You guys are so nice!

[capmikee]

I went over to ZIOH because I had some questions about pemmican. Someone suggested I introduce myself in the New Members forum so I did that. I didn't hide the fact that I'm not ZC now, but I said I was considering carnivore as one of my options.

The immediate reply from Charles was that I didn't belong there and I might get kicked off! I expected to hear lots of stuff about how sauerkraut was unnecessary and I should really try ZC, but it never occurred to me that I'd just be promptly booted! I know people call us cult-like here, but the feeling over there was intense. Jeez louise!

Anyway, I just wanted to say that the friendly jibes over here from Tarlach, Frankly, Martin Levac and Caveman are nothing like the bull that seems to go on over there. Thanks for being awesome, everyone!

[bike2work]

Mike, you're one of the friendliest people on this forum!

I am shocked that you can't even go over there to ask questions. Their loss. :)

[Nancy LC]

Heh! I had no idea it was so frothy over there. Well you're with friends here.

[jschwab]

Someone on another thread (my buddy challenge) said it was like a soap opera over there. Sorry you had to go through that!

[tiredangel]

When I was trying zero carb, I found the people there very nice and supportive. There's a lot of good information and inspration there. I'm sure they get their share of trolls there, however, which may have made them a bit less open about who they let in.

[Carne!]

Go to hell...

:D

I agree with you! Everyone here is VERY nice and polite. And very supportive.

[Kristine]

Wow, nice to see nothing's changed since I first checked it out a year ago. :lol:

While I support the idea that anyone is free to start his or her own forum and run it however they'd like... Charles is a major #&%^ing jerk and has no clue how to run a support forum. I find it totally amusing how he hurts his own cause. :thdown: I LOL.

(ETA) Just to clarify... that's strictly MNSHO as a member here, not a mod. If anyone thinks my comments are unfair, remember that people like Charles - just like Dr Eades, Mark Sisson, and many others - are fair game for public criticism because they have established themselves as published experts doling out advice. Publishing on your own domain and website counts as publishing.

[Nancy LC]

There was another low carb forum I belonged to for awhile. It got very clique-ish and certain people became drama mamas, so I left that behind.

[bekkers]

I think I heard about that place... :lol:

I feel so lucky that I stumbled in here instead of other places I could have ended up. How is it that everyone's (virtually, at least) attitude here is so friendly and open? I mean, when longtimers give out advice, etc, they manage to do it with information and a "hope this is helpful" kind of way, or "this is what worked for me", rather than "you clearly just don't want it bad enough to do what we've told you already" or whatever. ugh. I feel so much happier today since I decided to stop bothering with all the nasty people. Closing all those tabs was such a freeing experience! Time to get back to where I belong.

Even if I do end up basically carnivore there is no way I am subjecting myself to the unpleasantness involved with being associated with other meatatarians. Love you guys! :clap:

[Hellistile]

That forum is not a support forum as far as I can tell. It's a shut up and read and don't open your mouth until you've done this for 12 years and maybe then you can say something type of place.

Some people like that so it's a great place for them to hang out. I prefer a place where we can exchange opinions, ideas and experiences of all. If I don't like what you're doing I don't have to read your journal or frequent that section.

[jschwab]

" How is it that everyone's (virtually, at least) attitude here is so friendly and open? "

I think the moderators here REALLY do their job - they are the best people ever as far as I'm concerned.

[perfectfit]

I was a member of ZIOH up until recently. I sent Charles a pm (over there) telling him to delete my membership there because I was never returning. He pmed me back but I never read it nor do I intend to. I have no idea if he deleted my membership but I hope he did.
I much prefer this place. :) Nicer. Friendlier. Better information (IMO).

[perfectfit]

There was another low carb forum I belonged to for awhile. It got very clique-ish and certain people became drama mamas, so I left that behind.

'Friends who are lowcarbing' perhaps? :)

[Equinox]

I went over to ZIOH because I had some questions about pemmican. Someone suggested I introduce myself in the New Members forum so I did that. I didn't hide the fact that I'm not ZC now, but I said I was considering carnivore as one of my options.

The immediate reply from Charles was that I didn't belong there and I might get kicked off! I expected to hear lots of stuff about how sauerkraut was unnecessary and I should really try ZC, but it never occurred to me that I'd just be promptly booted! I know people call us cult-like here, but the feeling over there was intense. Jeez louise!

Anyway, I just wanted to say that the friendly jibes over here from Tarlach, Frankly, Martin Levac and Caveman are nothing like the bull that seems to go on over there. Thanks for being awesome, everyone!
ramble
The difference seems to be one of having common decency, and enjoying a good discussion. I adore some parts of this forum, and then there are some places I just don't go anymore. And some posters who I know, based on their former posts, including responses to mine, as soon as I see the screen name, nothing good, polite or even sane is going to be in the post.

