TSH of 9!

[Merpig]

Well I went to the doctor today for my thyroid recheck. But it turned out the reason she wanted to recheck was that my blood test from two weeks ago when I went for a physical showed a TSH value of 9!!! Eeek, right off the charts. How weird, too. I mean my thyroid has always been sort of borderline but tending to just full into the right side of normal range. So it's really weird to see it suddenly so *totally* off the charts now. I wonder what on earth can have caused it? Could it possibly be related to VLC? Overall I feel excellent on VLC and have lost 18 pounds in a month since going VLC, but I know there is some argument that VLC can suppress thyroid function. Need to investigate further.

In the meantime I had a bunch of blood drawn and will be talking to my doctor about it again on Monday.

[Nancy LC]

Well, middle age is the time most people get thyroid issues. It is an autoimmune disease (unless it's caused by lack of iodine). Personally I feel there's something environmental causing all the thyroid disease (Hasimoto's and Graves). Whether it's a lack of something like D3, or something like that jet fuel additive that's in our water. I also know a lot of people go into remission when they eliminate gluten completely. And gluten intolerance is linked to lots of other autoimmune illnesses.

So who knows what really causes it? It's becoming very common though, especially in middle-aged women.

[Merpig]

So who knows what really causes it? It's becoming very common though, especially in middle-aged women.
True it was not until middle age that *both* my parents got diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Lots of stuff seems to manifest itself in middle age.

[Seejay]

Merpig did you read Lisa's thread on reverse T3?

[Merpig]

Merpig did you read Lisa's thread on reverse T3?
I've read it. It was not a test I could get my doctor to agree to today. In fact I saw the lab sheet where you mark off the required tests, and reverse T3 was not even an option on the list. But since my TSH is so out of whack right now I think I will try to address that first and see what happens next. I've lost the link to Lisa's post, but a lot of the things I dredged up about reverse T3 seemed to be related to what to do if you feel like you have hypothyroid symptoms yet your TSH is normal - which mine clearly is not!

[Seejay]

Interesting. Thank you for letting us in on your investigations. I would not have expected that either.

Or, in the never-never land about what we learn about nutrition versus conventional wisdom, maybe 9 is good. Just kidding, I would look into it too.

[Nancy LC]

RT3 is what they measure for sub-clinical hypothyroid, I think. In other words, the TSH is fine but RT3 is high.

[awriter]

Well I went to the doctor today for my thyroid recheck. But it turned out the reason she wanted to recheck was that my blood test from two weeks ago when I went for a physical showed a TSH value of 9!!! Eeek, right off the charts. In the meantime I had a bunch of blood drawn and will be talking to my doctor about it again on Monday.
Deb, this is nothing to play around with. If your doctor won't order a RT3 (and I'm assuming your doctor is an Endo), you MUST get an online test and get that number. If he's not an Endo, get to one immediately. He or she WILL order that test and more, and you need much more before any treatment can start. Here's why:

With a TSH of 9 your doctor will want put you on Synthroid (generic or brandname; doesn't matter) -- which is pure yet synthetic T4. If you have no rT3 problem (and yes, you CAN have that even with, or sometimes because of what the high TSH is telling you) -- the T4 may work for you. Or not.

What's far better for MOST hypo sufferers though (assuming NO rT3 problem) is a dessicated thyroid med like Nature-Throid, which has all four of the thyroid hormones: T1, T2, T3, T4 -- and in the proper mix. I believe the T4/T3 is something like 3 to 1. Do NOT let your doctor give you the "low fat diets are best for you" equivalent for thyroid and tell you that "Armour and Nature-Throid doses aren't standardized" -- because they are. Read any thyroid forum on the net and you'll see the same messages from hundreds of thousands of people that you read on these forums: conventional medical wisdom in this area is 40 years behind the facts. Actually, according to the Endo who gave an online interview about this last week -- he said the practice and standards of treating thyroid in this country has not changed for forty years. And that's a quote.

But -- if you are rT3, you can't take T4 (it will make you much, much worse, and much, much fatter) OR Nature-Throid. You will need pure T3 (Cytomel) for about 12-16 weeks first, to completely drain the reservoir of rT3 without any T4 getting in the way. Synthroid will ensure that your rT3 gets worse. Once the reservoir is gone you can go onto Nature-Throid for several months after that, which will help the conversion of T4 into T3 -- because the cell receptors will no longer be blocked by the rT3.

And guess what? You can't even start Cytomel until you've had the results of a Ferritin test (NOT the same as an 'iron level') and a Cortisol saliva test. Why? Because if in addition to everything else your ferritin level is below 70 and/or your cortisol is too high or too low -- you've got stressed adrenals. From your struggles with weight that you've shared with us here, I'm guessing you do. And those need to be addressed and cleared up before your body can/will even tolerate thyroid medication.

Like I said, this is very, very serious. You need an Endo who is living in the modern world. You need a battery of tests to see exactly what is going on with your entire metabolic system. The TSH is just the canary in the coal mine. It's signaling like mad that something is very wrong, and not just with your thyroid perhaps. If you don't discover and deal now with everything, and in the proper order, you may well burn out your adrenals and then almost no thyroid meds in the world will help you.

OTOH, if you get to a supportive Endo, and get the right tests, and get the treatment you need in the order you need, you will not only feel better than you have in decades, you will probably lose 100 pounds in the next year.

One thing you CAN and SHOULD do immediately, because regardless of which thyroid and/or adrenal problem/s you may have, they ALL require the same thing: more carbs! Getting onto zero or v. low carb went a long way to getting your thyroid to this state. Staying there now will only make things worse. Metabolisms with thyroid problems have been proven to require at least 50g of carbs a day. That's still low carb by any definition, but it should be just enough to keep you out of ketosis, which is what you want.

I truly hope you get the medical help you need, and will keep all digits crossed for you.

Lisa

[Nancy LC]

T4 works great for a lot of folks. I did not do well with porcine thyroid meds there was way too much T3 in them for me. I felt good initially but later I started feeling both very tired and too wired. A nasty feeling.

My opinion is try the standard T4 treatment and try to get your TSH to optimal levels (below 2 at the very least). Live with that awhile and see how you are doing. It takes a long time for blood to stabilize with T4, like 4-6 weeks, so it might take a quite a few months to figure out the right dose.

Anyway, if you don't like how you feel that'd be a good time to explore taking T3 too.

[awriter]

T4 works great for a lot of folks.
Sure. "Zero Carbs" works for a lot of folks too. And it gives other folks serious metabolic problems, long term. Almost anything works 'for a lot of folks' -- but since everyone is an individual, when it comes to medical issues that's just not good enough IMO. Like T4 for 'folks' who have a real, measurable on blood tests, rT3 problem.

