Optimal Diet during Pregnancy

[mlk18sHuny]

No, I could not think of a more creative name this morning!

Waiting on the others to come join me.... :)

Hoping to support each other following the OD during pregnancy!

For more information about the Optimal Diet, read this: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=394793

And if you are really feeling ambitious, read this: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=394198

[mlk18sHuny]

27 views and not a single response? No one following the Optimal Diet?

[capmikee]

I think Pangolina's spread herself too thinly to register this thread... but I think there are a couple other pregnant women doing ON in addition to her.

As for myself, I am neither pregnant nor following the Optimal Diet, but I'm interested in the diet, and after three harrowing experiences with my wife's hyperemesis, I am curious about pregnancy diets.

[michelle83]

I plan to start following the Optimal Diet on Monday. I tried to watch my protein and carbs and up my fat for a few days last week and lost 5 pounds.
I ran out of ideas to get in more fat without having to drink some heavy cream, so right now I'm trying to plan some menus and try out new recipes. I'm going to make some lard tomorrow so that will make things a little easier. My biggest problem is finding something for breakfast and lunch that the kids will eat and won't take more than 5 minutes to prepare. I'm tired of spending my most of my day in the kitchen.

[capmikee]

What's wrong with drinking heavy cream? Add egg yolk and seltzer: it's an egg cream. Add fruit and blend: it's a smoothie. Freeze, add vanilla and blend: it's a milkshake. Add espresso: it's an iced latte. The possibilities are endless!

[mlk18sHuny]

I had some heavy cream this morning with a little bit of coffee in it. I also added some DaVinci Hazelnut to it. Yum... :)

[pangolina]

Sorry, I keep meaning to come over here! :)

Right when I was about to post in this thread for the first time, I came across a Polish board that seemed to be largely populated by "Kwasniewski dissidents" who objected to the Optimal Diet (on grounds that I couldn't quite figure out, for the most part... machine translations will only take you so far). Anyway, there were some posts expressing concern that following the diet during pregnancy wasn't a good idea. It seems that JK's observation about Optimal Dieters often having smaller babies is true, and some people's children had to stay in the NICU for a while because they were considered too small (like 5-6 lb). Meanwhile, the parents were lectured by the doctors about having starved their children due to ketosis.

I find this whole issue really strange, for a bunch of reasons:

- Dr. K doesn't place strict limits on carbs during pregnancy. He actually says (in Homo Optimus) that if you're already well established on the diet before pregnancy, you can pretty much eat whatever you feel like (meaning real food, not sugar or junk food, obviously). Not that that applies to most of us on this board, who are pretty new to the diet -- but it does apply to a lot of the pregnant Optimal Dieters in Poland. From what I've read on the main Polish board, they do tend to go "off the wagon," especially in the first trimester, just as many American LCers do.

- I remember reading on a LC board (maybe this one?) that some American OBs had advised their patients that 75 g of carbs would be enough to keep out of ketosis during pregnancy. Others have been told that Atkins maintenance would be fine.

- The people I know who've had lowish-carb pregnancies (myself included) have generally had bigger children than average... all above 8 or 9 lb. This baby is shaping up to be a pretty big one, too.

Maybe the smaller babies are due to something that goes differently in very early pregnancy, when the placenta is being formed? Or maybe these women are getting less protein than usual, due to the fat suppressing their appetites? These seem more plausible than the ketosis theory. (My friends and I, who've had big children after low-to-moderate carb pregnancies, always got plenty of protein.)

Since I started this diet after becoming pregnant, my "Optimal instinct" wasn't developed, so I've chosen to aim for 80-100 g each of protein and carbs. In the third trimester, I'm pretty sure I've started exceeding this range, but I'm not really concerned. Anyway, I'm kind of relieved that the baby is looking big. I know JK says smaller people are healthier, but I don't feel comfortable banking my child's future on that theory. Not that I want to have another 9 lb. baby, but having one who's less than 7 lb. would be kind of disturbing.

[pangolina]

BTW, I love heavy cream and butter, and use them a lot, to the point where I can see how it might be possible to eat too little protein (at least, by mainstream standards... not sure what Dr. K would consider "too little"). A 5 oz cup of heavy cream is very satisfying. So is a 4 oz bowl of vegetable soup, with lots of butter added. I'm no longer using ratios, as the increased carb allowance in late pregnancy was making it too confusing, so now I just make a point of eating some protein at every meal, along with a small serving of fruit and a large serving of fat.

Due to the SCD, I can't have starchy foods or lactose, so I've had to eat more fruit than would be typical on the Optimal Diet. This includes some high-sugar fruits like bananas, just so that I can get the carbs in without overloading on fiber. Normally, JK suggests that women at this stage simply eat more potatoes or bread, and I'd certainly recommend going that route instead if it agrees with you.

