B12 deficiency

[MeatGood]

I know someone that is suffering from most of the initial B12 deficiency symptoms.
They do eat meat and yogurt and other sources of B12, but for years have suffered from symptoms that are remarkably similar to B12 deficiency. So much so that the last time they were going to the doctors to get blood work, I asked them to get tested for low B12.
They later said they got their tests back and their blood work indicated that all levels of everything were normal.

So I really ponder, how accurate is this test for B12 anyways?
I have read that the initial symptoms of B12 deficiency show up before they show up on blood work.
I have also read that certain disorders can cause one not to absorb B12 from food properly.

I was going to suggest that they take a B-Complex supplement just for the heck of it and see if that helps improve some of the issues.

Anyone have knowledge and experience about B12 deficiency?

[chandbaby1]

sublingual B12 droplets are supposedly the best. I havent tried it.
Will let you know in a month i have a bottle.

[frankly]

...but for years have suffered from symptoms that are remarkably similar to B12 deficiency...

Not to play doctor on the internet, but what are their symptoms?

[Citruskiss]

The sublingual B-12 tablets work very well to help resolve any possible B-12 issues, and most of them don't contain any sugar.

Apparently there's also a difference in the type of B-12 as well, with the methylcobalamin supposedly being more easily utilized/absorbed. I found that any kind of the sublingual tablets worked well.

The pharmacist at Safeway was telling me the reason B-12 is sold separately is because it doesn't absorb so well, and he was the one who recommended a sublingual B-12 supplement as opposed to trying to get it from a B-complex type of supplement. He suggested taking both a b-complex, and a separate b-12 sublingual tablet.

Here's a link to a typical sublingual B-12 supplement (you can find this in stores as well):

http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12

[MeatGood]

I will check out the sublingual B-12 tablets.

To answer frankly's question:
The symptoms that appear to be B12 related to me are the following:

Lack of balance
Depression
Headaches (Migrains)
Hallucinations (But only after waking during the night) <-- so may not be related.

Other items that are not on the typical B12 list must I figure might be related:
Rapid mood swings (including irrational anger)
Inability to focus at times. (Appears to be the majority of the time.)
General spacyness. (sure its not the scientific term, but I think you understand what I mean.)


They also seem to be tired all the time, but that is probabily something totally different, like low Iron.


FYI - They are not a low carb eater, and actually eat a lot of junk food.

[Josiemk]

FYI - They are not a low carb eater, and actually eat a lot of junk food.

Carbs rob your body of B vitamins. I had a B vitamin deficiency when I was pregnant but I'm not sure if it was A B 12 or other B vitamin I was lacking. The corners of my lips were cracked , my tongue was cracked & my tongue was swollen. To this day I still can't eat spicy food & that was 2 years ago.

[Nancy LC]

You want the Methyl form of b-12, not the cyanocobalamin. You can actually get some b-12 deficiency symptoms just by being low on b12, not actually deficient. At least, one woman I know did. She had a lot of neurological issues.

One way to tell if you're low on B12 is a test called MCV. It measures the size of your red blood cells. If they're big it means you're either low on B12 or Folate.

Oh yes, you should also supplement folate at the same time you do B12 since one can mask the symptoms of the other.

[Citruskiss]

Some high-quality fish oil might help with those kinds of symptoms too.

I suggest Carlson's - at least four of their fish oil capsules, or two teaspoons of their "Very Finest" lemon flavoured liquid fish oil (equal in strength to prescription fish oil).

Definintely the B vitamins too.

[pennink]

http://www.bchealthguide.org/kbase/topic/mini/hw65706/overview.htm

If your vitamin B12 deficiency is mild, you may not have symptoms or you may not notice them. Some people may think they are just the result of growing older. As the anemia gets worse, you may:

Feel weak, tired, and light-headed.
Have pale skin.
Have a sore, red tongue or bleeding gums.
Feel sick to your stomach and lose weight.
Have diarrhea or constipation.
If the level of vitamin B12 stays low for a long time, it can damage your nerve cells. If this happens, you may have:

Numbness or tingling in your fingers and toes.
A poor sense of balance.
Depression.
Dementia, a loss of mental abilities.

I am a low carber and eat more meat and veg than most SAD eaters. I got sooooo low in B12 that I couldn't concentrate, they thought I had vertigo, I was pissed off and sad. No tongue thing though. It was frightening.

