Vitamin D and Diabetes-Can We Prevent it?

[Hutchinson]

Vitamin D and Diabetes-Can We Prevent it? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTtmvMvgfl0&feature=channel_page) Frank Garland, PhD, discusses vitamin D and the opportunity for prevention of diabetes.

[Hutchinson]

As the number of times this important video has been viewed is increasing so very slowly, I hope you don't mind if I put a brief résumé of it here so those who haven't got access to broadband or have limited access and are reluctant to use it watching You Tube videos have a basic understanding of Frank Garland's thesis.

In this half hour video Frank Garland discusses the relationship between http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/default-1.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTtmvMvgfl0) Diabetes incidence and Vitamin d status, PLEASE CLICK THE IMAGE and watch the video.

It is an extremely important summary of the evidence we have to date that will enable those who understand this evidence to not only take effective action to lower the risk of Type One incidence but also to possibly modify the course of their type one diabetes.

One of the most interesting slides is the plot of Vitamin d status according to latitude.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll181/stratplan/diabetesincidence1.jpg

We see going away from the Equator, both North and South increasing incidence at more or less the same rate the further from the equator you live. But take note of the fact the central point in the graph, equivalent to living at the Equator, does not result in ZERO incidence of Type One Diabetes. This implies low vitamin d status is NOT the cause of diabetes. Something is happening that triggers the disease and that may happen whatever your 25(OH)D. However the rise in incidence is modifiable but we cannot all move to live on or near the Equator but we can modify our 25(OH)D status.

Dr Garland then shows us a chart of Type One incidence in Finland from 1965 to date and points out the connection between changes in Vitamin d intake and the impact these changes have had on the rate of incidence of Type I.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll181/stratplan/diabetesincidenceFinland.jpg

He compares the incidence rate of those children who had no D3 supplementation with those who had supplements sometimes and those who had supplements regularly.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll181/stratplan/diabetesincidencereduction.jpg


Dr Garland spends some time talking about the Eurodiab trial
of 16000+children under 15 started in 1988 in Europe

He then takes this information and looks at it in terms of
Latitude,
ultraviolet radiation,
season and
person (race, BMI, exercise)
there are slides that cover each of those points that he discusses in detail.

He then spends some time explaining the mechanism by which Vitamin D status may have this impact on diabetes incidence and produces some interesting slides that may help people new to this topic understand what may be happening.

I can't really do justice to this talk in a brief summary here but I do hope people follow the link above and spend time trying to understand the science he is detailing.

The important conclusion is that raising Vitamin d status above 40ng 100nmol/l and ideally to around 60ng/mL 150nmol/l will have a major impact on the incidence of Type One and will also improve the prospects for everyone particularly those with diabetes. He suggest 1000iu for children and 2000iu/d for adults BUT for UK readers we have t0 grasp the facts of Vitamin d mechanics. Each 1000iu/extra daily raises status 25nmol/l ~ 10ng. 2000iu/daily for the average adult achieves only 50ng/mL rise or when added to current average 35nmol/l (Feb) status 85nmol/l still under the minimum tarrget of 40ng 100nmol/l.

To attain and maintain a status nearer the ideal for least chronic disease incidence 60ng 150nmol/l an intake of 5000iu/d for Females or 6000iu/d for males is the typical minimum dose needed in latitude for the UK.

[Hutchinson]

The geospatial relation between UV solar radiation and type 1 diabetes in Newfoundland. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19238314)Type 1 diabetes (T1DM) has been previously associated with northern latitude and vitamin D insufficiency. This study investigates the geospatial association between average daily ultraviolet B (UVB) irradiance and T1DM across the province of Newfoundland (NL), Canada. NL has one of the highest documented incidences of T1DM worldwide. A complete list of patients diagnosed (1987-2005) with T1DM in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador (NL) was constructed using multiple sources. All places of habitation at diagnosis were ascertained. Ecological analysis using Bayesian estimation was performed employing both NASA UVB data and latitude. Correlation of T1DM to both UVB irradiation and latitude was measured. A statistically significant correlation of erythemal UVB irradiance was observed (-0.0284: 95% CI -0.0542 to -0.0096). A more significant correlation of T1DM was observed with erythemal UVB irradiance than with latitude. This study suggests that erythemal UVB radiation may be geospatially associated with the incidence of T1DM in NL.
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/UVBirradiancenewfoundland.jpg

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/diabetesincidencenewfoundland.jpg
this is the type One Diabetes incidence for the same census areas

[dancinbr]

Good input.

However, there are even more studies indicating that Vitamin D deficiency is a culprit in many more disease besides diabetes, including various cancers and some autoimmune diseases.

I have a link to Dr. Mercola's Vitamin D video, which is excellent as well.

Here it is

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/12/16/my-one-hour-vitamin-d-lecture-to-clear-up-all-your-confusion-on-this-vital-nutrient.aspx

This video is one hour long and excellent.

Also, as a member of TrackYourPlaque forum, I have found out that levels of 60-80 are optimum levels of Vitamin D3, which collaborates what Dr. Mercola states in his video based on lectures he has attended of world renowned experts.

Also, if you take a Vitamin D3 supplement it must be an oil based capsule supplement as opposed to a tablet. The tablets are not absorbed well and will raise your serum levels but every so little and not enough to get up to the 60-80 optimal range.

