Anybody tried upping fat/saturated fat?

[triplemom]

I ran across this, after starting Barry Groves book, Natural Health & Weight Loss. He promotes cutting carbs, but not replacing the carbs with more protein, just more fat. His recommend ratios are: carbs 10-15% of calories, protein 15-25% of calories, and fat 60-70% of calories. I was poking around yesterday and found this about James Hays, an endocrinologist in Delaware. The study was done some years ago, but he currently has a clinical trial going on that has the official title of: Effect of High Saturated Fat No Starch Diet vs. Low Saturated Fat, Low Trans Fat, High Fiber Diet on Weight Loss and Markers of Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Disease:

http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/10786a.htm

I'm considering trying something like this - it's totally goes against everything I learned in diabetic education, so it's kind of scary. I'm still working my way through Barry Groves' book, but the two concepts are very similar.

Anyway, I'm just throwing this out for comments/opinions/suggestions.

Incidently, since lowering my carbs back down, my blood sugars have responded nicely, with my 2-hour sugars running in the 120's-130's. When I was in diabetic education, I found that my "best" days were when I restricted carbs to about 50 and spread them out evenly during the day - I pretty much get my carbs from non-starchy vegetable sources.

[Rose1942]

Actually, the concept of mainstream 'diabetic education' is the thing that's scary, not the high fat diet! It's hard to accept if you have been through the brainwashing tactics of most clueless nutritionists who still point diabetics to high carb, low fat diets, but the truth is that high fat is way better for us than low fat. Low carbs + high fat is the way to go. High carb + low fat is what got us into trouble in the first place:)

If you have not read 'Good Calories, Bad Calories' by Gary Taubes, you should put that on your Must Read List. That book explains in wonderful detail how all of our nutrients are metabolized in the body, and why fat is good, carbs are bad. It may totally reverse your thinking, I know it did mine!

[triplemom]

You're right about the diabetic educators - they really messed with my head. When I came in with my log and my lovely blood sugars on 50 carbs or less, my dietician freaked out. She told me I had to have over 100 grams of carbs a day (or my brain would explode, I guess). Well, I tried her diet and upped my carbs to 30 per meal and 15 per snack like was suggested, and guess what happened to my blood sugars?!?!? Up, up, and away! Their solution was to send me to the doctor to get put on medication rather than cutting the carbs.....I guess I don't understand that.

I started the Taubes book once during all my diabetic crisis (that lasted a few months). I had so many people telling me contradicting information that I put it down. I'll have to pull it back out.

Incidently, my regular doctor gave me the 1200 calorie ADA diet (which averaged 100-200 grams of carbs per day). I looked at it and threw it in the garbage. I went to a new doctor, who was actually recommended by my diabetic educator, and she suggested the South Beach Diet and said we don't need all those carbs!!!! Talk about feeling confused....:daze:

[MizKitty]

I've been eating 70% fat, 5% carb and 25% protein for 19 months now, and my diabetes and other health issues just continue to improve. I've gotten off of 4 oral drugs and insulin eating this way.

I agree, it's what passes as diabetic education in this country that's really scary!

[Lottadata]

That "your brain needs 120 g of carbs" thing is such BS!

My brain is perfectly happy on a lot less. I published two books while eating under 70 g a day in 1998-2000. And I just finished another book, too, on no more than 80 a day.

So either I go into the Guinness Book of World Records for "most books written by a person without a brain" or someone needs to revisit that factoid.

[Korban]

That "your brain needs 120 g of carbs" thing is such BS!

My brain is perfectly happy on a lot less. I published two books while eating under 70 g a day in 1998-2000. And I just finished another book, too, on no more than 80 a day.

So either I go into the Guinness Book of World Records for "most books written by a person without a brain" or someone needs to revisit that factoid.

Sounds like a no brainer but still not sure you win that one. About 15 years ago I was Editor of a technical handbook. I authored about two-thirds of it myself, but I did not publish it - Marcel Dekker did. I suspect that I was drunk through about 80% of the writing phase due to boredom (that was my excuse anyway). In those days I had quite an affinity for Scotch whiskey. A year later I got better at making excuses - "you mean it is Tuesday?" /Korban breaks seal... Thank god the book has decent reviews, perhaps due to my high carb intake :) ... Today, I have an occasional Mic Ultra (2.6 g CHO), still miss the Scotch on occasion but it is not worth the liver/diabetes stress I think.

