Vitamin D through sun exposure

[lpioch]

I'm definitely looking forward to more spring-like temps around here.

My question about sun exposure for Vitamin D production
(believe me, I'm this clueless...been raised on the slather the sunblock asap):

Does it have to be direct sunlight?

What I mean is...I can be on my deck out back.
It's broad daylight, but there's lots of trees around, so there might not be a "direct sight" between me and the sun. Does that count, even if possibly diminished?

Also, if you do have fairly fair skin (i.e...I can burn with 20 minutes, depending on the conditions), does one "ramp up" their exposure time? How do you handle sun exposure for Vitamin D without burning yourself?

Is there a site you can recommend that talks about getting sunlight for Vitamin D production?

Thanks!

[soapluvr]

I would check out Weston Price and/or Dr. Mercola. They have good information about vitamin D. I am not exactly sure about all the facts but if you are fair skinned you don't need as much time in the sun.

[Hutchinson]

I'm definitely looking forward to more spring-like temps around here.Unfortunately it takes time for the nutritional changes you need to make to improve your skin's natural sunscreen potential.

My question about sun exposure for Vitamin D production
(believe me, I'm this clueless...been raised on the slather the sunblock asap): First throw out the sunscreen/sunblock except possibly the one that reflect light. Watch this video to learn how sunscreens are increasing melanoma incidence.
http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/eeXtGHSt-5o/default.jpgSkin Cancer/Sunscreen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeXtGHSt-5o&feature=channel_page)

Does it have to be direct sunlight? The more direct the higher the UVB ratio. So laying naked at noon is best, that means the maximum UVB with the least UVA exposure.

What I mean is...I can be on my deck out back.
It's broad daylight, but there's lots of trees around, so there might not be a "direct sight" between me and the sun. Does that count, even if possibly diminished? The earlier/later in the day the less UVB reaches the ground the above video explains it. But fails to mention that UVB is absorbed/blocked by upper atmospheric pollution so the further through the atmosphere the UVB rays travel the less UVB reaches the ground so you get UVA damage but no UVB production of D3 to repair that damage.

Also, if you do have fairly fair skin (i.e...I can burn with 20 minutes, depending on the conditions), does one "ramp up" their exposure time? How do you handle sun exposure for Vitamin D without burning yourself?[/url]Follow ALL THE SUGGESTIONS I have set out in this post. (http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showpost.php?p=109188&postcount=45) I know this sounds daft but you really need to raise your vitamin d status with supplements BEFORE you go out in the sun. D3 is a powerful antioxidant/anti inflammatory agent so getting your status up to 50~70ng now with 5000iu/d D3 will mean your internal protection system (tanning) kicks in straight away so you will then be less likely to burn.

[quote]
Is there a site you can recommend that talks about getting sunlight for Vitamin D production?

The vitamin D cure (http://www.thevitamindcure.com/) I haven't checked out all Dowd says but I like his calculator (http://www.thevitamindcure.com/calculator)

the vitamin d council (http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/)

Grassrootshealth.org (http://www.grassrootshealth.org/)

When you've time check out all the videos from grassrootshealth.org. they are on utube if you search for UCTELEVISION GRASSROOTSHEALTH

[amandawald]

Hi Hutchinson,

I was also wondering about when I can start usefully doing the "naked at noon" thing. I live in southwestern Germany. I remember vaguely that you once posted something from the BBC.co.uk site relating to when you will get useful sun exposure. Do you have that handy?

I can't make my mind up whether to ask my German GP for a Vit D test or to do the Grassroots thing before I stop taking Vit D3 orally for the summer. But when does that period - in Vit D terms - actually begin for me???

amanda

[Dodger]

You can get good vitamin D generation by lying in the shade of trees. Enough sunlight filters through the leaves and reflects off the ground to allow vitamin D to be made. You do have to spend more time with your skin exposed.

[lpioch]

You can get good vitamin D generation by lying in the shade of trees. Enough sunlight filters through the leaves and reflects off the ground to allow vitamin D to be made. You do have to spend more time with your skin exposed.
Good to know.