After two days on high dose B12 I was myself again. It's freakin' amazing.
It felt like a miracle.

[Nancy LC]

Some people are lacking in something you need to process B12 you eat.

[pennink]

pernicious (fun word) anemia.

They don't think that was my problem, but I suspect it.

[gfpaperdol]

The person that was not low in B12 should make sure that they get a copy of the test results, so they can see for themselves... & even if they do test okay - they should still take the B12 that Nancy suggested.

those symptoms could also be from a gluten problem which causes a B12 deficiency & low D & a few other things...

[vmay]

[QUOTE=pennink]
Those symptoms could be multiple sclerosis. I have seen a neurologist and have had some tests. No results yet. Some of the tests include B-12, folic acid, and thyroid.

[pennink]

Luckily for me it was b12.

As soon as I took them, they all disappeared. Anyone who's dieting, that's the first place to look.

[frankly]

...I am a low carber and eat more meat and veg than most SAD eaters. I got sooooo low in B12 that I couldn't concentr...

When you say meat, does that include beef?

[Nancy LC]

When you say meat, does that include beef?
When you have pernicious anemia you can eat B12 all day and it won't do you any good.

[frankly]

When you have pernicious anemia you can eat B12 all day and it won't do you any good.

Interesting, I wasn't familiar with it until now. Why is it any different for the supplements? Do they use a megadose? Does it have to be provided intravenously? I suppose I should read the thread more carefully or just google it. I'd always assumed, incorrectly I suppose, b12 deficiency was only a problem for the vegetable people.

[frankly]

Fascinating..: "...Dr. Addison first described the disease, from which it acquired the common name of Addison's Anemia. Dr. Newcastle found that he could regurgitate his own gastric juices and feed it to his patients, also causing disease improvement. However, this was not a sustainable practice. Pernicious anemia was a fatal disease before about the year 1920, when Whipple suggested raw liver as a treatment. After verification of Whipple's results in 1926, pernicious anemia victims ate or drank at least 1/2 a pound of raw liver, or drank raw liver juice every day. This continued for several years until a concentrate of liver juice became available after 1928.

The first workable treatment for pernicious anemia began with the work of George Whipple who made the discovery in the course of experiments in which he bled dogs to make them anemic, then fed them various foods to see which would make them recover most rapidly (Whipple was looking for treatments for anemia from bleeding, not pernicious anemia). Whipple discovered that ingesting large amounts of liver seemed to cure anemia from blood loss, and tried liver ingestion as a treatment for pernicious anemia, reporting improvement there also, in a paper in 1920. George Minot and William Murphy then set about to partly isolate the curative property in liver and showed that it was contained in raw liver juice (in the process also showing that ironically it was the iron in liver tissue, not the soluble factor in liver juice, which cured the anemia from bleeding in dogs; thus the discovery of the liver juice factor as a treatment for pernicious anemia, had been by coincidence). For the discovery of the cure of a previously fatal disease of unknown etiology the three men shared the 1934 Nobel Prize in Medicine.[10]

In 1928 chemist Edwin Cohn prepared a liver extract that was 50 to 100 times more potent than the natural food (liver). The extract could even be injected into muscle, which meant that patients no longer needed to eat large amounts of liver or juice. This reduced the cost of treatment considerably.

The active ingredient in liver was unknown until 1948, when it was isolated by two chemists, Karl A. Folkers of the United States and Alexander R. Todd of Great Britain. The substance was a cobalamin, which the discoverers named vitamin B-12. The new vitamin in liver juice was eventually completely purified and characterized in the 1950s, and other methods of producing it from bacteria were developed. It could be injected into muscle with even less irritation, making it possible to treat pernicious anemia with even more ease. Pernicious anemia was eventually treated with either vitamin B-12 injections, or else large oral doses of vitamin B-12, typically between 1 and 4 mg (1000 to 4000 mcg) daily." from the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernicious_anemia)

[pennink]

When you say meat, does that include beef?


there's OTHER meat? :lol:

[frankly]

there's OTHER meat? :lol:

:) well said.

[pennink]

oh, ya.... wings.

and ribs!!!


yes, I eat a ton of meat. Red, white, all of it.

they don't think mine is pernicious though, because it got caught up so quickly just taking regular otc supplements.