I love the Triple Digits Forum, that's one of the most supportive and sensitive places on the Net I find, but one of my first posts there was in response to someone rudely telling another non-triple digiter posting there to get out because she couldn't possibly understand their concerns and challenges... I told whatsherface how much that hurt me, a mere lurker.

I always say, it would be a shame if we were all the same, if we all, always, agreed about everything. I love a good discussion, in fact I spent a couple of years in Law School... I can't express enough my admiration for people who stay polite and disarming whatever shit they have thrown at them. At some point my own patience wears out. I suppose I wouldn't have made a great lawyer. Or then again, maybe I would have, that's a scary thought.

/ramble

[Metalmama]

I agree with you on the general attitude over there but I still visit occasionally because there is an absolute wealth of information - I just don't post anymore.

This forum is wonderful - I completely agree!! I've never been addressed rudely here and always find helpful information.

And Capmikee - I think you are exceptionally friendly and helpful yourself!

[jschwab]

"I love the Triple Digits Forum, that's one of the most supportive and sensitive places on the Net I find, but one of my first posts there was in response to someone rudely telling another non-triple digiter posting there to get out because she couldn't possibly understand their concerns and challenges... I told whatsherface how much that hurt me, a mere lurker. "

I remember that exchange - I was so heartened by how many people stood up for her, though. We can all learn from each other.

[capmikee]

I seem to have been unceremoniously deleted from the ZIOH forum. No notification of any kind, just "you have not entered a valid username and password combination." My posts have been deleted, but that hasn't stopped the discussion from slamming me personally. They sound like they think they're doing me a favor too:

Apparently - enabling and keeping people from reaching their goals so they HAVE to be part of a self-help forum for years and years and years is "friendly and supportive".

Getting in people's faces and forcing them to make tough decisions and face difficult realities makes you an effing asshole.

Count me among the assholes then (on both sides - facing and forcing them to face)!

I wonder what the point of the forum is. Clearly it's not to evangelize to doubters, it's not to teach beginners, it's not to answer questions, and they say it's not support. They seem to be taking issue with the fact that I've been on this forum for several years - do their members quit after a few months? Obviously Charles has been there longer, but why are so many other members so short-lived? Do they give up on zero carb? Maybe the just get sick of the place.

Maybe the forum for the zero carb elite to show off their badassness. Charles asserts that "to truly zero in on health, one has to be a little tougher than the average person." I guess you can make claims like that when you are the boss of your own forum.

To be fair, this is totally normal behavior for many religions. Zen monasteries traditionally reject people three times before they are allowed to join, and they have to go through what amounts to hazing rituals, sitting outside on the steps for days before they can enter the community, and then sitting alone in a room for days while the masters observe them. Judaism is also famously tough on converts.

[JoeB2]

I'd say ZIOH is a different place than here. My (personal) take is that there are three (somewhat implicit) rules:

1. You're ZC, or are rearranging your life so you can start ZC. They've had a rough time in the past finding a ZC space, and don't want to get overrun by DANDR people repeatedly asking why they can't have a salad, or various Paleo sects chastising them for eating too much saturated fat. I suspect that irritates veterans, and know it's discouraging to newcomers. Also, there are a lot more LC people who are not ZC than those who are. So it's easy to get a site that would get filled up with people discussing Frankenfoods, cravings, why they're stalled, etc. Not having to wade through that is refreshing.

2. A high level of personal initiative. Asking questions that could be answered in 30 seconds with google or that have a FAQ about them will generally get a harsh reply. I suspect the feeling is that if you're not that proactive you probably won't make it on ZC anyway. Also, asking someone else to do your google searches for you is a bit obnoxious. (How many times do you see "You guys keep using the term XYZ, what does that mean anyway?")

3. Don't offer opinions until you've been doing ZC for 6 months (questions are ok). I think this view is taken a bit further than it should be. For example, if Gary Taubes, author of Good Calories, Bad Calories, one of the holy texts at ZIOH (but he's not ZC as far as I know), wanted to chime in with his thoughts about metabolism while living ZC, I'd like to hear what he had to say.


If you stick within that framework, they are quite welcoming. I wrote about attending a "meetup" (a bunch of folks getting together for a ZC meat-fest) even though I was VLC, and got positive replies. At the dinner everyone was very nice. I made a few missteps on the ZIOH site, and it was..."pointed out to me." Yes, they can be very harsh, but it's not just to new people. One veteran just received a lot of grilling, and I think it really helped.