I've read all the medical literature on this, and they all agree: T4 given to a rT3 patient will make things better for a very short time (months), then worse. Forever worse. Patients then need to be withdrawn from T4, wait ten days and then go on T3 therapy for 12-16 weeks until the rT3 reservoir is depleted.

I did not do well with porcine thyroid meds
Cytomel contains ZERO porcine thyroid. It is synthetic T3 only, just as Synthroid is synthetic T4.

there was way too much T3 in them for me. I felt good initially but later I started feeling both very tired and too wired.
There's very little T3 in Nature-Throid, which is why it won't solve rT3 problems.

My opinion is try the standard T4 treatment and try to get your TSH to optimal levels (below 2 at the very least).
If the tests reveal a rT3 problem, T4 will NOT get TSH to 'optimal levels' since there's no biological way for it to do so. Those cell receptors are BLOCKED. T4 will in fact make the problem worse.

Seems to me the most prudent thing -- before giving someone specific therapeutic advice -- is to FIRST suggest that they get whatever tests are required to determine just what their problem is. So, you know, they don't end up taking medication that might cause their adrenals to crash, or even permanently damage the thyroid, which is exactly what taking the wrong thyroid meds can do.

Lisa

[Merpig]

It's funny looking at lists of hypothyroid symptoms:

- severe fatigue,loss of energy - No, I seem to have fairly average energy, and work-full time and go out and do things in the evenings after work
- weight gain, difficulty losing weight - well yes, absolutely though I have been losing like gangbusters lately
- depression and depressed mood - no. As long as I keep my carbs low I don't ever have the least depression.
- joint and muscle pain, headaches - my arthritic knee does ache and so does the shoulderblade I injured stripping wallpaper, but that's about it. Never have headaches.
- dry skin, brittle nails - No, nails are strong and decent, and my skin is pretty nice also
- brittle hair, itchy scalp, hair loss - not in the least. My hair is extremely thick and glossy. Hair stylists always compliment me on my lovely hair, and no itchiness at all
- irregular periods, PMS symptoms - menopausal now, though I DID have irregular periods for 40 years!
- breast milk formation - not sure what this means???? I had plenty of breast milk when my son was a baby, but none otherwise.
- calcium metabolism difficulties - ????? no idea
- difficulty tolerating cold and lower body temperature - my body temp is a bit lower that average, but tolerating cold is never an issue. I'm usually HOT, the sort of person who has to have a fan on all the time, sleeps with my window open in the wintertime, and has to kick my feet outside the bed covers.
- constipation - never had constipation issues
- sleeping more than average - if anything I sleep much less than average, probably about 6 hours a night
- diminished sex drive - sex? :lol:
- puffiness in face and extremities - never
- hoarseness - never
- bruising/clotting problems - not that I'm aware of
- elevated levels of LDL (the “bad” cholesterol) and heightened - risk of heart disease - my LDL was 165 when recently tested. Not sure how "elevated" that would be considered by hypothyroid standards
- allergies that suddenly appear or get worse - nope
- persistent cold sores, boils, or breakouts - never
- tingling sensation in wrists and hands that mimics carpal tunnel syndrome - never
- memory loss, fuzzy thinking, difficulty following conversation or train of thought - never
- slowness or slurring of speech - never

Hmmm, wonder what other symptoms there are? Really except for weight issues there are no smoking guns.

Interestingly *both* my parents were hypothyroid. Both took synthroid and it resolved all their symptoms. They were on it for years. In fact my dad, age 81, still takes synthroid daily. You can even tell if he misses it for a couple days - he *does* get forgetful and slurred speech. But give him a synthroid and he is right as rain again.

[Merpig]

Getting onto zero or v. low carb went a long way to getting your thyroid to this state. Staying there now will only make things worse.
Hmm, are our metabolisms so delicate that 4 weeks of going VLC can destroy a thyroid? I sometimes wonder that anyone manages to stay alive for more than a week or two! And yet you are always reading about people like that guy who mostly lives on candy, or the girl who lives only on white bread and fruit.

I mean the only obvious *symptoms* of going VLC have been losing 18 pounds in 4 weeks after having been stalled for several months. :D

[Nancy LC]

Not everyone gets every thyroid symptom and sometimes they're paradoxical, like I gained weight with hyperthyroid. In fact, I didn't have most of those either. I got cold, sleepy, no energy, low appetite, weight gain.

On the other hand, a pituitary problem could cause TSH to be elevated too. It is the pituitary gland that secretes TSH and I've heard hard bumps to the head and make it screwy, or tumors. :(

[awriter]

It's funny looking at lists of hypothyroid symptoms:
Deb,

First, the list is incomplete. Here are the ones that matter for you:

-- Low temps
-- Inability to lose weight (and yes, that includes the 18 pounds you've lost recently). With a TSH of 9 the weight loss won't turn out to be a hundred pounds; you just haven't ground to a halt yet.
-- Family history
-- Irregular periods when you did have them.
-- And perhaps the cholesterol. The list you gave has it wrong -- it's not the LDL that gets high, it's the TC. Is yours over 200?

Second, out of that list, I only had 2 symptoms, but I sure am hypothyroid and my rT3 problem is quite large. You have 4 or maybe 5 symptoms, depending on your TC count. You do NOT need to have all the symptoms to be hypo. You're walking proof of that, because:

Third: your TSH levels SAYS you're not only Hypo, you're severely Hypo.

are our metabolisms so delicate that 4 weeks of going VLC can destroy a thyroid?
It may not just be your thyroid. With a TSH that high, you may well have adrenals under enormous stress. And for YOU, you may have been too LC for some time. When you were trying the Kwasniewski ratios, you were eating about 50g or 60g carbs a day. When was the last time you ate 100g of carbs a day on a daily basis and for a long time? Under 100g is considered LC, and under that amount might be V. LC (or at least too LC) for YOU.

It's good that T4 seems to alleviate your dad's symptoms. But it also indicates that he too may well be on the wrong meds, and would have done better on different meds (has he ever tried anything else?) since he needs to keep taking them!

If it is your adrenals (and only a test will tell) and/or ferritin levels, and/or rT3 -- (lots of 'ifs' there, I know) you should be able to take a course of T3 treatment for a few months that will turn everything around so that you don't need to take any more of anything. At all.

You are definitely hypothyroid, symptoms or not and if left untested and untreated, things are going to get worse, not better. Please get to an Endo ASAP.

Lisa

[Nancy LC]

Oh, here's another one... missing the outer 1/3 of your eyebrows.

[awriter]

This is the best site I've found that lists all Hypo symptoms but more importantly, puts them within a range that's easy to see and understand.

http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C20313.html

Lisa

[Merpig]

This is the best site I've found that lists all Hypo symptoms but more importantly, puts them within a range that's easy to see and understand.
http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C20313.html
Lisa
Interesting list. There is also an interesting quiz at http://thyroid.about.com/library/hypoquiz that goes through a lot of symptoms above plus some others. I took the quiz and the answer it gave me was:

You answered 6 items out of 41 in a way that indicates hypothyroidism risks and symptoms.

