Evolution of laughter and humor

[bafahall]

Humor research has been handicapped by the lines of approached
applide by thinkers from antiquity to the present day. The
main one being, using the word "humor" on a neurological level
when it is merely a construct that has a vague, general
meaning only applicable in cultural intercourse.

I have posted an essay on a Google Page: Laughing and crying
as displacement activities: the implications for humor theory.

Go to the site below, scroll down until you see the elephant
and blind men, and click on "A new theory of humor".

http://www.humorlinks.com/cgi-bin/sites/page.cgi?g=Academic%2-
Findex.html&d=1&imp=yes

I have attempted to show that viewing laughter as a
displacement activity (defined in the essay) and explaining
why it is confusing to use the term humor in certain contexts,
answers the major problems encountered by humor researchers.

I think you will enjoy the read.

Basil

[Caldervang]

On Apr 15, 7:54=A0pm, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> Humor research has been handicapped by the lines of
> approached applide by thinkers from antiquity to the present
> day. The main one being, using the word "humor" on a
> neurological level when it is merely a construct that has a
> vague, general meaning only applicable in cultural
> intercourse.
>
> I have posted an essay on a Google Page: Laughing and
> crying as displacement activities: the implications for
> humor theory.
>
> Go to the site below, scroll down until you see the elephant
> and blind men, and click on "A new theory of humor".
>
> http://www.humorlinks.com/cgi-bin/sites/page.cgi?g=3DAcadem-
> ic%2Findex.h...=

>
> I have attempted to show that viewing laughter as a
> displacement activity (defined in the essay) and explaining
> why it is confusing to use the term humor in certain
> contexts, answers the major problems encountered by humor
> researchers.
>
> I think you will enjoy the read.
>
> Basil

Overall an interesting "speculative essay"... nice read...
although I haven't finished it yet.

a couple of points that may be relevant in this ng: --there is
no evidence one way or the other that ancients hominids had an
"alpha male." The structure of that society is unknown, and is
the subject of continuing debate. -- not many PA people
"believe" in a straight-up savanna existence. The current
thinking places our ancestors into a "mosaic." Again, this is
the sunject of a great deal of debate and on-going research.
-- I work with one year olds everyday, and I can say that they
do indeed have language and a sense of humor. (so, it isn't
something that takes "years" to development... merely an
editorial correction there). Sure, it isn't an adult-type
sense of humor, but it exists and is very active.

I like your comparison to bonobos, in that they use sex as a
stress reducer (displacement) in the same way, perhaps, that
we use laughter. Some would argue that WE use sex as a
displacement! <smile>

regards calder

[bafahall]

On Apr 16, 1:31=A0pm, "caldervang...@gmail.com"
<caldervang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 7:54=A0pm, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:

> > Humor research has been handicapped by the lines of
> > approached applide by thinkers from antiquity to the
> > present day. The main one being, using the word "humor" on
> > a neurological level when it is merely a construct that
> > has a vague, general meaning only applicable in cultural
> > intercourse.

> > I have posted an essay on a Google Page: Laughing and
> > crying as displacement activities: the implications for
> > humor theory.
>
> > Go to the site below, scroll down until you see the
> > elephant and blind men, and click on "A new theory of
> > humor".
>
> >http://www.humorlinks.com/cgi-bin/sites/page.cgi?g=3DAcade-
> >mic%2Findex.h..=
.
>
> > I have attempted to show that viewing laughter as a
> > displacement activity (defined in the essay) and
> > explaining why it is confusing to use the term humor in
> > certain contexts, answers the major problems encountered
> > by humor researchers.
>
> > I think you will enjoy the read.
>
> > Basil
>

> Overall an interesting "speculative essay"... nice read...
> although I haven't finished it yet.
>
> a couple of points that may be relevant in this ng: --there
> is no evidence one way or the other that ancients hominids
> had an "alpha male." =A0The structure of that society is
> unknown, and is the subject of continuing debate.

Calder, the fact that most ground living primates (if not all
) do have an alpha male at the head of the troop and we have
had chiefs and kings (with the odd queen) during recorded
history makes an alpha male the most probable. Anyway, the sex
of the leader does not affect the basic thesis.