It's a different set of social norms than here, that's for sure. If you're thinking of (or have started) ZC, you should really check out the FAQs they have, as there really is some great stuff there. You'll have to decide for yourself whether joining fits with where you want to go.

joe

[Nancy LC]

I don't think Cap'n Mikee falls into any of those categories. I can't imagine why anyone would be rude to him. Maybe he smells like cabbage. :lol:

Sounds kind of cultish actually.

[capmikee]

I'd say ZIOH is a different place than here. My (personal) take is that there are three (somewhat implicit) rules:
I don't think I actually broke any of those rules, they just took issue with my open-mindedness:

1. You're ZC, or are rearranging your life so you can start ZC.
I have rearranged my life. Several times, as I eliminated more and more foods from my diet - to the point where eating nothing but raw hamburger for a week or even doing a water fast wouldn't be far out of the ordinary for me.

I did a two-week carnivore experiment this summer and I had constant diarrhea. I am trying to make pemmican now so I can try it again. 90% of the time I'm already under 5g of carbs per day - my main plant food is lemon juice, for crying out loud! I would certainly not complain about not having salad and I'm all for saturated fat. I told them I thought all vegetables contained toxins, but they even deleted THAT post!

2. A high level of personal initiative. Asking questions that could be answered in 30 seconds with google or that have a FAQ about them will generally get a harsh reply.
I've been on THIS forum for several years (apparently a bad thing), I've read a good deal of Charles' writing and a bit of their forum, and I've done enough Googling to know that I won't find an answer to "does anyone here eat beef jerky that's had flies on it while it dries in the sun?" I actually thought their responses to that were pretty wimpy - after all, isn't sun-drying the traditional method of making jerky? There's got to be some fly eggs on sun-dried jerky, my question was more about how much is tolerable and how much effort is needed to avoid it. Are these badass carnivores so wussy that they're afraid to eat a few maggots?

3. Don't offer opinions until you've been doing ZC for 6 months (questions are ok).
I wouldn't dream of it. I came there to ask questions. I was invited to introduce myself. I gave full disclosure, but I said I was willing to learn. Apparently that was the wrong answer. I was supposed to say "I'm already convinced that zero-carb is the One True Way and I will accept Charles Washington as my High Priest."

So they invited me to be a lurker. Um, yeah, right. I'm afraid I've never been much of a lurker. A forum isn't structured like a book or an encyclopedia. Reading other people's conversations seems a bit pointless to me; I either want to join the conversation or read a well-structured summary of its conclusions.

I made a few missteps on the ZIOH site, and it was..."pointed out to me."
I was tempted to flounce out at first, but I thought maybe Charles was inviting me to stick with it when he asked me again if I was considering ZC. I said I was, but I got dropped anyway, so I guess I won't have the opportunity to be "corrected."

Yes, they can be very harsh, but it's not just to new people. One veteran just received a lot of grilling, and I think it really helped.
I guess it's not for me then, I have this peculiar trait of wanting people to be polite. I find that when people are respectful, it's actually easier to determine the facts of the situation, to make a decision about what's healthy based on evidence. I'm all for "tough love" but without the love it's just bullying. You can't tell someone what's good for them without listening to their situation - even if you're lucky enough to be right, they'll have no reason to believe that you understand enough to know.

[jschwab]

Don't get worked up, hubby. I live with you and know how much of a badass you are (removing bone splinters lodged in your lip is pretty badass) and I haven't seen you eat more than about 7 g of carbs in one day in about 2-3 years. He's got his mom hanging around the forum - I would be ashamed to be so rude in front of my mom but, hey, to each his own.

[Hellistile]

If you can google the information you require, then that's the best alternative to stressing about when the hammer will land on your head. I had enough of that living with an alcoholic father that would pounce on you if you so much as accidently dropped your fork on the floor or other infractions that you would be completely unaware of.

Besides, I'm doing amazingly well without their help and/or so-called support. I'm almost at my 5 month mark with very few problems. I don't need "tough love" I need encouragement and intelligent and polite comments.

[jschwab]

We actually like in the same city as CW - wonder if we'll ever run into each other?

[bekkers]

I have read (somewhat embarrassed by this) thousands of pages of information, faq's, and journals over there, and have a very very good handle on the theories, but I did have a couple of questions that no zc fanatic (different from regular zc, in my opinion) even acknowledges, they just ignore that the post ever occurred. Or, I get the rant-y list of things you must do before I can "see the light" or whatever. The attitude is that anyone who has the audacity to wonder why/if there is a problem with using seasoning is just a pansy faker who "won't last" and needs someone to get in their face to show them how wrong they are. But why? Seriously? I JUST. DON'T. GET. IT. Who responds to being treated that way?

btw, I have been basically carnivore for the past couple of weeks and feel great, and have been very "meat/fat centric" for years, so I certainly was not approaching them with the attitude of someone who is going to be a pita about saturated fat, veggies, etc. So while I can understand not wanting to deal with newbie lazy questions, a) they could direct them to faq's in a polite and friendly way, and b) the major bitchyness has been directed at people who are not like that at all. It seems like the zioh crowd do not want to hear from people who are actually educated and self starters about meat/nutrition at all b/c we have questions that are irritating-ly without solid answers from Charles to regurgitate. (when I ask a question I would like personal experience, why did you find something to work best in such a way, etc, not "GET YOUR AS* IN GEAR AND DROP THE CRAP" or other similarly uninformative nonsense.

