taubes vs. bray (round 1)

[pbowers]

i may not be the most impartial observer, but from all appearances george bray just had his clock cleaned!

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/gary-taubes-responds-to-george-bray/

[rightnow]

Well it took him a lot less text to do it, than Bray expended in attempting to invalidate Taubes, that's for sure.

Since Bray is, as Taubes suggested, one of the two leading people who radically shifted obesity research away from the concepts it had for a century and toward the 'calorie' focus, it's no surprise that he'd feel compelled to write a 'review' longer than the average research paper, for an academic publication, yet phrase it in 'commercial' ways as a clear plan to better allow laymen to understand it as well, despite it wasn't published in a layman's media.

In short, if Taubes is correct, Bray has personally, hugely, contributed to leading the world not only down a road away from finding an answer, but possibly the road to hell for not only obesity but disease as well.

I can see this might kinda upset the fellow, for personal reasons as much as any other.

I notice one rather interesting thing about, so far, most of the alleged reviews or negative discussions I have seen about the Taubes book:

In order to critique it, they actually have to take some topic he addressed beautifully, and pretend he didn't address it at all. That way, they can argue something like thermodynamics and sound logical, when devoid of his explanation that would make them sound as illogical as they are when its taken in context.

In other words, only by basically lying about it, whether by accident or design, can they even have something that sounds worth saying in disagreement.

I think it speaks well for Gary's book, that factor. But it is a shame that many people read reviews and not books, because I suspect that most people, long indoctrinated in Bray's own perspective in the academic world, won't bother to read it after reading Bray's review.

[Nancy LC]

I haven't read the original letter nor the rebuttal, just Dr. Eades summary so far. But it sounds like Bray didn't absorb much of what he read. He says Taubes defies the law of thermodynamics, something he addresses in the book. He addresses cholesterol extensively. Almost everything he says wasn't addressed was. Did ya actually open the book Doc or is this the Alzheimer's flaring up?

[ReginaW]

Bray:

"If the thesis of GCBC is correct, then repeated injection of insulin produces massive obesity. Insulin injections do produce some weight gain but also produce a significant fall in glucose (hypoglycemia)...Although insulin is "necessary" for obesity, it is not "sufficient" and not driving the current epidemic of obesity."

Now that's a brilliant and stunning logical fallacy if ever I saw one.....apply an exogenous result to an endogenous process and simply call it a day.

[Nancy LC]

Definitely time for him to hang up the stethoscope, he has done enough damage for one lifetime.
Finally, I would like to identify one potential conflict of interest on Bray’s
part that he neglected to mention. In the 1970s, as I discuss in GCBC, the
hormonal/enzymatic regulation of fat tissue was deemed irrelevant to the cause,
cure and prevention of human obesity. I identify Bray as one of two individuals
most responsible for this dubious accomplishment, and “for effectively removing
the [century-old] concept of the fattening carbohydrate from the nutritional
canon...” (GCBC, pg. 417.) Thus Bray’s critique of GCBC may be as much a
defense of his own career as it is an unbiased assessment of the book. Readers
should be aware of this possibility.

[MandalayVA]

The best part of Taubes' response is the end, which I was going to copy but I see Nancy beat me to it. As the kids like to say, "oh snap!" :D

[Nancy LC]

I'm so excited this is happening though. Really good exposure for Taubes.

[KarenJ]

Bray:

"If the thesis of GCBC is correct, then repeated injection of insulin produces massive obesity. Insulin injections do produce some weight gain but also produce a significant fall in glucose (hypoglycemia)...Although insulin is "necessary" for obesity, it is not "sufficient" and not driving the current epidemic of obesity."

Now that's a brilliant and stunning logical fallacy if ever I saw one.....apply an exogenous result to an endogenous process and simply call it a day.

Right after I read Eades this morning, I flipped through GCBC for the relevant mentions of Bray. Page 417+ also has some choice material. ;)

That was some good coffee-time reading. I think Taubes handled his response quite well, considering the damage that Bray has done.

I can't get over how Bray says that Taubes didn't discuss HDL or LDL... I mean, sheesh!
There is only one way to put that- the man lied, publicly. Is there any other way to interpret that?