> -- not many PA people "believe" in a straight-up savanna
> existence. The current thinking places our ancestors into a
> "mosaic." =A0Again, this is the sunject of a great deal of
> debate and on-going research.

Again, this does not affect my basic thesis. Some of our
ancestors obviously did leave the forests and a single leader,
be it male or female, makes sense. In the forest where the
escape route is the nearest tree for each individual a single
leader is not essential, but out in open country the situation
of a single leader would be the most efficient and effective.

> -- I work with one year olds everyday, and I can say that
> they do indeed have language and a sense of humor. =A0(so,
> it isn't something that takes "years" to development...
> merely an editorial correction there). =A0Sure, it isn't an
> adult-type sense of humor, but it exists and is very active.

Calder, you have lost me here. I cannot recall saying that
children do not participate in actvities, be they physical or
verbal, of a humorous nature. In fact they laugh during the
"peeka-boo" game very early on in their development.

>
> I like your comparison to bonobos, in that they use sex as a
> stress reducer (displacement) in the same way, perhaps, that
> we use laughter. =A0Some would argue that WE use sex as a
> displacement! <smile>

Yep, and just an aside here, we might also view language
itself as a displacement behaviour as we can use negotiations
instead of violence and, of course, there is the old Catholic
confessional and
psychiatrists' couch.

Cheers

Basil

>
> regards calder- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Caldervang]

On Apr 16, 1:34=A0am, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> On Apr 16, 1:31=A0pm, "caldervang...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <caldervang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 15, 7:54=A0pm, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> > > Humor research has been handicapped by the lines of
> > > approached applide=

> > > by thinkers from antiquity to the present day. The main
> > > one being, using the word "humor" on a neurological
> > > level when it is merely a construct that has a vague,
> > > general meaning only applicable in cultural intercourse.
> > > I have posted an essay on a Google Page: Laughing and
> > > crying as displacement activities: the implications for
> > > humor theory.
>
> > > Go to the site below, scroll down until you see the
> > > elephant and blind=

> > > men, and click on "A new theory of humor".
>
> > >http://www.humorlinks.com/cgi-bin/sites/page.cgi?g=3DAca-
> > >demic%2Findex.h=
...
>
> > > I have attempted to show that viewing laughter as a
> > > displacement activity (defined in the essay) and
> > > explaining why it is confusing to use the term humor in
> > > certain contexts, answers the major problems encountered
> > > by humor researchers.
>
> > > I think you will enjoy the read.
>
> > > Basil
>
> > Overall an interesting "speculative essay"... nice read...
> > although I haven't finished it yet.
>
> > a couple of points that may be relevant in this ng:
> > --there is no evidence one way or the other that ancients
> > hominids had an "alpha male." =A0The structure of that
> > society is unknown, and is the=

> > subject of continuing debate.
>
> Calder, the fact that most ground living primates (if
> not all ) do have an alpha male at the head of the troop
> and we have had chiefs and kings (with the odd queen)
> during recorded history makes an alpha male the most
> probable. Anyway, the sex of the leader does not affect
> the basic thesis.
>
> > -- not many PA people "believe" in a straight-up savanna
> > existence. The current thinking places our ancestors into
> > a "mosaic." =A0Again, this is the sunject of a great deal
> > of debate and on-going research.
>
> Again, this does not affect my basic thesis. Some of our
> ancestors obviously did leave the forests and a single
> leader, be it male or female, makes sense. In the forest
> where the escape route is the nearest tree for each
> individual a single leader is not essential, but out in open
> country the situation of a single leader would be the most
> efficient and effective.
>
> > -- I work with one year olds everyday, and I can say that
> > they do indeed have language and a sense of humor. =A0(so,
> > it isn't something that takes "years" to development...
> > merely an editorial correction there). =A0Sure, it isn't
> > an adult-type sense of humor, but it exists and is very
> > active.
>
> Calder, you have lost me here. I cannot recall saying that
> children do not participate in actvities, be they physical
> or verbal, of a humorous nature. In fact they laugh during
> the "peeka-boo" game very early on in their development.
>
>
>
> > I like your comparison to bonobos, in that they use sex as
> > a stress reducer (displacement) in the same way, perhaps,
> > that we use laughter. =A0Some would argue that WE use sex
> > as a displacement! <smile>
>
> Yep, and just an aside here, we might also view language
> itself as a displacement behaviour as we can use
> negotiations instead of violence and, of course, there is
> the old Catholic confessional and
> psychiatrists' couch.
>
> Cheers
>
> Basil
>
>