/smile

[Rose1942]

Triplemom, I had exactly the same experience as you did with the doctor (yep, the ADA diet) and the forthcoming appointment with the nutritionist. But I was lucky - on that same day I went to the public library, which happens to be next door to the doctor's office, and the gods must have been with me because there on the new non-fiction shelf was Gary Taubes' book. I didn't know a thing about it, but picked it up to see if it had anything in it about diabetes, since I was about to go to the stacks and look for diabetes books. Sure enough, I landed somewhere while flipping through the pages, and saw something about diabetes, so I just grabbed it. Good thing, because that book hasn't been on the shelf since, it is out all the time, so popular! If I had not first read that book, I would not have learned about Dr. Bernstein's book, and thus being led to low carbing and also to these forums. All 3 of those things combined have saved my diabetic life, I am convinced of that!

I ended up going to that nutritionist fully expecting that she would validate my (by now) resolve to do a very low carb diet, specifically Dr. Bernstein's. Well, she was absolutely against that - she said basically what your educator did - that I should have 30 to 40 gr. of carbs per meal. She would not be challenged, she would have nothing to do with low carb - it was all low fat for her, and plenty of grains and so on. About half way through the meeting I just started smiling a lot and nodding my head as if I was listening to her, but really I was thinking 'just get me outa here'. I cancelled the next appointment so she didn't get to see my log, too bad 'cause it was pretty impressive, as were my BG numbers.......

Happy Low Carbing!

[Korban]

Rose, you are wiser than I or certainly have more fortitude. Maybe I just prefer drama more but rarely could keep my mouth shut under the circumstance you describe above. For me at least, my "assertive" (read as a euphemism) nature always seems like the right mode at the time although it rarely accomplishes anything positive. Armed with a boatload of research papers and references and personal data usually won't help with people that are so much "smarter" than you and I. It is like - don't bother me with the facts, I already my mind made up... and who the hell are you anyway?

My A1c first of February was > 10%. My doc just handed me a pen and script for Lantus and said see you in 4 months. Thank god for Bernstein and all of you here. Once I finally got rid of the glipizide (read as hypos) and started titrating myself on the basal (with much help here) it has been a down hill ride. The past two weeks (with only basal insulin - and low carb, of course) I am averaging just under 95 mg/dl and only rarely have gone above 120 after meals. I hadn't felt good in a long time but today I feel as though I have taken a big step forward. Perhaps this has bought me a few years for which I am truly grateful. I could so easily have missed the boat or gone to that dietician of yours while uninformed... with my 240 - 330 bgs. I think it is Ralph or V that keeps saying we are responsible for treatment of our disease. He/she/they are so right...

Thanks,
/smile

[dancinbr]

Well a natural result of going low carb and reasonable protein is high fats.

The fact that I eat animal meat and eggs easily brings up the % fat.

I have tracked on many ocassions the % fat in my daily intake and it usually is around 60-70%.

Fat doesn't do anything to BG!!!

Carbs does.

The theory that fat is bad for you simply is not correct and will be proven over the next decade or so conclusively.

Carbs, carbs and more carbs are the enemy.

I don't believe all the hype about cholesterol either and that high fat affects your cholesterol. OK, I will give it about 5-10% impact, but the rest is genetic.

I have read several articles that keep popping up in my email about heart surgeons having done bypasses on many people through their career and 1/2 of their patients were thin and had "low" cholesterol readings.

So, we simply don't know.

But diabetes and carbs is a direct link.

Obesity and carbs is a direct link.

The crisis in USA began with the new food pyramid, which is another laugh if you read into how it came to be.

Oh well.

Enough venting.

I don't know if I helped, but you are doing the right thing going low carbs and a natural trade off after that is high fat and protein.

You probably can go low carb and low fat. That sounds like a vegetarian to me.

If that is your choice that probably works too.

Fat is stored energy. The body creates it to store energy for lean times; so just how bad can fat be?

Enough.

I am ranting now.

