Virgin Olive Oil May Reduce Cholesterol Damage

[tamarian]

Virgin Olive Oil May Reduce Cholesterol Damage
Fri Apr 12,2002

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Just a spoonful of extra virgin olive oil helps the cholesterol go down, results of a small study indicate.

According to the report, adults who consumed 25 milliliters (mL) or nearly 2 tablespoons of virgin olive oil daily for one week showed less oxidation of LDL ("bad") cholesterol and higher levels of antioxidant compounds, particularly phenols, in the blood.

Antioxidants can help prevent oxidative damage, which is caused by free radicals, byproducts of the body's normal processes that can damage body tissues. Studies have shown that the oxidation of LDL cholesterol is associated with the hardening of arteries that can lead to heart disease.

The findings may help to explain the heart healthy benefits of the Mediterranean diet, which is rich in olive oil, fruits, vegetables and grains and low in saturated fat from meat. Studies have documented lower rates of heart disease in countries such as Italy and Spain, where people consume more than one third of their daily calories from fats high in monounsaturated fatty acids. These fats may help to lower total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol, the researchers explain in the April issue of the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

But while all types of olive oil are sources of monounsaturated fat, virgin olive oil also contains higher levels of antioxidants, particularly phenols and vitamin E, because it is less processed.

"Our results support the idea that daily ingestion of virgin olive oil could protect LDL from oxidation," Dr. M. C. Lopez-Sabater from the University of Barcelona in Spain and colleagues report.

Phenols from other sources, such as red wine and onions, have been shown to help control cholesterol but there is little information about the effect of antioxidants from olive oil on cholesterol.

To investigate, the researchers instructed 16 healthy adults to avoid phenol-containing foods such as coffee, tea, wine and vegetables for 4 days. On the fifth day adults consumed 50 mL of virgin olive oil--about 3.3 tablespoons--alone or with bread.

The participants avoided all other foods with phenols for the next 24 hours and then ate their regular diet, supplemented by 25 mL of olive oil daily, for a week. Study volunteers were also told to avoid high-fat foods such as butter, margarine, cooking oil, nuts, baked foods and eggs.

Blood samples taken before and during the study revealed higher levels antioxidant compounds, including vitamin E and phenols, after one week. Similarly, levels of oleic acid, the predominant type of fat in olive oil, as well as monounsaturated fatty acids, were higher. These changes were associated with a slower LDL oxidation rate.

"In addition to the LDL-lowering effect of virgin olive oil, our results suggest that an intake of 25 mL/day could increase the resistance of LDL to oxidation because it becomes richer in oleic acid and antioxidants," the study concludes. "These benefits could be achieved by including virgin olive oil daily in our diet."

SOURCE: European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2002;56:114-120.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020412/hl_nm/cholesterol_food_1

[razzle]

great find, wa'il.

But weird: "Study volunteers were also told to avoid high-fat foods such as butter, margarine, cooking oil, nuts, baked foods and eggs" -- a list that includes both foods known to raise and foods known to lower various types of cholesterol.

Just to reiterate: most cooking oils, nuts, eggs, and butter are all plenty food for us! :)

[alecmcq]

Razzle
Agree with what you say except for the cooking oils reference. Most cooking oils are processed and taken to very high temperatures and this causes a huge increase in trans fatty acids in the oil, which is key contributor to LDL increase.

All the other foods you mention are either very natural (nuts, eggs) or not overprocessed (butter), and are therefore "good".
Cheers
Alec

[EMT]

Alecmcq
Would you have any references you could site regarding the processing of commercial oils and the subsequent increase in trans fat?
Thank you

[doreen T]

hi EMT,

Try to get your hands on a copy of Fats That Heal Fats That Kill (http://www.udoerasmus.com/fatsmain.htm) by Udo Erasmus. It's an eye-opener :)

Doreen

[alecmcq]

Doreen
Thanks, you got there before I did! There are 2 very good refs: the one Doreen mentioned (a bit heavy!) and a shorter simpler one called Good Fats and Oils by Siegfried Gursche.
Cheers
Alec

[jujubaby]

The idea that virgin olive oil was a good fat and easy to add to the diet, has been around for quite awhile. But it is always good to see studies that really support the idea.

I remember as a child, the grown ups around us were going on a strange diet, whereby people were losing weight by consuming several ounces of oil.
I recall, the major problem at that time was how to ingest the required amount. To date I have not found anyone who could remember that diet or what kind of oil was used.
There may have been additional requirements, such as omitting sugar and flour products, but I only remember the one requirement .

Wouldn't that be a big kicker if it turned out to be extra virgin oilive oil?