Your score is 15%. You have a few risks and symptoms for hypothyroidism, but not many. You should, however, have your thyroid checked out.

[Valtor]

Interesting list. There is also an interesting quiz at http://thyroid.about.com/library/hypoquiz that goes through a lot of symptoms above plus some others. I took the quiz and the answer it gave me was:
My guess is that your body has found a way to palliate around most of the hypo symptoms.

Patrick

[awriter]

Your score is 15%. You have a few risks and symptoms for hypothyroidism, but not many. You should, however, have your thyroid checked out.
And when you did check it out the answer came back loud and clear: Even with 'few symptoms' you turned out to be very hypo anyway. This is why using online 'lists' instead of getting the actual blood tests you need is extremely unreliable and maybe even dangerous. Imagine if you hadn't had the blood tests -- you would have read that list and said 'That's not me' -- when in fact, it is. Imagine taking medicine to 'fix' the problem without taking all of the tests you'll now need to find out exactly WHY and HOW your thyroid is dysfunctional.

I agree with Patrick that our bodies have a way of coping with illness in ways that can fool us into thinking everything is okay. Given the amazing efforts you've undertaken to lose weight, which should have been 100% successful long, long ago -- your inability to do so was the real clue you had (and those of us like you should have) that despite the lack of other symptoms, something was seriously wrong. I'm glad you now have the indisputable truth that it's your thyroid, not any particular way of eating or not eating you may have tried.

Lisa

[Nancy LC]

Sometimes it's the pituitary gland that can screw up. Rare, but not unheard of.

TSH also doesn't necessarily correspond to the severity of the symptoms. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/326/7384/311.pdf
Primary hypothyroidism is a graded phenomenon
with a wide spectrum of severity between subclinical
hypothyroidism and overt hypothyroidism. Patients
with biochemically severe hypothyroidism may present
with only mild clinical manifestations, whereas some
patients with moderate changes in thyroid hormones
may present with severe signs of tissue hypothyroid~
ism.
1
The measurement of pituitary thyroid stimulating
hormone (TSH) is the most sensitive test for early
diagnosis of primary hypothyroidism. The magnitude
of elevation of TSH is commonly believed to
correspond to the severity of tissue hypothyroidism.
We aimed to evaluate the value of measuring serum
TSH in assessing the severity of tissue hypothyroidism
in patients with overt hypothyroidism...

...TSH is a poor measure for estimating the clinical
and metabolic severity of primary overt thyroid
failure. This is in sharp contrast to the high diagnostic
accuracy of TSH measurement for early diagnosis of
hypothyroidism.
We found no correlations between the different
parameters of target tissues and serum TSH. Our find~
ings are in accordance with a cross sectional study
showing only a modest correlation between TSH and
the percentage of positive hypothyroid symptoms
4
and
data showing discordant responses between the
pituitary and peripheral target tissues in patients
treated with l~triiodothyronine.
5
We assume that secre~
tion of TSH is driven by maximal stimulation, with no
further increase occurring with greater severity of
hypothyroidism. Therefore, the biological effects of

[Merpig]

T4 works great for a lot of folks...Anyway, if you don't like how you feel that'd be a good time to explore taking T3 too.
It does make me wonder a lot about percentages of folks. I mean it's the people who fall outside the box that get involved more online to find out the reasons why. People who *don't* feel better on T4, people who *don't* find it easy to lose weight following "approved" methods etc.

But are there any numbers on what percentages we are talking about? As for diet it seems to me that probably 98% or better can't lose weight by conventional means. :D

But how about thyroid? Clearly Synthroid seems to be the most common treatment of choice these days. Every single person I know in "real life" who has thyroid problems is on Synthroid (or generic). And all of them say it has turned their lives around! I find it hard to believe it works for no one.

But who *does* it work for? New information about the diabetes drug Byetta that I've been reading said that for those it works for it works spectacularly well - but that it only works for about a third of the people who try it. 33% success rate for a drug does not seem so high, but if it is a wonderful success for those 33% then I can see why it is worth continuing to market it, and to give it to patients.

So does T4 work for 33% who take it? 75% 98%? What percentage of the patients need alternative treatments?

I don't have answers to any of those questions. Just lots of questions.

Interesting that there are lots of medical tests you can self-order at https://sttm.mymedlab.com for thyroid and all sorts of other things. Just print out the DLO (Digital Lab Order) and take it with you to the nearest LabCorp.

You can do this in 47 states of the union, every single state *except* New York, Rhode Island and *New Jersey* (my home state, :( ).

I called and spoke to MyMedLab about it. They said that NJ residents can still sign up for and pay for the tests - they just have to go to a LabCorp in either Delaware, Connecticut or Pennsylvania to have the blood drawn. So I can still do it. It just means a 2+ hour round-trip drive instead of a 10-minute round-trip (the round trip to my closest Labcorp). <sigh> I suppose the laws are still trying to protect us from ourselves and instead screwing us.

[Seejay]

The other question I have with Synthroid is, why is it considered a chronic condition so that you have to take the drug forever?

There are doctors out there who advise healing the underlying condition and so you don't have to take chronic medicine. Byron Richards is a CCN for example who sells supplements to heal, not just to treat.

But the standard of care says that low thyroid is "chronic" = guaranteed forever income stream for medical treatment.

[Nancy LC]

Well, Hashimoto's and Graves disease are autoimmune disease and I know eventually in Hashi's, unless it goes into remission, it can eventually cause the thyroid gland to stop working altogether. It's autoimmune, so presumably the antibodies are attacking the thyroid gland.

I guess when they figure out how to make autoimmune diseases stop attacking the body (which is what they do) then that'll be the cure.

Hypothyroid caused by iodine deficiency is easy to cure obviously.

As far as the T3/T4 debate goes. Here's what I think. Based on my own experience. I wasn't on an optimal doses of synthroid so I felt poopy. However, I fell within the normal range. So I looked for answers and stumble on T3 and how it helped some people. I tried it. I felt really good for a couple of weeks, then I started feeling awful. But I stuck it out for a few months. I quietly fell off the band wagon and went back to T4. However, I was very enthusiastic about it when I first encountered it.

I believe there are people too that do need some T3 and feel better with it and they're very, very enthusiastic about it. Also, the newly converted tend to be pretty excited. I know I was.

I would actually like to try T3 again, but in a much, much smaller dose than you can get in natural thyroid. The issue is though that it doesn't come time released so it wears off pretty quickly.

There are doctors out there who advise healing the underlying condition and so you don't have to take chronic medicine. Byron Richards is a CCN for example who sells supplements to heal, not just to treat.Or so they claim...