Just for kicks, here is a little brief synopsis of primate
social organization, which hasn't been posted on sap
(sci.anthropology.paleo) in a while:

http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobosexsoc.html

Social Organization among Various Primates

BONOBO Bonobo communities are peace-loving and generally
egalitarian. The strongest social bonds are those among
females, although females also bond with males. The status of
a male depends on the position of his mother, to whom he
remains closely bonded for her entire life.

CHIMPANZEE In chimpanzee groups the strongest bonds are
established between the males in order to hunt and to protect
their shared territory. The females live in overlapping home
ranges within this territory but are not strongly bonded to
other females or to any one male.

GIBBON Gibbons establish monogamous, egalitarian relations,
and one couple will maintain a territory to the exclusion of
other pairs.

HUMAN Human society is the most diverse among the primates.
Males unite for cooperative ventures, whereas females also
bond with those of their own sex. Monogamy, polygamy and
polyandry are all in evidence.

GORILLA The social organization of gorillas provides a clear
example of polygamy. Usually a single male maintains a range
for his family unit, which contains several females. The
strongest bonds are those between the male and his females.

ORANGUTAN Orangutans live solitary lives with little bonding
in evidence. Male orangutans are intolerant of one another. In
his prime, a single male establishes a large territory, within
which live several females. Each female has her own, separate
home range.

--FRANS B. M. de WAAL was trained as an ethologist in the
European tradition, receiving his Ph.D. from the University of
Utrecht in 1977. After a six-year study of the chimpanzee
colony at the Arnhem Zoo, he moved to the U.S. in 1981 to work
on other primate species, including bonobos. He is now a
research professor at the Yerkes Regional Primate Research
Center in Atlanta and professor of psychology at Emory
University.

[Caldervang]

On Apr 16, 1:34=A0am, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> On Apr 16, 1:31=A0pm, "caldervang...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <caldervang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 15, 7:54=A0pm, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> > > Humor research has been handicapped by the lines of
> > > approached applide=

> > > by thinkers from antiquity to the present day. The main
> > > one being, using the word "humor" on a neurological
> > > level when it is merely a construct that has a vague,
> > > general meaning only applicable in cultural intercourse.
> > > I have posted an essay on a Google Page: Laughing and
> > > crying as displacement activities: the implications for
> > > humor theory.
>
> > > Go to the site below, scroll down until you see the
> > > elephant and blind=

> > > men, and click on "A new theory of humor".
>
> > >http://www.humorlinks.com/cgi-bin/sites/page.cgi?g=3DAca-
> > >demic%2Findex.h=
...
>
> > > I have attempted to show that viewing laughter as a
> > > displacement activity (defined in the essay) and
> > > explaining why it is confusing to use the term humor in
> > > certain contexts, answers the major problems encountered
> > > by humor researchers.
>
> > > I think you will enjoy the read.
>
> > > Basil
>
> > Overall an interesting "speculative essay"... nice read...
> > although I haven't finished it yet.
>
> > a couple of points that may be relevant in this ng:
> > --there is no evidence one way or the other that ancients
> > hominids had an "alpha male." =A0The structure of that
> > society is unknown, and is the=

> > subject of continuing debate.
>
> Calder, the fact that most ground living primates (if
> not all ) do have an alpha male at the head of the troop
> and we have had chiefs and kings (with the odd queen)
> during recorded history makes an alpha male the most
> probable. Anyway, the sex of the leader does not affect
> the basic thesis.

