it would need a high carb supper to give you a very low blood sugar in the middle of the night. Haven't found a young Thai coconut yet.

[amandawald]

Taking magnesium supplements usually helps with cramps, too. I switched from cheapo magnesium oxide ones to either magnesium chloride or chelated magnesium and find that these keep my magnesium deficiency symptoms - such as cramps in the calves at night - at bay better than the mag oxide used to.

Nuts, bone broth and green veggies are good food sources for magnesium if you are not interested in taking supplements.

Oh, and bananas and dried fruit, but the latter has a lot of sugar, are also good.

And, according to Jonny Bowden, orange-fleshed melons, such as the Charentais melon, are very good at replacing your electrolytes - better than the nasty sports drinks, and better at rehydrating you than water. They have lots of goodies and minerals in them and taste nice, too!!!

Good luck!

amanda

PS I wonder where one can get "young Thai coconuts" from apart from in Thailand. I bet they're not thick on the ground in Brum, ey? :lol:

[Genvieve]

I'll clearly have to lurk around fairgrounds, Amanda.

[Nancy LC]

Thanks everyone. I've just eaten a high carb banana for potassium and bought some calcium and Vit D in sugar and starch tablets. Wikipedia thinks low blood sugar levels can also cause cramps, but the study was on people with diabetes. In any case it would need a high carb supper to give you a very low blood sugar in the middle of the night. Haven't found a young Thai coconut yet.
Avocados also have lots of potassium and they are low carb. Hmmm... just realized you're in the UK, might be scarce there.

[Genvieve]

Well, we can sometimes find them at the local Waitrose when we shamble out of our caves.

[Nancy LC]

Well, we can sometimes find them at the local Waitrose when we shamble out of our caves.LOL! Oh man, you guys live in caves over there? I'm jealous.

I live in the avocado capital of the US, maybe the world. I forget they might not be readily available year round like they are here.

[capmikee]

Avocados also have lots of potassium and they are low carb. Hmmm... just realized you're in the UK, might be scarce there.
That may well be true, but what a crazy statement! It boggles my mind that you can get a banana as easily as an apple all over the Northern/Western world.

I don't think bananas have as much potassium as they're cracked up to. For a better high-carb alternative, try potatoes. For a low-carb one, parsley.

from nutritiondata:

1 large banana (136g, 31g carbs): 487 mg potassium
1 small baked potato (138g, 29g carbs): 738 mg potassium
100g sour cream on your baked potato (about half a cup, 3.5g carbs): 141 mg potassium
10 sprigs parsley on your sour cream (uh, maybe put the extra on a salad :p ) (10g, 0.6g carb): 55 mg potassium
1 avocado instead of a potato (136g, 12g carbs): 689 mg potassium

NutritionData doesn't list homemade beef broth, but here's a bouillon version:

Soup, beef broth, bouillon, consomme, prepared with equal volume water
1 cup (241g): 154 mg potassium.

The potassium in broth will be more absorbable because there are no oxalates or carbs. Oxalates are common chemicals in vegetables, especially nuts and greens, that bind to minerals. Carbs also cause minerals to be flushed out, while saturated fat, Vitamin D and Vitamin K2 help the body to absorb and manage minerals. In the long run, not losing minerals is more effective than taking in more.

[Genvieve]

I think a lot of ours come from Israel. I have one in the larder at the moment - it's left over from a party we had at the weekend. I wasn't going to eat it now I'm low carb, so it's lovely to know I can have it. Avocado is one of my favourite foods. Thank you.

[Nancy LC]

Another way to get potassium is from the salt-substitute they probably sell in your grocery.

[macabrem]

Secondly, I want to make an informed decision about giving up dairy altogether, as this will be a struggle for me, and I wonder if anyone has views or information that might help me.


Hi! Welcome to the forums. Although I do Atkins, here's my take on dairy.

1) I do well with it - I lose weight, I don't have digestive issues, it is a good source of protein, it satiates me.

2) My ancestors were likely to be heavy dairy consumers. My family is pretty much 100% Swiss-German. There is no known dairy intolerance for any of my relatives. I figure that I probably have the right genes for processing dairy and making the most of its nutritional value.

Being in the UK, I would assume that you have a favorable genetic profile for consuming dairy.