[Seejay]

I guess when they figure out how to make autoimmune diseases stop attacking the body (which is what they do) then that'll be the cure. I know several groups of "let food be your medicine" advocates who have seen auto-immune diseases regress with diet, including thyroid. One is the reports of Kwasniewski - if the disease isn't gone too far it can regress. Another is the community at Yahoo "soilandhealth". Another is the community at Yahoo "native-nutrition."

Of course these communities' experience aren't confirmed by science yet but the anecdotes are there.

rant on!!!
And to those who say anecdotes aren't science, I say, yes they are. They are the very beginnings - anecdotes are almost always what starts the scientific investigation... "hmm that is interesting, why is that"?
rant off.

[awriter]

I wasn't on an optimal doses of synthroid so I felt poopy. However, I fell within the normal range.
Your first and second clue you should not be taking T4.

So I looked for answers and stumble on T3 and how it helped some people. I tried it. I felt really good for a couple of weeks, then I started feeling awful. But I stuck it out for a few months.
You should not have taken it that way. It's not meant to be taken that way -- 'sticking it out for months'. There are specific protocols for T3 treatment, and that's not one of them.

I would actually like to try T3 again, but in a much, much smaller dose than you can get in natural thyroid. The issue is though that it doesn't come time released so...
It does. It's called SRT3 and is compounded by a compounding pharmacy to your doctor's specification for YOUR thyroid problem, which can only be determined by blood tests. Trial and error rarely works, as you've already seen firsthand.

Lisa

[Nancy LC]

I know several groups of "let food be your medicine" advocates who have seen auto-immune diseases regress with diet, including thyroid. One is the reports of Kwasniewski - if the disease isn't gone too far it can regress. Another is the community at Yahoo "soilandhealth". Another is the community at Yahoo "native-nutrition."
I agree that diet is very helpful with autoimmune disease. I have personal experience with that. In fact, going gluten free seems to help a lot of people with thyroid illness.

But I think anyone who is claiming they can cure Hashimoto's with supplements is just looking to turn a quick buck. Of course because there is a rather highish remission rate with thyroid disease all they need to do is find a couple of people who go into remission to write up some testimonials. They won't even know they've been duped.

[awriter]

Clearly Synthroid seems to be the most common treatment of choice these days. Every single person I know in "real life" who has thyroid problems is on Synthroid (or generic). And all of them say it has turned their lives around! I find it hard to believe it works for no one. So does T4 work for 33% who take it? 75% 98%?
Deb, your question made me laugh. When I explain why, you're going to laugh too. It's the equivalent of someone who's been told they are diabetic (without being told if they have Type 1 or Type 2) -- saying "Well, why can't I just inject insulin? It works for every Type 1 diabetic I know!"

You've leapt to a very logical (but incorrect) conclusion: that "the thyroid" is a monolithic object rather than an entire metabolic system, and that "treating it" means treating the organ (the gland) rather than the hormones that support the gland.

The diabetes analogy is a good one, because it will hopefully help me to write about this in a way that will clarify the issue for you in a concrete way.

If it turns out that you have the thyroid equivalent of Type 1 diabetes (that is, you have a goiter, which means that there's a problem with the gland itself, or you are converting food into insufficient T4 in the gland) -- then you will indeed be put on Synthroid, and you will have to take it for life. As with Type 1 diabetes, there is currently no cure for a non-working Thyroid GLAND. And T4 is to a large extent, but not exclusively, made in the gland itself.

However, if you have the Type 2 diabetes thyroid equivalent -- it means you have a problem with the T1 or T2 or (in 99.9% of the cases) T3 hormones that support the gland.

But guess what? T1, T2 and T3 -- unlike T4 -- are not made in the gland!

T4 is NOT the physiologically active hormone. Instead it needs to be converted by an enzyme called 5'-deiodinase (the ' after the five means "prime") in order to become the active hormone T3 (liothyronine). At least 80% of the body's daily production of T3 is produced not in the thyroid gland, but in the tissues of your body (liver, kidney, etc.).

T3 IS the physiologically active thyroid hormone and is 4 times more potent, and 3 times shorter acting than T4. T3 is what goes to all the cells in the body and tells them how fast to operate, which determines the body temperature.

5' deiodinase has two jobs. It converts T4 to T3, and it converts RT3 to T2.

5 deiodinase (note, no "prime") is the enzyme that converts T4 to RT3.

The specific route by which this conversion happens:

5' deiodinase (5 "prime" deiodinase) plucks the iodine atom off the 5' position of T4 to make T3. It also converts RT3 to T2. T3 is 4 times more potent than T4 and is the primary agonist (stimulator) at the cell level.

But if the 5' deiodinase gets blocked at the cell receptor level, T4 gets converted by 5 (no prime) deiodinase into rT3 instead of T3.

It's exactly like becoming insulin resistant. Instead of glucose being taken up by insulin to the cells for food, the cells have blocked their insulin receptors and the insulin must then carry the glucose to the liver to be converted to adipose fat for storage.

The pancreas just thinks it's not producing enough insulin and makes even more, creating more blocked cell receptors. Would you tell someone in this condition to take insulin to fix the problem because after all, insulin works great for lots of diabetic folks? No, of course not. You would tell this person to begin making the dietary changes needed to slow down insulin production and increase insulin sensitivity.

If they don't listen, what will happen? Even the fat cells will become insulin resistant and then the pancreas will burn out, turning them from a Type 2 to a Type 1 diabetic. Then they'll be able to use insulin all right!

Well, having blocked T3 cell receptors because your T4 is converting not into T3 but into rT3 (not glucose into food, but into adipose fat storage) and pouring MORE T4 into your system will do the same thing: burn out your entire thyroid system. Then sure, you'll be on T4 forever, and T3 too.

"Under stress (and this can take many forms, including calorie and/or carbohydrate restriction over an extended period of time) the body converts T4 less to T3 and more to RT3 to conserve energy. With less T3, the cells of the body slow down. This makes it clear that there is a peripheral auto-regulatory mechanism as well as the glandular one that regulates T4 production. And there is a glandular auto-regulatory mechanism (negative feedback inhibition), that regulates the thyroid gland's T4 production. The amount of T4 that is converted peripherally to the active T3 can drop by 50%. And at the same time, the amount of T4 converted to the inactive RT3 can increase by 50%."

This understanding of the glandular problem (goiter, not enough T4 production in the gland) vs. the peripheral T4 to rT3 problem also answers SeeJay's question about why people stay on Synthroid forever, whereas that is not the case (or should not be the case) for Cytomel.

In the case of a Type 1 diabetes thyroid equivalent, the nature of the glandular problem is likely chronic and incurable (now, anyway), so synthetic T4 must, like insulin, be taken daily and forever.