Ralph

[Lottadata]

Ralph,

Low carb and low fat is a really bad diet.

You end up eating only protein which in a person with diabetes will raise your blood sugar, and without fat you'll be hungry all the time, which will make it very hard to stick with the diet.

In an earlier edition of Bernstein he made the point that no one pours themselves a tall frosty glass of fat, because fat has that built in satiety effect.

And if it is vegetarian LC/LF diet, your protein will be mostly soy which is very tough on your thyroid.


I only lose weight when I hit that 70% fat level, assuming I keep calories where they need to be for my miniscule basal metabolic rate.

[Rose1942]

Korban I doubt that I am wiser than you, or anyone else in this place either. It was just that the woman annoyed me so that I decided I would get through the meeting, get whatever she did have to offer that I could find useful (ok, she explained the meter to me, etc) and never see her again. Wasn't in the mood for confrontation because she was one of these aggressive types that had absolute confidence in her protocol. Nothing will change her, she's like a machine. Why bother, lol.

She also told me some things that I knew were wrong - for instance, I hadn't been feeling well, likely due to having high blood sugars for who knows how long, yet she insisted that the only way I would improve my sugar was to excercise a lot (and of course eat low fat, but I said that already). When I told her that I would probably like to lose a little weight and improve my BG before taking on much excercise, she actually said 'WELL! You won't see any improvement until you start excercising at least 30 minutes a day, every day of the week. I work at a computer all day but I manage to get MY excercise on the weekends!"

She was wrong about that and it is not a good approach to a patient. It took me over a month to feel well enough to get out and walk more, and by now I am quite happy with my walking routine. My dogs love it too!

I am 65 - this chick is maybe 40. She has an attitute - wait til she is 65 (that is if she lives that long on her lousy high carb lows fat diet!!!)

Ok, done venting!!! :lol:

[Korban]

Hehe... you did great, I probably would have walked out or, somewhat analogous to triplemom - thrown her in the trash...

Time for me to relax and pour myself a tall frosty glass of fat - eemmmmm... I think I'll put a cherry on top. :lol:

/smile

[triplemom]

Hehe... you did great, I probably would have walked out or, somewhat analogous to triplemom - thrown her in the trash...

Actually, Korban, I just wanted to beat her with her rubber food! :bash:

You guys crack me up - I needed it today. It's been a very long day, but I stayed true to low carb! I even savored 2 squares of my 85% chocolate bar, which comes out to 2.8 grams of carbs and was well worth it.

Ralph, you can vent here anytime!

Rose, I pulled the Gary Taubes book back out and will do some reading this weekend. I'm trying to arm myself with as much information as possible!

It's about happy hour time here on the East Coast - time for that frothy glass of fat! :D

[Rose1942]

Triplemom, glad you got a chuckle today, we can always use a chuckle! And I agree - Ralph can vent anytime, he is always so nice even when venting (and ranting too!). I just had a piece of chocolate too - one of those little Dove dark choc pieces, I forget what they are in carb and sugar but I know that they are pretty low, and one doesn't bother me. I bite off the tinest little pieces and let them melt one at a time, man I can make that thing last 5 minutes! Now I have to wait a day or so for another one but that's ok, it will be worth it!

[waltc]

Triplemom
there's lots of good advice here. Let me just add that you should read Dr. Bernstein's book if you haven't yet.

As far a protein, Dr. Bernstein recommends no more than 80 grams per day. The rest is fat, and 30 g of carbs.

Also, try the "endangered species" chocolate bar with the black panther picture on the front. Very tasty. I also make hot chocolate with cocoa powder, splenda, and whipping cream.

good luck

[Korban]

Walt, thanks for bringing this up as I thik I am eating too much protein for weight loss purposes...

Bernstein calculates minimum protein requirements based on a persons "ideal" weight.
The latest edition of Bernstein recommends "In order to maintain muscle mass... at least (emphasis added by me) 1-1.2 g protein per kg of ideal body weight. [p.171]

Later [p.193] he states that "The average nonpregregnant sedentary adult with an ideal body weight of 150 lbs requires 11.5 ounces of high-quality protein food (i.e., 69 grams of pure protein) daily to prevent protein malnutrition." [69 grams works out to ~1g protein/kg of body mass ~ 150 lbs]

Therefore, based on the factors above, 69 - 80 grams of protein should be a minimum for a sedentary adult (nonpregnant) that has an ideal body weight of 150 lbs.