Sometimes you just cannot change your surroundings. I'm not cutting down the trees, and the most likely place sunning will happen is out on my deck.
AND...since "circumstances" (i.e...my own kids, neighbors, etc.) prevent "total body exposure", I'd have to "up" the time anyway. I know if I'm in the shade, I'm less likely to burn, so that makes sense.
According to the calculator linked above, I need about 15min. So I figure half an hour in Tshirt and shorts, eh? That's doable.

Granted, since I'm above the 40* parallel, I don't have lots of "time" but I figure I'll start as soon as May (eventhough it isn't maximized) and can go through Sept. That's about as reasonable around here as it gets. What's a girl to do?

Thanks for all the links. I'm reading through them and trying to get better knowledge about all this. Lots to keep track of.

Now...another question...
Are there any other vitamins/minerals that I'm supposed to be taking to maximize the Vitamin D? Is there anything I should be aware of that reduces the absorption/effect of the Vitamin D?

[Nancy LC]

Being middle-aged, obese, dark-skinned can all minimize the Vit D you create. I think certain diseases, like autoimmune diseases, maybe use up a lot of D. And I've read eating wheat does too.

[Hutchinson]

Hi Hutchinson,

I was also wondering about when I can start usefully doing the "naked at noon" thing. I live in southwestern Germany. I remember vaguely that you once posted something from the BBC.co.uk site relating to when you will get useful sun exposure. Do you have that handy?

I can't make my mind up whether to ask my German GP for a Vit D test or to do the Grassroots thing before I stop taking Vit D3 orally for the summer. But when does that period - in Vit D terms - actually begin for me???

amandaThe Vitamin D cure Calculator (http://www.thevitamindcure.com/calculator)

vitamin D council Links (http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/links.shtml)

Vit d EZ calculator (http://zardoz.nilu.no/~olaeng/fastrt/VitD-ez.html) Remember that it is a heat driven process. It's no good laying naked in the sun if there is no heat arriving on your skin. There needs to be a glow factor so whatever the calculator says if your skin is cold before during and after then you've wasted your time from the Vit d perspective and would have been better off taking a capsule.

You can find it out on this BBC page well for 4 days at least. click the tab UV and Pollution

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/eeXtGHSt-5o/default.jpgSkin Cancer/Sunscreen - the Dilemma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeXtGHSt-5o)Do make sure you fully understand the science of sunscreens BEFORE you buy them.

[Suldog]

Can you get a decent amount of Vit D exposure from tanning beds, or is it the wrong kind? I have usually avoided them, because I bought into the "sun is a killer run run away" hype. But, I simply cannot get outdoor sun exposure on a regular basis. I work long hours, and don't get many breaks at lunch, and weekends are intermittent. Would there be any benefit to using a tanning bed, or will I just get tan without the health benefits?

The more I discover about Vitamin D, the more important I think it is to get it.

[Nancy LC]

Some tanning beds are good. I don't know which but I'm sure they have that info at the vitamin D council.

[amandawald]

Hi Hutchinson!

Thanks for replying to my query a few weeks back. I forgot to check whether you'd answered until today, though, silly me. Probably because there's been zero chance of exposure to the sun round here - until today!!!

Anyway, you wrote the following about getting Vit D from the sun:

Remember that it is a heat driven process. It's no good laying naked in the sun if there is no heat arriving on your skin. There needs to be a glow factor so whatever the calculator says if your skin is cold before during and after then you've wasted your time from the Vit d perspective and would have been better off taking a capsule.

At any rate, we had SUN today!!! I sat in the sun this afternoon on my sheltered terrace and the sun was warm in this sheltered spot. My skin got a teensy bit pink, but I was only out there for about 15 to max. 30 minutes altogether.

I am just wondering if I will have got any Vitamin D generated??? Whatever the case may be, it certainly was good to sit in the sun and bask a little!!! We have seen so little of it round here and it has been so cold and windy lately.

Let's hope spring is on its way at last!!!

amanda

[amandawald]

Can you get a decent amount of Vit D exposure from tanning beds, or is it the wrong kind? I have usually avoided them, because I bought into the "sun is a killer run run away" hype. But, I simply cannot get outdoor sun exposure on a regular basis. I work long hours, and don't get many breaks at lunch, and weekends are intermittent. Would there be any benefit to using a tanning bed, or will I just get tan without the health benefits?