In any case, I learned a ton from the (enormous) pemmican thread, (capmikee btw, I would not eat the meat you described b/c I think that the temp was lower even than the "raw" dehydration temp sometimes used, and probably gave the meat enough time to spoil, on the other hand, there is one guy (Lex) who does eat 'slightly' soured meat sometimes, but even he does not let it go as long as yours did before he eats it, just fyi) and there IS a lot of other good info and interesting personal experience, just don't introduce yourself or ask anything for goodness sakes! ("LET GO OF YOUR UNHEALTHY ATTACHMENT TO FOOOOOOOOD! WhAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE??! I KNOW WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT SO DO WHAT I SAT B/C I AM AGGRESSIVE ABOUT IT! DO NOT QUESTION ME! DO YOU WANT HELP OR NOT?!?!") (love that "help" bit btw!) phew. I am exhausted just thinking about being that angry and full of myself...

[capmikee]

Sounds like I'm not alone, bekkers! That's definitely a cult-like environment. It's more than teaching a certain philosophy, it's breaking down a member's individuality and being very hostile to outsiders.

I'll be sure to let you know if I get sick from the jerky. It's stopped smelling rotten and started smelling like ketchup, so I think maybe it soured in a pleasant way. It's had plenty of air, so I think botulism is out of the question. I wonder if there are fungi that commonly infect beef?

[bekkers]

Awesome capmikee! I made some a couple of weeks ago and got really sick immediately, and it freaked me out pretty badly b/c of being in pretty early pregnancy. I dried the meat at not a "raw/cool" temp at all, but I am afraid it was maybe not as hot as it needed to be to kill bad bacteria, otherwise I have no idea why I reacted the way I did. If I was not pregnant I would try again at various temps, but it is going to have to wait! (I fed the rest to the dogs and they were fine, hmmmm...)

[JoeB2]

I don't think I actually broke any of those rules, they just took issue with my open-mindedness:Oops, I realize my post could have had multiple interpretations. I wasn't commenting on your adventure or accusing you of certain missteps (being too lazy to use google, etc.). My goal was to let others know that the folks on ZIOH don't attack all new comers, and provide some strategies (from personal experience and watching other blowups) for preventing a bad initial experience. Sorry for any hurt feelings.


I have rearranged my life. Several times, as I eliminated more and more foods from my diet - to the point where eating nothing but raw hamburger for a week or even doing a water fast wouldn't be far out of the ordinary for me.
Wow, you're more hardcore than I am :-) Hamburger scares me as it is. Raw hamburger? (shudder) Although, plenty of raw food paleo types do fine with it.

I told them I thought all vegetables contained toxins, but they even deleted THAT post! I suspect that when your account was deleted it also automatically deleted all of your posts.

traditional method of making jerky? There's got to be some fly eggs on sun-dried jerky, my question was more about how much is tolerable and how much effort is needed to avoid it. Are these badass carnivores so wussy that they're afraid to eat a few maggots? Well, there could be a concern that bugs have too much protein and not enough fat ;-) I also don't think of them as badass for eating weird parts of the animal. Most stick with muscle meat.

I came there to ask questions. I was invited to introduce myself. I gave full disclosure, but I said I was willing to learn. Apparently that was the wrong answer. I was supposed to say "I'm already convinced that zero-carb is the One True Way and I will accept Charles Washington as my High Priest." An interesting problem. There is a lot of community knowledge that would be of interest to VLC and paleo people. Your, quite reasonable, model is that why can't those folks ask questions and learn? ZIOH's, also rational, model is that the forum is designed to serve ZC folks and they don't want distractions. Their possible answer is that many of the "elders" there are on other sites as well if they're really interested in that. So there are definitely conflicting objectives.

There enough ZC folks over here that it's not much of an issue if you don't want to go to ZIOH.

joe

[capmikee]

I suspect that when your account was deleted it also automatically deleted all of your posts.
That's what I thought, but then I discovered my posts were still up on the pemmican thread.

There enough ZC folks over here that it's not much of an issue if you don't want to go to ZIOH.
Yeah, I think I just got bad advice last time I was told to go ask my questions over there.