This leads into my question... I am obese at 201 pounds (BMI = 31), no longer sedentary :) , and my "ideal body mass" should be about 155 lbs (BMI = 23).

What should my protein intake be for my 155 lb "ideal weight" (even though I am 201 lbs atm)? a.) minimum of 70 g/day which might encourage better weight loss while still not losing muscle mass?...
or...
b.) since I am reasonably active should I be eating closer to 91 - 109 grams protein as the factor would dictate for a 201 pound person (in order to maintain muscle mass)?

I think the answer - for my theoretical ideal weight of 155 lbs (and for weight loss purposes) - is the 70 gram minimum number but I am not sure. Anyone know? I have been 'force' eating - perhaps in error - closer to the 90 - 100 g range.

Comments appreciated and Thanks
/wave

[dancinbr]

Rose, you are wiser than I or certainly have more fortitude. Maybe I just prefer drama more but rarely could keep my mouth shut under the circumstance you describe above. For me at least, my "assertive" (read as a euphemism) nature always seems like the right mode at the time although it rarely accomplishes anything positive. Armed with a boatload of research papers and references and personal data usually won't help with people that are so much "smarter" than you and I. It is like - don't bother me with the facts, I already my mind made up... and who the hell are you anyway?

My A1c first of February was > 10%. My doc just handed me a pen and script for Lantus and said see you in 4 months. Thank god for Bernstein and all of you here. Once I finally got rid of the glipizide (read as hypos) and started titrating myself on the basal (with much help here) it has been a down hill ride. The past two weeks (with only basal insulin - and low carb, of course) I am averaging just under 95 mg/dl and only rarely have gone above 120 after meals. I hadn't felt good in a long time but today I feel as though I have taken a big step forward. Perhaps this has bought me a few years for which I am truly grateful. I could so easily have missed the boat or gone to that dietician of yours while uninformed... with my 240 - 330 bgs. I think it is Ralph or V that keeps saying we are responsible for treatment of our disease. He/she/they are so right...

Thanks,
/smile

Hi Korban,

It was me.

I finally moved to a basal insulin. I tried everything over the course of the past year; my first year as a T2 diabetic. I should qualify that. I was diagnosed last March 2007, but I believe I was diabetic at least as far back as January 2006, but noone sounded the alarm.

Anyway, I find I do well with my basal insulin. When I keep my carbs low as in approaching 6-12-12 I can keep my peaks below 120-140 after one hour post prandial and then back close to 100 or under 2 hours post prandial.

However, if I want a few more carbs, I will use fast acting insulin Novolog to make sure those peaks stay below 120-140. As I get better my goal is to do my best to stay under 120 as well. Remember your meter is only within 10% accuracy from everything I have read and called on as well.

So, low carbing and LCing is a great way to control this diabetes. Perhaps, someday I will weigh 200-220 and my need for basal insulin will be reduced; we will see.

I also take a bunch of supplements such as chromium, niacin, magnesium, glucosamine with chondritin, natural cholesterol block, high potency multi-vitamin and mineral pill, b complex too. It is funny. My wife and I look at each other each morning as we bring out our bag of pills.

I also am controlling my high blood pressure with norvasc, avapro, fouresemide (mispell there for sure it is a diuretic) and potassium.

But heck, it keeps me ticking so far.

I am getting ready for a complete cardio vascular workup soon. I stress test the heart every five years. This time I want an echocardiogram as well as a cardiac catscan. We will see.

Modern medicine has definitely added years to my life starting at birth and upward and onward. The same is true for my wife who will be a one year lung cancer survivor this April 27, 2008. She quite accidentally found a very small nodule in her lung while having a heart workup which included the cardiac catscan, which also scanned all the way down to her hips and therefore "accidentally" spotted the cancer and probably saved her life.

So, I am balancing modern medicine with natural as much as I can.

Ralph

Ralph

[Korban]

Thanks Ralph,

You are so right it seems, as usual.