[Nancy LC]

There is only one way to put that- the man lied, publicly. Is there any other way to interpret that?
Or he's just got a brain like a sieve?

[HappyLC]

I'm so excited this is happening though. Really good exposure for Taubes.

But who's going to see it? This will never hit the mainstream media.

[gwynne2]

But who's going to see it? This will never hit the mainstream media.

Probably not, but the recent positive lowcarb research news that *has* been in the mainstream media lately may inspire a few more thinkers to dig deeper, and then find this kind of thing.

[lowcarbUgh]

Bray:

"If the thesis of GCBC is correct, then repeated injection of insulin produces massive obesity. Insulin injections do produce some weight gain but also produce a significant fall in glucose (hypoglycemia)...Although insulin is "necessary" for obesity, it is not "sufficient" and not driving the current epidemic of obesity."

Now that's a brilliant and stunning logical fallacy if ever I saw one.....apply an exogenous result to an endogenous process and simply call it a day.

Obesity in IDDM is extremely rare. Injecting Human insulin, molecularly identical to endogenous insulin, does not make you fat. Insulin resistance makes you fat and adding more insulin to an already abundant secretion could make you fatter. I can see that.

Bray seems irrelevant because the only book reivews that matter are those on Amazon.com. :lol:

I like Taubes a lot, but I don't find him entirely honest. You have to admit that the obesity epidemic is fueled by eating crap in the form of processed and fast food. Fifty years ago we didn't have an "epidemic" because we didn't eat so much crap. Yes, the anti-fat movement spurred by people such as Bray has resulted in processed food becoming HFC-laden, but people ought to know when they are eating crap. I don't think most people eating at Mickey Ds really think they are eating nutritious food. Everybody knows fried food and super-sized drinks are fattening. When Mom cooked 3 squares a day we just didn't get that fat. Now Mom zaps chicken nuggets and throws some fries in the deep fryer if she doesn't stop at KFC on the way home from work. She gets up in the morning and throws some poptarts in the toaster and gets the cereal out. There are definite lifestyle factors involved too. We have to take responsibility for our behavior.

[ruthla]

I can't get over how Bray says that Taubes didn't discuss HDL or LDL... I mean, sheesh!
There is only one way to put that- the man lied, publicly. Is there any other way to interpret that?It could also be interpreted that Bray didn't actually read Taube's book, yet felt competent to write a review of it anyway.

[ReginaW]

Obesity in IDDM is extremely rare. Injecting Human insulin, molecularly identical to endogenous insulin, does not make you fat. Insulin resistance makes you fat and adding more insulin to an already abundant secretion could make you fatter. I can see that.

We're not talking, nor was Bray talking, Type I diabetes. As a Type I, you inject too much insulin, you go hypo - if you don't correct, you risk death, simple as that.

Someone growing fatter each day, making excess insulin in an effort to compensate for their insulin resistance is not in the same ballpark - they're not going to go hypo, but are going to push the excess glucose into fat stores in an attempt to maintain blood glucose levels.

The two situations are not the same - and the two cannot be used interchangably to try and make a point about fat accumulation.

Bray is IMO dishonest in putting forth an arguement to say insulin doesn't much matter....and base that on exogenous insulin instead of endogenous insulin.

[lowcarbUgh]

I don't really see Bray's point about injecting insulin. The only possible point he could make is a type 2 diabetic injecting insulin to cover too much food. Type 1s can't do that very well because it creates ping-pong blood sugar and it's simply not worth it. Where he gets that injecting insulin does produce some weight gain is beyond me. People who don't need to inject insulin don't do it.

[Nancy LC]

But who's going to see it? This will never hit the mainstream media.
Doctors, researchers, students, professors... at least the ones trying to keep up with new stuff. :p

[ReginaW]

I don't really see Bray's point about injecting insulin. The only possible point he could make is a type 2 diabetic injecting insulin to cover too much food. Type 1s can't do that very well because it creates ping-pong blood sugar and it's simply not worth it. Where he gets that injecting insulin does produce some weight gain is beyond me. People who don't need to inject insulin don't do it.