[doreen T]

hi jujubaby,

PP = Protein Power, pub. '95 and '96 by the Drs. Eades

PPLP = Protein Power LifePlan, pub. '00 by the Eades.

Your library likely has a copy of these books that you could borrow. I highly recommend you have a read through PPLP .. there is good information there about fats and essential fatty acids. :)

Doreen

[jujubaby]

yes I'm always interested in new material to read about losing weight and nutrition.
I recently purchased several books in order to read what was current with low carbing and it always seems that they get so far to say that we shouldn't eat to induce an insulin spike, but fall short of saying that there is something to Atkins total low carb diet/restrictions.
I don't know if you remember an early posting of mine where I went to see the intern about a bad bronchial cough and fell into bad graces with the Dr?
Well, after discussing how "bad" she thought my "asthma; had become and stating I was in a "downward spiral" she added to the bunch of medicines, glucophage. Supposedly the New England Journal of Medicine had completed a study with people who are overweight and in danger of becoming diabetics, were put on two protocols.
The first was with people given a restrictive diet; {surely must be low carbs} and one group given glucophage. Out of the group with glucophage, several lost weight that had difficulty losing weight. But so did the diet restrictive people lose weight and controlled the advent of diabetes.
So, the study is still incomplete, but a new endo that I went to tuesday said that I was not a diabetic and yes what I was trying to do by my restricing sugar, white flour and white potatoes was as good as the diabetics dieting to GET OFFF MEDICATIONS.
He was careful not to say that she was wrong giving the glucophage, {doesn't want to get involved in a court case, have no fear} but he sees no evidence that the study warrants the use of non diabtetics taking glucophage.
The logical question is, do all the people that become diabetics begin to lose weight when they are finally put on glucophage?
Allegedly the medicine prevents too much insulin being produced and prevents hunger or supposedly "controls" appetite.

So back to the diet by calories?

One of the books that I read was DR. Heller's "Carbo addictics diet" and how to lose weight by having NO carbs all day until one meal for one hour only, when you can consume meat and potatoes and fruit and dessert.{here simplified}
The other books were Dr. Atkins new Revelations/explanations; Nutrition for Healing; Dr. Schwarzbein's cook book; and False Fat and how to cleanse and detoxify the body of these excess fats/fluids then on to real fat loss.

Not sure of what to think/do now!

[Oldsalty]

I saw in your profile that you do not make mention of reading Bernstein, this is the one book that all diabetics and pre diabetics should have, it is my "bible". Diabetes Solution is the name and here is his web site.
http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/index.shtml

[IslandGirl]

Jujubaby, OldSalty is right, Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution is THE book to read if you want to know about (both types of) diabetes.

I'd also recommend you do a websearch on Glucophage and find out the SPECIFIC actions of this particular drug (or perhaps even search here in the Diabetes forum) as some diabetes "drugs" force down blood sugars by causing the pancreas to INCREASE it's output of insulin and some actually reduce the blood sugar itself by some mechanism I'm not clear on but I THINK involves increasing cells' sensitivity to the existing insulin. Two very different approaches which can make a great difference in the results.

The first was with people given a restrictive diet; {surely must be low carbs} and one group given glucophage. Out of the group with glucophage, several lost weight that had difficulty losing weight. But so did the diet restrictive people lose weight and controlled the advent of diabetes.

Well, NOT necessarily is this diet referred to a low carb one... if it's not SPECIFIED as low carb, the odds are that it's actually low fat.

[Oldsalty]

Doreen thanks for the reference to the book Fats that Heal and Fats that Kill, I am half way through reading it and so far I particularly enjoyed the explanation concerning the conversion of sugar into triglycerides. I have not seen the chemistry involved in this conversion explained so clearly before.
To quote "Refined dietary sugars almost always turn into fats, and starches can also turn into saturated fats" also "Sweet fruits contain starches but also large amounts of sugar, and can lead to fat production when they form more than a small part of our diet"
There is of course much more detail in the book and I endorse Doreen's recommendation that this book should be added to your low carb reading list.
Here is the link again.
http://www.udoerasmus.com/fatsmain.htm

[jujubaby]

Hello everyone;

Just wanted to thank you all for the suggested readings.
I have started reading on line Dr. bernstein's book and will get it when I pick up Br. Schwarzbeins principle.

Getting kicked out of a group practice is most humiliating.
Now when I get new Drs. I will have to bring the books with me if I want to defend my program to any of these so called healers.

[EMT]

Hi
This goes back a few messages...but I did review the "fats that heal..." book and it confirmed what I understand to be true...that it is the hydrogenation process- not high temp alone- that creates trans fat. Cooking oils are not hydrogenated unless they are made into a spread-type product. Just wanted to clarify that so that we dont confuse anyone into thinking that cooking oils are "bad".