I have been thinking I would like to add some supplements other than my daily multivit. - especially the ones Bernstein emphasizes like the mag and calcium and some others. I am very familiar with furosemide as I used to have to take it a lot for my heart issue. Over the past year or so the beta blocker (Coreg) I have been taking has been a miracle drug and strengthened the heart muscle to where I almost never get fluid buildup. My exercising has made things even better.

I wish you well on your upcoming stress test as they are no fun and I send a heartfelt congratulations to your wife. Thank god for the timing of the heart catscan. Lung cancer, when diagnosed in most people (read as 'too late') does not generally yield a good prognosis. Sounds like the somewhat fortuitous discovery of the nodule in a heart scan speaks highly for the facility and the technician/Dr. Coincidence? We think not!

Have a nice day,
/smile

[Wifezilla]

Hi all,

While I am not diabetic, I was well on my way to a nice case of type 2 before I started low carb. Wild blood sugar swings (with impressive crashes), sky high blood pressure, etc...

Starting low carb has got my weight down 40 lbs and my bp from 149/95 to 101/62. I don't get the shakes and break out in a cold sweat anymore....hell I hardly sweat at all now! :D

Anyway, I love Barry Groves books and you can't go wrong following his plan. I am glad you have the Taubes book. That one is great too. Once you get that digested, nobody will be able to lead you off the low carb path :D

Whenever someone mentions the ADA diet, I think of two words....

WILFRED BRIMLEY!

Poor guy is a fat, bloated, red-faced, puffy mess! Yeah...follow the ADA if you want to look like him...and have another bowl of oatmeal while you are at it!

[Lottadata]

Korban,

I put together a protein need calculator based on the research cited in Lyle MacDonald's epic book, "The Ketogenic Diet."

It's at http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19058429.php

The significant piece of information found ONLY in Lyle's book is that your protein need is much higher the first 2 weeks you are on a very low carb diet, and that after that there is a change in your metabolism that reduces the amount of protein you need to eat to supply glucose to the brain. (Remember, 58% of protein can be converted into carb via the liver.)

[Korban]

Woot and thanks Jenny !

[Wifezilla]

I tried the calculator and it gave me the figure of 75.6. I have used other calculators and came up around 80....so sounds about right.

[dancinbr]

Korban,

I put together a protein need calculator based on the research cited in Lyle MacDonald's epic book, "The Ketogenic Diet."

It's at http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19058429.php

The significant piece of information found ONLY in Lyle's book is that your protein need is much higher the first 2 weeks you are on a very low carb diet, and that after that there is a change in your metabolism that reduces the amount of protein you need to eat to supply glucose to the brain. (Remember, 58% of protein can be converted into carb via the liver.)

Hi,

A little confused with protein calculator.

I pretty much agree with the results.

At 265 and having 40 grams of carbs per day and keeping around 1500-1600 calories per day results in needing 110 grams of protein.

This amounts to a diet that is 10% carbs, 28% protein and 62% fat.

What I am not fully understanding is the last statement at the bottom of the calculator about fat being converted to glucose 1g of glucose from 10g of fat?

Tell me more or send me to do some reading on this.

We are trying to keep our glucose from spiking above 120 and during normal non-eating times below 100.

What is the relationship of the reading of 100mg/dl to grams of glucose??

I will poke around more and learn more.

Thanks,

Ralph

[Korban]

Hi,

What I am not fully understanding is the last statement at the bottom of the calculator about fat being converted to glucose 1g of glucose from 10g of fat?

What is the relationship of the reading of 100mg/dl to grams of glucose??

Ralph

Based on a normal blood volume of 5 liters which according to Wilkipedia is typical, the quantity of glucose at a 100 mg/dl concentration yields the following:

100 mg/dl of glucose X [10 dl/L] X 5 L = 5000 mg = 5 grams (0.18 ounce)

For 5.7 liter volume --> 5.7 grams glucose, etc.

/smile

[Lottadata]

Ralph,

It turns out that your liver is able to turn 1/10 of the fat you eat into glucose if it has to. This is so tiny an amount that most people ignore it, though some Type 1s who are very sensitive to insulin might have to take it into account when computing their insulin need.