In the case of a Type 2 diabetes thyroid equivalent, the problem lies in the peripheral tissue and organs, and a short course of the right amount of T3, given in the correct protocol, can drain the rT3 reservoir, unblock the T3 cell receptors and 'fix' the problem -- just as a change from a sugar and fructose-laden high carb diet to a sugar and fructose-free low carb, high fat diet can restore insulin sensitivity to cells. Unless one reverts back to old behavior and/or eating patterns, the fix should be permanent.

This also explains, btw, one noted 'marker' for an rT3 problem and what happens when you fix it: Total Cholesterol level changes.

People who eat a high fat, low carb diet should have very normal TC after one year. But because the 5' deiodinase -- in the liver, remember -- is one of the signals given to the liver that cholesterol levels are fine, and that signal is replaced by the inactive 5 (no prime) deiodinase molecule, the liver keeps churning out what it believes is missing but needed. Cholesterol. That's why mine has increased dramatically in the last two years (as my rT3 problem increased) despite extremely low risk markers for heart disease otherwise. Mine went from 200 to 381 in just 24 months. You didn't answer my question about whether yours was over 200, but I'm guessing it is.

Cytomel therapy has another 'side-effect' and you can probably guess now what it it: dramatic lowering of TC. And now you know why, and exactly how that works, and why every Medical Journal article on the subject specifically states that high TC caused by peripheral thyroid hormone problems be treated by thyroid medication (which you also now know must be T3, and not T4), and not statins. It's the only time I've ever seen statins not suggested by the statinators for curing anything. :) With my T3 therapy, I expect my TC to, in the words of the Medical Journals -- drop like a rock.

So to answer your original question that made me laugh: "Does T4 work for 33% who take it? 75% 98%?" -- T4 therapy given to patients with a thyroid glandular problem (that is, the Type 1's of the thyroid world) should be 100% effective, 100% of the time.

Otoh, giving T4 therapy to patients who have peripheral thyroid hormone problems (the Type 2's of the thyroid world) is the same as giving them cotton candy, in ever increasing doses. It might make them feel better (high on the excess glucose) for a short while, and then it will, if not stopped, cause severe damage throughout the body.

At this moment you have no idea if you are Type 1 or Type 2 and speculating about what drug or drugs you will need is futile. You need to get the tests done -- all the tests -- that will tell you which type of thyroid problem you have, and that will tell you what specific drug you need, and in what dose and protocol, to take to help it.

Lisa

[mindful2]

Outer third, heck! My ENTIRE browline is barely there, and when something does come in, I enjoy it for five minutes before it falls right out. I've had to become an expert with the brow pencil (I'm sure other people don't see it as so 'expert' though) lol Also, haven't been able to keep eyelashes for about 7 years (I'm 47 now).

[Nancy LC]

Have you ever gotten your thyroid checked, Mindful2? My eyebrows get very sparse when I'm hypothyroid.

[Merpig]

Deb, your question made me laugh. When I explain why, you're going to laugh too. It's the equivalent of someone who's been told they are diabetic (without being told if they have Type 1 or Type 2) -- saying "Well, why can't I just inject insulin? It works for every Type 1 diabetic I know!"
Well it doesn't really make me laugh without knowing what percentage of people with thyroid problems fall into which categories. Ditto with diabetes. What percentage are Type 1 and which percentage are Type 2? Again, I don't know the percentages. I'm just making up numbers. But suppose 90% are Type 1 (which I'm sure is not the case, I'm just making this up!). Then finding out you have diabetes and wondering if taking insulin is the correct course for you, as everyone you know takes it, would actually *be* correct in 9 cases out of 10. Knowing percentages helps you to "guess" how likely a certain therapy is to help you.

Ditto with the thyroid. Obviously I know that one protocol does not help all. But asking percentages is still a valid question. If I ask what percentage are helped by synthroid - it is 25% or 50% of 98% percent - is still useful, even without knowing what "type" thyroid problem you have. If 98% of thyroid patients are helped by synthroid then the odds are pretty good that you too will be helped by synthroid. Odds are much more likely that you must have the sort of thyroid problem that responds to synthroid - as *most* people do.

But if only 25% of patients are helped by synthroid then clearly there is a much larger number of people who have different thyroid issues. So I still think my question is reasonably valid without worrying about the actual sort of issues people have. I mean I'm just looking for numbers, not diagnoses. But that's a number I have not seen.
You didn't answer my question about whether yours was over 200, but I'm guessing it is.
It is though not excessively so. My standard cholesterol numbers were:
TC - 229
HDL - 52
LDL - 165
TG - 65

In fact TC is only one point away from that of my 6-foot-tall and 122-pound sister. :D (her TC is 228)

[awriter]

what percentage of people with thyroid problems fall into which categories. Then finding out you have diabetes and wondering if taking insulin is the correct course for you...
I can see how you would think that -- but if you are Type 1, you don't have a choice in therapies. You must inject insulin or die. Therefore, knowing how many diabetics are type 1 or 2 is irrelevant to YOU -- if you're type 1.

Ditto, thyroid. If you're Type 1 you also have no choice. You must take Synthroid. Same if you have your thyroid removed.

If 98% of thyroid patients are helped by synthroid then the odds are pretty good that you too will be helped by synthroid.
I'm afraid you're asking the wrong question. If you are a Type 1 diabetic, insulin MUST help in 100% of the cases -- or the patients die. If you are a Type 1 thyroid patient, Synthroid MUST help in 100% of cases, or patients die. You can't live without a functioning thyroid or hormone replacement and you have no option about which replacement to use. It's Synthroid or nothing.

Odds are much more likely that you must have the sort of thyroid problem that responds to synthroid - as *most* people do.
If you're asking how many people have Type 1 thyroid problems (which is, like Type 1 diabetes far more rare than Type 2 ) -- again, the analogy holds. There are many more people with peripheral thyroid hormone problems than there are with thyroid gland problems. I have no idea where you got the opposite idea. True glandular problems are very rare. But do type 2's get prescribed synthroid anyway? You bet. See below for why.

The problem with knowing how many people are prescribed Synthroid is it doesn't really say much about viable solutions for the Type 2's who are 90% more often given Synthroid, and who therefore remain unsatisfied and un-helped -- sometimes for years apparently -- until they get onto either dessicated thyroid or synthetic T3 or the new-ish combo of synthetic T4/T3 (which must be refrigerated, so that's out for me).

Why are so many people with Type 2 thyroid problems given a drug that can only make them worse in the long run and not ever cure them?

According to the Endo who gave the online interview, med schools haven't updated standard treatment for Thyroid in 40 years. Four freaking decades. Think about what we've learned and changed about heart disease and cancer treatment in that time! Why not thyroid? Well, he said something that shocked me. He asked: "who do you think supports and pays for med grad schools (aside from tuition, which isn't enough)?" His answer: "Big Pharma. And the Endo grad schools are all funded by Abbott Labs, who also funds 99% of all thyroid studies."