[jujubaby]

HI Guys:
from what I understand about oils, and my favorite "premium virgin olive oil, first cold pressed" you can "cook" with the best olive oil as long as you do not use very hi heat that breaks it down. Certainly, when sauteeing garlic or other veggies in a cold pan with cold olive oil, you can get the flavor and perfum of the garlic and onion to flavor your light sauce or to quick cook steak or shrimp etc.

Being of Italian heritage, it was passed down in the family to switch oils when sauteeing or frying. But I have since learned that is not done in Italy, they use frist pressed Virgin olive oil for all their cooking. { no such thing having two oils in the house} Also, they do not "dip" french bread or Italian bread in oil as an appetizer. I would bet that trick was used to have people sample the makers of their finest oils. When pressing oil, even the best houses press a second, third and fourth time to get the valuable oil out of the olives. This has to be like pressing grapes for wine.
guess which pressing will make the best wine?

again, thank you for the book recommendations. I still have not found a cure or the best treatment for gout so, when it breaks through the medicine I take daily, I have to switch to fruits and lite foods for a week at least. Some times I lose weight on that but it never stays "lost"

[alecmcq]

EMT, you said...

"This goes back a few messages...but I did review the "fats that heal..." book and it confirmed what I understand to be true...that it is the hydrogenation process- not high temp alone- that creates trans fat. Cooking oils are not hydrogenated unless they are made into a spread-type product. Just wanted to clarify that so that we dont confuse anyone into thinking that cooking oils are "bad"."

Not true. I quote Udo Erasmus, "Fats that Kill, Fats that Heal" Chapter 16 From Seed to Oil pp96-97:

"Deodorization takes place at a destructively high temperature - 240 to 270C (464 to 518F) - for 30 to 60 minutes. When heated to temperatures above 150C (302F), unsaturated fatty acids become mutagenic, which means that they can damage our genes (and those of our offspring). Above 160C (320F), trans fatty acids begin to form. Above 200C (392F), trans-fatty acids form in substantial quantities. Above 220C, the rate of trans-fatty acid production increases exponentially."

This quote is in the context of the process of simply processing seeds to regaulr supermarket cooking oil. Nothing to do with hydrogenation, (although of course hydrogenation does of course also create trans fatty acids)

Just wanted to clarify that so that we don't confuse anyone into thinking that cooking oils are OK.

[mtnbkmark]

Here's another book on fats recommended to me by a friend of mine.

Know Your Fats by Mary G. Enig.

[jujubaby]

From what you write based on the book, about good and bad fats, we can not use cold pressed olive oil in sauteeing? Even if the temperature is not at the so called smoking point?
Does this mean any heating of my cold pressed olive oil, reduces it to garbage?
This does not go with the idea that the reason Meditterainean peoples have less problem with fats is because they use olive oils.
Certainly those peoples plus my ancestors fried many foods ie; eggplant, special pastries,chicken, pan fried steak, and the wonderful meatball etc.

[alecmcq]

Jujubaby
No, it does not mean that. Firstly, I wanted to correct the misleading impression from a poster that Udo Erasmus (the leading scientist on the science of fats) was of the opinion that supermarket cooking oils were quite healthy. They are not for the reason I quoted from his book.

Don't forget that cold pressed olive oil has not been de-odorised at high heat and therefore has not yet been chemically changed to include trans fats.

You are spot on in that the smoking point is the critical heat level above which trans fats begin to form (according to Erasmus). The smoking point of various different oils are different eg Olive oil has a smoke point of 190C, but Flax oil is only 112C.

I am no cook or scientist (I am a better researcher!), but it seems that sauteeing in olive oil is fine as long as the temp does not go too high ie above 190C. Does olive oil go over 190C to sautee? I don't know.

Does that make sense? I am absolutely with you on the Mediterranean diet and use of olive oil and lack of CHD etc etc. Question is, do the Mediterraneans cook with olive oil over the smoking point?

[jujubaby]

Hi Alecmcg:

thanks for the clarification. I really do not know if the mediterranean peoples cook past the smoking point or not. But I do know from when I was a child, my mom, although born here in the US, made wonderful fried pastries called Zepelins. {something between a New Orleans Benget and a donut}
She did them mainly at Christmas times and other Holidays, much like the Jewish families,Greeks and Italians.

We ate them with drizzeled honey or powdered sugar. Now I know to get them to a golden brown the oil had to be hot. But I also know if it got to the smoking point she threw out the oil.

It is interesting to note that commercial food establishments save any cooking oil for future use. Some may clarify it by straining left over food particals and burnt or dark pieces out of the oil, but save it to use they most certainly did.