You may want to read his arguements in context:


Review: Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/bray-review-of-gcbc.pdf); Obesity Reviews May 2008

[Angeline]

Bray seems irrelevant because the only book reivews that matter are those on Amazon.com. :lol:

I would disagree. Gary's goal was to influence the academia and hopefully provoke a few into rethinking their position.

Those people are not influenced by Amazon.com reviews, at least not over reviews published in "serious publication"

It could also be interpreted that Bray didn't actually read Taube's book, yet felt competent to write a review of it anyway.

I think that's obvious. In fact most people are guilty of doing the same thing. I myself have a tendency to rapidly scan an article and read the comments here. I'll only read an article if it's really interesting or the comments make me curious. Especially if the article appears to be more of the same.

This man probably picked up the book, read the section that mentioned him (someone told him obviously) and surely felt very angry at being so "attacked". He then skimmed the book, cherry picked a few things to quote and hammered out a reply which is mostly just reiteration of his own position.

And you know what? I actually haven't read his review lol, but I did read Gary's reponse.

[lowcarbUgh]

I would disagree. Gary's goal was to influence the academia and hopefully provoke a few into rethinking their position.

Those people are not influenced by Amazon.com reviews, at least not over reviews published in "serious publication"

Yeah, but no one who actually diets really cares. They are going to pay attention to the national news outlets when they report that low-carb and the Med diets are effective in weight loss and produce good lipid and A1c results. Very few people actually listen to their doctors on dieting. Not even diabetics who are prescribed diets.

I hadn't heard of Bray before I read Taubes, even after reading Atkins, Bernstein, Aggaston, Schwarzbein. Bray is on no one's radar. I think he is irrelevant other than to academics. I will read his entire review just to satisfy my curiosity, not that I really care what he has to say.

[chandbaby1]

calories in versus calorie expediture is all that counts really... we really are electrical circuits. :lol: .
/sarc

[Nancy LC]

Oh dear... you should read GCBC, Chand.

[Azlocarb]

I detect sarcasim in Candbaby1's post. Need to add the /sarc if it is in fact sarcasim.

[chandbaby1]

Oh dear... you should read GCBC, Chand.

Yup that will be the next book I will read. I Loved reading PPLP this week.
the Library I goto somehow are always out of GCBC. On the one hand I am happy that so many people are becoming carb conscious on the other hand it is never on the shelf I am thinking of getting a used copy.

I think any person will go out of the way to argue when they have some insecurity. I think that doctor has insecurity that his own hypothesis actually doesnt work. He knows it he wouldnt argue like this if he dint.

One of the greatest lessons of my own life has been to have the courage to accept when I am wrong and being very open to the fact that I can be wrong.

[lowcarbUgh]

Academics have a very hard time when their entire life's work is presented as spurious. :D

[Angeline]

Yeah, but no one who actually diets really cares. They are going to pay attention to the national news outlets when they report that low-carb and the Med diets are effective in weight loss and produce good lipid and A1c results. Very few people actually listen to their doctors on dieting. Not even diabetics who are prescribed diets.

I hadn't heard of Bray before I read Taubes, even after reading Atkins, Bernstein, Aggaston, Schwarzbein. Bray is on no one's radar. I think he is irrelevant other than to academics. I will read his entire review just to satisfy my curiosity, not that I really care what he has to say.

But he's not trying to influence people to diet. His book is not a diet book. It's a book written for the academia, health autorities and interested layman. That was his primary goal. So really amazon reviews are irrelevant. His greatest wish is for his research to sufficiently challenge enough people so that they start looking at obesity in a different light.

The public and what they choose to eat doesn't matter in the least bit. If that's what he wanted he would have written another diet book which would have been ignored like the rest. His initial article, What if it had been a big fa lie, sparked an entire "low-carb carb" with the general public, but generated a lot of criticism. Now years later the fad is gone, because the public has a short memory and low carb was actively discouraged by the authorities. It did promote a few studies so it wasn't all wasted. The book is an attempt to further this.