The more I discover about Vitamin D, the more important I think it is to get it.

Hi there Suldog,

If you look at the post from Hutchinson, you'll see one thing called "Vitamin D council links". Out of curiousity, I had a scroll through it - some dang interesting stuff there - and saw that there's a company that sells special "Vitamin D" lamps. They're not cheap at about 300 bucks a throw, but if you don't like the idea of ingesting your Vit D (that really is the cheapest option - the stuff I get is also a liquid which I just drop onto a spoon so it's not even "difficult" to take, like tablets can be for some people), then you could look into getting one of these lamps.

As far as I know, you just have them in your room and then sit in front of them! And hey presto, you get your Vitamin D! At least, I think that's how it works...

amanda

[Nancy LC]

There are tanning parlors that have the right beds for D, but they're a certain type. Best to consult Vit D council.

[Hutchinson]

There are tanning parlors that have the right beds for D, but they're a certain type. Best to consult Vit D council.That is true for the USA/Canada but not for UK/EEC

Our commercial tanning beds have to limit the output of UVB to a very low level so unless you buy a DOMESTIC SUNBED and ensure it is fitted with high UVB output tubes (but getting very difficult to source now) you will not get adequate vitamin d from commercial tanning palors without excessive exposure to UVA.

I think there may well be advantages to sun exposure that we are currently not aware of. We've learn't so much over the past 10yrs that it would be very surprising if there were not loads more to discover. So I personally take sufficient D3 to cover my basic daily needs and use regular short full body sun exposures to build up stored D3.

[lpioch]

OK...
I'm still desperately trying to figure this out.

Now that it is April, I have hopes in the next few weeks to be able to actually get some sun exposure.
But I would like to figure this out long-term.

Come October (I'm in New England), the sun is no longer a real option.
I'm going to join a gym that has standing tanning booths. I've been so hardened against tanning booths that I'm not sure what to think of them now.

Should I just make up my mind to suppliment in the winter? Or should I utilize the tanning booths?

They have "Smart Lamp II" Hex booths. I cannot for the life of me find out what %of UVB there is ... much less how much there OUGHT to be.

???

What say you regarding this dilemma?
Tanning booths? Or NO WAY?

[Nancy LC]

Did you consult the Vit. D council links?

[Hutchinson]

Mercola has a list of safe tanning studios (http://www.mercola.com/forms/tanning-facilities.htm) for those who live in the USA.
I've tried to find out about the UVB content of the"Smart Lamp II" Hex booths but the only information I have found so far is they are listed on a page with other tanning beds and the others had that phrase " uvb blocked" and the "Smart Lamp II" Hex booths didn't have that phrase but the fact they are not claiming uvb blocking (guarantees no vitamin d can be made just skin damaging UVA) does not mean a natural or effective amount of UVB is present.
There is also the problem that it is very easy to replace the tubes in a tanning bed so the tanning parlor owner could save money by replacing expensive UVB producing tubes with less expensive higher UVA output tubes so whatever information you find out about the tubes the tanning cubicle was initially supplied with may not apply to your local facility.

The only way is to go look at the tanning parlor and try to see what tubes they are using. But then you have the problem about "How long have those tubes been used" most UVB producing tubes have a 500~800hr life.so you need to be confident your local tanning studio has a UVB meter and checks the UVB output to ensure the UVB output is still effective.

The Vitamin D Council (http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/) are now agents for UVB lights so maybe you would do better to invest in your own.

It's probably cheaper/safer to use supplements whenever sunlight is not available or a home tanning bed that you can be sure has higher UVB output tubes and for which you can monitor the hrs used.

[lpioch]

Yes, I did check the Vitamin D Council links. But I found no info there regarding the local option.

I walked into the booths and took the info right off the bulbs, so they are using the bulbs that the booths call for.

Next time I go, I will ask if they monitor the UVB output. And if so, how much is it.
If they don't, I will simply forget about it as an option.

But if they DO monitor the UVB output, what should it be at? What are the units of measurement? What is the minimum?

[capmikee]

I have a question.