So the question is, is the American public at risk everyday especially the kids?

I'm sure I'm much older than you and we got away from cooking like mom during the beginning of low fat and no fat in our foods. So I'm beginning to go back to how mom cooked and one of my favorite simple peasant food is:

escarol cut into bite size pieces;
thrown into sautee pan of extra olive oil, slightly cooking chopped garlic cloves,

toss till leaves glisten with oil and start to wilt;
add one can of lightly salted chicken stock
add one can of garbazo beans;
simmer and serve with grated parmesan cheese.
You didn't ask for a receipe but it came to my mind thinking about mom.

[EMT]

alecmcq
Thanks for the info...I did not buy Udo's book, so I stand corrected if what you state is true. But again, if it is in fact true, cooking oil would only be problematic if used for frying or high-heat baking, no? I dont know how familiar you are with fats outside of this book's reference, but wouldn't that make canola oil "bad" also? Or are you saying it depends on the processing? I clearly need to read up on this topic more, but appreciate any more info anyone has on the topic.

[alecmcq]

EMT

Sorry for delay in replying, I have been working 16 hour days!!

I know a bit about this because I used to work for a cooking oil manufacturer and I also have researched this stuff a lot due to my very high (404 initially!!) cholesterol level. This is kinda motivating, as the Dr basically said "Change what you eat or die", and he then told me to dramatically reduce my fat intake (and we all know what happens when you do that!). So I read lots and have ended up here.

Any commercial cooking oil that has gone through the de-oderising process (ie almost 100% of them) has had a chemical change made to them: they have had a huge increase in trans fatty acids. This chemical change remains when the oil is then cooled for bottling etc. They are not safe for any use for those of us with high cholesterol.

Yes, this does include canola oil and almost all the supposedly "good" cooking oils.

How do you solve this? Use fresh cold pressed oils from the health food store and do not take them above the smoking point. I have even seen some cold pressed oils being sold in my supermarket (maybe somebody there is getting the message!). You can usually tell if the oil is OK if it is sold in a dark bottle. Light breaks down some of the good qualities of cold pressed oils and they don't keep too long, so they are bottled in dark/black bottles and given a short shelf life. I keep mine in the fridge and have a clearout every now and then.

Cold pressed Extra Virgin Olive Oil is different. There is something about olive oil that makes it less susceptible to light, and it is therefore OK in a clear bottle. But only cold pressed extra virgin will do.

If you want to know all there is to know on this, do go and buy Erasmus and read him. It is the most important book on the subject and EVERY person who has a cholesterol problem should read this book.

Erasmus is not a quack. He is the officially recognised world leader in chemical research on fats and oils. He just has results and views that make the fats and oils industry very angry because all of their processing is shown to be very unhealthy. Therefore you rarely get to hear about him. If he was saying that cooking oils were really healthy, his name would be on every bottle!

Having said that, it is us, the consumers, that have asked the commercial manufacturers of oils to do all this processing. We buy the clear oil without the smell, and funnily enough they make more of what we buy!

I hope you find out all you can on this subject. It is one of the two most critical factors in cholesterol control (the other is about sugar and Triglycerides, but I hope we all know this on this site!! :-))

Take care out there. There are lots of traps for players without the information.

[jujubaby]

Hi you guys!!
Thanks for the information about the cooking ils and irst pressed olive oil. I knew that oil could spoil from the light and that's why most good oils come in dark bottles. I have switched to "Premium first pressed extra virgin olive oil" and call it my medicine, when I put it in salads or the saute pan .

When I was a child, during the big war, butter was impossible to get and some one perpetrated the first evil thing on us at that time. Margarine!! It came in a plastic bag and you had to color it yourself by schwooshing it between your fingers while still in the bag of course!

I have a question, when the doctor said to change what you eat, may I ask what were you eating?

I recently purchased Dr. Schwarzbein's principle and cookbook. IT's only a short time and I'm on the "healing " phase, but don't know when that is over and what to do next?

I see by your stats that you did very well on your choozen program. May I ask again what you have been doing? It nice to see some one successful. But because i have some physical problems, I think I have to do a low carb AND the dreeded lower calorie thing, because the scale doesnot move downward. I shouldn't say that it doesn't move, it just fluctates just when I think I lost a pound or two.

[EMT]

Alecmcq
Thank you so much for your detailed explanation...I found the information very useful. One of the reasons I did not buy Erasmus' book was b/c the one at the bookstore was from 1992...do you know if there is a more current edition or some other current references out there as well?
I admire you for taking the initiative to learn so much about your health!

[mtnbkmark]

alecmcq, what are some brand names of cold pressed oils that are good for cooking?