[Nancy LC]

Pernicious anemia (also known as Biermer's anaemia or Addison's anaemia or Addison-Biermer anaemia) is a form of megaloblastic anemia due to vitamin B-12 (vitamin B12) deficiency, caused by impaired absorption of vitamin B-12[1] due to the absence of intrinsic factor[2] in the setting of atrophic gastritis, and more specifically of loss of gastric parietal cells. While the term "pernicious anemia" is sometimes also incorrectly used to indicate megaloblastic anemia due to any cause of vitamin B-12 deficiency, its proper usage refers to that caused by atrophic gastritis and parietal cell loss only.

It is the most common result of adult vitamin B-12 deficiency.[3]

They usually give people with pernicious anemia shots or sublingual B12 because they lack the intrinsic factor needed to absorb it with digestion.

Intrinsic factor is a glycoprotein produced by the parietal cells of the stomach. It is necessary for the absorption of vitamin B12 later on in the terminal ileum.

All from wikipedia if you want to read it.

[frankly]

Yes, thanks Nancy, I'd forgotten to post the parts of the wiki that specifically addressed my own questions, when I posted that chunk from it earlier. It's really is fascinating though, I know some of the old-school trainers would swear by dessicated liver capsules; especially Vince Gironda... and it seemed kind of hokey to me - now I wonder if there isn't something to it. The bit about dogs being bled out and then treated with liver is also interesting. A friend of mine told me that where he was from in Italy, women who had just given birth would eat fresh, raw calves liver. Anyway, I've had some minor reservations about liver, because of the carbs, but now I'm somewhat reassured by what a powerful restorative food it is.

[pennink]

ya, BUT...

organ meats contain more toxins than anything you can eat.

just sayin'

[Nancy LC]

I'd probably only eat calves liver and try to get it organic.

It is weird that anemia can be caused by so many different things but there are really several different types: Lack of iron, lack of B12, lack of folate.

[deirdra]

I wonder why/how Dr. Newcastle found that he could regurgitate his own gastric juices and feed it to his patients to treat their Addison's Anemia.

[capmikee]

I'd probably only eat calves liver and try to get it organic.
Better to get grass-fed if you can. Organic just means the cows in the factory farm get organic corn and soy, not a great diet for cows. And since they can't give them hormones or antibiotics, and they're still living in overcrowded conditions, they're likely to be sick.

It's ironic, all the best foods, fish, bones, organ meats, tend to concentrate toxins. I'm working on the principle that they also help you detoxify, maybe it's just a fairy tale but I'm sticking with it. I eat clay to detoxify too.

Does anyone know how to replenish the intrinsic factor? I can't seem to find out how to do it. Does liver help? I eat liver at least once a week, also raw meat at least once a week, and I still have a lot of B12 deficiency symptoms.

[Nancy LC]

I think it might be an autoimmune condition.

The solution is you can get B12 with intrinsic factor or bypass digestion altogether and take it sublingually or in shots. I recommend using methylcobalamin not the other sort, it has to be converted.

[capmikee]

I think it might be an autoimmune condition.

Tell me about it! No gluten, no casein, no yeast, no caffeine, no nightshades, no beans, no nuts. Yes, it's an autoimmune condition. My body hates me.

[Nancy LC]

LOL! You sound like me, except I seem to handle caffeine and nightshades ok. Nuts and seeds... no way!

[capmikee]

LOL! You sound like me, except I seem to handle caffeine and nightshades ok. Nuts and seeds... no way!
Well, I cheat on the nightshades sometimes without horrible consequences, and I'm experimenting with macademia nuts. But caffeine gives me carb cravings.

[PlaneCrazy]

Well, I cheat on the nightshades sometimes without horrible consequences, and I'm experimenting with macademia nuts. But caffeine gives me carb cravings.

Some people, especially post-menopausal women, get strong insulin reactions to caffeine. Ingesting it will cause a significant insulin spike, which is what probably causes the carb cravings. Dr. Westman is not sure of the cause, but his clinical observations of the phenomenon are many, and consistent. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have that reaction and seem to drink caffeine without a noticeable reaction.

Plane

[Nancy LC]

It doesn't cause carb cravings in me but I suspect it changes my glucose or insulin or both, just from the readings I get on the meter. I'm trying to rachet down again. *sigh*