While I don't disagree, I am making the point that some
writers don't admit to humans as having an alpha male
structure. Furthermore, in the distant future, perhaps the
structure of our society will be so different as to make an
"alpha male" concept unrecognizable. It is my "belief" (and
that is all it can be, a belief) that one day ... ten...
twenty... thirty thousand years into the future, we will live
in peace on this planet and other planets too. I could almost
argue that the current time we live in is crucial to our
existence as a species, and that if we don't figure out how to
settle territorial, religious and cultural disputes, then our
existence as a species is imperiled. we must soon figure out
how to live in peace. Most writers on this newsgroup will say
I am full of bs for even saying this, and that we are destined
to always be warlike. It is very likely that our species HAS
been warlike since its appearance on the planet some 200 kya
ago. We (meaning science or the current data set from our
distant past) does not know the social structure of previous
species in our lineage. Furthermore, we cannot know if that
structure, whatever it may have been, contributed to the
extinction of that species.

Maybe homo erectus had no sense of humor, so they couldn;t
cope and went extinct! <smile>

>
> > -- not many PA people "believe" in a straight-up savanna
> > existence. The current thinking places our ancestors into
> > a "mosaic." =A0Again, this is the sunject of a great deal
> > of debate and on-going research.
>
> Again, this does not affect my basic thesis. Some of our
> ancestors obviously did leave the forests and a single
> leader, be it male or female, makes sense. In the forest
> where the escape route is the nearest tree for each
> individual a single leader is not essential, but out in open
> country the situation of a single leader would be the most
> efficient and effective.

okay. I agree that it doesn't affect your basic thesis. But
purely for discussion, natural selection might argue that that
single leader only survived "out there" because he or she
could run faster, and not necessarily because of a better
equipped social displacement. He wasn't a leader... he was the
least cooperative and ran away at the very moment when the
weakest members needed him/her most.

Having said that, it isn't really my personal belief. Crying
perhaps is a good indicator of how we evolved... or the
situations in which we found our selves. It is my belief that
humans, or some earlier versions of humans, evolved in
relatively safety. How is a new mom suppose to hide her
screaming baby from a hungry predator with sharp hearing? This
sort of indicates that we "had it easy" at various points in
our evolution.

>
> > -- I work with one year olds everyday, and I can say that
> > they do indeed have language and a sense of humor. =A0(so,
> > it isn't something that takes "years" to development...
> > merely an editorial correction there). =A0Sure, it isn't
> > an adult-type sense of humor, but it exists and is very
> > active.
>
> Calder, you have lost me here. I cannot recall saying that
> children do not participate in actvities, be they physical
> or verbal, of a humorous nature. In fact they laugh during
> the "peeka-boo" game very early on in their development.

oops.. my boo-boo... I misread this sentence:

"As children initially lack language, and for many years the
ability to act as free agents, the communicative aspect of the
displacement activity is particularly important at this stage
of our development." to mean that children don't have a sense
of humor early on...

>
>
>
> > I like your comparison to bonobos, in that they use sex as
> > a stress reducer (displacement) in the same way, perhaps,
> > that we use laughter. =A0Some would argue that WE use sex
> > as a displacement! <smile>
>
> Yep, and just an aside here, we might also view language
> itself as a displacement behaviour as we can use
> negotiations instead of violence and, of course, there is
> the old Catholic confessional and
> psychiatrists' couch.
>
> Cheers
>
> Basil
>

<yes... grin> regards calder

[Caldervang]

On Apr 16, 1:34=A0am, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> On Apr 16, 1:31=A0pm, "caldervang...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <caldervang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 15, 7:54=A0pm, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> > > Humor research has been handicapped by the lines of
> > > approached applide=

> > > by thinkers from antiquity to the present day. The main
> > > one being, using the word "humor" on a neurological
> > > level when it is merely a construct that has a vague,
> > > general meaning only applicable in cultural intercourse.
> > > I have posted an essay on a Google Page: Laughing and
> > > crying as displacement activities: the implications for
> > > humor theory.
>
> > > Go to the site below, scroll down until you see the
> > > elephant and blind=

> > > men, and click on "A new theory of humor".
>
> > >http://www.humorlinks.com/cgi-bin/sites/page.cgi?g=3DAca-
> > >demic%2Findex.h=
...
>
> > > I have attempted to show that viewing laughter as a
> > > displacement activity (defined in the essay) and
> > > explaining why it is confusing to use the term humor in
> > > certain contexts, answers the major problems encountered
> > > by humor researchers.
>
> > > I think you will enjoy the read.
>
> > > Basil
>
> > Overall an interesting "speculative essay"... nice read...
> > although I haven't finished it yet.
>
> > a couple of points that may be relevant in this ng:
> > --there is no evidence one way or the other that ancients
> > hominids had an "alpha male." =A0The structure of that
> > society is unknown, and is the=