Complicating things further, I think I have some degree of egg intolerance (I clued in to this after one of my children started complaining about feeling bad after eating eggs), so I'm just using them in baked goods for now.

Here's a typical day's menu at 35 weeks pregnant. The snacks are just "whenever."

- breakfast: full-fat cottage cheese with heavy cream; fruit

- lunch: French onion soup with bone broth, extra butter, & calcium-rich hard cheese; fruit

- dinner: pot roast & vegetables in buttery sauce; fruit


- snacks: nut flour muffin; pate & celery sticks; Havarti and avocado; berries and heavy cream

[capmikee]

I thought starch was ok on SCD?

Pangolina, have you tried eating egg yolks only?

[pangolina]

I thought starch was ok on SCD?
Nope, it's monosaccharides only, i.e. glucose and fructose. No sucrose, no lactose, no starch. We can eat some foods that naturally contain polysaccharides, like fruit that contains sucrose, and (at the advanced stages) certain beans that contain starch, but we can't have them in a concentrated form, as in cane sugar or potatoes.

It's practically the opposite of the low glycemic diet, as it was created to help with digestive issues, rather than to control blood sugar. The idea is to only eat the carbohydrates that are most easily and rapidly absorbed, so that they won't pass into the intestine and feed the "bad gut bugs." Some aspects of the diet were developed by clinical trial and error, so it doesn't always appear to make logical sense, but it works very well for a lot of people.

Pangolina, have you tried eating egg yolks only?
If anything, the yolks seem to be more of a problem than the whites, but I'm still working on figuring it out. I actually think that the underlying issue might be a sensitivity to chicken. We use fertile eggs, so there could certainly be some chicken protein in the eggs... yuck. I have a long history of getting "food poisoning" from chicken, and the child in question has also said that chicken makes her feel bad.

Another possibility is the chicken feed, as this child and I are also very gluten-sensitive. The eggs are truly pastured, and excellent quality, but I'm pretty sure they get some grains.

[capmikee]

Nope, it's monosaccharides only
Ok, that's a big difference from the low-FODMAP diet that I didn't know about. No fructose, but glucose polymers of any size are allowed.

It's practically the opposite of the low glycemic diet
That's what it has in common with low-FODMAP. Sometimes I think the glycemic index is as dangerous an idea as the lipid hypothesis.

Another possibility is the chicken feed, as this child and I are also very gluten-sensitive. The eggs are truly pastured, and excellent quality, but I'm pretty sure they get some grains.
I can pretty much guarantee it. Chickens can't grow to broiler size or lay eggs every day without some grain supplementation - even Joel Salatin, the master of all things pasture, buys chicken feed.

I'm banking on the assumption that this is my problem with chicken. I sometimes feel crappy after eating chicken or eggs, especially if the chicken is not extremely well cooked. I don't eat much chicken meat - mostly I make stock and eat deep-fried wings. I eat eggs almost every day, but almost exclusively eggs from my own chickens, who are fed a gluten-free diet.

The chicken farmer who comes to our local farmer's market is gluten intolerant, but she gives her birds a mix that contains wheat. She says she's fine if she handles the feed carefully, but I can't imagine living like that myself.

[pangolina]

Just wanted to copy my previous post about the Optimal Diet and pregnancy, which was buried in the depths of the Dr. K mega-thread. :)


----

Hi to the newcomers. I'm 33 weeks pregnant (and also on the SCD).

I've been eating high-fat, moderate-carb most of the time since last fall. In the beginning, it was mainly to satisfy cravings, as this baby seems to really love fats. Then, when I started looking into the high-fat way of eating, I came across all the Kwasniewski stuff on the web. Since the English language sites don't give instructions for pregnancy, I decided to aim for about a 1:2:1 ratio: 20% protein, 60% fat, 20% carbohydrate (in hindsight, more of a Barry Groves diet).

Then I got the books, and read his advice that the Optimal Diet was absolutely okay to do while pregnant and nursing. There are a few things that could be of concern, though. I only have time to share them briefly right now, but I'll happy to go into more detail later, if anyone is interested.

1) Beginners might go through a stage of ketosis as their bodies adjust to the diet, which might be something to avoid during pregnancy. He doesn't say this in the books, but his advice all seems to assume that the reader was already on the diet when she became pregnant, and he's not a fan of ketosis in general, so it's kind of an open question. If you're LC already, though, it seems unlikely to be a big issue.

2) He says that babies of Optimal Dieters, and children who are raised on this way of eating, will be very healthy but smaller than average, and will grow and mature more slowly. He thinks this is a good thing. (I'll explain why later on, when I get the chance.) He also doesn't think that it's good for pregnant women to gain more than 15-20 lb. If you're not comfortable with this, you might want to get off the bus... or at least take a more moderate approach, with ~60% fat and 20% protein, as I was doing in the beginning.