[doreen T]

hey everybody,

Sorry you've had a bad experience on another forum; it happens, unfortunately. While I agree that Charles' ZIOH views and opinions are fair game for criticism, please don't use our forum to drag out a drama or to bash members from other boards. If you still need to vent, I suggest sharing your story through pm's rather than on the public forum.

I'd also like to remind everyone about bashing other members on *this* board. If you feel someone's posts are offensive, the appropriate action is to report it to the moderators http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/buttons/report.gif .. don't use another thread (including journals) to complain. You may also add someone to your Ignore list if you'd rather not read their posts at all.

We're well aware of recent tensions around here, and sincerely hope everyone can get back to the spirit of support.

Thanks for understanding :rose:


Doreen

[jschwab]

hey everybody,

Sorry you've had a bad experience on another forum; it happens, unfortunately. While I agree that Charles' ZIOH views and opinions are fair game for criticism, please don't use our forum to drag out a drama or to bash members from other boards. If you still need to vent, I suggest sharing your story through pm's rather than on the public forum.

I'd also like to remind everyone about bashing other members on *this* board. If you feel someone's posts are offensive, the appropriate action is to report it to the moderators http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/buttons/report.gif .. don't use another thread (including journals) to complain. You may also add someone to your Ignore list if you'd rather not read their posts at all.

We're well aware of recent tensions around here, and sincerely hope everyone can get back to the spirit of support.

Thanks for understanding :rose:


Doreen

Thanks for the reminder :) Over there, someone linked to this thread and ridiculed folks over here, too. Just human nature, I guess...

[JoeB2]

I have read (somewhat embarrassed by this) thousands of pages of information, faq's, and journals over there, Why be embarassed about reading? There's a lot of useful info, and certainly a better use of time than reality TV.

The attitude is that anyone who has the audacity to wonder why/if there is a problem with using seasoning is just a pansy faker who "won't last" and needs someone to get in their face to show them how wrong they are. But why? Seriously? I JUST. DON'T. GET. IT. Who responds to being treated that way? I'm not sure if their viewpoint is correct, but I'll try to explain why they don't like seasoning. There are two concerns. One, from experience people seem to overeat more when the meat is seasoned. Two, most of us have no idea what a "normal" metabolism looks like. So the advice is to start of minimally, learn what normal is for you, and then experiment with foods outside the core of ZC (seasoning, cheese, heavy cream, etc.). Again, I'm not vouching for the correctness, just trying to give what I think is a recreation of their thinking.

btw, I have been basically carnivore for the past couple of weeks and feel great, Yeah! I love the energy.

It seems like the zioh crowd do not want to hear from people who are actually educated and self starters There is some history at work here. When "The Bear" posted about his ~43 years of living ZC (on this site), a lot of folks attacked him, accused him of having poor health, etc. Not based on seeing him or anything, but he broke the "rules" of good nutrition so he must be sick. If you go up to the average MD and ask how long someone would last on an all meat diet, you'd hear about scurvy and other deficiency diseases. The Inuit people, and Stefansson's year-long meat-only experiment aren't exactly fringe science, but most people who are "educated" about diet and health are clueless about them.

So there's a general suspicion that a lot of "education" about diet is simply nonsense, or only applies to people who eat carbs. I'm a fairly hard-headed scientific type (I teach our department's graduate course on empirical methods), but am inclined to agree with them on this one that "knowledge" is of limited utility for critiquing ZC. That's why they're so heavy on relying on personal experience and experience of other ZCers, and that's why they don't want lectures from newcomers. When you have community members putting up total cholesterol levels around 400 and getting comments like "perfect!", you can understand why you wouldn't want nutrition "experts" hanging around (and to be fair, when you look at HDL and triglycerides, many of those cholesterol panels are very, very nice).

joe

[Kansas Deb]

Why be embarassed about reading? There's a lot of useful info, and certainly a better use of time than reality TV.

I'm not sure if their viewpoint is correct, but I'll try to explain why they don't like seasoning. There are two concerns. One, from experience people seem to overeat more when the meat is seasoned. Two, most of us have no idea what a "normal" metabolism looks like. So the advice is to start of minimally, learn what normal is for you, and then experiment with foods outside the core of ZC (seasoning, cheese, heavy cream, etc.). Again, I'm not vouching for the correctness, just trying to give what I think is a recreation of their thinking.

Yeah! I love the energy.

There is some history at work here. When "The Bear" posted about his ~43 years of living ZC (on this site), a lot of folks attacked him, accused him of having poor health, etc. Not based on seeing him or anything, but he broke the "rules" of good nutrition so he must be sick. If you go up to the average MD and ask how long someone would last on an all meat diet, you'd hear about scurvy and other deficiency diseases. The Inuit people, and Stefansson's year-long meat-only experiment aren't exactly fringe science, but most people who are "educated" about diet and health are clueless about them.