> > subject of continuing debate.
>
> Calder, the fact that most ground living primates (if
> not all ) do have an alpha male at the head of the troop
> and we have had chiefs and kings (with the odd queen)
> during recorded history makes an alpha male the most
> probable. Anyway, the sex of the leader does not affect
> the basic thesis.
>
> > -- not many PA people "believe" in a straight-up savanna
> > existence. The current thinking places our ancestors into
> > a "mosaic." =A0Again, this is the sunject of a great deal
> > of debate and on-going research.
>
> Again, this does not affect my basic thesis. Some of our
> ancestors obviously did leave the forests and a single
> leader, be it male or female, makes sense. In the forest
> where the escape route is the nearest tree for each
> individual a single leader is not essential, but out in open
> country the situation of a single leader would be the most
> efficient and effective.
>
> > -- I work with one year olds everyday, and I can say that
> > they do indeed have language and a sense of humor. =A0(so,
> > it isn't something that takes "years" to development...
> > merely an editorial correction there). =A0Sure, it isn't
> > an adult-type sense of humor, but it exists and is very
> > active.
>
> Calder, you have lost me here. I cannot recall saying that
> children do not participate in actvities, be they physical
> or verbal, of a humorous nature. In fact they laugh during
> the "peeka-boo" game very early on in their development.
>
>
>
> > I like your comparison to bonobos, in that they use sex as
> > a stress reducer (displacement) in the same way, perhaps,
> > that we use laughter. =A0Some would argue that WE use sex
> > as a displacement! <smile>
>
> Yep, and just an aside here, we might also view language
> itself as a displacement behaviour as we can use
> negotiations instead of violence and, of course, there is
> the old Catholic confessional and
> psychiatrists' couch.
>
> Cheers
>
> Basil
>
>
>
>
>
> > regards calder- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I wrote a long reply, but it seems to have gotten lost in
cyberspace, and I don't rem what i said now! warmest calder

[Basil]

On Apr 18, 1:17=A0pm, "caldervang...@gmail.com"
<caldervang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 1:34=A0am, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 1:31=A0pm, "caldervang...@gmail.com"
>
> > <caldervang...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 7:54=A0pm, bafah...@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> > > > Humor research has been handicapped by the lines of
> > > > approached appli=
de
> > > > by thinkers from antiquity to the present day. The
> > > > main one being, using the word "humor" on a
> > > > neurological level when it is merely a construct that
> > > > has a vague, general meaning only applicable in
> > > > cultural intercourse. I have posted an essay on a
> > > > Google Page: Laughing and crying as displacement
> > > > activities: the implications for humor theory.
>
> > > > Go to the site below, scroll down until you see the
> > > > elephant and bli=
nd
> > > > men, and click on "A new theory of humor".
>
> > > >http://www.humorlinks.com/cgi-bin/sites/page.cgi?g=3DA-
> > > >cademic%2Findex=
.h...
>
> > > > I have attempted to show that viewing laughter as a
> > > > displacement activity (defined in the essay) and
> > > > explaining why it is confusing t=
o
> > > > use the term humor in certain contexts, answers the
> > > > major problems encountered by humor researchers.
>
> > > > I think you will enjoy the read.
>
> > > > Basil
>
> > > Overall an interesting "speculative essay"... nice
> > > read... although I haven't finished it yet.
>
> > > a couple of points that may be relevant in this ng:
> > > --there is no evidence one way or the other that
> > > ancients hominids had=