3) He recommends nursing for at least one year, and ideally three or more. The child should be weaned onto Optimal foods, such as broth with egg yolks, or milk with added cream. He doesn't talk about specific ratios for children, but his suggested recipes for lunchboxes are all around a 1:2:1 ratio.

4) During pregnancy, he says that you should increase carbohydrate to ~125 g/day in the last few weeks, so that the baby can build glycogen stores. He recommends getting these carbs from bread. (Since I'm still on the SCD, I can only have fruit and honey, which isn't turning out to be as much fun as it sounds! I'm finding it hard to work in all those simple sugars. I'm thinking about skipping ahead to a later stage of the SCD, and adding legumes.)

Other than that... pregnant women shouldn't restrict their overall food intake, but they also shouldn't eat just for the sake of it, or stuff themselves with snacks. You'll need to increase your protein and calories somewhat, compared to a regular adult, since you need them to build that baby! He doesn't give specific ratios, but just says you can follow your appetite (again, this assumes you've been on the diet for a while, and your appetite is a reliable indicator of your actual hunger). I've found that cravings are a good guide, and I'll often have a simple fourth meal in the late evening, containing the foods that are most appealing: cheese or yogurt for protein and calcium, heavy cream for fat, fruit for carbs.

When I sit down and work out the numbers, it turns out that I'm sticking pretty closely to the standard ratios, getting plenty of protein by mainstream medical standards, and eating a ton more fat than I ever would have imagined. My energy level is much better than in past pregnancies, weight gain is on the lower end of the normal range (and clearly "all baby;" with my other children, I tended to resemble a beached whale by this stage), the baby's size and activity level are fine, and everyone has been commenting on how healthy I look. I'm very happy with how things are going.

[capmikee]

Pangolina, you might be interested in the jam that my wife uses - Hero brand, from Switzerland. It's sweetened with glucose syrup, so it presumably has a lower fructose ratio than plain fruit.

[pangolina]

Pangolina, you might be interested in the jam that my wife uses - Hero brand, from Switzerland. It's sweetened with glucose syrup, so it presumably has a lower fructose ratio than plain fruit.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I avoid glucose syrup like the plague. It's the same thing as corn syrup (the glucose kind, not HFCS), with the added "bonus" that the European stuff is usually made from wheat.

My personal suspicion is that natural fructose might be somewhat healthier than natural glucose. And I'm quite certain that the fructose in fruit and honey is miles better than synthetic glucose. But that's a subject for another thread, and another time. I'm not going to join the fructose debate right now; I have enough on my plate (no pun intended ;) ).

[pangolina]

Baby is due very soon, so it's time for me to take a break from posting for a while. :) Hope everything goes well for all of you!

[capmikee]

Have a great birth!

[pangolina]

Just a quick note to let you know that Baby Optimus arrived last week, and is doing fine. :)

He was over 8.5 pounds at birth, but he's exceptionally long, so he was only around the 10% for "weight for height." I'm told that his placenta was also remarkably big and healthy-looking. That would have started forming in the first trimester, when I was eating very nutritious foods, but with quite a lot of protein and carbs. So it's possible that he was programmed to be a whopper, but ended up gaining less weight than expected once I started on Dr. K. Not that I really wanted him to be any bigger!

Anyway, he's been eating enough to make up for it. I'd really like to sleep for more than 2 hours at a stretch, but he has other ideas. :yawn: My biggest problem right now is that he's a very enthusiastic eater who tends to chomp during feedings (ouch!). I think once the milk came in, he was like, "woo-hoo, carbs!" :lol:

[capmikee]

Congratulations!

Optimus isn't really his name, is it?

[pangolina]

Thank you. :D

No, he's not really called Optimus. We give our children very ordinary and respectable sorts of names. I figure, what with the homeschooling and the organ meats, they have enough social challenges already. ;)

[bestrange]

congrats!!

[bekkers]

Hello all! I found my way over here after reading through 50 pgs of the other Dr. K thread, and hopefully there are still others around able to help me with pregnancy specific Optimal diet questions.