Thanks,
Mark

[EMT]

Alecmcq
Just wanted to let you know I found (and ordered) a copy of Erasmus' book from 1999...just wanted to let you know so you don't have to bother answering my last question.

[DebPenny]

Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I haven't read Dr. Ersmus' book (and probably won't -- 199 chapters on fat and oils seems a bit much to me ;) ), but when I read my low-carb "bible," The Schwarzbein Principle, I took to heart what Dr. S. said.

She said that 1) you should use only cold pressed oils, but that 2) you should not use polyunsaturated oils for cooking because they break down much easier and at lower temperatures to have trans fats.

Luckily, I've never really liked or used oils other than butter and olive oil, both of which do not break down easily in cooking. And my favorite olive oil is not only cold pressed, but unfiltered. It has lots more of the antioxidants that are so good for us and tastes wonderful! And it even has a longer "shelf life."

;-Deb
:daizy:

[doreen T]

Clarified butter (ghee) and rendered animal fat (chicken and pork esp.) are wonderful for cooking :) They don't become altered into harmful transfats when heated, and have a high smoking point, which makes them suitable for quick, higher-heat cooking, such as a stir-fry.

Accordiing to fitday (ie, the USDA), chicken fat is 45% monounsaturate, 30% saturate, and 21% polyunsaturate. Pork fat (pure lard) is 45% monounsaturate, 39% saturate and only 11% poly. :cool: For reference, canola oil is 30% polys.

Doreen

[EMT]

Hello again
According to the the USDA nutrient database, 1 tbs of Canola oil has 1 gram sat fat, 4 g poly and 8.3 g of monos. Based on this discussion, I guess this would not be such a favorable fat to cook with b/c of the polys? Since I normally cook with canola or olive oil, this news is pretty disappointing to me. I would not use animal fat to cook with, so would anyone suggest that it is best to use cold pressed extra virgin olive oil to cook with providing you do not reach the smoke point?
Also, do you think using animal fat, with a high percent of sat fat is better than these oils?
Thanks :)

[doreen T]

hi EMT,

I used canola oil as a comparison for the polyunsaturate content of chicken and pork fat, not to suggest that it's a "bad" fat. ;)

Do I think saturated fats are good fat choices? Yes I do! It's a myth that saturated fat causes clogged arteries and makes cholesterol levels skyrocket. In fact, saturated fat is necessary for good health. You might wish to check out the following article, Facing the Facts About Saturated Fats, Heart Disease and Cancer (http://www.coconut-info.com/facing_the_facts_about_saturated-fats.htm) by Stephen Byrnes, ND, RNCP.

And there's the fact that, like butter, they do not turn into harmful transfats when you cook with them :thup:

Doreen

[EMT]

Hi Doreen
I apologize if you thought I was implying that you think canola oil was bad...I actually got that impression after reviewing the other "posts" regarding processing and cooking with canola oil.
But with regard to sat fat, I have read many research papers from science journals that suggest (or conclude) that sat fat does raise LDL compared with monos and polys. I do feel that sat fat has probably received more bad press than it deserves, and trans fat is likely more harmful in raising LDL and reducing HDL.
Who would have thought that fat was so complicated? :)

[alecmcq]

Jujubaby
What was I eating before the life change?
1. Too much
2. Curries
3. Hamburgers
4. Chocolate
5. Chips/crisps
6. Fries
7. Rich restaurant meals
8. No breakfast
9. Big evening meals
10. Lots of high GI carbos eg potatoes, rice, pasta
11. Margerine

What did I do after the doc told me to reduce my fat intake? I did what every person would do (he was threatening me with drugs), I reduced my fat intake (to a very low 10% of calories). Result? I did lose weight, and my cholesterol came down a lot.

First cholesterol test 3 months later on a very low fat diet, LDL well down, HDL same (low), and Triglycerides down. Things were going well. So I did more of the same.

However, while I did that, I also read a lot, and talked to lots of people. Some suggested I was doing myself no favours, and that fats had had a bad rap, and that carbos were to blame. There were even some who said that high cholesterol was not a problem, it was the Triglycerides that were the problem.

Next test 3 months later, LDL same, HDL same, Tris well up (back to where they were before). Warning bells. I knew why. Too much sugar, high GI carbos, no balancing fat or protein. Result? Insulin spikes, and increased Tris. And I had learned that these were the real nasties that cause CHD.

I did not want to drop down dead (I am having too much fun, and a daughter is on the way!), so I started on The Zone, and it helped me break through a weight loss plateau. It also made me feel better than I have for 20 years! Next test, LDL down again, Tris more than halved, HDL up, everyone's happy!