I wish I had a reference for this, but I don't as I have not done the kind of intense journal searching about diet issues as I have for diabetes and its treatments.

It is one of those things I read a couple places, though.

[dancinbr]

Based on a normal blood volume of 5 liters which according to Wilkipedia is typical, the quantity of glucose at a 100 mg/dl concentration yields the following:

100 mg/dl of glucose X [10 dl/L] X 5 L = 5000 mg = 5 grams (0.18 ounce)

For 5.7 liter volume --> 5.7 grams glucose, etc.

/smile
Thanks.

I believe larger people also have more blood in their system.

The typical person weighs about 150, right?

I got the idea though.

Thanks again.

Ralph

[triplemom]

Whenever someone mentions the ADA diet, I think of two words....

WILFRED BRIMLEY!

Poor guy is a fat, bloated, red-faced, puffy mess! Yeah...follow the ADA if you want to look like him...and have another bowl of oatmeal while you are at it!

Now that made me laugh....:lol:

[KiaKaha]

I cant say I am a weight loss success as I am still struggling to get any weight off (10lbs in 3 months). The cause of the not losing remains a mystery but along the way I have refined and changed and refined again.

Forgive me for not converting this but Lo-Carb got me down to 6.5 MMOL waking within a few weeks. 2 weeks ago, I took the plunge to eat another 1000 calories a day and higher fat and I have got my carbs down from 30.

My current daily totals are 80 - 83% Fat, 13 - 16% Protein and 3 - 5% Carbs. (20 - 25C). My waking BG has already dropped to 6.0 MMOL.

I lost 1lb last week (which at my weight isnt brilliant but a big improvement on the 1/2 lb in 3 weeks that I had before) and although I dont officially weigh until tomorrow, I think I will be down another 3/4 - 1 lb for this week.

I wish it was 4 - 5 lbs coming off but it is definitely better than 30C a day and 65% fat and lower calories. 2 other things I have noticed - I was getting hungry before I started this but now dont and I was having terrible mood swings (which I thought were related to low blood sugar but clearly werent as I am having less sugar) which seem to have also gone away.

I feel alert and energetic and the only downside I have noticed is - coldsores. I rarely get them but have had them most of the time since I started this higher fat regime. (I suspect that this is because of the high arginine quantities in the diet from a lot of eggs and red meat) Going to try the zovirax prophylactic? tablet and presume they will resolve.

I am off to the Doctor for a range of tests tomorrow to check out all my lipids and hba1c (and thyroid to see if the non weight loss answer is there) so I'll soon see the comparative results there as well.

After completing a course of homeobotanicals, I finally got all 3 liver enzymes within normal range and resolved the fatty liver that I have had for 9 months. (I mention this only because people will tell you, you cant have a fatty diet if you have a fatty liver).

I am interested to see the lipid results because a huge part of my diet is saturated fat (butter, coconut oil) and the rest monounsaturated fat (olive and avocado oil). Happy to share with you triplemom when I know whether they have improved or not.

[Lottadata]

KiaKaha,

Be prepared to see your lipids UP because you are actively losing weight and new to the diet. That is what happens to most people during the first couple months on a low carb diet. So if that is what you see, do not panic.

Also, pay attention to not the total LDL but the HDL and the triglycerides. The triglycerides should be much lower and HDL should be up a bit. If they are, you are doing fine.

That first cholesterol test and the resulting doctor hysteria derails more people than I'd like to remember. Long term the lipids usually improve greatly, but it takes at least 6 months on the new regimen to see the change.

I was very fortunate the doctor I had when I started low carbing a decade ago knew that lipids go up at first when you are actively losing weight on any diet.

[cappie]

Sorry but when I increased my fat I gained weight. After reading Taubes' book I tried his theories for a month & gained 10 lbs.

I am 70 yr old woman, 5 ft tall with very small frame & need so few calories to exist that even small increases lead to weight gain. My blood sugar is in complete control with around 50 carbs a day--very stable range of 70 to 110 & A1c at or near 5% all the time on 1000 (usualy less) Metformin. It is only the weight & constant hunger I have problems with. Fat makes me crave MORE FAT, only protein satisfies & quiets my hunger.

cappie