I have been lowcarbing since 2004, but with several very off the wagon time periods. Got down to my lowest weight in perhaps a decade last year after the birth of my second child (first truly lc pregnancy) at around 185, and then lost my mind and went completely nuts with bread, etc... back up to 220's. I don't even know how it happened, I just could NOT get my act back together and things kept creeping up, you get the idea. So, anyway, I am pregnant again, and this time have not been eating well AT all. I feel lousy, and am 10-15 pounds heavier than at the beginning of my last pregnancy, and I am having worse morning sickness, etc. I am also very low energy at this point, and I KNOW I need to get back to eating nutrient dense foods and much lower carb levels, but am not finding my regular lc lifestyle very easy to manage in my current nauseaus state. Everything I have ready so far about Dr. K's theories on pregnancy and children's nutrition sound very much in line with my own, (still nursing my 3.5 yr old and 1.5 yr old, giving them lots of very high fat natural foods, though probably more fruits and veggies than he would suggest) so I am hoping that using his ratios (though probably on the lower end of the rations b/c I do have sometimes have blood sugar problems, but that is my question I guess, how low for pregnancy? 100 g? 125? That is a fair bit higher than I generally ate with my last one, and my baby was 8 pounds, I don't want much larger than that quite frankly and I live in constant fear that I will grow another big baby, probably blood sugar related, that I can't birth normally.) I have a feeling lowering protein a bit and raising carbs slightly will not have a negative effect, but the actual numbers seem hard to put a finger on. I have a meter that I used last pregnancy to periodically check up on myself with, so I could just go with a certain ration to start and see how I feel and if it is negatively affecting my blood sugar. I don't relish the thought of testing myself all the time though, it adds a lot of stress and unpleasantness. Oh well, maybe for a couple of weeks until I get settled in and feel better at any rate.

Also, what is an adequate protein level? I have always used protein as the "safe" food, I mean, if I am hungry I eat an egg or a piece of meat generally, and specifically while growing a baby the concept of protein being essential is quite strong. I aimed for 100 g/day with my last pregnancy, and often went very much over that as it was a minimum in my mind. Should I shoot for 100 g of protein (125 if I find out it is twins) and 80-100 or carbs from sweet potatoes, etc, as well as much fat as I need to not feel hungry? I am not worried about losing a little weight during early pregnancy (10-15 pounds are not going to be a dangerous level for me compared to a smaller woman, my only concern would be the toxic crap in the fat cells getting to the baby) I am not sure what ratios to use from the very long and complicated Optimal Diet threads for obese or ideal weight, or what have you. I am 100 killos and 167 cm, and truly large frame, so my ideal weight on the calculator program I downloaded is 68 kilo (sounds high to me, but I could be confused) and I got my numbers written down, but of course I need to alter for the pregnancy somewhat. So anyway, what a long ramble! What are other pregnant mom's out there doing? Any advice or words of experience? How about some quick and easy recipes/meals in appropriate ratios? If we still lived near a trader joes I know exactly what I'd fill my cart with... drool, but since we don't maybe I can make my own pate, etc. ;-)

[pangolina]

Hi bekkers; hope you and baby are doing well. :)

FWIW, I didn't follow the ratios too strictly when I was pregnant, just tried to keep both protein and carbohydrates above 75 g per day, and filled up on fat. As it turned out, I ended up closer to 100 g of protein most days, but that's not supposed to be necessary. Dr. K suggests that the pregnant woman should stay on the usual diet, at most adding a little extra butter and cream, and 1 or 2 more egg yolks. He also recommends the frequent consumption of foods that are made from gelatin, pork rind, and cartilage. He doesn't suggest adding more carbohydrates until 37 weeks. At that point, you're supposed to increase the carbs to 100-150 g in the form of potatoes and bread, so that the baby can build glycogen stores to protect against hypoxia during the delivery. That's pretty much it for the "pregnancy diet."

Something to keep in mind is that Dr. Brewer's "100 g of protein" plan was originally designed for low-income women eating a rather impoverished version of the standard American diet. He assumes that you're getting some of the protein from vegetable sources (grains, beans, peanut butter), and he even mentions somewhere that Snickers and Taco Bell are relatively good options. (I took him up on the Snickers part in my first pregnancy. :o ) In that case, it might be prudent to aim for the larger amount of protein, since part of it is going to be wasted due to its poor amino acid balance.


Just as an update on my own situation: I never really got back to following the diet strictly after the baby was born, as I had people helping out around here, and I didn't want to totally confuse them and drive them screaming from the house. ;) As a result, I've been eating more protein, less fat, and about 150 g carbs, which doesn't seem to agree with me. Now that I'm back to cooking regular meals, I've tried a few times to drop the carbs, and though I felt great, it seemed to affect my milk and make the baby unhappy. I decided it wasn't worth it to risk my little one's food supply.
But now there's a new twist; in the last couple of weeks, I've unexpectedly been diagnosed with a potentially serious health problem. Depending on the results of further tests, there's a strong chance I'll be advised to go on meds that are iffy for nursing babies. Since Dr. K promises that his diet will cure this condition (big surprise there :D ), the obvious next step would be for me to go back on the OD, "whole hog" this time, if you'll pardon the expression. ;)

I'm also planning to wean my little guy onto Optimal foods (using Dr. K's recipes for feeding babies), and get my toddler back onto them as well. The older kids are going to be more of a challenge; I'm going to have to get creative. I guess I'll start another thread on feeding children this way.

[algts]

I am interested in the OD for children. I have been interested in it and dabbled in it in the past, and just now am reading his book. I hope your health problem is starting to improve.