Problem is, I do find it tough to do a "compromise " WOE. What I mean is I am very good at being ruthless with myself. I can go for months on an absolute WOE without putting a single thing in my mouth that I know (believe)is wrong/bad. However, when I allow a few wrong/bad things in (to make life a bit more fun and interesting) things almost always get out of hand. I simply do not have enough self control to do just one choc bar a week. If I have one, I will have 6 that week. Not a good idea! Anybody got any good advice for me on this?

mtnbkmark
Brand names of cold pressed oils? Almost by definition, a well-known brand name is not a good idea! What you want is a local manufacturer supplying the local health stores. My advice is go to the local health store and ask for some cold pressed oils, and let them show you what they've got. If it comes in a dark bottle from the fridge and you think it is expensive, you've hit gold. Nobody is going to go to that much trouble to fool a consumer. Buy it and love it. Just don't take it over the smoking point.

EMT
Canola Oil in a clear bottle from the supermarket is bad news. I STRONGLY recommend avoiding it like the plague! It has definitely been raised above the smoking point in its processing for long periods of time and therefore contains high amounts of trans fats. If you care about your cholesterol level, avoid supermarket canola oil.

However, I have got cold pressed canola oil in a dark bottle from a health food store once or twice and it has a very interesting flavour!! Go try!

Doreen T
I know you know a lot about this, so some Qs:
1. Why has sat fat got such a bad rap? My own view is that there is no smoke without fire, and there must be some link between sat fat and LDL increase, at least for some people. Are you convinced sat fat is OK?
2. Do you believe that high LDL, in itself, causes CHD? I am now on a path that says it does not, and the only thing that matters is Triglycerides. I am very interested in your views on this.
3. Some of my research has suggested that we are all looking at this too simply, and that LDL total is the wrong measure, and that LDL is made up of a variety of good and bad lipids itself, and we need to break the LDL measure down to understand what is going on. Do you have any information on anything like that?
4. Is it just the poly that turns into trans fats, or all types of fats if raised to a high enough temperature? I had thought it was all fats, but I would be pleased to be wrong!! :-)

Thanks to all on this Site for all the comments! It is really motivating to read and hear from people who are on similar paths as me. I had thought for a long time I was on my own.

As I said in a recent post, be careful out there. Just listening to what the Authorities say is very bad for your health. They have been consistently wrong for many decades and remain about 20 years behind current research. Long may people like us propagate the latest thinking on issues that affect our own health.

[jujubaby]

The reason I asked what you had been eating is because, when I incorporate an idea into my life style, I stay with it even when It seems I'm not on program. ie; stone ground whole wheat or grain bread, I can't return to white fluffy bread.

Right now I have been reading Dr, Schwarzbein principle, and I have started to reduce my bread to half slices and half an apple, half a bannana etc. I think my biggest problem is the fatc that I have been diagnosed as having Fibromyalgia and as such can be racked with pain all over, plus had severe gout which went to ankles, fingers knees wrists, etc. forcing me to use crutches at times.

When I had severe tendenitis in the shoulder, the therapyst gave me exercises and told me the water exercises would be WONDERFUL FOR ME. Yeah right, more than 4 weeks ago, I went into the spa and with lovely warm jet water exercised as directed and did a little kicking and floating etc. felt okay in the water. When I got out and since, my lower back was so knotted that I was on crutches to get from the bed to the bathroom, living room. etc. So now getting back therapy and while I'm seeing some releif, the minute I try to vacuum or dust it becomes misserable once again.

I hate seeing my refection in a store window and say who is that woman?Yet I know, a decent program other than starvation will not take any weight off me. But if I can only recover some better flexability and mobility perhaps then?

I have been on other message boards and find the low carb forums and this one in particular very stimulating and educational, rather than just asking each other for recipes of legal sweets, sweets, sweets.

The issues of proper fats can become very technical, but when I learned that I needed cold pressed olive oil, it was not diffficult for me as an Italian decendant to switch to the very best premium first pressed virgin olive oil. I use Carapelli premium extra virgin first pressed olive oil in a dark bottle pt. and whipped cream butter, sometimes combining the two for a great taste for frattata's. { scrambled eggs w/ extra whites w/ sauteed veggies, ie:zucchini; asparagus; onions; peppers etc. feta cheese}
Sometimes dipping baby carrots into humus w green olives becomes my lunch.

Thanks to all for the info/education/research. saves me sitting at the computer with nervous leg syndrome.

phyllis

[alecmcq]

Jujubaby

Sorry to hear of your problems. Mine seem tiny in comparison.