What do you do if you get sunburned? I seem to remember that if you burn, it actually destroys Vitamin D. I was outside a lot yesterday (at a running race) and I got a mild burn on my face and neck. I was wearing shorts and my legs did not burn. Would I suffer an overall loss of Vitamin D from that?

I've completely forgotten any wisdom about treating sunburn. I'd be interested if anyone here has any traditional remedies, both topical and nutritional.

[Hutchinson]

Uvguide (http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm) You will note from this article that even the dimmest reptile sits out in the sun all day.
You will see from the graphs the importance of getting your sun exposure at midday when the UVB content is at it's highest and thus you get a better uvb<>uva ratio.

For the UK I found this list showing UVB producing sunbed tubes average between 1.8~2.5% UVB. but that will be their rated output for the first 500~800hrs.

UV lamps producing high percentage UVB
Sunfit RX Plus 100W 2.40% 30W Helionova www.helionova.co.uk
ERS SOL-PROF 160W 2.50% 46W Alpha Industries www.alpha-industries.b
ASR5-17-160
ERS SOL-SOFT 100W 1.80% 31W Alpha Industries www.alpha-industries.b
AH3-24
Philips Swift 100/160W1.8-2% 30-40W Philips Phone +31 165 57 7011

[Hutchinson]

What do you do if you get sunburned? I seem to remember that if you burn, it actually destroys Vitamin D
Yes It's explained here (http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm) and the same process occurs in lizard skin as happens in human skin. for hairy animals like dogs its slightly different and also different again for cats but for vitamin d purposes we are more like lizards than cats or dogs and the matter of UVB turning Vitamin d into suprasterols to stop us getting Vitamin D toxicity from sunlight.

I was outside a lot yesterday (at a running race) and I got a mild burn on my face and neck. I was wearing shorts and my legs did not burn. Would I suffer an overall loss of Vitamin D from that?[/url] Probably not. In fact you have to get a bit pink to get the maximum amount of vitamin d but the bits that were actually burn't wouldn't have benefited much from Vitamin d.

[QUOTE]
I've completely forgotten any wisdom about treating sunburn. I'd be interested if anyone here has any traditional remedies, both topical and nutritional.
Wiki says
applying a clean washcloth soaked with cool (not cold) milk, in the form of a cold compress. In addition to the cool temperature, a protein film will form to soothe the pain and the lactic acid will help reduce inflammation. A solution of diluted white cider vinegar(approx. 1 cup in a tub of water) applied in a similar fashion may also ease pain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunburn)

Although the sun in the UK is rarely hot enough for long enough to cause sunburn I have not got sunburnt at all although I do get more sun exposure than most. I think it's because I start the season with a high vitamin d status so my skin goes into protection, rather than vitamin d synthesis mode, straight away and even though we've only has a few days this year my tan is pretty good already. I also have a high omega 3 ratio and I think having long chain molecules in cells enables them to conduct heat better I also think you have an advantage with skin cell walls being more permeable so the skin can cope better with stress. I think people with high omega 6 levels fry better and the skin is more likely to burn and that is why we have the rise in skin cancer incidence. Stephan Whole Health Source echoed what I have been thinking about omega 6 and skin cancer here recently (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/skin-texture-cancer-and-dietary-fat.html)
I also drink green tea and that's another anti inflammatory that is associated with photoprotection. I also use a fair bit of tomato puree and that's another excellent way of boosting skin's natural photoprotection. I wrote about improving your skin's natural photoprotection here some years ago. (http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showpost.php?p=109188&postcount=45) it's about time I did another post on the topic as that is now somewhat out of date.

[amandawald]

I have a question.

What do you do if you get sunburned? I seem to remember that if you burn, it actually destroys Vitamin D. I was outside a lot yesterday (at a running race) and I got a mild burn on my face and neck. I was wearing shorts and my legs did not burn. Would I suffer an overall loss of Vitamin D from that?

I've completely forgotten any wisdom about treating sunburn. I'd be interested if anyone here has any traditional remedies, both topical and nutritional.