[lowcarbUgh]

I didn't think the review was that bad. It is academia, after all. Bray has to defend his position and everyone has to be aware of that. Even if Bray were correct, everyone knows that people can't stick to a low-fat, low-calorie diet and maintain weight loss. I think Taubes did himself a disservice by not paying more attention to lifestyle factors which do influence obesity. The combination of high-fat and carbs is lethal.

Bray rather prattled on and on about the 1st law of thermodynamics and everyone is aware of those findings. We've been hearing about them for years. And everyone knows that restricting fat does not make people skinny.

I think each of us has a ratio of fat/protein/carbs we need to eat to achieve our ideal weights. Bray almost started out on the right track in the beginning by talking about paleo man. Then he made an abrupt turn to calories in and calories out and became a boor. I don't think anyone would expect someone who helped write the McGovern Committee recommendations to do anything less.

[Nancy LC]

If Bray is so irrelevant to Obesity researchers then why did Obesity Reviews decide to publish his 13 page book review? Maybe he has some dirt on the editorial staff!

Oh yes, now I see Chand's scarcasm! I need to get more sleep I think.

[lowcarbUgh]

I didn't say he was irrelevant to obesity researchers. He is one of the obesity cognescenti. He is just irrelevant to everyone else. :)

[pbowers]

Everybody knows fried food and super-sized drinks are fattening. which fried foods are fattening? bacon? steak? hamburger? eggs?

[steve41]

Just think about Taubes' message....

Salt.... doesn't matter
Fiber... doesn't matter
Exercise for wt loss.... nope
Carbs... bad
Fat... good

Getting his message into the mainstream is going to be one tough slog.

[lowcarbUgh]

which fried foods are fattening? bacon? steak? hamburger? eggs?

If you eat them with a 64 ounce sugar drink, they are all going to be fattening. It is the combination of fried foods and carbs that is fattening.

[Wifezilla]

When Mom cooked 3 squares a day we just didn't get that fat.

My mom did cook for us. We didn't eat out that often. I sat down and did the math, and I was consuming a steady diet equivalent to 2 cups of sugar A DAY. This was all done with breads, rice, potatoes, corn, "whole grain" breakfast cereals and fruit.

[Wifezilla]

Bray argues that high-fat diets cause obesity, but in GCBC I note that we can find populations that achieve spectacular obesity eating very-low-fat diets – Sumo wrestlers, for instance, whose fattening diets are only 9–16% fat (4). One implication of the co-existence of malnutrition with obesity in impoverished populations – as reported in 1928 in reservation
Sioux (5), in the 1960s in Trinidad (on a diet of 21% fat) (6) and Chile (7), in the 1970s in Jamaica (8), and is now a common observation (9)– is that it's possible to develop obesity in cultures that are physically active by modern standards and that subsist on diets lacking significant
or 'excess' calories and certainly lacking what Bray calls 'tasty,
inexpensive food in large portion sizes'.

Hee hee hee...I love Gary Taubes :D

(Me thinks Bray brought a dull butter knife to a gun fight.)

[lowcarbUgh]

My mom did cook for us. We didn't eat out that often. I sat down and did the math, and I was consuming a steady diet equivalent to 2 cups of sugar A DAY. This was all done with breads, rice, potatoes, corn, "whole grain" breakfast cereals and fruit.

That's 400 carbs - a huge amount of food! 1600 calories just in carbs. That's astounding.

[steve41]

What's missing is that some individuals are metabolically capable of handling ultra hi carb/hi calorie diets without getting fat.

I seem to remember Taubes mentioning this in GCBC. He said that obesity professionals hate to bring 'metabolic body types' into the discussion because it gives their obese patients a perfect excuse to give up..... "I can't lose weight, I'm destined to be fat."
Sort of makes sense.

[Wifezilla]

Yeah. It blew my mind. I remember mom saying how much better juice was for us than Koolaid. She used to fresh squeeze orange juice for us. Plus we got fresh apple juice from Grandma's trees :p

[Dodger]

It seems that the big influence on what type of diet people try is which celebrity is doing it and 'looks great'.