My best advice to you is this:
1. Find a WOE (Way Of Eating) that does not cause you pain. This may take some time, but that has got to be first base. I think you are on the right track in reducing carbos, but you might try different things to see what works for you. I found I had a brewers yeast allergy just by experimentation! (no joke!)

2. Once you've found an eating pattern that's OK for you, start some very mederate exercise. I mean gentle walks for 10-15 mins every day to start, and then build that up slowly. Unless you are a gym rat, I suggest you just walk round the block a few times. This is really important. I believe it is VERY difficult for anyone to lose weight and keep it off if you do not exercise and start building muscle. Muscle is the best (only?) fat burning mechanism we have. More muscle means more fat loss. If anyone diets without exercising, they are slowly killing their metabolism. The trick is to build your metabolism through exercise, burn calories through exercise, and then restrict calories only slightly.

3. Try not to eat much more even though you are exercising a bit. The way things work for me is I decide what my WOE is going to be for 3 months, and I absolutely rigidly stick to it. No bending, no wavering, it is a matter of principle and pride. I am in control. It can be tough for the first week, but then it is just what I do, and it becomes routine.

4. You mentioned mobility and flexibility. I think I covered mobility in point 2, but flexibility is also really important. I have discovered the simple art of stretching, and boy, do I feel good when I am stretching every day. Life simply becomes soooo much easier! Find a good book about stretching or go ask a physio, but I promise you won't regret this. Flexible muscles work much better. Muscles that work better burn more fat.

I wish you very well in your journey. I know the first steps are always hard, I have discovered this myself, but you know that you have to do it. Let us know how you get on.
Cheers
Alec

[jujubaby]

I really do appreciate the last post, and I will take what you suggest to heart. The therapy that I have been having for the past two weeks seems to have helped me tremendously.
So I need to remember to do exercises even in the water, slowly.

By the way, I recnetly was browsing around and found a discussion between a Dr and journalist, discussing all the current diets. Guess what< Atkins was recommeded as the poorest and least healthy diet, Sugar Busters was next as least desireable and slim fast drink was approved one under the Weight watchers program {as number 1} The zone, Dr, Schwarzbein an anything connected to low carbs was poh poohed.

Then tried to suggest that people didn't keep the weight off if they followed any of the low carbers etc.

In addition, I have been reading that there is some form of hormones that cause women to lose hair and gain weight and I'm wondering how to be tested for that male or androgeness hormone that may cause these changes in older women.

So much to learn!!


.

[DebPenny]

Phyllis, I don't quite agree with Alec.

For one thing, he talks about following a program for 3 months only. I think you need to make it a way of life. You may need to tweak your style as you go along, because what works for one person, won't work exactly the same for another.

Also, when I started my low-carb way of life after years of low-fat dieting, I didn't have to exercise to build up new muscle. Because I was finally feeding my body what it needed to build muscles, it started building or strengthening what I already had just from my day-to-day activity.

I do believe you need to exercise. But before I started low-carbing, I was in such bad shape that I could not exercise. I couldn't walk more than 10 feet without hurting all over as if I had just climbed a mountain. But as my body started to heal from the foods I was eating, I started to have the energy, stamina, and strength to exercise. I am now walking briskly at least 30 minutes every day. I haven't started any other exercises yet. Although, a week ago, I went on a very long hike -- I was feeling very ambitious.

And the last part I don't agree with is that Alec seems to advocate restricting your calories. I do not restrict my calories and I still lose weight. I eat when I am hungry and I don't eat more than I want, I don't gorge, but I don't count calories. One of the things I have got from reading The Schwarzbein Principle and posts on this forum is that your body will tell you how much to eat. It took some time to get used to, but I now am able to tell when I am full and don't, usually, overeat. That's what is key. Not counting calories and making sure you are at a deficit. In fact, it is posted on this site in many places that you should eat at least 10 to 12 times your body weight in calories (that is if you are going to count calories).

So that's my point of view. Alec, I hope you are not offended by my disagreement. Phyllis, good luck and I hope you feel better soon.

;-Deb
:daizy:

[jujubaby]

As you can see by the time I'm posting {1:46am} I have a difficult time sleeping with all of my other problems.
But I do enjoy everyone's point of view and I think I do have to tweak the eating so that I become stronger also.
The back therapy I have been getting has done wonders for me, two more visits and that should do the trick. The machine the attach to my lower back is a kind of zippy, stingie kind of electrodes.
I do have to resist following their instructions, since they wanted me to bend at the knees to pick up my little jujugrl. First time I did that the left knee started to freeze up. I found a very nice orthopedic Dr. who said come here and look at your exrays, your right knee is excellent and the left not so good but not bad either. So baby your knees, take care especially the left one.
So then the therapyst said then don't pick up the baby at all! Can you imagine that? Seeing little jujugrl with her tiny arms outstreched for me to pick her up and I'm going to say no?
I keep thinking, that picking her up is like weight lifting for muscle strength.
thanks again