Barry Groves mentions in one of his books that the traditional "sunscreen" used in Singapore when he was there in the 1960s was vinegar and coconut oil - he jokes how everybody used to smell like "fish and chip shops" (where you get take-away battered and deep-fried fish, served with malt vinegar in the UK). I would try using coconut oil before and after sun exposure. It certainly can't do any harm! The worst thing you can do apparently is to wash your skin too quickly after being out in the sun as you then wash off the newly created D.

amanda

[soapluvr]

I rarely get sunburned but the last time I did I was in Cozumel on a cruise. I put coconut oil on my sunburn and never blistered or peeled and two days later it was a nice brown. I guess there is something in the coconut oil that heals but I'm not sure what.

[Hutchinson]

I rarely get sunburned but the last time I did I was in Cozumel on a cruise. I put coconut oil on my sunburn and never blistered or peeled and two days later it was a nice brown. I guess there is something in the coconut oil that heals but I'm not sure what.
Benefits of Coconut Oil (http://www.bioriginal.com/services/files/healthbenefitsofcoconutoil.pdf)
The two main fatty acids found in coconut oil - lauric and capric acid -are MCTs with special properties. They exhibit anti-microbial activity and help combat pathogenic or disease-causing viruses, bacteria and other micro-organisms.
Coconut oil has been found to aid in the management of inflammatory disease, by increasing production of the anti-inflammatory compound, interleukin-10, and decreasing inflammatory mediators such as interleukin-6 and tumor necrosis factor.

If it's working as an anti inflammatory agent that should help sunburn. The anti microbial activity would help prevent any damaged skin going manky. I think CO is also anti fungal so may be useful for athletes foot type infections.

[capmikee]

I've used coconut oil on my skin before, but sometimes it actually seems like it irritates and dries my skin. It may have been something else, but it made me hesitate to try it again.

[amandawald]

[QUOTE=Hutchinson
If it's working as an anti inflammatory agent that should help sunburn. The anti microbial activity would help prevent any damaged skin going manky. I think CO is also anti fungal so may be useful for athletes foot type infections.[/QUOTE]

It does indeed help with anything fungal!

amanda

[CallmeAnn]

It does indeed help with anything fungal!

amanda
Will it help if you ingest it or do you have to rub it on?

[Hutchinson]

Will it help if you ingest it or do you have to rub it on?I do both.
I consume coconut oil and also massage it into my feet or scalp if I think I've got a problem.

I think it's the same with Vitamin D, it best to get both sun exposure (which puts D3 right on the skin surface) and consume it, to ensure sufficient is circulating and is also available on the surface of your skin.

[paleokiai]

I have a question:

I'm taking BCP to regulate periods, and for some reason I remember quite distinctly that the pills increase sunlight sensitivity (although looking back on it now I can't find a reference). I live in the south, so the sunlight is not as intense, but I've been putting sunscreen on anyway; I don't burn but I have been getting more spots after taking BCPs...

Should I limit my Vitamin D uptake to supplements and diet? And does anyone know how BCPs make one more sun-sensitive?

[Hutchinson]

I have a question:

I'm taking BCP to regulate periods, and for some reason I remember quite distinctly that the pills increase sunlight sensitivity (although looking back on it now I can't find a reference). I live in the south, so the sunlight is not as intense, but I've been putting sunscreen on anyway; I don't burn but I have been getting more spots after taking BCPs...

Should I limit my Vitamin D uptake to supplements and diet? And does anyone know how BCPs make one more sun-sensitive?Birth Control Pills may affect your skin's sensitivity to sun by changing your hormonal balance.

Vitamin D is an ENABLING substance and will enable your hormonal system to work better as and when you attain and maintain the 25(OH)D that allows it to work as it evolved.
So taking sufficient Vitamin D3 to raise 25(OH)D above 50ng will help correct any imbalance the skin the BCP's create and also improve your skins natural sunscreen potential.
You may also consider improving your omega 3 <>omega 6 ratio More omega3 improves photoprotection and less omega 6 reduces the propensity to burn.

See also Stephan Whole Health Source (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/03/skin-texture-cancer-and-dietary-fat.html)
and

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/eeXtGHSt-5o/default.jpg Skin Cancer Sunscreen The Dilemma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeXtGHSt-5o)