So there's a general suspicion that a lot of "education" about diet is simply nonsense, or only applies to people who eat carbs. I'm a fairly hard-headed scientific type (I teach our department's graduate course on empirical methods), but am inclined to agree with them on this one that "knowledge" is of limited utility for critiquing ZC. That's why they're so heavy on relying on personal experience and experience of other ZCers, and that's why they don't want lectures from newcomers. When you have community members putting up total cholesterol levels around 400 and getting comments like "perfect!", you can understand why you wouldn't want nutrition "experts" hanging around (and to be fair, when you look at HDL and triglycerides, many of those cholesterol panels are very, very nice).

joe

Thank you for this post Joe.I think you did a great job explaining these things about ZIOH in this post. The forum members and Charles can be very helpful if they think you are serious about being zc.

Capmikee, Lex Rooker at the Raw Paleo forum can probably answer any question you have regarding pemmican. I might be able to answer you question for that matter. I have read everything at ZIOH and RawPaleo on pemmican.

[Hellistile]

Hey Joe, I thought insects contained lots of fat? Live and learn.

[JoeB2]

Hey Joe, I thought insects contained lots of fat? Live and learn.Well, I have to admit I was guessing. I tried "bug", "mosquito", "beetle", "insect", and "larvae" in a nutrition database. The only hit was "Cereals ready-to-eat, KELLOGG'S, DISNEY MUD & BUGS," but since it was 88% carbs, I suspect those weren't the bugs in question :-)

However, your question made me curious and I found:
http://www.ent.iastate.edu/Misc/insectnutrition.html
The Giant Water Beetle is your fattiest insect (listed), and even it is 49% protein, 46% fat :(, and 5% carbs. Besides, 100g of them only have 162 calories. Although if you can find silk worm pupae, they're just over 51% calories from fat, but 9.8% carbs and only 98 calories/100 grams. I don't think the tradeoff is worth it.

Personally, I'm sticking with beef.

joe

[Nancy LC]

I'd suspect the carb is just indigestible fiber.

[Hellistile]

Maybe it was grubs I was thinking about?

[The Susie]

Hi, just wanted to say that I'll have to check out that forum for entertainment. I have never had a bad experience anywhere here. I used to go on the MSN msg boards all the time but there are some really, really cruel people out there and I'm glad I haven't stumbled upon any here. Everyone's been pretty supportive. I don't understand how people think it's cool to hide behind their computer monitors and say hurtful things they wouldn't dare say to someone's face... Let them try that with me and I'll scratch their eyes out! (I had to say that, I just got my kitty cat Halloween costume).

Peace!

[klcarbaugh]

Capmikee,
Go read the current posts on Newbie Post Thread over at the Zeroing in On Health Forum. They are talking about you.

I am going carnivore myself and I am wondering weather or not I should start a journal there just becasue. However, I had the same (if not much worse) experience as you. I kind of want to just post to get some information out of them if I need it and to have harsh criticism available when necessary (I rationalize too much).

[Hellistile]

I am going carnivore myself and I am wondering weather or not I should start a journal there just becasue. However, I had the same (if not much worse) experience as you. I kind of want to just post to get some information out of them if I need it and to have harsh criticism available when necessary (I rationalize too much).
I think you should if you feel comfortable doing it. Only you can tell if it's worth it.

[jschwab]

Capmikee,
Go read the current posts on Newbie Post Thread over at the Zeroing in On Health Forum. They are talking about you.
Yeah, I saw that. Kind of an awkward situation, not being able to post there but having discussions continuing on both forums.

I am going carnivore myself and I am wondering weather or not I should start a journal there just becasue. However, I had the same (if not much worse) experience as you.
I was in a lot of flame wars in college, on pre-Internet forums. I know what it does to me to get involved in that and I try to stay out. Sometimes it's very tempting to put in one more word, but it's rarely worth it.
I kind of want to just post to get some information out of them if I need it and to have harsh criticism available when necessary (I rationalize too much).
Sounds like it might be worth it for you. I don't think I need that so much because I'm probably my own harshest critic - my problem is usually sorting out which criticism is more valid... "You're addicted to pork! No, you're addicted to sauerkraut! No, you're addicted to salt! Cured meat! Eggs! Too much protein! Wrong kind of fat! All of the above!"

[klcarbaugh]

Thank you guys.
I will eventually try 100 percent carnivore for at lest 6 months. I am studying to be a doctor actually and I might be one of the first who advocates an all-meat diet. Even without long-term experience, I think that the literature is pretty darn convincing. My life's work is going to be an uphill battle...

Is there a way to start a journal here? Forgive me, I joined five minutes ago and haven't looked around too much.

