A question about ketosis/lack of ketosis

[rakbs]

Hi, everybody. :)

I've been reading around these forums for a while now, and was most interested in trying out a paleo diet; it's the diet that just makes the most sense to me.

Before getting into it, I wanted to work some more details out first. Are most paleo diets, ketogenic diets? I know that paleo diets allow fruit, but how much fruit do you guys on the diet eat usually? And about how many carbs in a day?

I guess my real question is, if you are eating a reduced-carb paleo diet of about 75 grams a day (high enough to be out of ketosis) , and you then proportionately raise the percentage of fat in your diet, then what does your body do? Does it burn the carbs, and store the fat? The other way around? Or does it manage to burn both of them? And if so, how does it burn fat without being in ketosis? And how does this translate into how paleolithic humans would have eaten?

I've been confused about this, and wanted to clear it up. Thanks in advance for any replies.

[kallyn]

I've been doing mostly paleo with between 50-80g/day for several years and I've lost 20 lbs and kept it off. I've never bothered to figure out if I'm in ketosis or not. What that carb count actually translates to is all the veggies I care to eat plus one or two servings of fruit.

[anyway...]

I think you'll get very different answers from everyone on this as everyone tends to do paleo their own way.

Personally, I usually average about 20 carbs, give or take, which probably puts me in ketosis but I hadn't really thought about it. Some days no fruit, but other days go somewhere between 0.5-1c strawberries. But I won't lose on 75g carbs. It actually makes me feel sick.

To me, its more important to raise my protein than my carbs... so I aim for about 102g protein and let the chips (erm.. I mean 'fat' :D ) fall where they may.

I'm thinking (and this is just IMO) if you are going to raise carbs that high, you'll probably need to pay more attention to creating a caloric deficit in order to lose. That way it's burning both the carbs and the fat. If I remember correctly, protein power allows up to 72 carbs (I think?) and I know Dr. Eades has written in both his PPLP book and on his blog about the necessity for a caloric deficit.

[Nancy LC]

If you're trying to lose weight then give the fruits and starchy veggies a miss, at least for awhile. There's no reason you can't be in ketosis and do paleo, just keep your carbs low.

[M Levac]

I eat an all meat zero carb high fat diet. I tell my butcher "don't trim". That would put anybody in ketosis in no time. But ketosis is not an on/off state, it's a continuum. The more carbs you eat, the less ketosis occurs. Still, fat is needed for proper ketosis so that would affect it too. A general rule, in my opinion, is zero carbs and a high fat diet brings ketosis quickest and deepest.

[rakbs]

If you're trying to lose weight then give the fruits and starchy veggies a miss, at least for awhile. There's no reason you can't be in ketosis and do paleo, just keep your carbs low.

I'm actually not trying to lose weight; but I do exercise frequently (cardio 3x a week and weightlifting 3x a week).

I guess I'm just worried that if I keep my carbs too high, I'll end up gaining weight even if the total calorie count is reasonable. 75 was just a random figure, though; I could easily drop down to 40. I probably won't be eating starchy vegetables but I do like fruit quite a lot. So I'm wondering what my "too high" is in terms of carbs.

What are your opinions about ketosis and exercising? Is it possible to sustain aerobic exercise and weightlifting on a 0 carb diet?

[M Levac]

What are your opinions about ketosis and exercising? Is it possible to sustain aerobic exercise and weightlifting on a 0 carb diet?

There is no reason to think we couldn't do on a low carb diet that we did on a high carb diet. If anything, aerobic functions would improve. So yes, it's possible to do the same and more.

[kallyn]

If I remember correctly, protein power allows up to 72 carbs (I think?) and I know Dr. Eades has written in both his PPLP book and on his blog about the necessity for a caloric deficit.

The 72g limit is actually from Dr. Lutz in Life Without Bread. It's what I call my plan since I'm not usually 100% paleo. :) I think Eades has a per meal limit rather than a per day limit (like 10-12g for a meal or 5-7g for a snack I think). Eades has blogged quite a bit recently about caloric deficit though.


I guess I'm just worried that if I keep my carbs too high, I'll end up gaining weight even if the total calorie count is reasonable.

Unfortunately, this is one of those very individualized things, so any advice we give you is going to be pretty academic. Some of us can lose on much higher carb allowances than others. Like I said earlier, I lost weight on 50-80g/day and I have kept it off for several years...eating close to your 75g figure has not caused me to put any weight back on and I don't even exercise. So it is possible - for me at least. No way to know if it's possible for you until you try. :)

[frankly]

There is no reason to think we couldn't do on a low carb diet that we did on a high carb diet. If anything, aerobic functions would improve. So yes, it's possible to do the same and more.

Absolutely, I think for a short time in the beginning when your body is first adjusting maybe not as much... but I find now I have way more endurance, strength and stamina than I ever did when I ate plants.

[kallyn]

It's definitely possible to do the same exercise on a ketogenic diet. See here: http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

[MeatGood]

This is what I suggest.
Eat Paleo for a couple of weeks, and let your body adjust.

After a week or so, the strong snacking cravings should fall off, and you should truly be able to determine when you are actually hungry and when you are not.

Then just follow your hunger.
If you are hungry, eat, if you are not then don’t eat.
If you feel you want more fruit one week, then eat more fruit, if you feel like having more meat the next, then do that. Your body should send you signals to tell you what you need and what you lack.

If you are concerned about gaining weight, buy a scale, that way you can double check what your body tells you. I have found that after I get past my processed food and sugar addiction phase and settle into eating paleo, then I notice that I can easily maintain weight without thinking about it.

As for exercising while being in Ketosis:
When I was in the process of losing weight, I would eat very little fruits and starchy vegetables. Which translates into very low carbs.
I would also run 6 miles a day, and had zero problems doing it. Actually it was easier to run that distance when I ate low carb, than when I ate a lot of carbs, because I never ran into the “wall” which is basically the point you switch over from burning carbs to burning fat.
Some people say though, if you are going to do an even that you would normally carb load for, instead of carb loading, do fat loading. I have never tried this on purpose, but I hear it works.

[anyway...]

The 72g limit is actually from Dr. Lutz in Life Without Bread.

Ah! Thank you :D I read LWB and PP at the same time, so now I can never remember who is who :lol:

[M Levac]

Some people say though, if you are going to do an even that you would normally carb load for, instead of carb loading, do fat loading. I have never tried this on purpose, but I hear it works.

That's not a bad idea. Since fat is twice as dense as carbs, it means either equal fuel for half the mass or twice the fuel for the same mass. Either way it's more advantageous than a carb load. It's especially better since there is no wall to hit at any time.

[alisbabe]

I

Personally, I usually average about 20 carbs, give or take, which probably puts me in ketosis but I hadn't really thought about it. Some days no fruit, but other days go somewhere between 0.5-1c strawberries. But I won't lose on 75g carbs. It actually makes me feel sick.


Same here - I try to stick to around 20g and my upper limit is 60g, or I get all kinds of symptoms and will also get derailed. I don't really count though, and I've never tried to find out if I'm in ketosis. The way I see it, if I'm losing whilst not feeling starved then I'm doing OK.

[rakbs]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.

I am no longer worried about being able to exercise while in ketosis, and I won't be trying to up my carbs in compensation.

I'm actually very tempted to try out an all-out carnivorous diet...the only plant foods that really appeal to me in the first place are bananas and tubers, the latter of which have to be cooked...most othe fruit or vegetables just taste acidic and/or over-fibrous to me.