[rightnow]

Well, moms plying their tots with orange and apple and grape juice seem to think they are doing them a favor. And I have a pretty lousy opinion of all the people I've seen putting Dr. Pepper in the sippy cups personally, but I'm not really sure it's too much worse than apple juice.

That reminds me that when I was 5 years old and my parents split, I temporarily lived with my dad, with his best friend and wife and their kids. They had those big aluminum cups then. Every morning we would have 2-3 huge glasses of apple juice while getting ready for school and breakfast. Every day after school we would have several, we'd have it with dinner, we'd have it up until bed. I'm not kidding, we each probably drank about 10-12 glasses -- the 20oz size -- of apple juice every day because this guy's wife really thought it was healthy.

I didn't happen to come into contact with apple juice again for years, just by chance. The next time I tried it I was in like 5th grade, and my entire body shuddered violently. I knew, somehow, that although I liked the taste, that my body was basically saying it was maxxed out for life on the stuff.

My kid loves it. One day many months ago when she kept begging me for apple juice, I looked at the label and told her she could either have the juice or a candy bar. She got the candy bar, as I hoped. It had half the sugar carbs. Go figure.

[glendarc]

I didn't read the whole of Bray's "review", but what I did read struck me as being more of a debate style rebuttal rather than an actual review. People who write reviews don't normally feel it necessary to inject their own point of view, and if they do, they don't last long as reviewers!

I have to confess that I still haven't read Taubes' book either, but I have the soft cover version on order to be delivered in September.

[ethang]

My kid loves it. One day many months ago when she kept begging me for apple juice, I looked at the label and told her she could either have the juice or a candy bar. She got the candy bar, as I hoped. It had half the sugar carbs. Go figure.


WOW! I would not have guessed that it was THAT bad - I mean, I know it is sugary but I never thought to compare it to a candy bar - that's awful!

And meanwhile parents keep packing their kids lunches with the stuff, often more than one but heaven forbid they give their kid a chocolate. People really need to look at the nutritional information instead of blindly going about accepting their old notions of what is "good" and what is "bad".

I think we generally stick to what we believe unless someone comes along to show us - blatantly that what we thought was true really isnt. We don't find reason to look for the truth about things in general, be it nutrition in food, value of calorie restricted diets ,etc because it just "feels" like a fact and if there is no doubt then the thought to look into it further never even occurs.

I think that if anything, this whole debate and the news on LC will generate the "doubt" needed to urge the general public to learn more about LC and not just blindly accept the "fat is bad" and "low cal" is good ideas.

[lowcarbUgh]

We once knew these things. What happened to the 4 oz juice glass?

[rightnow]

Hmmn, hadn't considered that. I always thought those were because juice was rare or expensive but maybe at some point in time, it was just considered way too much nearly-pure-sugar to be pouring into your body in the morning.

[MyJourney]

I remember drinking a half gallon of OJ like it was nothing. I have always been able to consume vast quantities of liquids and so things like oj or cranberry juice were just totally normal and what I considered to be healthy. I remember my father even suggested I eat cereal with oj instead of milk because it would be healthier.

That and juicing. My mother went through a carrot juice phase. She used to try and make me drink it by telling me how sweet it is. Fortunately I was never able to stomach it.

[lowcarbUgh]

Hmmn, hadn't considered that. I always thought those were because juice was rare or expensive but maybe at some point in time, it was just considered way too much nearly-pure-sugar to be pouring into your body in the morning.

In the 60s, juice was mostly frozen in concentrated form. Fortunately, I didn't like frozen OJ that much. In the fall, fresh cider was in the stores and I liked that pretty well. Coca-Cola came in 6 oz bottles and then in 10 oz bottles. Women of my mother's generation (she was born in 1927) knew that too much bread and sugar was bad for you. Consequently, we drank milk with our meals or sometimes tea.

When I received my "diabetic education" everything was in exchanges. 4 oz. of juice was a fruit exchange, along with an entire orange, apple, etc. I quickly realized that juice would raise my BG a lot faster than a serving of fruit, so I stayed away from it. I would rather eat a piece of fruit than drink 4 ounces of juice.