I definitely encourage you to read the pros and cons using the links that were previously posted.

Have a wonderful day!

[Nancy LC]

Just pointing out, Matt is following Atkins, not Paleo. He might not realize that the Paleo diet doesn't use dairy or what the reasons might be behind that.

Loren Cordain has written a lot of what happens hormonally and at a cellular level when using dairy. But he has put all his newsletter on a subscription basis now. Bleh.

[amandawald]

I'll clearly have to lurk around fairgrounds, Amanda.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

And this post is even better:

Well, we can sometimes find them at the local Waitrose when we shamble out of our caves.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Where is your cave located? Somewhere under Spaghetti Junction??? We drove round the south-east of Birmingham, on our way to Leicester this summer, and I didn't spot that many caves from the motorway...

Please please continue to post more Brit humour!!!

amanda

PS Hope you're having some luck with dealing with the cramps - you might want to try the chelated magnesium you can get online from the Holland & Barretts website, or get some from a local store. Magnesium is good for a million other things, besides cramps, so you can't really go wrong if you supplement with a bit of magnesium.

[amandawald]

Hi again,

Just a thought on dairy: there's a big difference between raw milk products, cultured milk products (yoghurt with live bacteria, for example) and pasteurized milk products.

The former are well-tolerated around the world, whereas the latter are of dubious nutritional value and are not well-tolerated.

If you were to find it difficult to give up dairy altogether, you could always compromise and limit your dairy intake to raw milk cheeses (I know you can get decent cheese at Waitrose, Sainsbury's, Tesco's etc at the deli counter, no need to lurk around fairgrounds waiting for a wheel of cheese to land on your head) and cultured milk products - probably labelled 'probiotic' in the UK. Mind you, these are prohibitively expensive and you can make your own live yoghurt at home for pennies. However, making thick homemade yoghurt is not something I have succeeded at yet... I have only made two attempts and the taste is fine, just the consistency... hmm...

Why exactly are you thinking of giving up dairy, by the way?

amanda

[Tarlach]

I would say all dairy products are of dubious nutritional value and are not well-tolerated around the world.

[amandawald]

I would say all dairy products are of dubious nutritional value and are not well-tolerated around the world.

And there'd be some that would disagree... ;)

amanda

[Tarlach]

They would be incorrect.

...and fighting a losing battle in the wrong forum.

[Genvieve]

Hi Nancy,
Thanks for that. Beef broth and avocado seem to be the way to go.

Matt,
Genetic profiles and dairy are interesting. I've never had any (apparent) problem with dairy, but my sister suffered badly with eczema and asthma until a few years ago when she gave up all dairy and her symptoms resolved almost completely.

Even more interesting is the fact that my sister is an identical twin, and the said twin has never restricted her dairy intake. Apart from mild eczema as a young child she has never had problems.

When they married, they had a double wedding. Normally they're like peas in a pod, but on this occasion one of them looked distinctly bloated. Her doctor had prescribed her steroids as she wanted her skin to be clear for her wedding.

Amanda,

I live in Moseley, South Birmingham.
I'm not yet sure if I want to give up dairy. I'm more inclined to go with the things I believe we evolved to eat (ie paleo), but I started this thread as I wanted more information (which has been wonderfully forthcoming). Gary Taubes has influenced me a lot, but there's not much in his book to help me make my mind up on this particular issue.

[capmikee]

However, making thick homemade yoghurt is not something I have succeeded at yet... I have only made two attempts and the taste is fine, just the consistency... hmm...
I'll refrain from judgments on the value of dairy itself, but I can give you a tip: Yogurt made with raw milk will never get very thick. It has to be pasteurized to denature the proteins and make them stickier. But you should pasteurize it yourself, right before you make the yogurt. Temperature control is critical to making thick yogurt throughout the process. NancyLC posted this explanatory article a while back:

http://www.medicinalfoodnews.com/vol01/issue5/kalab.htm

[Nancy LC]

I keep forgetting about that, that was really cool. Man, with my sous vide I could make some awesome yogurt since I could get it to a very precise temperature. Too bad I don't really do dairy at all, except a little butter occasionally.

[amandawald]

They would be incorrect.

...and fighting a losing battle in the wrong forum.

Woops, better be off then...

amanda