Guess who makes Synthroid?

Uh, yeah.

So the state of medicine for peripheral thyroid hormonal problems is like the current state of medicine for diabetes, in which conventional medical wisdom and the ADA keep stating that a low fat, high complex carb diet and/or lots of pharma like Avandia are best. Or that statins for high cholesterol are best.

Thanks to the internet, just about every single person on this forum knows better than that. And thanks to the internet, I know better than that about thyroid. A lot better than my own Endo and ten times more than my PCP.

The fact is, all your questions -- including how satisfied or not 90% of all Type 2 thyroid sufferers are with Synthroid (which is, NOT AT ALL) -- can be answered by doing some basic research. It's all there: studies that show what a rT3 problem is, why shoving more T4 at it makes it worse, how to fix the problem forever, etc. etc. etc. is all there.

It took me nearly six months of serious medical books and journal reading, plus additional articles, sites, etc to learn what I've learned, but that knowledge is available to anyone. And you have a bit of time before your rT3 results come back, no? Then when you learn whether you're a Type 1 (no choice; must take Synthroid), or a Type 2 (shouldn't take Synthroid under any circumstance but you'll have to decide that for yourself) -- you'll be ready to take action.

My standard cholesterol numbers were:
TC - 229
HDL - 52
LDL - 165
TG - 65
Again, these numbers from someone who eats a V. LC diet indicates peripheral thyroid hormonal disorder. Your lab tests will either confirm or reject my hypothesis. I hope for your sake I'm right. Then you can be cured in a matter of months. If I'm not right, you'll be on Synthroid the rest of your life and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Lisa

[Merpig]

If you're asking how many people have Type 1 thyroid problems (which is, like Type 1 diabetes far more rare than Type 2 ) -- again, the analogy holds. There are many more people with peripheral thyroid hormone problems than there are with thyroid gland problems. I have no idea where you got the opposite idea.
And I have no idea why you think I have the opposite idea. Clearly I'm not explaining myself very well so I guess I will just stop here then. But based on your answer I guess there really is no answer to my question - or at least no answer that can be assumed to be correct. So I won't bother asking it anymore. :D

[mindful2]

Nancy LC: I've been on 125mg of Synthroid for a couple of years, but after doing some reading on this site, I asked my doc for Armour. He prescribed, then recommended I see an endo. My appt is at the end of this month. I already feel SO MUCH better on the Armour. I'll keep you posted on what happens. I read yesterday that people with thyroid problems should eat at least 50 gm of carbs a day. I'm hoping that's not true because I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and taking my carbs down to 10-20 has made such a difference in mood swings. I read a study done in Europe that polled 14,000 psychiatrists about their first actions upon seeing a patient who presented with bipolar symptoms. First action? Change of diet! Not the meds the US docs always automatically reach for. Needless to say, I am very happy to have found this website.

[Beth1708]

I'm just making up numbers. But suppose 90% are Type 1 (which I'm sure is not the case, I'm just making this up!).

For diabetes, it's closer to 90% are type 2.

Type 2 diabetes accounts for 90 to 95 percent of the total diabetes population in the United States

http://www.diabetestypes.org/

Beth

[Valtor]

...I read yesterday that people with thyroid problems should eat at least 50 gm of carbs a day. I'm hoping that's not true because I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and taking my carbs down to 10-20 has made such a difference in mood swings...
If you eat less than 50g of carbs per day, you will need some T3 to combat the rise in rT3 that follows such a vlc diet. So using Armour instead of pure T4 was a very good move on your part, since it contains T3. :thup:

Patrick

[Merpig]

I read yesterday that people with thyroid problems should eat at least 50 gm of carbs a day. I'm hoping that's not true because I've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and taking my carbs down to 10-20 has made such a difference in mood swings.
I'm not bipolar, but I also feel so much better both physically and mentally when my carbs are lower. Here's an interesting blogpost that someone forwarded me a link to, about thyroid and a very-low-carb diet:
http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/11/4/the-carnivorous-diet-your-thyroid.html

[Valtor]

I'm not bipolar, but I also feel so much better both physically and mentally when my carbs are lower. Here's an interesting blogpost that someone forwarded me a link to, about thyroid and a very-low-carb diet:
http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/11/4/the-carnivorous-diet-your-thyroid.html
At first glance this article seems valid. BUT unfortunately it completely misses the point. It's not about lower levels of T3, it's about rT3 levels getting too high and being stuck with this afterward.

Remember this thread?
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=402898
The decline in T3 concentration is accompanied by a concomitant and reciprocal change in the concentration of total and free rT3.Reduction in carbohydrate intake rather than total calorie deprivation appears to be the determinant factor.
I think the best would be to take Cytomel at the same time as being vlc. This would prevent the rT3 problem, since the Cytomel would prevent your thyroid from making T4 that would convert to rT3. It could also bring humongous weight loss.

Humm, I might just try that at some point. :)

Patrick

[awriter]

I've been on 125mg of Synthroid for a couple of years, but after doing some reading on this site, I asked my doc for Armour. He prescribed, then recommended I see an endo. My appt is at the end of this month. I already feel SO MUCH better on the Armour.
I'm glad you're off the Synthroid, because if the Armour is helping you at all it proves you were on the wrong med for years (because otherwise the T3 in it, which is the only difference between it and Synthroid, could not have helped), which sadly is all too common.

However, a word of warning. Armour changed it's formulation several months ago, and complaints about it are now in the thousands. So many people switched to the other dessicated brands (like Nature-Throid for instance, which doesn't use the same sugar fillers than Armour does) -- that the entire pharmacy system collapsed in August all over the country. No one could get any dessicated thyroid anywhere, including Armour.

The manufacturers are just now beginning to get ready to ship product to them. RCL Labs, which makes NT (which is what I take after trying the new Armour), told me yesterday they'll be shipping the 1 grain in a week or so, and the 2 grain in December.

Take the Armour you have now, no problem -- but when you're ready for a refill (if it's in a month or two) -- you might want to get your doc to give you a prescription to NT or Westthroid (also made by RCL) instead. The dose/strength is the same.

Lisa

[awriter]

Here's an interesting blogpost that someone forwarded me a link to, about thyroid and a very-low-carb diet
Yeah. About that. He has some of his facts right, he just doesn't seem to know much about the thyroid system. So his interpretation of the facts is backwards. He writes:

"So what happens happens to our thyroid when we fast? In short, it slows down. And it especially slows down when you decrease calories in tandem (http://books.google.com/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=ketogenic+hypothyroid&source=bl&ots=dMNPd2yUFH&sig=8Q8dkgZXIUYxzAIBdLImbDsCQng&hl=en&ei=XCjlSv67MYXIsQP5qoC3Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=true)."