[aj_cohn]

I'm doing my part to expose Taubes to America. In today's "USA Today," there's an article on a new initiative to educate primary care physicians to treat pre-diabetes (metabolic syndrome), using diet and lifestyle changes as the first tools. I wrote a response to the article that stresses self-education, mentioning GCBC.

People are impressed by repetition, so go over to that article, and add your shameless plug for Taubes' book.

[aj_cohn]

We can do our part to expose Taubes' work to America. In today's "USA Today," there is an article about educating primary care physicians to treat pre-diabetes/metaboic syndrome, using diet and lifestyle changes as the first tools. I posted a comment that mentioned GCBC. If others repeat the recommendation, it might spur some people to read the book.

[steve41]

I recall an interview recently where someone pointed out that a generation or so ago, he and his compatriots were lucky to see one (count em-1) orange per year. In his Xmas stocking.

This fruit-centric society is a very recent phenomenum.

[kyrasdad]

I didn't think the review was that bad. It is academia, after all. Bray has to defend his position and everyone has to be aware of that.
Why does Bray "have" to defend his position. Shouldn't a real academic let new information affect his position? If he must defend it, he's not an academic, he is an idealogue.

[lowcarbUgh]

I recall an interview recently where someone pointed out that a generation or so ago, he and his compatriots were lucky to see one (count em-1) orange per year. In his Xmas stocking.

This fruit-centric society is a very recent phenomenum.

That's also what my mom said in relationship to oranges. In the country, people did eat fruits they grew and put up preserves. My grandmother had a basement full of peach preserves. My grandmother walked a lot too. :)

To minimize the glycemic impact of fresh, whole fruit, eat it with a fat and a protein with meals.

[ReginaW]

I recall an interview recently where someone pointed out that a generation or so ago, he and his compatriots were lucky to see one (count em-1) orange per year. In his Xmas stocking.

This fruit-centric society is a very recent phenomenum.

It really is....as a kid (I'm 42) we had an apple and an orange in our Christmas stocking every year too!

Fruit really was seasonal - during the summer we definitely ate fruits of all kinds, but come mid-fall - it was a rare treat....not only was it really expensive, it was hard to find fresh fruit that was worth buying.

At school we had canned fruits - but even that wasn't everyday.....LOL, half the time we were given jello as 'dessert' with lunch!

[lowcarbUgh]

Why does Bray "have" to defend his position. Shouldn't a real academic let new information affect his position? If he must defend it, he's not an academic, he is an idealogue.

I never met an academic who didn't defend their position like a lioness defending her cubs, particularly when there is prestige, money and chairs that go along with their publications. You wouldn't believe some of the arguments on the academic groups like sci.anthropology and specialized mailing lists.

[Wifezilla]

Yes I would. Hubby hangs out in Physics forums....for FUN! (What a weirdo! Good thing he is cute :p )

[Nancy LC]

It really is....as a kid (I'm 42) we had an apple and an orange in our Christmas stocking every year too!

Fruit really was seasonal - during the summer we definitely ate fruits of all kinds, but come mid-fall - it was a rare treat....not only was it really expensive, it was hard to find fresh fruit that was worth buying.

Orange season is winter! :) At least in CA it is. Gosh, your tales are amazing to a girl who was born in San Diego. What exactly is a season? :lol:

Apple season in my backyard is June. I hear it is fall in most places. :) We have to get special trees that don't require too many "chill hours". But my lovely Anna apples are my favorite apple now.

One thing that is neat about avocados is that you can get varieties that produce at vastly different times. So if you had enough land, you could eat avocados all year round.

[ReginaW]

Orange season is winter! :) At least in CA it is. Gosh, your tales are amazing to a girl who was born in San Diego. What exactly is a season? :lol:

Apple season in my backyard is June. I hear it is fall in most places. :) We have to get special trees that don't require too many "chill hours". But my lovely Anna apples are my favorite apple now.

One thing that is neat about avocados is that you can get varieties that produce at vastly different times. So if you had enough land, you could eat avocados all year round.