[alecmcq]

DebPenny
Appreciate your thoughts on my contribution. Point by point:

1. Following a program for 3 months only. I totally agree that is has to be for life and not just for 3 months. My phraseology wasn't good enough! What I meant was that I stick ABSOLUTELY rigidly with EVERY rule for 3 months, not that I would then go back to old habits after 3 months. What I found was that providing absolutely NO opportunity for "Oh just a bit of this or a bit of that won't harm me" was very helpful. However, I would only do this no compromise position for 3 months, otherwise life becomes a tad tedious!

2. Exercise to build up muscle. Again, I totally agree with your points. Start with exercise that is OK for you to do WITHOUT pain. This may mean walking 10 yards twice a day for some people, and for others starting with a 15 min walk once a day. But the main point is that you MOVE in order to start building muscle. You can't build muscle without moving. This may be from your day to day activities, or pushing ahead with a specific activity eg walk (or even jog, if you feel up to it!)

3. Restricting calories. Hmmm, I think we agree, but I'm not sure. I think what you are saying is that you are restricting your calories, but you are doing it naturally by listening carefully to your body ie stop eating when you are not hungry. To me, that is restriciting calories if before you were continuing to eat beyond not feeling hungry. It's just that you are not counting (I didn't mention counting).

However, I have 2 problems with this "only eat when you're hungry" approach:
1. Some people find that listening to their body like that is VERY hard. Indeed, hunger signals only go away about 20 minutes after real hunger has ceased. So if you stop eating and wait a bit to see if you still feel hungry and then act accordingly, this plan is OK, but I can't do it.
2. LOTS of people don't feel hungry in the morning, but it is an established principle that to boost your metabolism, having breakfast is VERY important. So even if you don't feel hungry in the morning, you should still have a light breakfast.


Jujubaby
Re your knees. I am not sure whether to talk though this as without knowing you and your knees and your health what I say may be totally bad for you. However, please treat what I say as an IDEA that works for lots of people and again is an established principle, but MAY NOT be the right thing for you. Backs are very hard to diagnose and fix (I have been to doctors, physios, chiropracters, surgeons, natural healers, you name it, I've done it!)

The principle I am referring to is to bend at the HIPS and not at the knees. Now note that I am suggesting that you bend at the HIPS and NOT at the waist. What is the difference? If you bend at the waist, your lower back will bend, and this is bad. If you bend at the hips, your lower back should be straight, and you should feel a stretch in the back of your legs. If you don't feel that stretch, it is likely you are bending at the waist, and you're doing it wrong.

The practical way to do this is to stand up straight, consciously engage and lengthen all of the muscles around your spine and then ensuring the whole of your back stays straight, bend forward, rotating at the hips.

This is hard to describe in words, but once you get it, it will feel obvious. The hips generally have strong muscles supporting them (backside, and back leg muscles) that are all working to support you. If you bend at the knees, the knee muscles are often not that strong, and if you bend at the waist, all you have is your lower back muscles (which, if you are anything like me, are non-exisitent!!)

PLEASE treat this advice with caution, as it may not be right for you. However, try it gently, and see how you go.

Hope things go well.
Alec

[jujubaby]

Hi and thanks again for the info. I agree with you about trying to bend at the hips instead of the waist{ using lower back} and I have done just that with a bit of success since no pain.

I still pick up the Jujugrl, {12 month old granddaughter} and hold her close to my body. Somehow that feels a little okay.
The knee pain is gone and I have found that If I can't avoid stairs, I have to step down with the bad knee straight. It can hold my body weight so long aas I do not bend the knee.
Yesterday I was cleaning the shower stall and as I went to move down the glass door, I tried beding my knees. It was brutal!
So I bent at the hips and could tolerate that much better. Also I went into the spa, even though it is hot in Texas, and the warm water and jets felt good. I didn't do too many kicking exercises because that's what hurt me the last time.

This past week I saw on TV a woman who lost 200 pounds and she claims she did it with veggies and fruit. I'm desparate enough to do something like that but isn't fruit too many carbs?

Well I ordered some tapes that are supposed to use hypno theapy to get you to eat so as to lose weight. Perhaps I will make some headways this way.

thanks everyone, It so comforting to have a response and some suggestions offered to help. I need to lose at least 100 pounds but my first goal is to get under the 200 mark.

By the way, have you all heard the news about the airline industry charging for two seats if you are big and make someone else uncomfortable. The truth is the airline seats have always been to small for normal people.