Yes - and no. The thyroid does indeed slow down, but you don't need to reduce calories at the same time for that to happen. And if you reduce calories too much, you don't need to reduce carbs at the same time for that to happen. Doing either one can cause the system to crash.

He continues: "So what gives? Isn't the slow down of the thyroid what we're trying to avoid?"

Uh, yes, it is. He writes:

"This is were the forum posting alarmists get it wrong. Fortunately the decline of serum T3 due to fasting is not associated with the disease state known as hypothyroidism (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274154/pdf/westjmed00207%2D0055.pdf)."

This is where he starts to go off the rails. By "the disease state known as hypothyroidism" he means a disease of the thyroid GLAND. And he's right. Fasting does nothing whatever to the gland. But he goes on:"Despite the fall in T3 levels, clinical hypothyroidism does not develop. Thyrotropin values do not rise, as might be expected in primary thyroid dysfunction: in fact basal TSH concentrations may decrease in short-term fasting or remain unchanged in prolonged (more than three weeks) fasting. In addition, TSH response to thyrotropin releasing hormone infusions may be blunted or unchanged."
Uh-huh. He's exactly right on the facts -- but exactly wrong in the interpretation. The gland (and thus, T4 production) remains fine -- no clinical glandular hypothyroidism occurs.

BUT -- in order to conserve during fasting or very low carbs, the body saves energy by slowing down metabolism. In the case of the thyroid, it leaves the gland alone, and instead does its work in the liver. How? It takes the wrong iodine molecule from the T4 sent to the liver. Because it's grabbed the wrong (5, not 5') molecule, only the metabolically inactive rT3 can be made with it, and not the metabolically active T3. It's biologically impossible to make T3 from T4 with that wrong molecule! Thus, the entire metabolism is able to slow down safely, food intake is stored as fat instead of being burned for energy, and the body gets to survive another day.

This leaves the gland entirely healthy (for now) and untouched, which makes sense for two reasons. First, if it didn't stay healthy in times of starvation you would die, and conservation of energy would be useless. Second, you need a thyroid gland in good condition for when the mastodon start running again.

This is where things often go so wrong for us. What's supposed to happen in the good times is that production goes back to making T3 from T4, and the extra rT3 simply evaporates, unused over time --- but often what should happen, doesn't. Instead, a negative feedback loop of T4 ---> rT3 is created, and it gets stuck there because the T3 cell receptors on the nuclear level remain blocked.

When this happens the TSH may continue to look good (or not), but the ratio between T3 and rT3 continues to go in the wrong direction. If left untreated -- and the only treatment must be pure T3 (Cytomel) for a few months to drain the rT3 reservoir while blocking any more T4 production (which does not happen if the doctor is dumb enough to prescribe Synthroid) -- Hypo symptoms begin to present themselves. If they continue to be ignored, or if a patient is kept on Synthroid (which continues to pour T4 into a system that can only create rT3 with it) things can and usually do go from bad to worse.

Even worse than that is when a patient continues the dietary behavior that caused the problem in the first place, and here I disagree with Patrick. I believe that taking Armour, or Cytomel or any thyroid medication while continuing to eat v. LC or low cal is the same as a diabetic who continues to eat badly while taking metaformin. Sure, the metaformin will control the glucose, but at an ultimate terrible cost.

If you develop a peripheral thyroid hormone problem (as opposed to a T4 glandular problem) -- you can no longer eat a low calorie, or LC diet (where daily carbs are less than 50g a day) -- anymore than you can continue to eat sugar, candy and cakes if you are a diabetic on medication. Your diet should change to support your thyroid hormones. Then, and only then, the good hormones can stop the negative feedback loop and restart the metabolism, and you will no longer need to take any medication at all.

My 2 cents; YMMV.

Lisa

[teaser]

The physiologic relationship between the thyroid and parathyroid glands remains poorly understood. A high incidence of coexistent thyroid disease and primary hyperparathyroidism has been well documented. Elevation of serum 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 (vitamin D) has been detected in some patients with primary hyperparathyroidism. A report of specific binding sites and uptake of vitamin D by the thyrotrophs of the anterior pituitary indicates that vitamin D may modulate production or secretion of thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH). To test this concept, we investigated the influence of elevated serum levels of vitamin D on basal and stimulated TSH. Vitamin D was administered by subcutaneously implanted sustained-release pellets at four dosages. Thyrotropin releasing hormone (TRH) stimulation tests were performed at time zero, 72 hours, 1 week, 2 weeks, and 5 weeks. Animals administered vitamin D became significantly hypercalcemic and demonstrated elevations of vitamin D, which peaked at 72 hours and remained elevated for 2 weeks after pellet implantation. TRH-stimulated TSH levels were significantly elevated at 72 hours and at 1 week and returned to normal after 5 weeks. Parathyroid hormone levels were suppressed at 72 hours and at 1 week and displayed significant elevation at 2 weeks. These results provide in vivo evidence for an interaction and a possible regulatory role of 1,25 on pituitary TSH secretion and parathyroid function.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2511635

This is from Dr Cannell's vitamin d newsletter;


Dr. Cannell: After reading as much as I could, my parents and I started taking 4000 IU of Vitamin D3 daily, starting in October. Since we live near a very cloudy, northern city (Cleveland), and since we were approaching the late fall and winter months, I felt this dosage was entirely appropriate. So far, my father and I have had absolutely no side effects. My mother, however, is a different story.
For 20 years, my mother has been taking Synthroid. For 15 years she took 75 mcg/day and over the last 5 years had been on 100 mcg/day. By sheer coincidence, less than a week after starting on the Vitamin D, it was time for her annual TSH test. When the results of the test came back, the doctor's office called and notified her that her TSH level was 13 and had "shot way up."
Accordingly, they upped her dose of Synthroid to 150 mcg/day as a result of this test. A few weeks later, she developed a rapid heartbeat (~140 bpm). Sensing that the increased dosage of Synthroid might be causing the rapid heartbeat, I checked Pub Med for any linkage between Vitamin D and TSH levels. I found the following two articles:

1.TSH secretion stimulated by thyroliberin in patients with hypothyroidism receiving 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3.
2.Prophylaxis of vitamin D deficiency in hypothyroidism in the newborn infant.

We immediately contacted the doctor's office, who took her off the Vitamin D3 and told her to stop taking the Synthroid for 1 week. After 1 week, she resumed the Synthroid at 100 mcg/day, and her TSH levels are now back to normal. Thus, it does appear, in concert with the findings from the above articles, that those patients on synthetic thyroxine should not also be taking supplemental Vitamin D3.
Roy

In reply, Dr Cannell denies everything. He tells her that her mother must have had elevated levels of TSH to start with, or she wouldn't have been on Thyroid in the first place. Is this necessarily true? If it was, why all this talk about measuring t4 and t3 and rt3 directly? Who knows, maybe the woman was actually TSH deficient, and this was the cause of the thyroid deficiency. Maybe she could have just switched to vitamin d. The fact that she got both high TSH and hyperthyroid symptoms kind of suggests this.