I had my Vitamin D3 levels checked

The correct test is 25(OH)D, also called 25-hydroxyvitamin D

My initial level is 34 barely above a minimal threshold.

At this point I am taking 6000 iu's of Vitamin D3 per day.

I may raise it to 8000 iu's to help build up to the 60-80 serum levels now considered to be optimal. It is virtually impossible to overdose on vitamin d3 but you should periodically check it. Since I go for blood work every three months I have added the 25-hydorxyvitamin d test to my sheet.

So, all of thise news about Vitamin D is great. These are recent discoveries made in the past decade or so.

Many doctors have not caught on to this; they aren't keeping up to date. So you must take it upon yourself to stay up to date.

Best wishes,

Ralph

[Hutchinson]

Indeed I think heart disease is probably one of the major areas where Vitamin d is vital to save lives.
http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/NJHfdUKSD2A/default.jpg Vitamin D and Cardiovascular Disease Prevention (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJHfdUKSD2A)
During this talk he mentions the fact that there are over 200 different vitamin d enzyme actions specifically related to the cardiovascular system. That means low vitamin d status can affect your heart and blood system in over 200 different ways.

I've picked out this talk rather than the cancer ones because it has a couple of sections that are particularly important for diabetics. More than 65 percent of deaths in diabetes patients are attributed to heart and vascular disease. So please download the video so you can watch it more than once and do something about taking effective strength D3 (code WAB666) (http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=10421&at=0) and then 3 months or so later getting a 25(OH)D test to check that is enough. You ideally want to end up around 60ng 150nmol/l.
If you look here most people so far tested by Grassrootshealth have been too low.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_anQ81dzOVXk/Sa0QOyxXmfI/AAAAAAAAA04/gXvc-vJGCyA/s400/GrassRoots+Health+graph.gif (http://www.grassrootshealth.org/index.php)

Bear in mind the danger level is above 200ng so you can see the chances of getting anywhere near that are slim. Dr Davis and others consider that for people with a chronic condition 60ng should be the lowest level to aim for and 70ng would provide a better reserve of D3 to fight inflammation and infection.

[AgimA]

Thanks for the info!

Do you have any information regarding vitamin E? It seems that this one is also beneficial for diabetics.

[Hutchinson]

Thanks for the info!

Do you have any information regarding vitamin E? It seems that this one is also beneficial for diabetics.I haven't studied vitamin E so am not able to help with that.

http://www.whfoods.com/nutrientchart.php?id=111
It's relatively easy to get your daily requirement of Vitamin E from foods but most of the population (because we wear clothes) tend not to have ideal levels of vitamin D. Diet can only provide a tenth of our D3 requirement.

Either you must take an effective strength (5000iu/d minimum for most adults above lat 40 in winter) or either use a high UVB output sunbed regularly or lay naked in the sun at noon for 20mins. IMO we should ensure 25(oh)D status is around 60ng 150nmol/l first and then consider omega 3, magnesium status only when these 3 common insufficiencies have been dealt with should we explore the less common deficiencies.

[AgimA]

Hutchinson, I waded the inet for the TH1-TH2 shift problem. It seems that I, as a NIDDM Type I (what a feat!), have my THs shifted towards TH2, now I'm suddenly stumbling on studies Vitamin D as an inmunomodulator, that means that it will even the balance between TH1 and TH2 white cells, Vitamin E is also mentioned as an modulator of the immune system.

I bought a bottle with 4500 IU/ml, so to get your suggested 5000 IU/d I would have to take roughly 50 drops of this liquid. They write that 45 drops equal 1 ml. Should I take it over the day or just at once? Morning? Night?

[Hutchinson]

I bought a bottle with 4500 IU/ml, so to get your suggested 5000 IU/d I would have to take roughly 50 drops of this liquid. They write that 45 drops equal 1 ml. Should I take it over the day or just at once? Morning? Night?Any chance you could put the brand name of the stuff you have here it would make more sense if I could find the product details myself.
If it is similar to this (http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=14060&at=0) then it's not a very cost effective way of buying D3. and yes you would need 50 drops a day.

Consider these Now foods 5000iu oil based (http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=10421&at=0) use $5 Introductory discount code WAB666 or these 5000iu dry powder (https://secure.bio-tech-pharm.com/detail.aspx?product_id=18&cat_id=2&subcat_id=0) both are good and cheap.

[AgimA]

Hmmm, the product's name is: Vi-De 3 (Cholecalciferol) and costs about 3.90$.

But what about the side effects of overdosing? The wikipedia article has some scary stuff about them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Overdose

It says that over 10000 IUs things will get tricky. Any infos on this issue?

[Hutchinson]

Hmmm, the product's name is: Vi-De 3 (Cholecalciferol) and costs about 3.90$.

But what about the side effects of overdosing? The wikipedia article has some scary stuff about them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Overdose

It says that over 10000 IUs things will get tricky. Any infos on this issue?

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/th_heaneysafety.jpgThis slide from Heaney's talk on deficiency (http://www.grassrootshealth.org/_download/Heaney_What's_Vitamin_D_Deficiency120208.pdf) shows the trials using vitamin d plotted alongside reports of adverse events.
You will see at the levels we are talking about. Under 80ng 200nmol/l and intakes below 10,000iu/daily nothing adverse or remotely near has ever occured.


the first reports of adverse events occur ABOVE 200ng 500nmol/l
There are also many examples of people taking HUGE amounts more than that and not getting adverse reactions. Vitamin D toxicity, policy, and science. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18290725)

To get to those levels you need to be taking 30~40,000iu/daily for many months. What happens is that the higher your 25(OH)D gets the more resistant it becomes to absorbing D3 so the higher the status the higher the amount required to raise status further.