[capmikee]

Yeah, I saw that. Kind of an awkward situation, not being able to post there but having discussions continuing on both forums.


I was in a lot of flame wars in college, on pre-Internet forums. I know what it does to me to get involved in that and I try to stay out. Sometimes it's very tempting to put in one more word, but it's rarely worth it.

Sounds like it might be worth it for you. I don't think I need that so much because I'm probably my own harshest critic - my problem is usually sorting out which criticism is more valid... "You're addicted to pork! No, you're addicted to sauerkraut! No, you're addicted to salt! Cured meat! Eggs! Too much protein! Wrong kind of fat! All of the above!"
This was all me. I was logged in as my wife accidentally.

[JoeB2]

Capmikee,
Go read the current posts on Newbie Post Thread over at the Zeroing in On Health Forum. They are talking about you.

I am going carnivore myself and I am wondering weather or not I should start a journal there just becasue. However, I had the same (if not much worse) experience as you. I kind of want to just post to get some information out of them if I need it and to have harsh criticism available when necessary (I rationalize too much).I'd say if you stick to the three guidelines I listed it's worth it. Sounds like you've hit #1 already. Violating rule #2 is forgivable. Just steer well clear of #3 and keep your opinions about ZC to yourself. (Asking about side effects you're experiencing is *not* opinion or criticism).

I wouldn't describe it as a lot of flame wars. There is a lot of harshiness in the new members thread, since that's where people learn the ropes and violate guidelines. I don't think the folks there particularly like it, and it looks like there's now a questionnaire you have to fill out for membership, so that should cut down on blow-ups in the new members area.

Within journals, there is a lot of support, with a sometimes dose of tough love. One person who has been a member for a few months mentioned she'd love to travel, but is strapped financially. A member in a (very neat) city that's a long drive away invited her out and offered to put her up with her family.

I'd say go for it.

joe

[capmikee]

Is there a way to start a journal here? Forgive me, I joined five minutes ago and haven't looked around too much.
There is. Start a thread in the Journals forum and a "journal" button will appear by your profile.

[klcarbaugh]

Oh, and speaking of niceness... go to the Marks Daily Apple forums. BEST FORUMS I have been on as of yet. They support anything this is considered high-fat paleo, including carnivore.

[Tarlach]

klcarbaugh> Good to see you around the paleo hangouts ;)

I tried to send you a PM and it failed. Do you have PM turned off?

...might just be because you are new?

[svince6]

I am skittish of anything that even remotely sounds like a cult. But I was the one who could not ever get into the RaRa :cheer: morning meetings of certain retailors I worked for. I also am the one who pretends I am not home if I see that there are representatives of a religion knocking on my door.

If I ever do try ZC in the hopes of getting a hot body like Margot or PilotGal, I will be staying right here to get my support. I enjoy the diversity of this forum.

[tiredangel]

I hate to say this, but this discussion has me thinking I really do need to try zero carb again. I think it is the healthiest way to eat, and my absolute inability to go more than 2 days without vegetables shows a dependance that I really do need to break.

Oh, and for the religious types who knock at your door, take their literature, then give it to the next competing religous type who knocks at your door. I rarely get them any more!

[perfectfit]

I also am the one who pretends I am not home if I see that there are representatives of a religion knocking on my door.

I do the same thing though I don't pretend I am not home. If they hear me inside and keep knocking I continue to ignore them. They go away eventually.

[zeph317]

i also wanted to jump on and say how much i appreciate the kindness and support on this site. my son has many medical conditions and most of those sites are also very friendly and supportive but i occasionally come across one that believes there is only one way to do things and any questioning is unacceptable.

i've also read 'over there' but would never sign up. it's just too harsh and mean for my taste and i'm definitely one that can get hurt feelings easily. i believe in the carnivore way of eating and it's been working wonderfully for me but there's no reason to be so off putting and rude.

thank you moderators and everyone who posts for making this forum a nice place to visit! :agree:

[Kristine]

I also am the one who pretends I am not home if I see that there are representatives of a religion knocking on my door.
It's extra fun pretending you're not home, but silently opening the mud room door to let an agitated german shepherd give his NSHO on their presence on his porch. :) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blackandbrew/halosable.gif

[capmikee]

I hate to say this, but this discussion has me thinking I really do need to try zero carb again. I think it is the healthiest way to eat, and my absolute inability to go more than 2 days without vegetables shows a dependance that I really do need to break.
There's no shame in saying that! The value of ZC has nothing to do with the attitudes at the ZIOH forum.