I grew up about an hour north of New York City in Westchester county....apples were definitely in the fall - we had two orchards in our town - and citrus was only from FL or CA - I'm sure it was probably year-round, but whenever it was in season, it was less expensive and that's when my mom would buy it.

I never even knew what an avocado was until I was an adult - LOL!

ETA: The town I grew up in - didn't have a grocery store, just a small market with basic staples that were outrageously priced....to buy groceries, it was a 20-to-30 minute drive to the grocery store.....with my dad commuting to NYC each day, and our having one car - grocery shopping was at most, a once a week deal....

[IslandGirl]

You want seasonal, trip on North of the border! Or think about Alaska...:lol:

:wave:

[IslandGirl]

...the fact that the metabolic products of fatty acids cannot be converted back to glucose put glucose in a very special position. We generally eat each day about as much carbohydrate as we can store. As storage capacity is limited, dietary carbohydrate must be metabolized. In contrast, the amount of fat we eat each day is well under 1% of the fat we have stored in our bodies, even those with a normal body weight. Thus, maintaining fat balance and carbohydrate balance is an integral part of the concept of energy balance that is at the heart of obesity.

EH?!?

...and yet this guy gets published in 3 days flat...the mind boggles, or it would if he made any coherent sense in a straightforward series of sentences...

...and is currently employed, no less, in what sounds like a high-faluting thinkers' establishment...
Pennington Biomedical Research Center,
Baton Rouge, LA, USA

I'm actually embarrassed for him, to publicly display such a lack of critical thinking, or at least justifiable sentence structure.

:o

[Turtle2003]

I looked up George Bray and here are some excerpts from an article about him. I think this explains a lot.

George Bray is a leading obesity researcher and is the former director of a CORE facility. He is also Director Emeritus of AOA. Bray has been described by author Ellen Ruppel Shell as a "tireless proselytizer for obesity drugs." A July 2005 Seattle Times article noted:

"A consultant for numerous drug companies for more than three decades, Bray holds patents for such things as low-fat potato chips, a cream to reduce fat thighs, and treatment for metabolic disorders."

Bray was a leading investigator of Roche's Xenical, along with Xavier Pi-Sunyer. The financial disclosure of one study on the drug's effects stated that Bray:

"...has received research grant support for the study of Orlistat from Hoffman-La Roche. He has also received research grants from Johnson & Johnson, Regeneron, Proctor and Gamble, and Novartis and has been a member of advisory boards and speaker bureaus for Johnson & Johnson and Takeda Pharmaceuticals."

These are companies that benefit from the notion that obesity is a disease, rather than an issue of personal responsibility—as do the companies that produced the weight-loss thigh cream he researched. Bray has come under fire for testifying on behalf of fen-phen makers at FDA advisory panel hearings and for being paid for court testimony on behalf of a company whose ephedra product his center researched.


http://www.obesitymyths.com/mythmaker1.4.cfm?id=6

[Wifezilla]

OOoohhhhhh.....so admitting Taubes is right means someone's income stream is going to be seriously impacted. Huh.

[lowcarbUgh]

OOoohhhhhh.....so admitting Taubes is right means someone's income stream is going to be seriously impacted. Huh.

Do you think he is going to announce that is he a pharmawhore and has published nonsense for 40 years? :D

He published nonsense before he was taking money from pharma. He wouldn't concede his point of view anyway.

Professionals who read these journals are going to know what is going on.

[rightnow]

I think that although one article, one book, one review rebuttal, etc. is not going to change the world, that Taubes has provided the best "wedge" into the establishment -- or the best wedgie FOR the establishment! -- that our people have had thus far. Anything that leads to more -- and better -- research is a good thing. It is slow going when you are trying to move a gigantic boulder like a bazillion entrenched industries (from science to drugs to food to psychiatric to you-name-it). But I think while slow, it will eventually -- if corporatism and government and vegan politics don't finally kill it once and for all, and I hope they can't -- gain some momentum and eventually get somewhere.

We might all be old (er), but I hope it will happen.

[Wifezilla]

pharmawhore

LOLOLOL.....I have a new word to add to my vocabulary. Can't wait to use it in a blog post :D