Sorry I can't track your product down but it is likely it is 100iu per drop and to get 5000iu/d therefore you would need 50 drops.How many drops or ml are supposed to be in the container?

[AgimA]

The whole bottle contains 10ml which would equal to 45000IUs per container.

[dancinbr]

The whole bottle contains 10ml which would equal to 45000IUs per container.

When starting off on Vitamin D3 therapy many folks will find their numbers dangerously low in the 20-40 range. You need to be in the 60-90 range.

To get it up to that range in a reasonable timeframe, requires a high dose of Vitamin D3 in oil based capsules. Many of the folks over on www.trackyourplaque.com talk about taking 8000ius daily and once you see that your serum levels of 25(oh)D has reached 80 to 90 or so you cut back to either 4000 or 6000 ius daily and continue to monitor with quarterly or semi-annual blood work.

It really is awfully hard to overdoes on Vitamin D3; it really is.

Just think I believe it is about 1/2 hour in the sun in a bathing suit gets you 10,000 or was it 20,000 ius of Vitamin D3.

I am going for quarterly blood work monitoring many things including serum Vitamin D3 and I am taking 8000ius daily right now. My first reading was 34. I have a long way to go and want to build up quickly since this is a major factor in fighting many diseases, heart disease, inflammation, etc.,

Ralph

[Hutchinson]

The whole bottle contains 10ml which would equal to 45000IUs per container.That is roughly 90 days supply. I'd roughly mark a third from the top and a third from the bottom and make sure I reached the first 30 day mark over the first month, the second in 2 months and empty the bottle in 3 months.
I don't think I could be bothered to count 50 drops daily.
I think a full squirt of the dropper would probably be sufficient for a week.
It you look to see how far the level goes down when a full dropper is removed that will help you work out the bulk dose.

Providing you consume a third of the bottle, each month, for the next 3 months that will be fine. Because D3 is fat soluble, because it has a 21 day half life taking it weekly or fortnightly averages out and in the long run makes very little difference. (except if you are pregnant or breast feeding in which case buy some 5000iu capsules and use up these drops after you have stopped Breast feeding)

[lil' annie]

Be sure to research all the other threads about Vitamin D, too.

Elsewhere you'll see that plenty of people are having side effects from HIGH dose D-3; I've only recently learned that I was supposed to be taking MAGNESIUM along with Vitamin D -- so people say, Oh, You Don't Have Problems with Vit.D -- that's "just" a magnesium deficiency.

Be CAREFUL.

I've been supplementing with D for at least five years, and before these forums, I'd never read anything about magnesium.

I have never been able to supplement with magnesium, neitiher internally nor externally - with bath salts.

But it's not just me with the weird symptoms, in my family people who take far less than I do, and far less often, they too have similar symptoms after taking the D.

I want summer to arrive, so that there is a SAFE, symptom-free form of Vit.D with NO side-effects. I had NO idea that the wonder vitamin, Vit.D3 has been responsible for all manner of weird mental states, muscle twitches & bad horrific cramps, intolerable insomnia, polyuria, etc.

And realize, I only supplement from October through March. Well, in the past, that's what I did - I never would have taken a high dose of Vitamin D had I been aware that it NEEDS magnesium -- as I already know that I cannot tolerate any type of mag.

[Hutchinson]

Be sure to research all the other threads about Vitamin D, too.But take particular care with those that are unable to support their claims to links to peer reviewed published research.

Elsewhere you'll see that plenty of people are having side effects from HIGH dose D-3; Indeed there will always be some people with overactive imaginations who are unaware of the inert and inactive nature of the molecule we call cholecalciferol or the fact it is biologically identical to the cholecalciferol your own skin makes.

I've only recently learned that I was supposed to be taking MAGNESIUM along with Vitamin D -- so people say, Oh, You Don't Have Problems with Vit.D -- that's "just" a magnesium deficiency.It is likely as both Vitamin D deficiency and magnesium deficiency are very common people will need both. You may also benefit from Vitamin K2.

Be CAREFUL. To take an effective amount of vitamin D3 that enables your body to attain and maintain the http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/th_chronicdiseasepreventionvitamind.jpgNATURAL 25(OH)D status associated with the least incidence of most chronic diseases. (http://www.grassrootshealth.org/_download/disease_incidence_prev_25ng_p_ml_bline072608.pdf)

[lil' annie]

Overactive imaginations?

Do you pride yourself on being so rude, or does this come so naturally to you, that you are unaware of it?

I am delighted to find out that a LARGE number of symptoms that I've attributed to "Ain't Gettin' Younger" are simply due to the High Dose D-3 I've been following.

I already take K-2.

But anyway, I'm not discussing ANYTHING nutritional with you ever again, so please spare us your rudeness.

[Hutchinson]

But anyway, I'm not discussing ANYTHING nutritional with you ever again, so please spare us your rudeness.Pointing out to other readers the improbability of adverse reactions to inactive, inert substances that are biologically identical to the form made in human skin is not rudeness, it is simply fair comment. Perhaps you should try to understand the concept of Nocebo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo)

[dancinbr]

Folks, the important thing is to monitor, monitor and monitor all the key critical tests via blood tests.