[awriter]

Accordingly, they upped her dose of Synthroid to 150 mcg/day as a result of this test. A few weeks later, she developed a rapid heartbeat (~140 bpm).
Synthroid toxicity. Can happen with any thyroid med if the dose is too high.

We immediately contacted the doctor's office, who took her off the Vitamin D3 and told her to stop taking the Synthroid for 1 week. After 1 week, she resumed the Synthroid at 100 mcg/day, and her TSH levels are now back to normal.
I'm confused. If her TSH levels were normal, why was she still taking Synthroid? Unless you mean that without the Synthroid her TSH levels would not have been normal? If that's what you meant, my question is: how would you know, especially since she'd been on the medication for many years.

In reply, Dr Cannell denies everything. He tells her that her mother must have had elevated levels of TSH to start with, or she wouldn't have been on Thyroid in the first place. Is this necessarily true?
It's true in the sense that it's likely none of the right testing: Free T4, Free T3 and rT3 was ever done -- and instead the wrong treatment for an elevated TSH that could have been caused by those problems and not the gland, was begun, and then continued. Without those tests being done, you'll never know.

If it was, why all this talk about measuring t4 and t3 and rt3 directly? Who knows, maybe the woman was actually TSH deficient, and this was the cause of the thyroid deficiency. Maybe she could have just switched to vitamin d.
That's the point. Without measuring what needed to be measured, assumptions were made about the presenting problem (elevated TSH), and an equally assumptive prescription was given, perhaps for the wrong medication. If an rT3 problem caused the TSH elevation, your mom could have been treated for a few months and the problem would have been gone. I believe ALL tests should always be done, and any diagnosis or treatment be based on the results.

Lisa

[teaser]

I guess her TSH levels were normal after the Synthroid was continued. It does sound consistent with what you've said about rT3.
Just to clear things a little, this wasn't my mother, it was the mother of some lady who sent a letter to Dr Cannell.

[Nancy LC]

Maybe the TSH test wasn't accurate. Labs do make mistakes.

[Valtor]

I prefer to treat symptoms myself, rather than treating numbers. But that's just me.

Patrick

[Beth1708]

If you develop a peripheral thyroid hormone problem (as opposed to a T4 glandular problem) -- you can no longer eat a low calorie, or LC diet (where daily carbs are less than 50g a day) -- anymore than you can continue to eat sugar, candy and cakes if you are a diabetic on medication. Your diet should change to support your thyroid hormones. Then, and only then, the good hormones can stop the negative feedback loop and restart the metabolism, and you will no longer need to take any medication at all.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Thank you very much for making this post. I seem to have this same problem & this info is exactly what I need. [I had posted on another thread & you directed me over here.]

Is there any chance you could point me towards some of the references you found? I downloaded & will read the reference you posted here, plus there is a link to a book on another post. I have a feeling that I am going to need all the info I can get to take to my doctors.

I went to the cardiologist yesterday (to organize an EBT scan). He was very nice, referred to my WOE as a fad diet & said that in 25 years he has never seen anything like this (this being a jump in TC from 188 to 460). Next up is the endocrinologist, where I'll take the list of blood tests you suggested, but I suspect more is better for info.

Thanks again, Beth

[Merpig]

I went to the cardiologist yesterday (to organize an EBT scan). He was very nice, referred to my WOE as a fad diet & said that in 25 years he has never seen anything like this (this being a jump in TC from 188 to 460).
Well I'm certainly no expert - but that serious a jump surely shouts 'thyroid' to me more than any other reason. Certainly this WOE doesn't do anything like that. When I first strictly low-carbed a dozen years ago (and when my thyroid was more normal) my TC went from 200 to 180. That's much more typical of eating LC it seems.

[Glendora]

Merpig, if you hear hoof clops in Central Park, look for a horse first and not a zebra. I see there is a debate going on here but I think you should start at your lowest common denominator, or you will be VERY, VERY overwhelmed. You're getting all this advice on details of other people figuring out what worked for them, but that will just have you chasing every possible treatment, trying it for two days and then jumping along to the next...That's no good.

I agree with finding a doctor who will do more tests. Personally I'm calling my doctor's office today and asking for an appointment with an endocrinologist. Again, starting from Base One. My doctor is limited in what she can and is willing to do. I am on Synthroid, 50mcg and have seen improvement but am still so tired. Do I need more Synthroid? Porcine gland? Natura-Sooper-Dooper-T1000? I don't know. So I feel it's better to start at the beginning.

Just because moose droppings in a titration of bat spittle worked for .05% of the population doesn't mean I should automatically jump for that one first. KWIM?

Don't be disheartened. Figuring out a protocol for hypothyroid is in fact a series of trials and errors for many people. Everyone is so individual. You may just need more of what you're getting...You may need something different entirely. But don't be put off by the fact that this trial didn't work for you 100%. I know it's a pain, but hey, it's an autoimmune disease (I assume--is yours caused by Hashi's?). They are notoriously a big of a tightwire walk to figure out.

Hang in there. Something WILL work for you.

[Merpig]

Merpig, if you hear hoof clops in Central Park, look for a horse first and not a zebra.
ROFL, this gave me the best laugh of my day so far. Thanks, I needed that. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am on Synthroid, 50mcg and have seen improvement but am still so tired. Do I need more Synthroid? Porcine gland? Natura-Sooper-Dooper-T1000? I don't know. So I feel it's better to start at the beginning.

I know it's a pain, but hey, it's an autoimmune disease (I assume--is yours caused by Hashi's?). They are notoriously a big of a tightwire walk to figure out.
Yes I have Hashi's. My doctor prescribed 50mcg Levoxyl (one of the other T4 synthetics) but this is only my 4th day taking it, so obviously too early to tell if it's doing anything or not. The doctor says it can take weeks and weeks to see anything, and she wants to repeat blood tests in 8 weeks. At this point I think I'll just ride the horse and see what happens. I mean the doctor is pretty positive I'll need more than 50mcg before I reach an optimal dose. So guess I will give this a try before I try lassoing zebras.

Luckily I don't feel *that* bad - a little tired but still enough energy to get through my days at work and my choir and art lessons in the evening. But I'd love to see my high blood pressure resolve with the correct medicine, and maybe a drop in my cholesterol too - though mine is not excessively high. But higher than it was when I lowe carbed a dozen years ago, by about 50 points for the total!

[Glendora]

So guess I will give this a try before I try lassoing zebras.



LOL!!!! :lol: I'm still looking for the horse so I'll let you know if I spot him.

Just put in a call to my dr.'s office to ask for an endo referral. :)