Oh, and for the religious types who knock at your door, take their literature, then give it to the next competing religous type who knocks at your door. I rarely get them any more!
I made my own religious tracts to give to evangelizers. I need to print up some more copies:

Botox: Cosmetic or Chemical Weapon? (http://www.pieandcoffee.org/2005/05/13/botox/)

[Nancy LC]

Huh... that's clever. Out crazy them!

I made the mistake of being really nice to one lady. She was this cute little old thing and she unloaded onto me about her husband and his issues, I suspected he might have Alzheimer's and I'd lost my own father to that.

Anyway, it made them come around a whole lot after that. But I went back to hiding...

[bekkers]

Well, I haven't been going to any areas other than a friend's journal over "there" and found I was deleted this morning. Oh well. I will reply to her on FB I guess. My 2 posts were not deleted, I guess they couldn't be construed as breaking the rules.

I don't have any wish to read all the vitriol that I hear is going on about us over there, I was getting upset enough before I just stopped getting involved a couple of days ago. I think it is not even close to worth the emotional energy to get involved again with all this. I will just go eat meat and get on with my life! Speaking of which, I think a trip to costco is in order for some more bacon (does anyone else love the low sodium kirkland version as much as my kids and I?) and shrimp and we shall see what else.

My kids (not quite 4 yet and 19 months) and I ate a pound of bacon last night (plus several eggs, and another this morning, and they ate 7 eggs between them. I cannot believe how fast we are going through bacon and eggs lately, I never even liked bacon all that much (I know, Atkins sacrilege! but other than a piece or two now and then I just wasn't interested in all the years I've been doing this!) but I think this lower sodium stuff is just hitting the spot, maybe it's a pregnancy thing... :yum:

Anyway, off meat shopping! See you all lovely people later! :wave:

[Nancy LC]

The brand that comes in the 2-2lb packages that isn't Kirkland is my favorite Costco bacon. I bake it in the oven at 300' and there are no splatter. I don't even turn it and it gets lovely brown in about 45-60 minutes. I seem to be going through at least 2 pounds of bacon a week! Although it definitely isn't 2 pounds after you cook it!

[bike2work]

Glad to know the Kirkland bacon is good, though I don't remember seeing it. I tried the Hormel they carry -- not one of my favorites.

[kallyn]

No matter how local, organic, pasture raised, blah blah I get, I always come back to Oscar Mayer bacon.

[Merpig]

If I ever do try ZC in the hopes of getting a hot body like Margot or PilotGal, I will be staying right here to get my support. I enjoy the diversity of this forum.
Ditto. When I decided to get *really* serious about my low carb this January (after reading GCBC) I decided I also needed an online support community I could turn to - but there are *so many* low carb communities out there! And I didn't want to belong to multiples. I wanted one place I could come to.

I settled here in February (after a false start on the Eades's Protein Power forums where I got my hand slapped for making a suggestion that didn't come directly from one of the Eades's books) and have been pleased ever since. I find it vibrant and interesting here, and the people are mostly all fun and knowledgeable and encouraging and civil.

For the last couple weeks I've actually been following an almost ZC diet - jsut meat, eggs, fats, and some dairy. I *might* go to ZIOH to check out their FAQ, but right here is where I'm staying for support. :D

[jcass]

one of the reasons I never posted on ZIOH is because I witnessed a member's entire history of posts get deleted en masse. To me rewriting history (through this kind of deletion) is extremely cult-like. It makes the leader unaccountable; unrebukable; unfalsifiable.

It is too bad Charles has to be so immature about it. He really does have a lot to say and I've spent many many hours reading on his forums. They have some very nice people too. But I've never introduced myself there, because when I witnessed the wholesale deletion of posts I knew that I didn't belong. And he will probably say "Good riddance Cass!" because he knows I will never suck up to him.

And no, we don't make a habit of criticizing members of other forums on this forum. We are doing it because one of our own members who we respect has been insulted and we know the person who did it is reading this.

[MACXXX]

we know the person who did it is reading this.

Sorry but if it is Charles who you are referring to here, he does not belong nor read anything on this forum.

[klcarbaugh]

klcarbaugh> Good to see you around the paleo hangouts ;)

I tried to send you a PM and it failed. Do you have PM turned off?

...might just be because you are new?

Hey Paleo Pal!

I am not sure how to turn PMing on but I will try to fool around with my profile settings and get it sorted out.

By the way, you were one of the first paleo eaters I came across (your wife as well) that openly ate mostly meat. It made me more critical towards Loren Cordain's research about the idea that we are naturally high veggie eaters. So thank you :) I am no longer afraid to eat how my body is telling me I need to.

[svince6]

Hey Paleo Pal!

I am not sure how to turn PMing on but I will try to fool around with my profile settings and get it sorted out.



Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you need to have 25 posts before someone can PM you.

[klcarbaugh]

Feel free to email me for now. And I suppose I will just have to get posting!