All of what everyone is saying is important. Vitamin K2, magnesium in citrate form, which absorbs best as compared to oxide form, Vitamin D3.

You MUST do at least semi-annual blood tests, preferably quarterly blood tests to assure that you have reached optimal levels of all these various minerals, vitamins, etc.

This is very individual.

Ralph

[Hutchinson]

Folks, the important thing is to monitor, monitor and monitor all the key critical tests via blood tests.

All of what everyone is saying is important. Vitamin K2, magnesium in citrate form, which absorbs best as compared to oxide form, Vitamin D3.

You MUST do at least semi-annual blood tests, preferably quarterly blood tests to assure that you have reached optimal levels of all these various minerals, vitamins, etc.

This is very individual.

RalphBUT BUT BUT the human body evolved living NAKED OUTDOORS. The GREEN area on this graph is the NATURAL status we evolved to attain and maintain.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/th_vitamindstatus.jpg (http://s578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/?action=view&current=vitamindstatus.jpg)

We know the http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/th_vitamindstorageby25OHDleveljpeg.jpglevel of supplementation generally required to replicate that (http://s578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/?action=view&current=vitamindstorageby25OHDleveljpeg.jpg)

So while it is true that AFTER you have have used 5000iu/daily/D3 for 3 ~4 months a$30 Grassroots D action 25(OH)D (http://www.grassrootshealth.org/daction/index.php) will enable you to assess how much more you need to take to achieve optimum status, we know that amounts in the region of 1000iu for each 30lbs weight generally provide a reasonable response.

We can also see from the first link the huge area between the green safe effective natural vitamin D levels and the danger level represented (unfairly by the forshortened graph) by the red section above 200ng/ 500nmol/l.

[ProfGumby]

Great info here and there is another tread on the site, The Great Vitamin D Experiment (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=332508&highlight=profgumby)

I take the NOW brand, but the 5,000 iu gels. I take 5 or 6 of them once daily in the winter and a Cal/Mag capsule that works in synergy with the D. It is also recommended to take Vitamin A with your D, I take one or two A gel caps daily, from Cod Liver Oil.

Check out the thread link for a ton more info!

Also, I second the idea to have regular check ups and keep an eye on your blood levels to really know what is going on.

[lil' annie]

Folks, the important thing is to monitor, monitor and monitor all the key critical tests via blood tests.

All of what everyone is saying is important. Vitamin K2, magnesium in citrate form, which absorbs best as compared to oxide form, Vitamin D3.

You MUST do at least semi-annual blood tests, preferably quarterly blood tests to assure that you have reached optimal levels of all these various minerals, vitamins, etc.

This is very individual.

Ralph


Curious, just how many tests do you have, and how frequently do you have them? Are you doing these on your own, independent of a medical professional, or does your doc order them?

[MizKitty]

"Just think I believe it is about 1/2 hour in the sun in a bathing suit gets you 10,000 or was it 20,000 ius of Vitamin D3."

"I want summer to arrive, so that there is a SAFE, symptom-free form of Vit.D with NO side-effects."

Something a lot of people are not aware of is that as we age, we lose the ability to activate vitamin D through sun exposure.
Dr Davis talks about it in his blog.

"But the ability to activate D is lost by the majority of us by age 40 and even a dark tan is no assurance that sufficient skin prohormone D activation has taken place."

Do a search on the word "sun" on his Vitamin D page, and you'll find many references to this.
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/vitamin%20D

[picaboo]

.........wow..........
Thank you ...sosososo.... much for the info

[eddiemcm]

About vitamin D:
Actually, D is a hormine-who cares about that?
Most info says that adults can tolerate 10000 IU max.
I personally limit myself to 7000 IU.
Cheers
Eddie

[Hutchinson]

I take the NOW brand, but the 5,000 iu gels. I take 5 or 6 of them once daily in the winter Dr Davis Heartscanblog finds his Wisconsin patients generally only require on average 5000iu/d female 6000iu/daily (http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-rda-for-vitamin-d.html) male to achieve 60~70ng/mL.

He states , in my experience, ranges from as low as 1000 units per day to as high as 20,000 units per day, rarely more.

I am therefore somewhat concerned that you appear to be using 25,000iu/d.

[Hutchinson]

"But the ability to activate D is lost by the majority of us by age 40 and even a dark tan is no assurance that sufficient skin prohormone D activation has taken place."While I agree with most of what Dr Davis has to say about vitamin d I think he is overstating the case with regard to the inability of the skin of people over 40 to make vitamin D.

Over this winter to try to raise my status over 48nmol/l I increased my daily supplement intake 2000iu and used a secondhand home sunbed twice weekly. While there is some question over the level that was recorded (depending on which test one takes as the most accurate) it is clear the increase from UVB must have been far higher than Dr Davis would have anticipated.

I my experience, with 64yr old skin, it is still possible to make a significant amount of vitamin d from UVB exposure. As I think there may be other benefits from sun exposure that we currently have not discovered I think getting regular full body sun exposure is important, however old you are.

[MizKitty]

Still, it's good to be aware that many maturer people may NOT be able to activate D thru sun exposure, and i wanted to pass along that info.