> > > an "alpha male." =A0The structure of that society is
> > > unknown, and is t=
he
> > > subject of continuing debate.
>
> > Calder, the fact that most ground living primates (if not
> > all ) do have an alpha male at the head of the troop and
> > we have had chiefs and kings (with the odd queen) during
> > recorded history makes an alpha male the most probable.
> > Anyway, the sex of the leader does not affect the basic
> > thesis.
>
> While I don't disagree, I am making the point that some
> writers don't admit to humans as having an alpha male
> structure. =A0Furthermore, in the distant future, perhaps
> the structure of our society will be so different as to make
> an "alpha male" concept unrecognizable. =A0It is my "belief"
> (and that is all it can be, a belief) that one day ...
> ten... twenty... thirty thousand years into the future, we
> will live in peace on this planet and other planets too.
> =A0I could almost argue that the current time we live in is
> crucial to our existence as a species, and that if we don't
> figure out how to settle territorial, religious and cultural
> disputes, then our existence as a species is imperiled.
> =A0we must soon figure out how to live in peace. =A0Most
> writers on this newsgroup will say I am full of bs for even
> saying this, and that we are destined to always be warlike.
> =A0It is very likely that our species HAS been warlike since
> its appearance on the planet some 200 kya ago. We (meaning
> science or the current data set from our distant past) does
> not know the social structure of previous species in our
> lineage. =A0Furthermore, we cannot know if that structure,
> whatever it may have been, contributed to the extinction of
> that species.
>
> Maybe homo erectus had no sense of humor, so they couldn;t
> cope and went extinct! =A0<smile>
>
>
>
> > > -- not many PA people "believe" in a straight-up savanna
> > > existence. The current thinking places our ancestors
> > > into a "mosaic." =A0Again, this is the sunject of a
> > > great deal of debate and on-going research.
>
> > Again, this does not affect my basic thesis. Some of our
> > ancestors obviously did leave the forests and a single
> > leader, be it male or female, makes sense. In the forest
> > where the escape route is the nearest tree for each
> > individual a single leader is not essential, but out in
> > open country the situation of a single leader would be the
> > most efficient and effective.
>
> okay. =A0I agree that it doesn't affect your basic thesis.
> =A0But purely for discussion, natural selection might argue
> that that single leader only survived "out there" because he
> or she could run faster, and not necessarily because of a
> better equipped social displacement. =A0He wasn't a
> leader... he was the least cooperative and ran away at the
> very moment when the weakest members needed him/her most.
>
> Having said that, it isn't really my personal belief.
> =A0Crying perhaps is a good indicator of how we evolved...
> or the situations in which we found our selves. =A0It is my
> belief that humans, or some earlier versions of humans,
> evolved in relatively safety. =A0How is a new mom suppose to
> hide her screaming baby from a hungry predator with sharp
> hearing? =A0This sort of indicates that we "had it easy" at
> various points in our evolution.
>
>
>
> > > -- I work with one year olds everyday, and I can say
> > > that they do indeed have language and a sense of humor.
> > > =A0(so, it isn't something that takes "years" to
> > > development... merely an editorial correction there).
> > > =A0Sure, it isn't an adult-type sense of humor, but it
> > > exists and is very active.
>
> > Calder, you have lost me here. I cannot recall saying that
> > children do not participate in actvities, be they physical
> > or verbal, of a humorous nature. In fact they laugh during
> > the "peeka-boo" game very early on in their development.
>
> oops.. my boo-boo... I misread this sentence:
>
> "As children initially lack language, and for many years the
> ability to act as free agents, the communicative aspect of
> the displacement activity is particularly important at this
> stage of our development." to mean that children don't have
> a sense of humor early on...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > I like your comparison to bonobos, in that they use sex
> > > as a stress reducer (displacement) in the same way,
> > > perhaps, that we use laughter. =A0Some would argue that
> > > WE use sex as a displacement! <smile>
>
> > Yep, and just an aside here, we might also view language
> > itself as a displacement behaviour as we can use
> > negotiations instead of violence and, of course, there is
> > the old Catholic confessional and
> > psychiatrists' couch.
>
> > Cheers
>
> > Basil
>
> <yes... grin> regards calder- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Calder,

my vision for man is somewhat bleaker than yours, although
it depends on ones world view. I have written a 100 stanza
poem in the style of Fitzgerald's Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam,
a kind of secular religion based on scientific possibility.
You'll find at:

http://basilhughhall.googlepages.com/iamakeeperoftheprimalegg

It is fully illustrated so it takes time to dowmload if
you pcs slow.

Cheers

Basil