[eddiemcm]

"Vitamin" D is actually a hormone.As we age,some of our hormone
producing ability declines for most of us.
Eddie

[Hutchinson]

"Vitamin" D is actually a hormone.As we age,some of our hormone
producing ability declines for most of us.
EddieThat is indeed true, but that is not a good reason for failing to take as much advantage as we can of the NATURAL process.

Providing 25(OH)D tests are being done to ensure a NATURAL level around 60ng/mL 150nmol/l is being achieved it does not matter particularly whether that comes from supplements or sun or UVB tubes.

There is so much we have learn't over the last 10yrs about Vitamin D that it would not surprise me if there weren't other advantages of sun exposure that at present we have not discovered. I don't want older people in general thinking short sessions of full body non burning sun exposure at midday are a waste of time or are more likely to do harm than good (although those living under an ozone cloud may be in this category)

Even if your skin's ability to make vitamin D3 has declined 40% there will still be a useful amount to be gained and getting it directly, short circuits the oral delivery route and may be particularly beneficial for those with Crohn's or other inflammatory digestive disorders. Getting sun exposure directly on the skin may also improve wound healing as anti microbial peptides are upregulated by skin cells.

[eddiemcm]

I try to get 15 minutes of sun per day but it isn't always possible
in Houston.I supplement with D3 regardless of my luck with the
sun.
Eddie

[dancinbr]

I cannot wait for summer to be here in NY.

I like being outdoors.

I like going into the pool, which has its own set of issues with chlorine.

I like the sun.

Now, my wife hates the sun, hates heat, etc., etc.,

So it is certainly better for the natural approach but as everyone has seen the deficiency of Vitamin D3 becomes more sever the further north you go in the USA, Canada, etc.,

Why? You know why. Very few of us run around in the winter with just a bathing suit on!

:D

[ProfGumby]

Dr Davis Heartscanblog finds his Wisconsin patients generally only require on average 5000iu/d female 6000iu/daily (http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-rda-for-vitamin-d.html) male to achieve 60~70ng/mL.

He states , in my experience, ranges from as low as 1000 units per day to as high as 20,000 units per day, rarely more.

I am therefore somewhat concerned that you appear to be using 25,000iu/d.

I can see your concern, but don't worry. I rarely take more than 25,000 iu and I have blood tests done on a regular basis. And Dr Davis finds people generally only require on average 5000iu/d female 6000iu/daily male, that does not mean absolutely. I do not recommend anyone take what I take in the levels I take, but I do know some folks who take even more. And I do scale it down as summer approaches, My summer doses are far lower, 4,000 iu - 6,000 iu.

I tried maintaining a level of 4,000 iu through the winter last year and a lot f the signs of D deficiency started creeping back. My favorite is dry scaly skin on my face and elbows like sandpaper. This does not happen with sufficient D.

And apparently heavier people like me, require more D as your body has a funny habit of storing D in your fat cells, never to be used again.

Check out the thread here that I highlighted before, search this site for "The Great Vitamin D Experiment: Ongoing"

:wave:

[Hutchinson]

Why? You know why. Very few of us run around in the winter with just a bathing suit on!Whenever your shadow is longer than you are tall, the angle of the sun is such that UVB rays have such a distance to travel through the upper atmospheric pollution, that insufficient UVB reaches the ground for Vitamin d synthesis.

So it makes no difference (for your vitamin d status) how much or how little/much clothing you wear in winter or if fact anytime your shadow is longer than your height.

Your skin only makes vitamin d when your shadow is SHORTER than you are tall. The nearer to directly overhead the sun is the shorter your shadow and the less atmospheric pollution the UVB rays have to penetrate. However, when the sun is directly overhead laying horizontal exposes more skin than standing upright (where only the top of you head benefits)

The reason to stress full body prone, near naked, midday, sun exposure as that allows you to get the MAXIMUM amount of UVB exposure and the minimum of UVA exposure.

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/eeXtGHSt-5o/default.jpgSkin Cancer/Sunscreen - the Dilemma (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeXtGHSt-5o)

this talk helps you understand better how/why sunscreens increase cancer incidence by decreasing UVB exposure (vitamin d status) while increasing UVA exposure.

The slides used in that presentation can be viewed here
Skin Cancer/Sunscreen -- the Dilemma (http://www.grassrootshealth.org/_download/Gorham_Skin_Cancer_Sunscreen_Dilemma120208.pdf)

[AgimA]

Thank you for your info! A real eye opener!

Do you have any info on rubbing Vit D on moles? I've read that that may help in making them disappear. There's another substance that some claim that it may help with mole treatment, neem oil, have you ever heard of it?

Do you have any sources where I could buy Vit D in bulk?

[Hutchinson]

Thank you for your info! A real eye opener!

Do you have any info on rubbing Vit D on moles? I've read that that may help in making them disappear. There's another substance that some claim that it may help with mole treatment, neem oil, have you ever heard of it?

Do you have any sources where I could buy Vit D in bulk?Bio tech 50,000iu (https://secure.bio-tech-pharm.com/detail.aspx?product_id=20&cat_id=2&subcat_id=0) these are a dry powder in a gelatin capsule. It's easy to grip the capsule covers with your finger nails and slide the capsule apart. You can then empty the white powder into whatever base you want to carry it.
A food grade edible massage oil would be fine.

It would be interesting to hear how you get on.
Grassrootshealth.org offer $30 postal 25(OH)D testing (http://www.grassrootshealth.org/) it would also be interesting to know the extent to which massaging cholecalciferol into the skin affects 25(OH)D status over time. When taken orally is is generally advised to take only ONE x 50,000iu capsule a week. (average about 7000iu/daily) and 10,000iu/daily is regarded as a safe upper limit. However there are many in the Vitamin D thread who have regularly used significantly higher intakes that at without adverse events occurring.

If you PM Zuleikaa you may find she knows a source of liquid D3 as I seem to remember she injected it in the past. You may also consider vitamin d drops that are readily available.

I can find nothing in Pubmed that suggests that moles respond to directly applied Vitamin d3.

However, we know that people with higher vitamin d status have greater protection against skin cancer and a better prognosis if it is diagnosed so ensuring you maintain your status above/around 150nmol/l 60ng/ml seems sensible for everyone, irrespective of any particular, possilbe, perceived higher risk factor.

[amergin]

Bio tech 50,000iu (https://secure.bio-tech-pharm.com/detail.aspx?product_id=20&cat_id=2&subcat_id=0) these are a dry powder in a gelatin capsule.



I believe you said you've bought D3 from bio=pharm. I would like to get some 50,000 iu D3 and so far Bio Pharm is the only one I can find. Problem is it's in the USA, so there may be customs issues and charges getting it into EU.

Also the Biopharm site has very little info on shipping.
I've found many US sites ship via private courier rather than standard mail, and I much prefer the standard mail delivery and collection.

So I want to ask you how have you rate them?
Also is there anywhere in the UK or EU where I can get 50,000 tabs?

Ta A.

[Hutchinson]

I believe you said you've bought D3 from bio=pharm. I would like to get some 50,000 iu D3 and so far Bio Pharm is the only one I can find. Problem is it's in the USA, so there may be customs issues and charges getting it into EU.

Also the Biopharm site has very little info on shipping.
I've found many US sites ship via private courier rather than standard mail, and I much prefer the standard mail delivery and collection.

So I want to ask you how have you rate them?
Also is there anywhere in the UK or EU where I can get 50,000 tabs?

Ta A.Bio Tech Pharmacal are the only source I know of 50,000iu D3
I rate them very highly indeed. They are very effective and Dr Cannell of the Vitamin d council is happy to provide a link to them as a source of reliable D3.
I haven't had problems with customs from stuff from Bio Tech but that MAY because I don't order very often (you can work out how long 100 last if you only take one a week.) so maybe the last time I ordered the $<>£ conversion rate was a bit kinder.
If you do get caught it won't be the Tax it will be the exorbitant extortionate Post Office £8 handling charge to collect the £2 tax.

But even so they are going to work out cheaper than buying the highest strength D3 from the UK so I don't see we have any alternative.
Delivery charge for the 50,000iu= $5 so it isn't bad.

[amergin]

Well I said I was reluctant to deal with a US website, and my experience this morning is typical of why that is.
I registered with Bio Tech. It asked for my address, I entered it with Ireland as my country and the US State entry field dissappeared. So far so good.
But the "ZIP code" bar didn't disappear, despite Ireland not having a Zip code people.
I transmit and it comes back "zip code is mandatory" So I enter my postcode D8 and transmit, it accepts. I proceed onto checkout and credit card details etc.
Final step comes back "address doesn't match credit card address" Yes that's cause you schmucks forced me to enter a non-existent Zip code!

Not only that but my address is now Dublin, Ireland, AL. Yes folks according to Bio tech Ireland has now been moved to Alabama!!

Hey I wish, if I lived in Alabama I wouldn't be ordering D3 in April.

Now the good part, there's no obvious facility to manage account or update address details, so I log out and re-enter details taking care to get each step right, apart from the ZIP code impasse, which forces me again to re-enter my postcode.
This time it blocks me because the Email account is already on file.
I try again with a fresh email. All fine till I get to the same address mismatch with Credit card address. Same error.

As there is no obvious facility to manage account data such as address, close account, or request deletion of all data, I abandon any further attempts to do business with these people.
Don't get me wrong, many US sites are aware that the outside world exists, but this is not one of them.

[dancinbr]

Well I said I was reluctant to deal with a US website, and my experience this morning is typical of why that is.
I registered with Bio Tech. It asked for my address, I entered it with Ireland as my country and the US State entry field dissappeared. So far so good.
But the "ZIP code" bar didn't disappear, despite Ireland not having a Zip code people.
I transmit and it comes back "zip code is mandatory" So I enter my postcode D8 and transmit, it accepts. I proceed onto checkout and credit card details etc.
Final step comes back "address doesn't match credit card address" Yes that's cause you schmucks forced me to enter a non-existent Zip code!

Not only that but my address is now Dublin, Ireland, AL. Yes folks according to Bio tech Ireland has now been moved to Alabama!!

Hey I wish, if I lived in Alabama I wouldn't be ordering D3 in April.

Now the good part, there's no obvious facility to manage account or update address details, so I log out and re-enter details taking care to get each step right, apart from the ZIP code impasse, which forces me again to re-enter my postcode.
This time it blocks me because the Email account is already on file.
I try again with a fresh email. All fine till I get to the same address mismatch with Credit card address. Same error.

As there is no obvious facility to manage account data such as address, close account, or request deletion of all data, I abandon any further attempts to do business with these people.
Don't get me wrong, many US sites are aware that the outside world exists, but this is not one of them.

Wow that is awful.

Never thought about it.

Did you ever write to them about the issue and see if they would correct it?

Ralph

[dancinbr]

Curious, just how many tests do you have, and how frequently do you have them? Are you doing these on your own, independent of a medical professional, or does your doc order them?


Sorry I didn't get back on this one sooner.

I am always discussing various tests, deficiencies , etc.,, etc., with my Doctor.

He always will order them for me. He is very cooperative.

However, he does give me his "blood test" or "whatever test" speech.

We go back and forth on it, but he will order the test for me.

He states that so many times tests are being pushed to make the people who patented the tests rich.

Now there is a thought.

For example the Cardiac Catscan is becoming more prevalent and I believe some day will be the gold standard for cardiologists rather than the thallium stress test. My new cardiologist simply embraced the new test, but get this still wanted me to go through the thallium stress test since many hospitals in preparation for an operation still insist on it. But again, the thallium stress test is making people rich. How many are necessary. It only finds clogged arteries 70% and higher while the cardiac catscan will find any clog from the very beginning.

But back to my Doctor. He says so what does the test do for you? I tell him it is a benchmark so I can see where I am. He says what will you do different once you have the results of the test? You know you need to get the weight off and exercise more and that will make you much healthier.

Yes, I know but the tests are there to let me know how I am doing and to assure that my supplementations are appropriate (aka Vitamin D3) and that efforts I am making to slow down the progression of plaque are working as documented by test results. I change habits, but he gets me back to getting my weight off.

So, I have started a new weight loss program, completely structured and I ask him to monitor and he will.

:-)

A little off track, huh?

So yes I have a healthy dialogue with my Doctor.

Ralph

[Hutchinson]

Don't get me wrong, many US sites are aware that the outside world exists, but this is not one of them.You could always use the phone. If you phone when it's daytime in that part of the USA you get to speak to a really nice guy (a real person as opposed to a computer) who will take your order details without any problems.
I don't know if they work for Ireland by I use 18185 (http://www.18185.co.uk/index2.php) or 1899 (http://www.1899.com/rates.php) before I dial the USA NUMBER
and it's cheap enough not to worry about the cost.

I've just phoned Bio Tech to let them know about the problem about the website and they are aware of it. The guy said it's a real pain but they are waiting for some software to correct it.
In the meantime you could try emailing them or faxing instead if you don't want to can't use the cheap phone dialing numbers from Ireland.

[Nancy LC]

Ralph, it's so cool to read your story. It seems like your head is in such a different place now than it was a few months ago. Do you think so too? It seems like you're really focused and have a great plan now. I'm eagerly following your posts. :) I'm so glad you went to TrackYourPlaque.

[dancinbr]

Ralph, it's so cool to read your story. It seems like your head is in such a different place now than it was a few months ago. Do you think so too? It seems like you're really focused and have a great plan now. I'm eagerly following your posts. :) I'm so glad you went to TrackYourPlaque.

Nancy -

Thank you so much for the cheers.

I am getting on track (no pun intended).

The main issue for me is getting the weight off.

Even Dr. Davis said weight off, Vitamin D3 and Fish Oil.

I have added the D3 and fish oil, now to get the weight off.

Day 2 and doing OK with this new structure.

What I like about this new/old plan ( did it once before ) is that it is completely structured.

I am doing the IHMonline home program and I have my Doc monitoring me.

http://www.ihmonline.com/programs_hmrathome.aspx

The first time I did this was a complete medical fast shakes only.

Yes, there are carbs in this but they are spread out over the day and I am managing them quite well.

I only needed bolus insulin once after dinner last night and the reading wasn't all that bad at 112.

This morning my weight was already down, yes the water dump initially, and my FBG was 93.

I know as the weight comes off my doses of basil insulin will diminish, my blood pressure will come down, my cholesterol will drop and I will feel a whole lot better.

I am also walking my dogs everyday. The exception is when it is nasty out. So this means I get about 4-5 one mile walks in per week. I am starting to increase the distant to 2 miles; did that once last week. Soon two miles everyday. The dogs love it and it is great for me.

So, yes feeling a bit more chipper and starting to make progress on the real issue I have OBESITY!!

Ralph

[Hutchinson]

I am doing the IHMonline home program and I have my Doc monitoring me.Well I hope it goes well for you. I've had a very brief look at the website and as it appears to be following a low fat calorie controlled approach I am not convinced it will work as a long term solution.
Dr Dahlqvist's way of eating (http://blogg.passagen.se/dahlqvistannika/?anchor=my_lowcarb_dietary_programe_in) is suitable for diabetics and weight loss.

I found I lost weight at 2.25lbs a week when I followed it strictly and since achieving my target and relaxed a bit (red wine is my vice) I've not regained weight. For me a low carbohydrate higher fat (coconut oil) regime seems to be the answer.

I think Dr Davis means what he says about the dangers of wheat (http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Wheat). I'm not sure your plan is consistent with a wheat free way of life. I think if you really can't consider giving up wheat then you should have a look at Stephan's Whole Health Source (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/) and consider the ways traditional cultures dealt with grains to minimize the adverse consequences.

I think in the long run you will do best if you learn to prepare your own food from scratch rather than relying on commercially prepared foods.

[Nancy LC]

Medically supervised fasts... Well, they're a tool. But just a short term one. I think Ralph realizes that though. My Dad did one of them and he just went right back to his old way of eating right afterward and regained everything. Plus at his age, it just wasn't a good idea, he lost a lot of muscle.

But if you're like me and you've already learned the WOE but the weight isn't coming off then I think a high protein fast could be a good tool. I'm not really overweight enough to warrant doing that though.

[MizKitty]

Ralph, sounds like you have yourself back in the zone, ready to tackle your challenges. Achieving that mental state is 85% of the battle, I think. Good for you! and good luck!

[dancinbr]

This is definitely short term until I get my weight down and get it down quickly.

I haven't been able to knock it off.

Once I reach my goal around 210 or so, I will return to my modified version of Weight Watchers, using points and also keeping it low carb.

I needed the structure since I haven't been doing so well doing it on my own.

I believe this will get me into a proper frame of mind once the weight is off.

Yes, wheat free long term and definitely low carb long term.

I don't intend to follow this forever, but I will get my weight down and I needed a kick start of some sort and this is the way I am doing it.

The key about the program is I don't have to think. I simply will only have what is in the box literally and add fruits and veggies.

I am willing to compromise on the prepared foods and the extra carbs.

I think there is roughly about 150 carbs or so in this for the full day.

But, again I am finding my BG is staying in zone 80-120 and usually below 100 since the carbs are in fact spread across the day in about 5 or so mini meals.

I didn't need any bolus insulin at all yesterday. I also believe I will start seeing a reduction in my need for insulin soon since the weight is already coming off; thus taking some stress off the body.

It will be interesting to see just how much I can knock off in the first five weeks of the program. I am anticipating in excess of 20 pounds.

Thanks everyone for your comments and concern and cheers.

Ralph

[Nancy LC]

I think calorie restriction also lowers your need for insulin.

[dancinbr]

I think calorie restriction also lowers your need for insulin.

Nancy yes it does.

I am seeing that already.

I have had some lows with just my basal insulin.

So starting last night I cut 25% of my dosages.

I was doing 40 units of Levemir in the AM and PM.

Last night and moving forward today I am reducing that to 30 units and see how I progress with that.

I suspect as I continue to lose weight I will get off the basal insulin completely while maintaining a FBG under 100 in the AM and be able to keep my 2 hour post priandal readings under 120-140 and watch them settle back down to <100 during the day.

The structure is working.

Now that my wife sees how it is working she definitely can prepare similar entrees and portion controlled as well once I complete this 10 to 20 week effort.

I will take breaks in between while continuing to lose weight perhaps more slowly and adapt this to low carb no wheat approach.

When you look at this it does have wheat and rice etc but compared to the amount of veggies I am having those are low proportions.

This is a 1200-1600 calorie restricted program. Following the quideline as indicated places it more close to 1200 and that is what I will try to achieve each day.

I do add fruits and veggies if I need them. I believe any hunger issues that I have had will diminish as the days move forward.

It is good to have an empty stomach and get used to the feeling.

Ralph

[dancinbr]

OK.

I haven't updated my scale slide in awhile.

I am keeping track in my journal as well.

Now to put up my weight progress bar.

I haven't maintained it at all.

A couple of years back I managed to get down to 260 briefly and then back up.

After I found out I had T2 diabetes I managed to get down to 267 but then went back up to 277

Well I am on my weigh (get it) down again. I managed to get up to 287 at the beginning of this year.

I started this new program at 278 last Thursday, April 2, 2009.

It is work in progress. I am now 272.

I am going to report monthly to my Doctor as I have stated before so he can be my "cop". He will do the BP and weight thing.

I have also decreased my basal insulin from 40 units in the AM and PM down to 28 units in the AM and PM.

I am also not needing any bolus insulin at this time and I am keeping my BG levels between 80s to 120-130 or so.

I reduced my basal since I was starting to get lows in the 70s and a few in the 60s.

It was mentioned that reduced calories will reduce need for insulin as well as reduced weight. I believe it is the reduced calorie intake at this moment.

Second day doing 28 AM and PM. Morning FBG was 101. I am happy with that.

Lets see how it progresses.

Gee this entry belongs in my journal.

Copy and Paste time.

Ralph

[amergin]

You could always use the phone. If you phone when it's daytime in that part of the USA you get to speak to a really nice guy (a real person as opposed to a computer) who will take your order details without any problems.
I don't know if they work for Ireland by I use 18185 (http://www.18185.co.uk/index2.php) or 1899 (http://www.1899.com/rates.php) before I dial the USA NUMBER
and it's cheap enough not to worry about the cost.

I've just phoned Bio Tech to let them know about the problem about the website and they are aware of it. The guy said it's a real pain but they are waiting for some software to correct it.
In the meantime you could try emailing them or faxing instead if you don't want to can't use the cheap phone dialing numbers from Ireland.

Just to update on my dealings with Bio-Pharm, and thanks for your info and assistance Hutchinson.
I phoned on 4/4/09 and spoke to a rep who took my order.
(I asked could they send it by regular mail and they said no problem.
I mentioned this because the website had only given me the option to use a private courier to Ireland.)

I ordered three packs of 50,000iu X 100tabs ~ USD30 each.
Total cost was USD90 plus USD25 Post and Customs declaration.
Phone call cost EU 0.30 for 3 minute call.
The goods arrived at my door five days later.

I waited till I got the bill on my credit card to post this, to verify all was in order. Bill to me is EU89 total.
I should now be sorted for D3 until expiry date 1st Nov 2011. (Hopefully their website will be fixed by then!)

All's well that ends well. A.